16 ms·

There Have Always Existed People Who’ve Simply Wanted to Be Alone

429 points by fern12 9y ago

booleandilemma 9y ago
He portrays a man who, without a shred of formal outdoor training, survived through ingenuity and remarkable self-discipline The man burglarized people's houses for supplies.
- barrkel 9y ago
  This sentiment is well covered in the article.
- 65827 9y ago
  Yes, it's easy to dismiss him for many reason, but more interesting to me is how he survived the brutal Maine winters: by getting up in the middle of the night and pacing back and forth to warm up. Every night. For 27 winters. I don't know how you measure willpower but that's gotta be one of the greats right there.
- coldtea 9y ago
  >The man burglarized people's houses for supplies. If that was all it takes to survive in the woods for decades then that would be relevant.
- tonyedgecombe 9y ago
  I thought that was the least interesting part, didn't some people start leaving stuff out for him so he didn't have to break in.
mkhalil 9y ago
"Why don’t we want to be alone? Because the stuff that’s down there is stuff you don’t want to see." This really resonates with me. The "Fear of missing out" is something I try to avoid like the plague, but sometimes I wonder why do I even care? edit: replaced the acronym FOMA
- jack_pp 9y ago
  FOMA?
  - luhn 9y ago
    Fear of Missing Out
    - WalterSear 9y ago
      "Bokononism is based on the concept of foma, which are defined as harmless untruths. A foundation of Bokononism is that the religion, including its texts, is formed entirely of lies; however, one who believes and adheres to these lies will have peace of mind, and perhaps live a good life. The primary tenet of Bokononism is to "Live by the foma that make you brave and kind and healthy and happy." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bokononism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bokononism
      - rhizome 9y ago
        Reminds me of pronoia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pronoia_(psychology) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pronoia_(psychology)
        WalterSear 9y ago
        I think Vonnegut is parodying the fundamental tenet of most religion.
- InternetUser 9y ago
  > The "Fear of missing out" is something I try to avoid like the plague, but sometimes I wonder why do I even care? Ok, then don't care. Maybe it's time to finally grow up. Or then again, maybe the desire for company is perfectly natural and instinctual.
dahart 9y ago
Snap Judgement did a nice podcast version of this story. http://snapjudgment.org/north-pond-hermit http://snapjudgment.org/north-pond-hermit The letters Knight & Finkel exchanged add an interesting angle. Can't say I'm a fan of the author's choice for title of this post. It's Chris Knight's story, and nothing in this post presents any evidence for anyone else at any other time, aside from this single sentence "Think of Jesus, Mohammed, and Buddha: they all spent very long periods of time alone before introducing their religions." I totally believe there have always been people who want to be alone sometimes. Pretty much everyone wants to be alone sometimes. But ugh, this sentence & title seem to strain credulity and are so completely unnecessary and tangential to this story.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- fern12 9y ago
  Fair enough. I felt a fleeting moment of self-vindication when I saw it pop up in my RSS feed - hence, the reason why I kept it.
  - dahart 9y ago
    Oh, to be clear, I'm talking about Coombe's title not yours. It's best if you keep the article's title in tact, and this is a really interesting story, you should feel good about it popping to the top.
    - fern12 9y ago
      Duly noted. Thank you for the feedback:)
stcredzero 9y ago
True story: in the early 90's, I walked up to and witnessed this: There was a young woman running a "Museum of Elvis" in a storefront in Portland. She wasn't making it financially, so unable to pay off her student loans, she took to sitting in the storefront in a chair, with a sign and a donation box saying, "I just want to be left a loan."
dr_bloodmoney 9y ago
I read about this man when the story first broke and found it extremely fascinating. I can relate to wanting to be alone and living an isolated existence. I love being in nature, away from the world and have often thought about pursuing such an existence permanently. But I just cannot comprehend his methods. Move to Alaska. Learn to hunt. Carve out a place for yourself somewhere. What he did tells me he was just insane - live near people and steal. To put it bluntly, this is fucking nuts.
- mAdamTus 9y ago
  His methods aren't insane. They're rational for survival in human society/civilization without participating in it. Think of a rat or other mammal pest. They effectively survive off of civilization in the same way. And since he got away with it for the entire time...successfully...it seemed effective, too. >alaska Living fully alone isolated from civilization in terrain as hostile as wild alaska isn't realistic. See Christopher Mccandless. It's simpler to just scrounge off of civilization.
  - influx 9y ago
