14 ms·

Autism and gender imbalance in tech

155 points by imartin2k 9y ago

hibbelig 9y ago
> Try to spot the bottom figure within the coloured diagram. So if I spot it then what does it tell me about the spectrum?
- bradknowles 9y ago
  And what if I can't find it, yet I know that I'm in that spectrum?
  - jdoliner 9y ago
    That probably speaks to Baron-Cohen's point about it being a constellation rather than a linear spectrum.
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  - celticninja 9y ago
    Know that a simplistic test is not good enough to diagnose such a complex area of neuroscience.
- sghjksgdkjh 9y ago
  > So if I spot it then what does it tell me about the spectrum? Depends. Did you spot the rotated versions too? What do you want it to say about you?
  - pvaldes 9y ago
    Why should spot all? The question was not "count all versions of this form". Only find the picture. One time. Moreover, this is a skill related with spatial intelligence and finding patterns, not with autism.
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- gopalv 9y ago
  > So if I spot it then what does it tell me about the spectrum Probably nothing - except that you don't see a box in perspective, looking at the diagram below, the "shape" synthesis in your brain might be different. Your mind isn't taking the "box" below as a 3-d box in perspective automatically, which is what a filtered perception should have (just enough detail to be useful, not enough to overwhelm you). If you, like me - see a square and two parallelograms instead, it becomes trivial to ignore the colours guiding your eyes on the top image. Yellow square ... yeah. Red blue parallelogram to the top right of it, yeah ... Whether you perceive reality as a mixture of abstract shapes or whether your brain smoothes over it to form meaningful structures (like a box) is relevant to autism (one assumes). Reassembling fragments of perception is a very well exercised part of my brain, because it is necessary for me to operate - but beyond that, it gets easier to reshuffle them before reassembling, which is what this is test is about. It is a test of being "mentally bilingual - reality and perception", which is necessary to overcome being somewhere on the spectrum and be functional.
chippy 9y ago
(2017)
iagovar 9y ago
So... what is the proposal? Every time I read one of this articles about gender in IT I feel that I didn't get to anything new. This guy tell us that it is because companies look for certain profiles more common in men. Ok, cool, I'm totally fine with it, but I don't think that will be appealing to all this people that is talking about discrimination against women.
- jdoliner 9y ago
  > True diversity may be the recognition of the fact that all of us are not equal. The proposal is that we recognize this fact, and realize that the mindset in which there must always be "the proposal," to fix "the problem," is misguided. Particularly when you have ideals like diversity, and equality which, the author argues, are at odds with one another. The rest of the essay is an argument that the two are, indeed, at odds with one another.
- tajen 9y ago
  All those people telling me that boys and girls have the same interest in tech, and clichés is all that keeps girls from reaching their potential... - Doesn't match with my observations of girls around me. My goddaughter was educated in a sexist way (barbies) by her mother. Men (me) have tried to interest her in tech, but what do you want! I'm not the role model! I can tell you it's been immensely frustrating for me to spend hundreds on Lego, take her to superfactories, make her visit workshops, teach her math and chemistry, and she still $&@" identifies to her "I don't get science" mother. Men are powerless here. Plus I still get told off as a machist by HN. - Doesn't match with logic either. Women can get a job in IT and be promoted to passionating human jobs like management, just by participating in "I'm a woman" programs. Why would they work on their skills? Every single woman I've met in programming was utterly incompetent in technical skills because they weren't selected on their technical skills. So, yes, it's a bit painful when they're promoted as your manager "because [insert hand-wavy reason like people skills]". The worsts parts are: - I've done my part in being feminist in the early years of my career, and I'm unanimously recognized for the scientific education of my goddaughted despite the other directions given by the 7 women around her; - And despite that, it's forbidden for me to discuss the reality I'm facing (=what's above) on social networks, including HN. I expect to be censored in a few minutes, but I'll wait for dang's actual actions to demonstrate what will happen to me. In real life, after I started recognizing the pattern that women are not competent when they're hired based on gender, I've been fired from a few places. So, this misogyny problem that belongs to my parents' generation? We're reproducing it. And I know I'm not alone, because, when I say it with careful respect, facts and fewer generalizations, I get a dozen upvotes. Future won't be nice with this censorship.
shp0ngle 9y ago
> this
cbhl 9y ago
This is a false dichotomy, and derailing from the conversations about women in tech. Even the most generous estimates of autism prevalence put it at 1-3% of children -- you could hire every man and woman with autism and it would have an entirely negligible effect on gender diversity in the tech workforce at large. On top of that, if you take ten people with autism spectrum disorder, not all of them will end up getting jobs at Google and SAP. And of the ones that do, the women with autism have to deal with both the barriers introduced by their autism and the barriers of sexist treatment from their peers.
- acover 9y ago
  The tech industry is only 2% of the US population. [0] The US also imports people from the entire world. [0] - https://www.comptia.org/about-us/newsroom/press-releases/2015/02/10/united-states-tech-industry-employs-6.5-million-in-2014 https://www.comptia.org/about-us/newsroom/press-releases/201...
- smitherfield 9y ago
