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As a German a.) I mostly pay cash because it's faster b.) some shops that can afford it only have cash payments to save on CC costs Not because of inflation
by _Codemonkeyism 9y ago
As a German
a.) I mostly pay cash because it's faster
b.) some shops that can afford it only have cash payments to save on CC costs
Not because of inflation or because something happend 100y ago.
- sparkling 9y agoAs a German a) I don't want to feed the Visa/Mastercard/Amex/Whatever leach earning a few cents of every transaction.
- wila 9y agoNot German, but I simply don't want to leave my trail of what I am spending and where.
- eatbitseveryday 9y agoAnd what of purchases made on websites?
- theEXTORTCIST 9y agoWas waiting for this comment. I often ask myself, "Do I want any entity to have a copy of the exact dates and amounts of my entire daily consumer activity?". Whether anonymized or not there is a tremendous amount of knowledge that can be gleaned from non-itemized debit card ledgers.
- 317070 9y agoI also think/thought like that. But if banks wanted, they could actually track the serial codes on the bills around. And since often cash is used in only 1 hop (so ATM -> you -> shop -> bank) they could know pretty well where you spent your money. A quick reference: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9948081 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9948081 E.g. about China: "According to schedule, by late 2015, the serial number of every Rmb100 note withdrawn from banks by members of the public can be traced."
- jhasse 9y ago> But if banks wanted, they could actually track the serial codes on the bills around. And since often cash is used in only 1 hop (so ATM -> you -> shop -> bank) they could know pretty well where you spent your money. That doesn't include how much you spend exactly. And it only works most of the time (what if my money gets used as change for another customer?).
- nostromo123 9y agoSame here. Also, been a couple of times in the situation where either the shop's card terminal was malfunctioning, or the bank had some issues, and the card payment was impossible. Without cash you'd be helpless in such a situation, whereas cash = power & independence.
- hocuspocus 9y agoIn 4 party schemes, most of the transaction fees don't actually go to Visa/MC.
- Sleeep 9y agoHandling cash is not free either, it also comes with transaction costs.
- herbst 9y agoBut it's money spent on my government and not some American companies. Huge difference IMO
- Sleeep 9y agoNo, the companies pay the cost of handling cash as well. There's the labor costs of handling cash - counting it, moving it, organizing it, accounting for it, making sure there's enough change to run a shift; the cost of storing and transporting it - safes, cash draws, key management, money transport/money transport companies; and the cost of loss due to theft, mistakes, and mismanagement. I'm not saying that the cost of cash is more than the cost of card, I'm simply saying its not anywhere near free. https://qz.com/123642/physical-money-costs-americans-more-than-200-billion-each-year-so-why-bother/ https://qz.com/123642/physical-money-costs-americans-more-th... >But new research from Tufts University aims to highlight the pain points of cash, where digital currency can break in. The use of physical bills costs US consumers, businesses and the government at least $200 billion each year—about $1,739 per household. Here are the main reasons why: >Small businesses don’t lose much money by operating cash-only. But larger businesses spend a significant amount of money dealing with cash—collecting it, sorting it and getting it to the bank without it being stolen. US businesses lose $40 billion a year to cash theft and loss, about 1% of total revenues. http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2017/02/02/cashless-coffee-shop/ http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2017/02/02/cashless-coffee-sho... (There's also a potential to increase sales by accepting card.)
- wott 9y agoNope.
- Sleeep 9y agoYep. https://qz.com/123642/physical-money-costs-americans-more-than-200-billion-each-year-so-why-bother/ https://qz.com/123642/physical-money-costs-americans-more-th... >larger businesses spend a significant amount of money dealing with cash—collecting it, sorting it and getting it to the bank without it being stolen. US businesses lose $40 billion a year to cash theft and loss, about 1% of total revenues.
