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Cheap Beijing Flights With a Dangerous Catch

• greenyoda 9y ago
  Companies like this have been around for years, and whenever I read about them I'm surprised that people would risk going to prison (or worse) just to get a discounted air fare. I wouldn't even carry a package for a friend unless I could see exactly what was inside, let alone carry a suitcase full of unknown stuff for a total stranger. Also, an inevitable question when going through security checkpoints in some countries is "did you pack your own luggage". I assume that if you answer "no", you'd be subjected to a very thorough search for bombs or contraband. Calling a company "Airmule" seems to be a particularly bad choice, since the term "mule" is commonly used to denote a person who carries smuggled drugs (sometimes concealed inside their body).
  • rl3 9y ago
    >Calling a company "Airmule" seems to be a particularly bad choice, since the term "mule" is commonly used to denote a person who carries smuggled drugs (sometimes concealed inside their body). No kidding. One has to wonder how the founders can't be aware of that. Perhaps it was intended as a tongue-in-cheek name?
    • greenyoda 9y ago
      Perhaps it was. But security and customs officers aren't known for their great sense of humor, so it's probably best to stick with names that don't suggest drug trafficking.
      • rl3 9y ago
        I agree completely. In fact, I'd wager every time customs hears the name it's bound to trigger further scrutiny, even if subconsciously.
      • madeofpalk 9y ago
        Side note: Just a few days ago I flew domestically within Australia just a week after some anti-terror arrests and increased security screening (which has since been lifted). As my bag went through it got flagged and the security officer flagged the aerosol can. I was already pretty nervous already, so I apologise profusely for the mistake. Turns out the security officer was just a Regular Person, claimed deodorant cans are his "bread and bitter" and had a little chuckle as he found it in my toiletries bag.
        • gtirloni 9y ago
          What airport security had to say about a regular person impersonating security agents?
          • JadeNB 9y ago
            > What airport security had to say about a regular person impersonating security agents? I initially read madeofpalk's comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14940680 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14940680) as it seems that you might have, so that it seemed to say that the supposed security agent was not actually a security agent; but a second reading suggests that the meaning is instead that, in addition to being a security agent, the person in question was a Regular Person, and had a sense of humour. Repeated readings still do not reveal whether an Australian security agent referring to something as his "bread and bitter" is a typo or intentional. :-)
            • matt4077 9y ago
              A bread & bitter is a typical Australian breakfast of stale bread and (when available) an anise liquor. It's derived from the continental "existentialist breakfast" of a black coffee, cigarette, and Aspirin–but had to be adapted due to the bad availability of commercial products in the past, as well as the higher activity levels the Australian bush requires and the resulting danger of a breakfast completely devoid of calories.
              • jonah 9y ago
    • DonHopkins 9y ago
      If they wanted a tongue in cheek name, they should have called it RectalExpress.
    • sorokod 9y ago
      Perhaps to allow self selection to do its thing and interact only with those stupid enough.
    • ptero 9y ago
      I remember an article at WSJ years ago on how many startup founders choose such tongue in cheek / humorous names and how that is almost always a bad choice. But calling this airmule is insane. On the risks, I wonder if making the person carrying an extra bag the temporary owner of it (and showing him the packing of the luggage) so he can always say no would help making it safer for the user. But I personally would never do this even in this setup.
    • notahacker 9y ago
      If I'd have wanted to satirise the worst elements of the "gig economy" and SV founders' wilful exploitation of grey areas in laws, I'd probably have bought the domain name Airmule and set up a Smuggling As A Service marketplace. Of course, to make it a bit more obviously a Very Bad Idea and not just a neat little hack I'd focus my "areas of operation" on a country which executes drug smugglers and gives no preferential treatment whatsoever to naive Western backpackers whose parents and embassies can get them good lawyers. I'm still hoping they're not actually in operation and this is just a PR stunt to promote their actual business of selling Chinese Visa arrangement services (also on the website), but I'm not holding out too much hope.
      • skinnymuch 9y ago
        Hah this would make for a great satire site with that domain name. Or maybe not. Clearly it wouldn't have gone far enough since this seems real.
    • pkulak 9y ago
      Airmule is people?
    • pkaye 9y ago
      Maybe change the company name to "Brokedown Palace"?
    • x0x0 9y ago
      Customs officials are well known for their senses of humor.
  • futhey 9y ago
    This was my first thought. If you don't want people to think they're doing something shady, don't call them mules..
    • 2muchcoffeeman 9y ago
      Doesn't have to be shady. "Hey guy, please bring these South East Asian fruit to Australia for my family". Lack of knowledge of local laws could cause you some headaches.
      • cerved 9y ago
        Next up on Australian border patrol
      • vazamb 9y ago
        No shit. A friend of mine brought an apple from Sydney to Perth. 500 dollar fine. Yes, from within Australia to another place in Australia.
        • wfunction 9y ago
          What in the world? Why is this?
          • rangibaby 9y ago
            Diseases in one part of the country could spread to another. Australia and NZ have strict biosecurity because their isolation means they missed out on a lot of diseases that affect produce and animals in other parts of the world.
          • jpatokal 9y ago
            Western Australia is separated from farms in the rest of the country by ~1000 km of desert, meaning there are various pests in the rest of the country that they don't want to see introduced, and thus enforce strict quarantine measures: https://www.agric.wa.gov.au/importing-animals/quarantine-wa-border-checkpoints https://www.agric.wa.gov.au/importing-animals/quarantine-wa-... FWIW, California also has agricultural quarantine measures, they're just much more half-assed.