  1. "Even the most generous estimates of autism prevalence put it at 1-3% of children -- you could hire every man and woman with autism and it would have an entirely negligible effect on gender diversity in the tech workforce at large." You need to check your math here; on the order of 1% of the US population works in software development. 2. It's called the "autism spectrum" because it's a spectrum, not a binary. People can share some autistic traits without their rising to the level of a diagnosable disorder. If a person is described as nerdy, introverted and eccentric, they probably are further along on the autistic spectrum than most, while not necessarily having full-blown autism.
  - dghf 9y ago
    > It's called the "autism spectrum" because it's a spectrum, not a binary. People can share some autistic traits without their rising to the level of a diagnosable disorder. If a person is described as nerdy, introverted and eccentric, they probably are further along on the autistic spectrum than most, while not necessarily having full-blown autism. I thought it was called a spectrum because of the variation in severity and symptoms among people with diagnosable autistic disorders. As I understood it, if you don't have such a disorder, you're not on the spectrum.
Mz 9y ago
But the big statistic is that autism in all of its forms is around four times more common in males than females. In other words the genetic components have a biologically sex-based component. Does this account for the fact that women tend to be underdiagnosed? I have read that female autistics are very often a) not diagnosed and b) pressured to learn social skills anyway simply because they are girls. PS: I am a girl. I could spot the bottom figure in the top, though it took me a few seconds. I have an unusually strong math background for a girl (perhaps especially a girl my age). I think it is ridiculous this is a test for autism. Why on earth is this is a test for autism? I am pretty darn sure I am not autistic. My ex husband and both our sons probably all are and I taught all of them a lot of the social skills they have. My ex husband once told me that he was good at the technical aspects of his job, but his ability to manage people once he was promoted to that level in the military was largely rooted in what he learned from being married to me.
- chillacy 9y ago
  Took me a few seconds too, but I didn't think to rationalize it as "though it took me a few seconds", I thought "wow gee I got it in only a few seconds".
  - Mz 9y ago
    Assuming you are male, that may be the real sex difference: Girls aren't supposed to be good at anything, they apologize for not being "good enough" even when they perform as well as the guys and then if they are excellent, no one believes them. (I think this is literally true, but it is intended as sort of humorous observation so maybe imagine there is a winky here and interpret that to mean "look, this is an injoke of sorts!")
    - Grustaf 9y ago
      "Girls aren't supposed to be good at anything" I don't think anyone at all is claiming that. At most people are claiming that girls are better at verbal and emotional skills, while boys are better at visio-spatial things.
dna_polymerase 9y ago
> What this implies is that to expect a 50:50 outcome is hopelessly utopian. And why exactly do we need a 50:50 ratio of women to men in IT? I don't care who writes my code as long as it does what I want it to do.
- ambulancechaser 9y ago
  the 50:50 ratio is taken to mean there are no inhibitions or advantages for one or the other as this is the rough ratio of male to female in the general population. The skew of the ratio can be read as there are some factors we aren't seeing. So the question isn't "why do we need this ratio" but "why isn't this ratio present?" No one cares who writes their code either, but certainly we can agree that if there are systematic reasons preventing women from participating as much we can try to remove them?
  - OtterCoder 9y ago
    But why is it even a goal? I don't think the world is any better or worse off for having any particular ratio of genders in tech. Just let the cards fall as they will.
    - strictnein 9y ago
      Similarly, if this is such an urgent goal, why are we not seeing an even more strident push to even the genders in roles where direct human interaction occurs, like teaching and nursing? If different genders offer such a unique perspective in tech, surely that perspective is even more important in teaching our youth or caring for the sick.
      - dghf 9y ago
        The fall in numbers of male teachers is causing concern, at least in the UK: - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-37552056 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-37552056 - https://www.teachingtimes.com/news/primary-schools-male-teachers.htm https://www.teachingtimes.com/news/primary-schools-male-teac... - https://www.theguardian.com/education/2009/mar/23/male-teachers-primary-schools https://www.theguardian.com/education/2009/mar/23/male-teach...
geofft 9y ago
> Why are there so few women in IT? ... > This is because they are good at localised skills, especially attention to detail. This is very useful in lab work, coding and IT. IT is not the entirety of tech by any means. And if we're going to make large stereotypes, a bulk of IT work is about empathizing with users at least as much as attention to detail. Coding is not the entirety of tech, either. Knowing what to code is more important than knowing how to code it. It may not have been, decades ago, but a significant amount of the code that people need has already been written and the challenge is to find it and deploy it / integrate the library / fork the open-source project / etc. An engineer that prefers to write code for the sake of writing code is generally not productive for the business (and probably counterproductive, by generating what will soon be legacy code). I'm not sure what "lab work" means here but I've never seen that term applied to software engineering. Also, autism is not the only way to be detail-oriented. The article is trying to claim that there's gender imbalance in autism, and autistic people are detail-oriented, and detail-oriented people are good at IT, and therefore there should be gender imbalance in IT. This is simply fallacious and illogical. Autistic people are not your shield.