- codegeek 9y agoAs an american, I find it strange that cash is faster. Most people who pay cash need to wait to get the change back unless they know the total beforehand and happen to have exact change. In the US, credit card machines are very fast even the chip enabled ones. Cash workflow: - Cashier tells you the total amount - You look in your wallet/purse - You spend time counting exact change if you do have it - If not, you take out a rounded bill/note (say $20) - Cashier takes the bill/note, punches in the register and then spends a few seconds giving you the change back. Credit card workflow: - Cashier tells you the total amount - You look in your wallet/purse - You swipe card/insert in chip reader - Done
- tylershuster 9y ago*Credit card workflow: - Cashier tells you the total amount - You look in your wallet/purse - You swipe card/insert in chip reader - You avoid making eye contact while the transaction is processed - (optional) The card reader fails and requests reinsertion. Repeat previous two steps - Done
- herbst 9y agoYou missed the part when they are in holidays in Europa or Asia and realize that American whatever credit card is usually not accepted and they begin shouting at everyone what kind of third world country this is. Disclaimer: I've seen exactly this a few times
- pantalaimon 9y ago> Credit card workflow: > - Cashier tells you the total amount > - You look in your wallet/purse > - You swipe card/insert in chip reader > - Done You forgot the part where you have to enter you PIN and wait for the transaction to go through, or sign the receipt.
- fleg 9y agoContactless payments don't need PIN (up to some small but comfortable amount) and go through almost instantly.
- Symbiote 9y agoAre contactless terminals widespread in Germany? On a short trip last month, I surprised a couple of merchants by paying contactlessly with my foreign (EU) card. That's almost always faster than paying by cash, since there's no need to count the money or make change. The exception is when the cost is €20, and I can hand over a single note.
- kekub 9y agoWe have them in all major brand stores, all gas stations as well as all big supermarkets. Depending on where you are people might not have seen wireless terminal usage (especially if you are far away from a bigger city). A cashier once tried to force me to sign the bill when I payed contactless without a pin or signature (which is possible in germany if the total is below 25-30€).
- gruturo 9y ago> Are contactless terminals widespread in Germany? They are absolutely everywhere since last year more or less, but everybody (esp. cashiers) is always dumbfounded when I use it and it works. Also some of them try to handle your card for you "to insert it in the right way" and since my German is still rather basic I then have to weigh the potential time waste of explaining it's a contactless card with the extra 4-5 seconds for the chip transaction. But I guess that part doesn't really apply to locals. ("kontaktlose karte, nicht einstecken" but they don't listen the first couple times)
- jahnu 9y agoStrange. In Austria it's pretty popular now. Some stores have fucked up the speed of it though by first checking for your store membership account on the card which ruins the flow of the transaction. Often forcing the whole thing to be repeated. It's infuriating.
- majewsky 9y agoI was actually pretty annoyed by my bank having issued me a contactless VISA card, but for a particular reason: I already have a contactless card for paying at the university canteen, but with the VISA card also in my wallet, neither the canteen's own terminal nor a merchant's VISA terminal can pick up its respective card's signal properly without having to take the card out of the wallet.
- stinos 9y agoNot German and I don't think there was ever such hyperinflation here, but same reasons basically. - fast enough - no problems with failing electronic payments of all kinds - more places where it works (electronic payment systems can indeed be an extra cost which matters for small businesses) - cash doesn't break (cards do) - still easier to transfer directly between people - pretty private
- kekub 9y agoAs a German a.) I mostly pay by credit card because it is way faster. By using paywave you can pay instantly at all larger shops and supermarkets. b.) The shops need to pay up to 1.7%. If you compare this against the time saved by not returning change and having to carry a money cassette every evening to their bank the saving potential is big. I try to not use cash anymore, but fail to do so in smaller shops or at the hair stylist.
- Jommi 9y agoDon't you guys have paywave for under 25e purchases? Its literally 5 seconds to pay for anything. Literally no one uses cash in Helsinki. I can even use my phone's NFC as a payment option.
- germanier 9y agoWe have and pretty much all supermarkets accept that. Doesn't mean that cashiers have even heard of it (even pointing to the huge signs advertising that at the register surprises some) or customers are aware of it. It doesn't help that the national debit card scheme Girocard hadn't had working contactless payment until recently (which is the type of card most customers use).
- hocuspocus 9y agoAs someone who lived two years in Germany a) That's a good joke. From faster to slower: NFC > PIN > signature > cash. b) You should look into the real cost of dealing with cash. EC is stupidly cheap since it's basically the cost of a SEPA direct payment (we're talking 1-2 cents per transaction). Debit card payments can also be pretty cheap in Europe. All those annoying restaurants and small shops that take only cash do it to dodge taxes, not for any other reason.
- killerpopiller 9y agoI also suspect tax avoidance rather than transaction costs
- bluGill 9y agoTransaction costs for cash is probably higher than for credit cards. For cash you have to count and recount that cash at the end of the shift, and then the bank counts are recounts it again. This is a significant amount of labor. By contrast with a card once the initial transaction is done everything is put into the computer electronically and no human has to look at it again. Also cash is subject to theft. In some locations this risk is a significant part of the transaction costs - not just the cash, risk of death in the robbery. Electronic payments are subject to loss, but generally there is a trail to chase when it happens, and the possibility of death is much less.