  • 2muchcoffeeman 9y ago
    This is the first I heard of such a thing. I honestly can't believe anyone would agree to such a thing.
    • Symbiote 9y ago
      It used to be very common, but improved routes from FedEx/DHL etc and increased security have ended the business. https://www.gonomad.com/6364-air-courier-flights-have-lost-their-appeal https://www.gonomad.com/6364-air-courier-flights-have-lost-t... http://courierlist.com/ http://courierlist.com/ -- which has an announcement from 2005 saying the discounts aren't worth it any more!
    • rwmj 9y ago
      Back in the 90s I knew people who would fly back to Japan carrying parcels, in return for reduced tickets (not $99 though, but it might have been £300 instead of £400). I always thought it was kind of sketchy, but as I understand it what was carried were documents, and no one I know ever got into trouble.
    • vermontdevil 9y ago
      When I flew to Amsterdam in 95, guy next to me had a career as a courier for Ford and GM (I flew from Detroit). He mostly brought over specialized tooling parts for engineering depts in US and Europe. Always a carry on he says to prevent theft. He was in his 60's back then but said he's been doing this for a number of years and got to travel the world. I guess these companies still do it.
      • planteen 9y ago
        It happens in the space industry too. I've never seen a dedicated career courier, but rather someone who worked on the project handles it. It's useful when the project is late and the person csn head out for the flight immediately without any shipping company time overhead.
  • whazor 9y ago
    Chinese people are always taking 1001 gifts back and forth. They will never run out of luggage space.
  • hamburglar 9y ago
    I started a similar company where the shipments were all carried inside balloons in the "courier's" gastrointestinal tracts, and for some reason that didn't work out either.
    • imron 9y ago
      No ones going to want stolen cheeseburgers that have been smuggled in someone else's gastro intestinal tract. That kind of venture was doomed from the start.
  • edanm 9y ago
    "Also, an inevitable question when going through security checkpoints in some countries is "did you pack your own luggage". I assume that if you answer "no", you'd be subjected to a very thorough search for bombs or contraband." Yeah, but that's actually probably not the biggest problem here. A thorough search for bombs is just that - a thorough search. Some people are selected randomly for this kind of search. Unless you're actually carrying a bomb (and that is one thing this company does say it protects against), then you shouldn't have to worry about this. (Although all the other things said against them seem exactly right to me, so I'm not in any way endorsing them.)
    • madeofpalk 9y ago
      I always suspected if you answer 'no' to that question then they'll just refuse to check the luggage.
      • ptaipale 9y ago
        I always suspected there's a lot more than just that. Basically, an intensified inspection and whatever follows from the findings.
        • madeofpalk 9y ago
          If they allow you to continue flying that is.
          • ptaipale 9y ago
            Of course they inspect first, for as long as it takes, and whether your flight goes without you is secondary.
  • deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
    • switch007 9y ago
      "to a willing person, injury is not done...is a common law doctrine which states that if someone willingly places themselves in a position where harm might result, knowing that some degree of harm might result, they are not able to bring a claim against the other party in tort or delict." For those who didn't study Latin or law :p
      • FRex 9y ago
        I didn't study law or Latin but the amount of time I see this BS online and offline (usually translated though) is astonishing. It's a very good principle for dangerous professions, bets, stun artists, boxers, etc. but not for average people as these crazy "free market" people try to apply it. Jail time in China is not a reasonable risk to be expected from being a client of a legally operating company selling cheap tickets where your luggage space is "rented out".
      • tajen 9y ago
        Ah. Maybe the best to protect the consumer would be to rename it AirGoat or AirDarwinAward. More seriously, the people using those services will probably be from a too poor background to come across this blog, and don't have the education to understand what's happening to them. Social class discrepancies at its finest.
        • FRex 9y ago
          It's became communist (or facist, or anti-capitalist or unpatriotic or whatever the buzz word insult of the week is) in some circles to have an ounce of humanity and empathy and to dare to suggest that not all humans are completely equal in the opportunities they have and access to all the necessary information so they might make poor decisions and it's not entirely their fault.
        • briandear 9y ago
          The lower classes don’t typically just jump on airplanes to China. It also isn’t like this company is putting flyers on the local community center bulletin board recruiting AirMules. You still have to get visas, accommodation and such. This business is targeting the young and stupid not the poor and uneducated.
  • tajen 9y ago
    I wouldn't even carry luggage for my wife or my mother, even if traveling with them. My mother once said "We haven't had problems with my morphine when we visited China (She's old and suffers from hip arthrosis). Actually I had put half in your dad's luggage, in case they lost mine." My dad wasn't happy, especially at how casual she sounded. She didn't even carry the doctor's ordinance. Most people don't understand the risks of being abroad.
    • SoftwareMaven 9y ago
      I had to take narcotics into Dubai for a health issue I was facing at the time. You can bet I had the clearly marked prescription bottle with the minimum amount I needed for my trip along with a note from my doctor explaining the medication. The medication was always accompanied by those, too. As screwed up as drug laws are in the US, they are child's play compared to what some countries have. And once they think that you might be trafficking, you are in for a bad day.