- therebedragons 9y ago
  I think we need to follow your thought process through to conclusion: > "a bulk of IT work is about empathizing with users at least as much as attention to detail." HYPOTHESIS: If autism is useful for code, but not all IT is code related, there will parts with LESS code reliance, and MORE empathy reliance, and therefore different gender ratios. FALSIFIABILITY: If the boring, code-only gigs - programming switches and embedded systems, DNS etc - have the same male/female discrepancy, or are less male dominated, than empathy related tech gigs like UX, web design and graphic design, the hypothesis is false. (NB: The opposite won't PROVE the idea, but it certainly is an indication there is something there). Best I can find: https://www.dol.gov/wb/stats/occ_gender_share_em_1020_txt.htm https://www.dol.gov/wb/stats/occ_gender_share_em_1020_txt.ht... and https://www.wgea.gov.au/sites/default/files/Gender-composition-of-the-workforce-by-occupation.pdf https://www.wgea.gov.au/sites/default/files/Gender-compositi... and neither answered the question. I'd be rather happy to see an answer here, anyone else have any ideas on how to get such stats?
bem94 9y ago
I don't understand why so many discussions about this in the context of engineering / software jump to the idea that diversity is just have 50:50 of characteristic X and characteristic Y. Or why everyone makes assertions about what we know to be a very important and divisive issue without first stating what our own understanding of the words we are using actually is. I think I have a very different idea of what equality and diversity means to this person (or that soon to be ex-googler), so I'd like the opportunity to talk about it with them, reach the same page of understanding, then talk some more. In my view, it isn't as simple as 50:50 men and women in the room. It's about removing all barriers to that being a possibility that we can. Specifically, making sure we all have the same equality of opportunity, burdens of expectation and freedom of expression. Recognising some groups lack one or more of those things is a good start. Recognising some groups (deliberately or accidentally) monopolize those things to the detriment of others is a better start. I guess people will bend further to justify the status quo than they will to better it.
- cristianpascu 9y ago
  Diversity seems to be just a slogan these days. There's few contexts where gender, ethnicity or race really matter as specific traits to bring to the table. And I wonder if human empathy is not sufficiently capable of overcoming those differences. I mean, me as a white male, should I expect that a black woman can not design a product for me because she doesn't somehow get what it is like to be white or male? Why would the reverse be true in any way?
  - in_cahoots 9y ago
    It's not that you can't design a product, it's that you may not even think of the special considerations required. For example: think of facial recognition apps that fail for dark-skinned people, or apps that aren't usable by the visually impaired or colorblind. Cars, mirrors, and countertops that are inconvenient for people of below-average (male) height. Nobody is purposefully excluding these people in these cases, but nobody is going out of their way to be inclusive either.
    - 9y ago
prophesi 9y ago
Tip for the diagram in the article: Look for just one of the shapes that comprises the bottom figure in the top figure, and you've found it. The front face is the easiest to spot.
- greenyoda 9y ago
  That's how I found it too, and that suggests to me that this is more of a test of problem-solving heuristics than of perception at the neurological level. Someone who has solved a lot of math problems in geometry would seem to have a distinct advantage in finding that hidden shape.
nebulous1 9y ago
Well, at least he gave equal time to both of the viewpoints.
projektir 9y ago
Interesting assumptions that always seem to be present: - autism is good for fields related to technology; - other differences are not as good for fields related to technology; - fields related to technology are the most valuable.
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mempko 9y ago
Programming is about people not code. Great software helps people and communities. Knowing how to write code is a tiny part of the job.
- habitue 9y ago
  Saying programming isn't about code is ... insane? Maybe you can be a programming manager without knowing how to code, kind of? You'll likely be a bad one. This is the kind of thing you say after you've been coding for such a long time that you've forgotten how challenging it is to learn to code for most people. Sure, once coding is not the main challenge, you move onto new challenges like coordination, collaboration etc. But if you can't code, then you aren't a programmer. More concretely: Managing communities and collaboration is neither necessary nor sufficient to be a programmer. Coding is necessary to be a programmer.
  - mempko 9y ago
    I agree. Don't misunderstand me, all great artist know how to use a paintbrush. Very few will tell you it's all about the paintbrush. Focussing on people who know how to sling code is like focusing on the carpenters who have great hammering skills. Knowing how to code great is necessary but not sufficient to make great software.
OtterCoder 9y ago
So, autism diagnosis is based on whether or not you can parse an optical illusion? What kind of over-diagnosis fad-medicine quackery is this? When did personality types become diseases? Sure, there are some people with real mental illness who need help to function in society, but I think it's actively harmful to slap a pathology on someone who's not as sociable as others in a moderate way.
rosstex 9y ago
Am I supposed to see the shape or not? If I take the shapes separately yeah I can tell the shape exists, but my mind can't really "see" a 3D object there.
- hackinthebochs 9y ago
  The 3D shape is there
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- thinkingemote 9y ago
  I didn't see the image. I saw a flattened out pattern, like a paper craft template from which to make a 3d model. It was only reading the comments several hours later that I realised what I should have been looking for.
sudosteph 9y ago