- kuschku 9y agoNot really. Until 2016, the costs were 30€/mo+0.125% for EC, 160€/mo+4% for VISA and MasterCard, 160€/mo+7.5% for AMEX in Germany. Most German merchants run on margins below 1-2%. Good luck paying 7.5% transaction fee on a margin of 1%. This is why EC was far more widely accepted, although even that was too expensive for small places, such as farmers selling stuff on the market.
- bluGill 9y agoNobody to my knowledge has every measures the costs of cash, it is just something they accept. With credit cards it is easy to measure because you get a number, but with cash it is not, you have to calculate too many different parameters and figure out what applies where.
- acchow 9y agoCash might be faster if you have to do Chip+pin. In most countries, we just tap to pay with NFC (except America, where this only works with Apple Pay or Google Wallet). This is most definitely faster than cash. You can actually go to any store and time it on real customers.
- Merem 9y agoGerman here as well: In addition to a.), I like having full control of my money and not be dependent on some third party when making purchases.
- nonsince 9y agoI recently moved from the Netherlands, where card is overwhelmingly favoured (at least in Amsterdam and Den Haag, I've never been somewhere that doesn't take card and some places refuse cash) to Berlin, which I think is even more pro-cash than most of Germany. Cash is way slower, and I've now got a couple euros' worth of coppers that are utterly worthless because no-one's going to bother counting them out. In the Netherlands the smallest denomination of cents is 5, but you could live for years there and not know, because almost everywhere takes card (and most machines support contactless).
- ATsch 9y agoMost larger bank locations have a machine you can just throw your copper into.
- djsumdog 9y agoIt is weird how Germany is still so cash based. Even younger kids will count out coins at grocery stories, and they're convinced it's faster than using a card (their cards do take a while). Most of their cities still use paper train tickets! Many cities are skipping the tap/card systems all together and going straight to phone apps (which I don't really like. My card will always validate if a ticket inspector comes on the train. My phone can run out of battery).
- johnnyfaehell 9y agoFor the most part, I would say paying by contactless is faster than paying in cash because you need to wait for the cashier to find the change for the cash you gave them. Then especially in Germany, people spend ages looking for really small change so if it's 19.64 they can give them 20.14 and get a 50 cent back. Where as contactless you tap the holder and that's it. Even paying by pin is generally faster. The only reason it's sometimes slower is if they use a German bank that wants a signature over the pin or the cashier doesn't know how to use the card machine. (I've had that once or twice in Rewe and Edeka)
- leokennis 9y agoI was on holiday in Germany. In The Netherlands I pay everything with my contactless debit card, where you hold it near the reader, wait 1 second and then you've paid. Every cashier in Germany (provided they accepted cards in the first place) insisted on "taking" my card, sticking it in the machine for a non-contactless payment, then hand me the machine so I can enter the PIN, then take back the machine, wait for the transaction to finish and then remove the card from the machine and hand me back my card. If that's the standard card-experience, I can imagine why you think cash is quicker... (At one shop I saw the machine accepted contactless; before the cashier could take my card I quickly paid contactless. The cashier was 50% flabbergasted and 50% upset and seriously doubted I actually paid, until the receipt rolled out to prove it).
- jhasse 9y agoBut ... what if you lose your card?? I guess Germans are generally very precautious and wouldn't trust contactless debit cards.
- sliverstorm 9y agoWell, cards can be canceled and fraudulent payments reversed. The same can't be said of cash.
- gregmac 9y agoThis is also why I prefer using credit over debit cards: with credit, a fraudulent transaction (before being cleared) is merely decreasing my available funds (and because I generally pay off my balance monthly, this has zero impact on my life). With debit, the money comes out of my account, and only once a fraud investigation is complete do I get my money back. Contactless cards also typically have a per-transaction limit in the area of $100~$200, so the amount of damage someone can do without the PIN and before you cancel the card is quite limited. I actually wouldn't be surprised if you do too many transactions in a certain period of time it would ask you to do a PIN transaction.
- pimeys 9y agoThen again finding a working Sparkasse ATM in Berlin is always something you have to plan to do a couple of times every week, or then you must carry lots of money with you. Again I owe to my colleague for my lunch because I forgot to pick money in the morning.