  • GreaterFool 9y ago
    If I were to sign up for this I would make it clear that it is not my luggage. In fact it is the first thing I would say to the airport staff: that I'm carrying this package on behalf of this company and everything is supposed to be arranged an in order. If anything is off and airport security would decide to confiscate / disallow the package, that is not my problem. I'd shrug and say "do what you've got to do". It's the Airmule's responsibility to make sure that whatever papers need to be filed are filed.
    • camillomiller 9y ago
      I think that it can't work like that. Checked bags are tied to your ticket, so you're responsible for them.
    • paganel 9y ago
      >It's the Airmule's responsibility to make sure that whatever papers need to be filed are filed. As the article says, it doesn't work like that in countries like China (and I suppose it doesn't work like that in many other countries). You're 100% responsible for the package you're carrying unless this happens: > One of those exceptions is to be the authorized representative of a “common carrier.” These are companies like FedEx, UPS, or DHL, or the airlines themselves So, as the article says, if someone decides to fill your bag with heroin up to the top Airmule will have nothing to do with it, the death-sentence will be all yours.
      • ptaipale 9y ago
        In fact, it doesn't work like that in any country. For a good reason, when you come to think of it. What you bring in to the country is yours, you can't escape responsibility except by becoming a freight company which is then subject to entirely different responsibilities (and lack of rights).
      • gus_massa 9y ago
        > it doesn't work like that in countries like China It doesn't work also in countries like USA. (I think we agree.) And it doesn't work in other countries where the security is not so tough like Argentina. [Hi from Argentina!] It's not exactly the same case, but ... from: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/10/magazine/the-professor-the-bikini-model-and-the-suitcase-full-of-trouble.html?pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/10/magazine/the-professor-the... > [...] but when he arrived at the airline counter, he was greeted by several policemen. Asked to identify his luggage — “That’s my bag,” he said, “the other one’s not my bag, but I checked it in” [...]
  • smoyer 9y ago
    I agree completely - I also wonder how long a visible and poorly named company can get away with this since the airlines typically offer "counter-to-counter" freight service that uses their position as a common carrier to shield them from liability. AirMule is performing an arbitrage since the price difference is making them a profit but the airlines can't be happy about it whether or not the practice has been quietly going along for decades.
  • ivanbakel 9y ago
    The target market might be people who otherwise would never be able to afford the fare, and therefore consider the discount worth the risk. If you don't have the personal wealth to travel, I can imagine that this kind of opportunity would be very attractive.
    • tkfu 9y ago
      That's kind of the heart of what's wrong with it. People generally agree, for example, that it was a good thing when we banned the practice of selling ones' self into indentured servitude. It is almost certainly true that indentured servitude was "worth the cost/risk" for some of the people who signed up, but we make it illegal anyway because it sets up a situation where people are likely to be exploited. Same goes for, for example, selling kidneys.
  • skinnymuch 9y ago
    Hah. The name being a bad choice no matter how tongue in cheek it is, is the first thing that came up for me too. I hastily wrote a comment before seeing your top comment brings this up too. There is no way your company name should be this tongue in cheek about something that can be as serious as international drug smuggling. At worst they should've got the domain name and made it a marketing landing page for their actual company. Not use Airmule as their actual company name.
  • randyrand 9y ago
    Why not just open the package and inspect it yourself? Then reseal it? It seems like you would get in way less trouble for opening a package given to (and you're not even a common carrier so does the non-opening law apply?) you than getting caught trafficking drugs.
  • Exuma 9y ago
    Seriously ... lol. What a BAD name. They should just call it the Escobar Courier Service
• wjnc 9y ago
  I cringe when I read such Trumpian tweets from a founder. The journalist reached out a few times and the response was unclear. So he writes his piece with a pretty clear warning to future customers. Get your PR and compliance straight if you want to avoid such pieces, don't complain afterwards while calling names. Caveat emptor. Just those responses are a red flag, if the subject is legal risk surrounding smuggling to PRC. They don't want you to know.
  • curiousgal 9y ago
    >The journalist So journalists conduct their interviews in 140-character messages nowadays? I can't help but agree with the co-founder that hit-pieces should be based on actual interviews, not a Twitter conversation, ff we're going to consider this as journalism of course. If it's just amateurish blogging then I guess that would pass.
    • chii 9y ago
      how hard is it for the founder to answer a yes or no question over twitter? Dodging it by saying they are like other OBC is basically an admission that they aren't legally protecting their carriers. If they had made known that they don't claim legal liability _at all_, then i would be fine with their service.
      • StavrosK 9y ago
        How hard is it for the author to say "I'm writing a piece on you and would like some clarification on some points"? He never told them he was writing a piece and gave them a chance to read it or comment, AFAICT.
        • FRex 9y ago
          I see, schrödinger companies. The answer to a question (that isn't any company secret but a simple question) is totally different depending on you being a client vs. being a journalist.
• jimjimjim 9y ago
  If you can't answer a yes no question without wishy-washy flim-flam pr doublespeak then you don't get to complain that an article doesn't have facts. and while i'm ranting. what is with founders presenting them selves as "bro's at the bar"? If the founders had bios that looked like they were from upper management at ibm i might be more likely to use their service.
  • em3rgent0rdr 9y ago
    Maybe they aren't trying to people like you, who are likely smart enough to know this service is highly suspect. Maybe they are trying to appeal to the average "bro".
    • jimjimjim 9y ago
      that's a possibility, maybe they are trying to present a persona that will resonate with a particular type of person that will try to 'beat the system' without considering risks. (although I have seen different places with 'about us' pages that look like a frat.)