Weird blog post. He never really attempts to answer his own question of if gender imbalance is a good thing. He just seems to be making the point that autism is imbalanced in sex distribution, and engineering is appealing to autistic people, so the imbalance in engineering is expected due to autism. FWIW, as a woman on the autism spectrum myself, I actually kind of agree that some level of imbalance is due to this. But people on the autism spectrum make up such a small population of humans and software engineers (we are over-represented compared to other industries, but in my experience we are still very much a minority overall) that it cannot be nearly enough to account for the sex-imbalance numbers we see today. Anecdotally, I've convinced two NT (neurotypical) women to switch from bio/chem degrees to CS (they are both software engineers now) and the reason they hadn't considered before was b/c nobody ever talked to them about it. Neither grew up playing video games (though one said she asked for a console and the parents put it in her brother's room for them to "share") and there weren't any mandatory programming classes, so they just were never exposed to it as an option, even though they are both highly logical people (thus the chem or bio degree paths before switching). So I guess I'm still firmly in the "Its a pipeline problem" camp. Until we account for cases like the ones above, tech is going to lose out on some talented women, and some of those women will miss out on tech. I think mandatory high school programming and networking classes are what will really help.
- jasode 9y ago
  >, I've convinced two NT (neurotypical) women to switch from bio/chem degrees to CS (they are both software engineers now) and the reason they hadn't considered before was b/c nobody ever talked to them about it. [...] Until we account for cases like the ones above, tech is going to lose out on some talented women, Wouldn't that anecdote also apply to men? E.g. We take 2 men currently in bio/chem and talk to them about switching to CS which had never occurred to them? Therefore, does the "uncounted" men cancel out the women "missing in the compsci pipeline"?
  - oddlyaromatic 9y ago
    Wait could there really be two nerdy dudes interested in complicated stuff who never saw themselves as possibly working with computers? Like how could they have avoided the countless examples of famous male computer-related millionaires? Do you think, if there are such dudes, there are as many of them as there are women who never thought of themselves as "technical" or whatever? That seems really daft.
PlugTunin 9y ago
FWIW, the diagram wasn't intended to be a TEST to determine if one is autistic. It was a test to indicate one's inclination for noticing certain detail. Indeed, as another comment states, girls have historically been under diagnosed with autism, for a variety of reasons. (That's not to say males aren't more likely to have the condition.) Simply put, employers need to do a better job of ensuring that those with talents (some female, some autistic, some minority, etc.)-- who are under represented in IT, are given fair opportunity to put their talents to use. I wouldn't get too caught up in worrying about how giving opportunities to one group takes away from another. We're all on the same team. It's not too different from how Affirmative Action (which I support) has its place in society. Also, I was confused by the constellation bit. The spectrum descriptor is quite apt and just as generally accepted in the community as the idea that it's genetic in basis...well, unless you're an anti-vax kook. I've only heard the term constellation in the sense of describing the various symptoms. (As the adage goes, if you've met one person with autism, you've met one person with autism...no two are alike.) I'm actually in the middle of reading Steve Silberman's Neurotribes, which I would highly recommend to anyone who wants to know more about autism. (Contrary to what the article says, Sasha Baron-Cohen (of Borat fame) is the cousin, not brother, of famed autism researcher Simon Baron-Cohen.) - Guy w/ Asperger's
- projektir 9y ago
  > We're all on the same team. I don't think this will go over well for as long as we're in a highly competitive society.
wcr3 9y ago
Why share this? It's minimal-effort baiting; a few paragraphs of vague opinions and a "once you see it..." gimmick to boot. Not a good start to an important conversation.
- tonto 9y ago
  The hackernews re-titling of the article is pretty horrendous too. The title is "Is gender inequality in technology a good thing?" is considerably more controversial than "autism and gender imbalance in tech"
gweinberg 9y ago
"This was followed by an altogether different talk by Professor Simon Baron-Cohen (yes – brother of)" No he isn't. They're cousins, not brothers.
chrismealy 9y ago
90% of graduates from law schools and medical schools are also men, so it's safe to assume there are some fundamental biological sex differences at work here. Oh wait, it's not 1970 anymore, and law and med grads are half women nowadays. Golly humans evolve quickly.
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Animats 9y ago
The funny thing is that programming has become more male-dominated as it has become more social. Programmers once worked alone, in their own offices, coding quietly with occasional references to manuals. Now programmers are expected to work on laptops alongside other workers, constantly interact with others both on line and off line, and be active on at least LinkedIn, GitHub, and Slack. We're missing something here.
stared 9y ago
While autism spectrum traits are correlated with STEM (http://crastina.se/autistic-traits-science-and-the-nerd-stereotype/ http://crastina.se/autistic-traits-science-and-the-nerd-ster...), I don't think it explains shortage of women in programming (there isn't in biology or medicine; these departments are places with many nerdy girls). 1. Not all engineers or scientists are even remotely autistic (think: Richard Feynman). 2. There are some big suggestions that women are underdiagnosed with Asperger Syndrome / High-Functioning Autism (due causing less problems for others, and their socialization giving them at least "passable" social skills).

155 points by imartin2k 9y ago

> Try to spot the bottom figure within the coloured diagram. So if I spot it then what does it tell me about the spectrum?

bradknowles 9y ago
And what if I can't find it, yet I know that I'm in that spectrum?
- jdoliner 9y ago
  That probably speaks to Baron-Cohen's point about it being a constellation rather than a linear spectrum.
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- celticninja 9y ago
  Know that a simplistic test is not good enough to diagnose such a complex area of neuroscience.
sghjksgdkjh 9y ago
> So if I spot it then what does it tell me about the spectrum? Depends. Did you spot the rotated versions too? What do you want it to say about you?
- pvaldes 9y ago
  Why should spot all? The question was not "count all versions of this form". Only find the picture. One time. Moreover, this is a skill related with spatial intelligence and finding patterns, not with autism.
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gopalv 9y ago
> So if I spot it then what does it tell me about the spectrum Probably nothing - except that you don't see a box in perspective, looking at the diagram below, the "shape" synthesis in your brain might be different. Your mind isn't taking the "box" below as a 3-d box in perspective automatically, which is what a filtered perception should have (just enough detail to be useful, not enough to overwhelm you). If you, like me - see a square and two parallelograms instead, it becomes trivial to ignore the colours guiding your eyes on the top image. Yellow square ... yeah. Red blue parallelogram to the top right of it, yeah ... Whether you perceive reality as a mixture of abstract shapes or whether your brain smoothes over it to form meaningful structures (like a box) is relevant to autism (one assumes). Reassembling fragments of perception is a very well exercised part of my brain, because it is necessary for me to operate - but beyond that, it gets easier to reshuffle them before reassembling, which is what this is test is about. It is a test of being "mentally bilingual - reality and perception", which is necessary to overcome being somewhere on the spectrum and be functional.

chippy 9y ago

(2017)

iagovar 9y ago

So... what is the proposal? Every time I read one of this articles about gender in IT I feel that I didn't get to anything new. This guy tell us that it is because companies look for certain profiles more common in men. Ok, cool, I'm totally fine with it, but I don't think that will be appealing to all this people that is talking about discrimination against women.

jdoliner 9y ago
> True diversity may be the recognition of the fact that all of us are not equal. The proposal is that we recognize this fact, and realize that the mindset in which there must always be "the proposal," to fix "the problem," is misguided. Particularly when you have ideals like diversity, and equality which, the author argues, are at odds with one another. The rest of the essay is an argument that the two are, indeed, at odds with one another.
tajen 9y ago
All those people telling me that boys and girls have the same interest in tech, and clichés is all that keeps girls from reaching their potential... - Doesn't match with my observations of girls around me. My goddaughter was educated in a sexist way (barbies) by her mother. Men (me) have tried to interest her in tech, but what do you want! I'm not the role model! I can tell you it's been immensely frustrating for me to spend hundreds on Lego, take her to superfactories, make her visit workshops, teach her math and chemistry, and she still $&@" identifies to her "I don't get science" mother. Men are powerless here. Plus I still get told off as a machist by HN. - Doesn't match with logic either. Women can get a job in IT and be promoted to passionating human jobs like management, just by participating in "I'm a woman" programs. Why would they work on their skills? Every single woman I've met in programming was utterly incompetent in technical skills because they weren't selected on their technical skills. So, yes, it's a bit painful when they're promoted as your manager "because [insert hand-wavy reason like people skills]". The worsts parts are: - I've done my part in being feminist in the early years of my career, and I'm unanimously recognized for the scientific education of my goddaughted despite the other directions given by the 7 women around her; - And despite that, it's forbidden for me to discuss the reality I'm facing (=what's above) on social networks, including HN. I expect to be censored in a few minutes, but I'll wait for dang's actual actions to demonstrate what will happen to me. In real life, after I started recognizing the pattern that women are not competent when they're hired based on gender, I've been fired from a few places. So, this misogyny problem that belongs to my parents' generation? We're reproducing it. And I know I'm not alone, because, when I say it with careful respect, facts and fewer generalizations, I get a dozen upvotes. Future won't be nice with this censorship.

shp0ngle 9y ago

> this

cbhl 9y ago

This is a false dichotomy, and derailing from the conversations about women in tech. Even the most generous estimates of autism prevalence put it at 1-3% of children -- you could hire every man and woman with autism and it would have an entirely negligible effect on gender diversity in the tech workforce at large. On top of that, if you take ten people with autism spectrum disorder, not all of them will end up getting jobs at Google and SAP. And of the ones that do, the women with autism have to deal with both the barriers introduced by their autism and the barriers of sexist treatment from their peers.