      • gaius 9y ago
        They don't just need "mules", they need people with packages to send, they're whose paying for this after all. So whatever company persona would need to appeal to them too - if this were deliberate.
        • Klover 9y ago
          You can simply have a different front that looks like your average courier service. Call that front Airline Express, where you would try to look professional and trustworthy. Kind of similar to how Nestle has brands that appeal to different groups instead of calling everything Nestle.
      • chii 9y ago
        so you're saying they are trying to get suckers to take all the risk (unknowningly), and profit off that themselves!
• Animats 9y ago
  It's significant that the business is about shipments from the US to China. That seems to be hard. Getting stuff shipped from China to the US seems to be ridiculously easy and fast. You can order stuff off Alibaba and get fast delivery via China Packet, which is a postal service with really good rates for China to the US. Delivery in the US is via the USPS. The other direction is much more expensive and slower. The US needs to renegotiate postal rates with China. China is still getting the "developing country" discount from the USPS.
  • kobeya 9y ago
    > China is still getting the "developing country" discount from the USPS. I thought imports from China was cheap because it was subsidized by the PRC?
    • mft_ 9y ago
      I remember reading that USPS loses money on every cheap Chinese package - it's a legacy agreement IIRC.
      • Symbiote 9y ago
        It's the international agreement under the Universal Postal Convention. There's a good summary here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9794971 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9794971
        • mft_ 9y ago
          Thanks :) Think it was this that I saw (on HN, and as posted above): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14651884 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14651884
    • CaliforniaKarl 9y ago
      The answer is more complicated... https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/storyline/wp/2014/09/12/the-postal-service-is-losing-millions-a-year-to-help-you-buy-cheap-stuff-from-china/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/storyline/wp/2014/09/12/... ... and was actually posted here not too long ago! https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14651884 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14651884
• marcosscriven 9y ago
  I can just see it at the airport. "Did you pack your bags yourself?". I guess at 40 I'm not the target audience for this, but I'd be worried a younger person trying to save money might end up paying a high price. The name 'airmule' doesn't do it any favours either.
• kaishiro 9y ago
  I find responses like those given from the co-founder here infuriating for some reason - far more so than I realistically should. I've always valued transparency when it comes to business, so when I see people dancing around straight answers and then lashing out when people take issue with said responses it just seems so remarkably childish.
  • exergy 9y ago
    I sympathise entirely. Perhaps unwarranted, but this causes /r/punchablefaces levels of infuriation in me. The author of the blog post wrote a very level headed opinion piece, was perfectly polite even on twitter, and certainly didn't call anyone "lame". By contrast, the founder comes off as an overgrown child looking to get rich quick.
    • netsharc 9y ago
      The founder should team up with Ja Rule and make a music festival on a remote island...
  • icelancer 9y ago
    >far more so than I realistically should I doubt your anger is out of bounds. We are talking about potential - likely, even - smuggling of illegal goods into a country that has a human rights record that is... less than stellar. And their co-founder is childish and speaks in twisted words to try and avoid the truth. I'd say your anger is very well-placed.
• blisterpeanuts 9y ago
  When I was studying in Taiwan in the early 80s, the island's high tariffs motivated travelers to carry suitcases full of stuff--Walkmans, cameras, Italian shoes, etc. Contact a guy in Hong Kong, he gives you a bag, a guy in Taipei picks it up and gives you NT5000, enough to pay for your ticket. I never got up the courage to try it myself, but friends did. My girlfriend did it once. Looking back, I realize how exceedingly stupid this was. Had there been heroin inside that camera, you were going to prison for the rest of your life. They didn't (and still don't) screw around. I heard all sorts of stories. An Australian backpacker was caught at Korean customs with 50 Rolex watches stuffed in his shirt. He was sent up for ten years. Numerous young Americans and Europeans busted for drug smuggling were rotting in prison in Taiwan, Korea, and Japan. At the time, with these countries technically allied with us against Red China, execution was not a politically feasible alternative. This Mule thing is just another respin of an old practice. Best to avoid.
  • e12e 9y ago
    I've always thought the best way to get a bomb on a plane, was to bribe someone in the crew to smuggle drugs for you (and then give them a bomb that looked like a package of drugs). This takes things to a whole new level - you could get people to smuggle anything for next to nothing, if you packed in something else. Or, get them to blow up a plane they're on.
• icbm504 9y ago
  I like the idea but in the world we live in (post 9/11), it is a major security violation.
• asdfologist 9y ago
  Risk of a death penalty for accidentally smuggling heroin? They couldn't pay me to take this flight.
• erikrothoff 9y ago
  Besides the quite unnecessary personal attack on the founders ("One is a hardcore gamer, the other is a former backup dancer for Gucci Mane, and the third loves beer more than you do. I’m not making this up–this is what they say about themselves on their Web page") I feel the writer did nothing to back up his claim. The "clear as mud" answer from the founder "same as all OBCs" was a really weird thing to leave up to interpretation of the reader. Nowhere did the writer enlighten me about the actual rights of an On Board Courier. I found this article really lacking in substance, sorry.
  • spraak 9y ago
    Those aren't personal attacks, the author points out a sentence later that they're from the company's own page.
    • erikrothoff 9y ago
      I'm questioning the reasoning for the sarcastic remarks. They add nothing but vitriol to the discussion that should at most be a discussion about the laws surrounding the service.