acover 9y ago
The tech industry is only 2% of the US population. [0] The US also imports people from the entire world. [0] - https://www.comptia.org/about-us/newsroom/press-releases/2015/02/10/united-states-tech-industry-employs-6.5-million-in-2014 https://www.comptia.org/about-us/newsroom/press-releases/201...
smitherfield 9y ago
1. "Even the most generous estimates of autism prevalence put it at 1-3% of children -- you could hire every man and woman with autism and it would have an entirely negligible effect on gender diversity in the tech workforce at large." You need to check your math here; on the order of 1% of the US population works in software development. 2. It's called the "autism spectrum" because it's a spectrum, not a binary. People can share some autistic traits without their rising to the level of a diagnosable disorder. If a person is described as nerdy, introverted and eccentric, they probably are further along on the autistic spectrum than most, while not necessarily having full-blown autism.
- dghf 9y ago
  > It's called the "autism spectrum" because it's a spectrum, not a binary. People can share some autistic traits without their rising to the level of a diagnosable disorder. If a person is described as nerdy, introverted and eccentric, they probably are further along on the autistic spectrum than most, while not necessarily having full-blown autism. I thought it was called a spectrum because of the variation in severity and symptoms among people with diagnosable autistic disorders. As I understood it, if you don't have such a disorder, you're not on the spectrum.

Mz 9y ago

But the big statistic is that autism in all of its forms is around four times more common in males than females. In other words the genetic components have a biologically sex-based component. Does this account for the fact that women tend to be underdiagnosed? I have read that female autistics are very often a) not diagnosed and b) pressured to learn social skills anyway simply because they are girls. PS: I am a girl. I could spot the bottom figure in the top, though it took me a few seconds. I have an unusually strong math background for a girl (perhaps especially a girl my age). I think it is ridiculous this is a test for autism. Why on earth is this is a test for autism? I am pretty darn sure I am not autistic. My ex husband and both our sons probably all are and I taught all of them a lot of the social skills they have. My ex husband once told me that he was good at the technical aspects of his job, but his ability to manage people once he was promoted to that level in the military was largely rooted in what he learned from being married to me.

chillacy 9y ago
Took me a few seconds too, but I didn't think to rationalize it as "though it took me a few seconds", I thought "wow gee I got it in only a few seconds".
- Mz 9y ago
  Assuming you are male, that may be the real sex difference: Girls aren't supposed to be good at anything, they apologize for not being "good enough" even when they perform as well as the guys and then if they are excellent, no one believes them. (I think this is literally true, but it is intended as sort of humorous observation so maybe imagine there is a winky here and interpret that to mean "look, this is an injoke of sorts!")
  - Grustaf 9y ago
    "Girls aren't supposed to be good at anything" I don't think anyone at all is claiming that. At most people are claiming that girls are better at verbal and emotional skills, while boys are better at visio-spatial things.

dna_polymerase 9y ago

> What this implies is that to expect a 50:50 outcome is hopelessly utopian. And why exactly do we need a 50:50 ratio of women to men in IT? I don't care who writes my code as long as it does what I want it to do.

ambulancechaser 9y ago
the 50:50 ratio is taken to mean there are no inhibitions or advantages for one or the other as this is the rough ratio of male to female in the general population. The skew of the ratio can be read as there are some factors we aren't seeing. So the question isn't "why do we need this ratio" but "why isn't this ratio present?" No one cares who writes their code either, but certainly we can agree that if there are systematic reasons preventing women from participating as much we can try to remove them?
- OtterCoder 9y ago
  But why is it even a goal? I don't think the world is any better or worse off for having any particular ratio of genders in tech. Just let the cards fall as they will.
  - strictnein 9y ago
    Similarly, if this is such an urgent goal, why are we not seeing an even more strident push to even the genders in roles where direct human interaction occurs, like teaching and nursing? If different genders offer such a unique perspective in tech, surely that perspective is even more important in teaching our youth or caring for the sick.
    - dghf 9y ago
      The fall in numbers of male teachers is causing concern, at least in the UK: - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-37552056 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-37552056 - https://www.teachingtimes.com/news/primary-schools-male-teachers.htm https://www.teachingtimes.com/news/primary-schools-male-teac... - https://www.theguardian.com/education/2009/mar/23/male-teachers-primary-schools https://www.theguardian.com/education/2009/mar/23/male-teach...

geofft 9y ago

> Why are there so few women in IT? ... > This is because they are good at localised skills, especially attention to detail. This is very useful in lab work, coding and IT. IT is not the entirety of tech by any means. And if we're going to make large stereotypes, a bulk of IT work is about empathizing with users at least as much as attention to detail. Coding is not the entirety of tech, either. Knowing what to code is more important than knowing how to code it. It may not have been, decades ago, but a significant amount of the code that people need has already been written and the challenge is to find it and deploy it / integrate the library / fork the open-source project / etc. An engineer that prefers to write code for the sake of writing code is generally not productive for the business (and probably counterproductive, by generating what will soon be legacy code). I'm not sure what "lab work" means here but I've never seen that term applied to software engineering. Also, autism is not the only way to be detail-oriented. The article is trying to claim that there's gender imbalance in autism, and autistic people are detail-oriented, and detail-oriented people are good at IT, and therefore there should be gender imbalance in IT. This is simply fallacious and illogical. Autistic people are not your shield.

therebedragons 9y ago
I think we need to follow your thought process through to conclusion: > "a bulk of IT work is about empathizing with users at least as much as attention to detail." HYPOTHESIS: If autism is useful for code, but not all IT is code related, there will parts with LESS code reliance, and MORE empathy reliance, and therefore different gender ratios. FALSIFIABILITY: If the boring, code-only gigs - programming switches and embedded systems, DNS etc - have the same male/female discrepancy, or are less male dominated, than empathy related tech gigs like UX, web design and graphic design, the hypothesis is false. (NB: The opposite won't PROVE the idea, but it certainly is an indication there is something there). Best I can find: https://www.dol.gov/wb/stats/occ_gender_share_em_1020_txt.htm https://www.dol.gov/wb/stats/occ_gender_share_em_1020_txt.ht... and https://www.wgea.gov.au/sites/default/files/Gender-composition-of-the-workforce-by-occupation.pdf https://www.wgea.gov.au/sites/default/files/Gender-compositi... and neither answered the question. I'd be rather happy to see an answer here, anyone else have any ideas on how to get such stats?

bem94 9y ago

I don't understand why so many discussions about this in the context of engineering / software jump to the idea that diversity is just have 50:50 of characteristic X and characteristic Y. Or why everyone makes assertions about what we know to be a very important and divisive issue without first stating what our own understanding of the words we are using actually is. I think I have a very different idea of what equality and diversity means to this person (or that soon to be ex-googler), so I'd like the opportunity to talk about it with them, reach the same page of understanding, then talk some more. In my view, it isn't as simple as 50:50 men and women in the room. It's about removing all barriers to that being a possibility that we can. Specifically, making sure we all have the same equality of opportunity, burdens of expectation and freedom of expression. Recognising some groups lack one or more of those things is a good start. Recognising some groups (deliberately or accidentally) monopolize those things to the detriment of others is a better start. I guess people will bend further to justify the status quo than they will to better it.

cristianpascu 9y ago
Diversity seems to be just a slogan these days. There's few contexts where gender, ethnicity or race really matter as specific traits to bring to the table. And I wonder if human empathy is not sufficiently capable of overcoming those differences. I mean, me as a white male, should I expect that a black woman can not design a product for me because she doesn't somehow get what it is like to be white or male? Why would the reverse be true in any way?
- in_cahoots 9y ago
  It's not that you can't design a product, it's that you may not even think of the special considerations required. For example: think of facial recognition apps that fail for dark-skinned people, or apps that aren't usable by the visually impaired or colorblind. Cars, mirrors, and countertops that are inconvenient for people of below-average (male) height. Nobody is purposefully excluding these people in these cases, but nobody is going out of their way to be inclusive either.
  - 9y ago

prophesi 9y ago

Tip for the diagram in the article: Look for just one of the shapes that comprises the bottom figure in the top figure, and you've found it. The front face is the easiest to spot.

greenyoda 9y ago
That's how I found it too, and that suggests to me that this is more of a test of problem-solving heuristics than of perception at the neurological level. Someone who has solved a lot of math problems in geometry would seem to have a distinct advantage in finding that hidden shape.

nebulous1 9y ago

Well, at least he gave equal time to both of the viewpoints.

projektir 9y ago

Interesting assumptions that always seem to be present: - autism is good for fields related to technology; - other differences are not as good for fields related to technology; - fields related to technology are the most valuable.

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mempko 9y ago

Programming is about people not code. Great software helps people and communities. Knowing how to write code is a tiny part of the job.

habitue 9y ago
Saying programming isn't about code is ... insane? Maybe you can be a programming manager without knowing how to code, kind of? You'll likely be a bad one. This is the kind of thing you say after you've been coding for such a long time that you've forgotten how challenging it is to learn to code for most people. Sure, once coding is not the main challenge, you move onto new challenges like coordination, collaboration etc. But if you can't code, then you aren't a programmer. More concretely: Managing communities and collaboration is neither necessary nor sufficient to be a programmer. Coding is necessary to be a programmer.
- mempko 9y ago
  I agree. Don't misunderstand me, all great artist know how to use a paintbrush. Very few will tell you it's all about the paintbrush. Focussing on people who know how to sling code is like focusing on the carpenters who have great hammering skills. Knowing how to code great is necessary but not sufficient to make great software.

OtterCoder 9y ago

So, autism diagnosis is based on whether or not you can parse an optical illusion? What kind of over-diagnosis fad-medicine quackery is this? When did personality types become diseases? Sure, there are some people with real mental illness who need help to function in society, but I think it's actively harmful to slap a pathology on someone who's not as sociable as others in a moderate way.

rosstex 9y ago

Am I supposed to see the shape or not? If I take the shapes separately yeah I can tell the shape exists, but my mind can't really "see" a 3D object there.

hackinthebochs 9y ago
The 3D shape is there
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thinkingemote 9y ago
I didn't see the image. I saw a flattened out pattern, like a paper craft template from which to make a 3d model. It was only reading the comments several hours later that I realised what I should have been looking for.