      • mratzloff 9y ago
        Well, if you feel like it's perfectly fine for founders to promote their gaming and beer hobbies instead of experience with a very serious industry with literal life or death consequences for couriers in some countries, where the company explicitly rejects any legal liability in their terms of service and has no 24/7 support available, by all means: use their service.
  • smsm42 9y ago
    I feel that answering any questions which could very well have legal consequences on Twitter is not a very smart idea. Legal questions are rarely well-answered in 140 chars, even if you're allowed to use emojis.
    • 9y ago
• illuminati1911 9y ago
  While I agree with most of the article, I don't understand the part where the author is complaining about the bios of the founders/managers. It's a startup, not old slow mega-corporation where making a joke will get you fired.
  • briandear 9y ago
    Would you trust your life to a guy that has a bio that mentioned how much beer he could drink? This isn’t playtime – you are literally trusting some bro to know the nuances of Chinese customs and manage a team that is supposed to “inspect” courier packages before you trust your life with them. Would you trust a surgeon with a bio that describes how thouroghly he can consume beer? International air courier work isn’t the place to be trusting zany, hip dudes. It’s not the place for making jokes, that’s for sure.
  • toni 9y ago
    The idea is that at least one of the founders should have some specialty in the field they are disrupting.
• smsm42 9y ago
  Looks quite shady, especially given we're talking about China. Anything being wrong with the package - not even drugs - that'd be insanely bad - but I'm sure there are many other things which require special papers to get into China, or are prohibited, and if something is wrong, it's the courier's ass on the line. I don't see how it could be worth the risk of being imprisoned in China. I mean it's one thing to be in a "gray area" as an American in the US, with all legal protections and ACLU and so on, and another thing doing the same in China... And I wonder what TSA thinks about people transporting things that they have little idea about in their luggage?
  • dawnerd 9y ago
    Pretty sure tsa requires you to know what's in your possession too. Can't really hide behind "it's not mine, I didn't know X was in there!"
• BayesStreet 9y ago
  On their website they state "Airmule then manually inspects and verifies each item prior to packaging for a traveler." but I doubt this company that started last year has more experience finding contraband than law enforcement doing it their whole lives who have seen everything. Pretty asymmetric risk profile, save a couple hundred bucks for potentially your life.
  • FRex 9y ago
    Just because an item is totally legal to have in China and legal to carry into China on your person doesn't mean you can bring it in for profit in such a scheme. There are borders where you can carry through alcohol, petrol and tobacco for personal use but people who make a living off of it are breaking the law. Of course in the first world all you get is a fine and get your contraband confiscated which just sets you back a month or two, but risking that in China..?
• zbjornson 9y ago
  I don't know anything about airmule's operation or China's customs/security, but the on-board courier industry is a legitimate one that has regulations and procedures that it's not clear the author of this article is aware of. > "We have found contraband in [courier] shipments," says U.S. Customs official Bob Fischler, "but percentage-wise it is infinitisemal. And in any seizure we made, it was obvious that the on-board courier had nothing to do with it." In fact, at New York' JFK and at London's Heathrow airport, because of the sheer volume of courier shipments, all courier pouches go to a central location for clearance. The courier is typically dismissed before customs physically inspects the shipments. - From Air Courier Bargains by Kelly Monaghan.
  • icelancer 9y ago
    Then the founder of the company should have provided said links and documentation in response to tweets and communication.
    • rvnx 9y ago
      He did, he did... "Besides, Airmule talked to some professionals — people who are in jail for actually being drug mules or other drug-trafficking crimes. And they all said they’d never use a system like Airmule, Yang (CEO) says. " See. It's perfectly safe (｢･ω･)｢
  • ggggtez 9y ago
    That's a quote from US officials. The author points out you'd be dealing with Chinese officials. It turns out those aren't the same. Read the article to see what happens next.
• bberrry 9y ago
  Is 31B a reference I'm missing? It didn't come up in the article body.
  • kalleboo 9y ago
    It's the name of the blog
  • greenyoda 9y ago
    "Seat 31B" is the name of the blog. If you look at the image at the top of the page, it apparently refers to a seat number in economy class.
  • deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  • simcop2387 9y ago
    It's the name of the site, he explains it on the about me page, http://www.seat31b.com/why-another-travel-blog/ http://www.seat31b.com/why-another-travel-blog/
  • manarth 9y ago
    "You’ll find me sitting in the middle seat, all the way in the back, next to the toilets, but smiling the whole way because that seat was ridiciculously cheap or even free!" It's the premise for the travel blog. The author describes it as "the worst possible seat in economy class", but at least it's cheap! http://www.seat31b.com/why-another-travel-blog/ http://www.seat31b.com/why-another-travel-blog/
  • dan1234 9y ago
    The site promotes cheap travel and I think 31b is usually one of the cheaper seats on a plane.
  • deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
• nebabyte 9y ago
  > Plus, you really have to love the founders of this company. I mean, as a startup founder myself, I’m rooting for them. One is a hardcore gamer, the other is a former backup dancer for Gucci Mane, and the third loves beer more than you do. I’m not making this up–this is what they say about themselves on their Web page This guy clearly doesn't get it. Your startup page is where you post a phip relatable quirky attribute, whereas your actual qualifications go in single-phrase sentences on your twitter bio and after your name on quora answers /s, hopefully obviously
• jfoutz 9y ago
  This makes me super curious about the pre flight baggage controls. How do they handle someone who picks up the extra bag, but winds up not taking the flight? With baby formula, i'd just return the bag and apologize, eating the $99. Heroin on the other hand, i could probably move at a steep discount. $1k or so, not worth the risk. $10 or $20k? hmm. The bag needs to be worth at least $1000 in the target country, just to break even. it seems like pretending to be a stoner, and setting up enough to buy a plane ticket could get you a lot of money for $99. Fake id and a prepaid credit card aren't that hard to come by. It's not like the ID needs to pass TSA inspection, as you're not taking the flight. Seems like a very risky business. If your customers are willing to be pasties, it'll be ok. but just a couple of sharks completely change the risk profile. Doing stuff that precludes government enforcement of contracts is just crazy crazy risky.
  • celticninja 9y ago
    Just FYI: Pasties: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasty https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasty Patsies: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/patsy https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/patsy
    • DonHopkins 9y ago
      http://absolutelyfabulous.wikia.com/wiki/Patsy_Stone http://absolutelyfabulous.wikia.com/wiki/Patsy_Stone
    • jfoutz 9y ago
      Ha! Typed it on my phone. I indeed meant the second, 'patsy'. Thanks for the correction.
  • Johnie 9y ago
    Usually, if you don't checkin or board a flight, the airline will pull your bag off of the flight.
• zupa-hu 9y ago
  So, they claim they can have the cake and eat it too - as in, ship the bag as non-personal carrier stuff to avoid prison, and ship it as personal non-carrier stuff to pass customs. Bold.
• smegel 9y ago
  "We'll pay you to take this bag on the airplane for us.". Yeah...nah.
• grecy 9y ago
  I frequently fly international with zero checked bags and about 5lbs of carry on. I would love to be able to do so for $99 if someone wants to on-sell my checked allowance. After reading the article I see the pitfalls I had never thought of, and would obviously want some extremely, extremely clear legalities to make it very clear the bags are not mine, and I'm not bringing them into any country. No, I did not pack them and, no, I am not bringing them into your country.
• csomar 9y ago
  The founder is lame and as /u/wjnc mentioned he has a trump-like behavior. The question is very simple: If there is drugs in the shipment, does the traveller get a FREE pass? The article is lengthy and kind of make this question vague. In my understanding it is a single question: Who bares the responsibility? Well, it is you the poor traveller. There is no way in hell you can accept such a deal even if you are flying for Free. In fact, if you are, ask yourself the question: Do free meals really exist?
• jstoja 9y ago
  Founder of a startup, having a major article killing your company and "don't have time on a Saturday with my family to engage". I understand that family is important, but isn't a situation like this so important that you - at least - replace some time next week by 2hours now to answer to this article?! Edit: made me think about this xkcd https://xkcd.com/386/ https://xkcd.com/386/
  • yborg 9y ago
    It's always been fashionable for VCs to give large amounts of other people's money to these 'bropreneurs' because they think that some of the hip may rub off on them, or perhaps that a cool image is a sufficient business plan. The one startup every 6-7 years where someone parlays being a massive tool into a huge valuation (Uber the most recent poster child) is enough to keep this model going in perpetuity.
• skrause 9y ago
  Before clicking on the article I thought that the dangerous catch was that you have to sit in seat 31B and wondered why. The article's title and site name should really be differentiated better in HN's title.
• chx 9y ago
  It was not so long ago that the CBP stopped a business courier off a flight from Guatemala who happened to carry nine pounds of heroin. Because he was a courier, he was not criminally charged, nonetheless he was barred from entry and banned for at least five years. And that's the USA, not China. http://www.loudountimes.com/news/article/cbp_officers_seize_9_pounds_of_heroin_at_dulles_airport898 http://www.loudountimes.com/news/article/cbp_officers_seize_...
• Karliss 9y ago
  If airplane companies take into account that certain percentage of passengers will not arrive and overbook flights wouldn't they also take into account that most passengers will have less than maximum allowed baggage?
• Someone 9y ago
  https://www.airmule.com/terms-of-service/ https://www.airmule.com/terms-of-service/: "Please note that, as stated above, the site, application and services are intended to be used to facilitate travelers and senders connecting and arranging item transportation directly with each other. Airmule cannot and does not control the content contained in any package and the condition, legality or suitability of any items and luggage. Airmule strongly advises each traveler to inspect each item carefully. If a traveler does suspects an item is illicit, do not transport and contact airmule. Airmule is not responsible for and disclaims any and all liability related to any and all available transportation. Accordingly, any inquiries will be made or accepted at the member’s own risk." I don't know how long that has been there, but it is clear. They are brokers, but don't accept any liability.
  • sneak 9y ago
    "does suspects". These guys are extremely diligent.
    • deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
  • dghf 9y ago
    "Airmule strongly advises each traveler to inspect each item carefully." But in their FAQs, they have this: "Can I inspect the shipments?" "All travelers have the right to inspect their shipment(s) prior to boarding. However, please note that Airmule manually inspects and verifies each item for safety before traveler handoff." https://airmule.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/115004938167-Can-I-inspect-the-shipments- https://airmule.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/115004938167-C...
    • qyv 9y ago
      This is extremely disingenuous of them to have their FAQ essentially contradict their TOS. Honestly sounds like they are deliberately trying to deceive people.