sudosteph 9y ago

Weird blog post. He never really attempts to answer his own question of if gender imbalance is a good thing. He just seems to be making the point that autism is imbalanced in sex distribution, and engineering is appealing to autistic people, so the imbalance in engineering is expected due to autism. FWIW, as a woman on the autism spectrum myself, I actually kind of agree that some level of imbalance is due to this. But people on the autism spectrum make up such a small population of humans and software engineers (we are over-represented compared to other industries, but in my experience we are still very much a minority overall) that it cannot be nearly enough to account for the sex-imbalance numbers we see today. Anecdotally, I've convinced two NT (neurotypical) women to switch from bio/chem degrees to CS (they are both software engineers now) and the reason they hadn't considered before was b/c nobody ever talked to them about it. Neither grew up playing video games (though one said she asked for a console and the parents put it in her brother's room for them to "share") and there weren't any mandatory programming classes, so they just were never exposed to it as an option, even though they are both highly logical people (thus the chem or bio degree paths before switching). So I guess I'm still firmly in the "Its a pipeline problem" camp. Until we account for cases like the ones above, tech is going to lose out on some talented women, and some of those women will miss out on tech. I think mandatory high school programming and networking classes are what will really help.

jasode 9y ago
>, I've convinced two NT (neurotypical) women to switch from bio/chem degrees to CS (they are both software engineers now) and the reason they hadn't considered before was b/c nobody ever talked to them about it. [...] Until we account for cases like the ones above, tech is going to lose out on some talented women, Wouldn't that anecdote also apply to men? E.g. We take 2 men currently in bio/chem and talk to them about switching to CS which had never occurred to them? Therefore, does the "uncounted" men cancel out the women "missing in the compsci pipeline"?
- oddlyaromatic 9y ago
  Wait could there really be two nerdy dudes interested in complicated stuff who never saw themselves as possibly working with computers? Like how could they have avoided the countless examples of famous male computer-related millionaires? Do you think, if there are such dudes, there are as many of them as there are women who never thought of themselves as "technical" or whatever? That seems really daft.

PlugTunin 9y ago

FWIW, the diagram wasn't intended to be a TEST to determine if one is autistic. It was a test to indicate one's inclination for noticing certain detail. Indeed, as another comment states, girls have historically been under diagnosed with autism, for a variety of reasons. (That's not to say males aren't more likely to have the condition.) Simply put, employers need to do a better job of ensuring that those with talents (some female, some autistic, some minority, etc.)-- who are under represented in IT, are given fair opportunity to put their talents to use. I wouldn't get too caught up in worrying about how giving opportunities to one group takes away from another. We're all on the same team. It's not too different from how Affirmative Action (which I support) has its place in society. Also, I was confused by the constellation bit. The spectrum descriptor is quite apt and just as generally accepted in the community as the idea that it's genetic in basis...well, unless you're an anti-vax kook. I've only heard the term constellation in the sense of describing the various symptoms. (As the adage goes, if you've met one person with autism, you've met one person with autism...no two are alike.) I'm actually in the middle of reading Steve Silberman's Neurotribes, which I would highly recommend to anyone who wants to know more about autism. (Contrary to what the article says, Sasha Baron-Cohen (of Borat fame) is the cousin, not brother, of famed autism researcher Simon Baron-Cohen.) - Guy w/ Asperger's

projektir 9y ago
> We're all on the same team. I don't think this will go over well for as long as we're in a highly competitive society.

wcr3 9y ago

Why share this? It's minimal-effort baiting; a few paragraphs of vague opinions and a "once you see it..." gimmick to boot. Not a good start to an important conversation.

tonto 9y ago
The hackernews re-titling of the article is pretty horrendous too. The title is "Is gender inequality in technology a good thing?" is considerably more controversial than "autism and gender imbalance in tech"

gweinberg 9y ago

"This was followed by an altogether different talk by Professor Simon Baron-Cohen (yes – brother of)" No he isn't. They're cousins, not brothers.

chrismealy 9y ago

90% of graduates from law schools and medical schools are also men, so it's safe to assume there are some fundamental biological sex differences at work here. Oh wait, it's not 1970 anymore, and law and med grads are half women nowadays. Golly humans evolve quickly.

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Animats 9y ago

The funny thing is that programming has become more male-dominated as it has become more social. Programmers once worked alone, in their own offices, coding quietly with occasional references to manuals. Now programmers are expected to work on laptops alongside other workers, constantly interact with others both on line and off line, and be active on at least LinkedIn, GitHub, and Slack. We're missing something here.

stared 9y ago

While autism spectrum traits are correlated with STEM (http://crastina.se/autistic-traits-science-and-the-nerd-stereotype/ http://crastina.se/autistic-traits-science-and-the-nerd-ster...), I don't think it explains shortage of women in programming (there isn't in biology or medicine; these departments are places with many nerdy girls). 1. Not all engineers or scientists are even remotely autistic (think: Richard Feynman). 2. There are some big suggestions that women are underdiagnosed with Asperger Syndrome / High-Functioning Autism (due causing less problems for others, and their socialization giving them at least "passable" social skills).