      • 9y ago
• inertial 9y ago
  Quite a few companies operate in this space. This business idea & its risks have been discussed on HN more than once. I'm surprised that some of these are still around. A likely pivot for these could be to carry specific goods where there are no "dangerous" side effects e.g. importing smartphones, laptops etc. Although they still are not exactly legal. - https://grabr.io/en/ https://grabr.io/en/ - http://www.entrusters.com/ http://www.entrusters.com/ - https://backpackbang.com/home https://backpackbang.com/home - https://www.piggybee.com/en/ https://www.piggybee.com/en/ - https://worldcraze.com/ https://worldcraze.com/ - http://www.canubring.com/ http://www.canubring.com/ - https://www.manyship.com/ https://www.manyship.com/
  • jeffdavis 9y ago
    How do you know it's really a Macbook, and not a Macbook box that has been emptied and refilled with heroin and re-shrink-wrapped?
    • inertial 9y ago
      Because you (the traveller) would order it from apple.com and get paid for the cost + courier fee.
      • jeffdavis 9y ago
        That makes sense for security if the traveller buys it. But does that then run into customs problems because you are bringing goods for sale rather than just carrying them for someone else?
        • inertial 9y ago
          > does that then run into customs problems Quite likely. The traveler is evading duty and subverting the rules.
• bisRepetita 9y ago
  Real life example of a Guatemalan OBC unknowingly bringing heroin into the US: he was deemed not responsible quickly, and got expelled right away with no right to come back for 5 years. http://www.loudountimes.com/news/article/cbp_officers_seize_9_pounds_of_heroin_at_dulles_airport898 http://www.loudountimes.com/news/article/cbp_officers_seize_...
  • ridgewell 9y ago
    On that note, China is not remotely as understanding as the United States when it comes to these things.
• baybal2 9y ago
  China United Airlines once did the route for CNY488 with carry on only
• exabrial 9y ago
  This is 100% illegal no doubt
• micah94 9y ago
  Wait...let me get this straight: You carry a package on a plane to China given to you by someone you don't even know? This is a joke, right?
• throwawayus98 9y ago
  I think the real moral of the story is just avoid travel to bass-ackwards Stone Age countries like China..
• jliptzin 9y ago
  If someone came to me with this business idea I'd chuckle and say haha, good one. Of course assuming that it is some joke. It boggles my mind that apparently 3 (presumably reasonable?) people have decided to seriously pursue this idea. It's so bad on so many different levels it may actually be the worst business idea I have ever heard.
  • ddebernardy 9y ago
    Quite a few consumers just go for whatever's cheapest without reading through the laundry lists of caveats or realizing the risks they're taking. (I for one wouldn't be surprised if they end up successful until a client of theirs actually ends up in trouble serious enough that TV news outlets raise public awareness.)
• chrischen 9y ago
  Why not just specifically operate in the market of importing baby formula in China. You can easily subsidize a flight ticket with a checked luggage full of baby formula and for extra security the mule can go buy the formula him or herself.
• rpmcmurphy 9y ago
  Some startups just need to die in a fire. This is one of them. (Theranos is another one).
• overcast 9y ago
  I don't carry checked bags for the specific reason that I don't want to deal with checked bags. I guess this is for people who want to be as cheap as possible, while simultaneously being as inconvenienced as possible.
• Sapph 9y ago
  There's another company that lets travelers subsidize their flight ticket / earn money for delivering US products to their destination: https://grabr.io/travel https://grabr.io/travel Key difference is: You buy the products locals ordered (locals pay for item + delivery fee upfront into escrow) so there's no risk of a third party hiding drugs or illegal materials.
  • DrJaws 9y ago
    This is an amazing idea that works, not the airmule one.
  • uiri 9y ago
    One risk is if the item is perfectly legal and ordinary in the US but is illegal to import into the foreign country. The courier could wind up paying heavy fines or much worse. Kinder eggs are an example of an item that is perfectly fine in, say, Canada, but carries a heavy fine for import into the US.
  • inertial 9y ago
    Evading duty is still a legal issue. Some countries have laws that permit you to carry some articles without duty, for personal use. This is a clear subversion of such rules.
• fencepost 9y ago
  I haven't heard about air couriers for years, but I don't travel much. That said, I was under the impression that for basically all of them the package being couriered was never in the possession of the traveler but was instead packaged as freight and was delivered to the airline as such and handled as such at the receiving end. If the "courier" in question wanted to drop it off or pick it up themselves they'd still have to go to the appropriate air freight terminal. If these folks are providing packages to travelers to be checked directly by the traveler then they're idiots and so is anyone who takes them up on the offer. If not for the defensive tweets, etc. I'd feel that (as someone else noted) this must be a satire of the 'gig' economy.
• m3kw9 9y ago
  So if they missed a small pack of drugs that some slipped in there, some ones life is ruined
• skinnymuch 9y ago
  Soylent being tongue in cheek with their name is one thing. But Airmule? Why would they want to associate themselves with the most common border crossing association with mules - drug mules? Besides the whole arrangement seeming bad, the name choice is horrible.
• bogomipz 9y ago
  From their FAQ: "We don't just ship any item that comes through our front door. Airmule only partners with TSA certified shipping companies. "Under their Certified Cargo Screening Program, the TSA certifies cargo screening facilities throughout the United States to screen cargo prior to providing it to airlines for shipment on passenger flights." [1] The TSA however does not search for drugs however from the TSA's site: "TSA security officers do not search for marijuana or other drugs."[2] [1] https://airmule.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/115005116068--How-do-I-know-this-is-safe https://airmule.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/115005116068--... [2] https://apps.tsa.dhs.gov/mytsa/cib_results.aspx?search=marijuana https://apps.tsa.dhs.gov/mytsa/cib_results.aspx?search=marij...
• srathi 9y ago
  From their FAQ Airmule then manually inspects and verifies each item prior to packaging for a traveler. We also guarantee that 100% of the items shipped through our service are safe for travel on commercial aviation. This is classic lawyer speech (notice the words "safe for travel on commercial aviation"). This just means that there are no harmful things to a plane, but they don't say anything about 'safe for customs'.
• reuven 9y ago
  I'm glad that the author of this travel blog is warning people against using Airmule. Someone is going to get in a heckuva lot of trouble. First: I can only imagine, when checking my bags, getting the question, "Did anyone give you anything to bring on the flight?" and answering, "Yes, my entire 2nd bag belongs to someone else who is paying for half of my ticket." That alone would be enough to give you extra-special scrutiny when checking in. But let's assume that you get through security, go on your flight, and arrive. I've traveled to China many times, and have thus put my bag through the customs/airport scanner many times. If they find anything illegal -- and in China, that can mean all sorts of stuff -- you are in Big Trouble. I haven't ever seen anyone pulled aside when going through customs in China, but I don't envy them. And sure, Airmule can say that they've inspected things, and that this is safe and fun, etc. Just try telling the Chinese customs officials that the drugs don't belong to you, but rather to a startup in Silicon Valley. I'm sure they'll be very attentive. Airmule's site attempts to calm potential couriers' nerves by saying, "Read this Wikitravel article." (Reference: http://wikitravel.org/en/Air_courier http://wikitravel.org/en/Air_courier) However, the article says, very clearly: > You need to be very careful about the legitimacy of the jobs you take. The last thing you want is to be caught > transporting contraband (or worse) on a plane. A good way to avoid this is to use an agent (usually a > representative of the service you are working for), who will take you through customs and clear the contents. > Always check the reputation of the courier company before booking. None which are reliable and legitimate > would ever try to ship anything illegal. Airmule doesn't promise to have an agent on the arrival side. They do promise that they'll "walk you through" things, but that's very different from physically being there in China and claiming the luggage and any responsibility for it. The idea is a good one in theory, but as executed, it's half baked -- and might lead to executions of a more literal sort, if people aren't careful.
• skrebbel 9y ago
  Could this be performance art?
• skrebbel 9y ago
  Could this be performance art?
• thedogeye 9y ago
  This is exactly how DHL started btw: https://techcrunch.com/2016/02/13/how-dhl-pioneered-the-sharing-economy/ https://techcrunch.com/2016/02/13/how-dhl-pioneered-the-shar...
• gweinberg 9y ago
  What are the odds the whole thing is an elaborate joke?
• seannyang 9y ago
  Cheers everyone, this is Sean Yang, CEO and cofounder of Airmule, the air courier startup with an admittedly strange name that you might have read about earlier today. Is Airmule legal? On Board Couriers (OBC) have existed over decades. Their purpose is to service cargo that needs to be delivered in a timely manner. It’s quite an expensive service, often servicing auto parts, airplane parts, important documents, passports, NASA parts, etc. Costs can vary from a few hundred to thousands of dollars. To become an OBC is simple, just call any OBC company and register on their list. In our case, we simply request you to list your trip. The OBC companies size doesn’t have to be the same as Fedex, UPS or any airline cargo department. As long as they follow the TSA’s IAC regulation, only ship items from a “Known Shipper,” and have the cargo secured in a locked area inaccessible by outsiders. At Airmule, we have a surveillance camera over cargo 24/7. (49 CFR 1544.228, 1546.213, 1548.15, 1548.16, and 1548.7.) So yes, OBC’s are totally legal, as well as all OBC companies. I see many ask the answer to “Did you pack everything yourself” question. The answer is to be honest with Airline company “No, I didn’t. I’m an OBC and I have the manifest, and I know what’s inside my luggage”. Every single traveler will receive a manifest prior to receiving Airmule shipments Airmule is 100% responsible for the items on the list.There are items we don’t accept if they don’t comply with our policy or the destination country customs policy: For example: 1. Powdery items. 2. Pills, medicine, prescriptions 3. Unclear liquids (wine, etc.) 4. Live plants 5. Animal products (elephant teeth, fur items, etc.) 6. Counterfeit items If the Shipment is for commercial purposes, we will declare through the proper channel. We contract with a professional customs brokerage company for every single country we service. In that case, couriers simple leave the item at customs, a receipt will be issued by Customs, and Airmule will handle it onsite, couriers will be relieved from duty at that point. Airmule is not “Smuggling”. We do pay duty on behalf of shippers. Our shipping policy is very restrictive with Senders responsible for all duty fees. For those who “likes” the name, we can’t do anything about it. Regardless of what we are called; it sounds like you don’t want to work with us. We just hope one day, when you need something urgently, that Airmule is a better and more affordable option to help with delivery, and saves your day. Airmule has been running for almost 2 years, we’ve helped thousands of travelers to see the world they never were able to see before. The deal we post is 100% authentic, but a very limited offer. In appreciation of your time to read this, we’d like to give a bonus for $100 if you use coupon “ISupportAirmule” when list your trip. If you still have concerns, please do not hesitate to contact me directly at sean@airmule.com