    Your sample size is one. Let me double it for you, I highly recommend Dick Proenneke's story, Alone in the Wilderness. https://youtu.be/iYJKd0rkKss https://youtu.be/iYJKd0rkKss
    - trentmb 9y ago
      Reading [0], Dick was significantly more prepared, and had a friend that regularly fly in supplies. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Proenneke#Site https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Proenneke#Site
      - influx 9y ago
        Nod, I've been more prepared going car camping for a weekend in the summer in a campground within walking distance of a resort than Chris Mccandless was going into Alaska for the winter. He should not be the benchmark for this thing.
grabcocque 9y ago
The idea of introverts and extraverts being distinct groups of people with completely different neurological responses to social situations is a largely false one, created by self-help woo merchants to unhelpfully pathologise the feeling that EVERYONE has from time to time that they want to be left the fuck alone. You know what? It's a normal, neurotypical part of life as a homo sapiens to want to be by yourself sometimes. And equally, it's a normal, neurotypical part of life as a homo sapiens to want to socialise sometimes. We're a weird species like that, the way sometimes we want something and other times we want the opposite.
- adamnemecek 9y ago
  Sure, but while I do agree that the neurological differences might be non-existent, I think that if you were to plot the amount of time people spend in social setting, you'd get something like a normal distribution. You could designate one end as introverts and one as extroverts.
  - alexvy86 9y ago
    Exactly this. And if I might nitpick a bit, I'd say "the amount of time people WANT to spend in social settings". Which would probably correlate well to the actual time spent in such settings, but to me the heart of the matter is that some people just aren't look for it, while others are.
  - sliverstorm 9y ago
    That's important though. It's probably a normal distribution. Not some crazy bimodal or something.
- sseagull 9y ago
  > The idea of introverts and extraverts being distinct groups of people with completely different neurological responses to social situations is a largely false one Why would you say that? Even perusing the wikipedia article shows that there is at least some evidence for a biological basis, and that it is being researched. Maybe it's not up to your standards, but it's far from being settled as a bunch of 'woo' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraversion_and_introversion#Biological_factors https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraversion_and_introversion#...
white-flame 9y ago
It baffles me that people think it's so shockingly outlandish that there are people who don't reactionarily buy into the tribalistic pressures around us to simply act like everyone else. Humanity is not homogeneous, yet some notions like these are always projected out to be considered an immutable, inescapable constant. I can only guess that's that same fear of being different shining through. I presume that on sites like this, there's a higher percentage of people who attempt to be more intentionally decisive about themselves and their lives. We don't necessarily have to toss out everything like Knight did, but looking at life and all the weird social rituals and expectations built up, the dichotomy between those and what seems actually beneficial becomes apparent. That conflict causes a choice, we would seek to do the "better" thing, and that draws many people outside the superficial social norms. I especially bristle at this quote: "Why don’t we want to be alone? Because the stuff that’s down there is stuff you don’t want to see." Anybody who tries to intentionally better themselves knows what's down there. You have to assess what you are if you're going to change. Sure, you can deny and hide from all that and simply find comfort in floating along with everybody else in social inertia, but that seems to me to be a shameful waste of those conceptual abilities which (apparently) make us uniquely human.
- c3534l 9y ago
  I mean, it's not exactly an easy life. You seem to give up a lot just to not see people sometimes.
  - drdeadringer 9y ago
    I find that regulating when and how I see people helps. I can be social, personable, agreeable, all that jazz. But like any given normal introvert, I need the recharge by myself and alone. For how long? Of course that depends. For me, I'll arrive to a party acceptably early [and gladly help out or whatever] or right on time as expected, and leave in classic Dr Who style when very few people notice; "happy to come, happy to go" and don't overstay my welcome. I feel like I am aware of what I am "missing out on not to see people sometimes". Chitchat, small talk, how's it going, your troubles, my troubles. However, good fences do actually make good neighbors. I've gotten great help from my neighbors and such, with about as much effort put in by either of us as described by Robert Frost, and I couldn't be more grateful.
tray5 9y ago
My personal theory for explaining hermits throughout history is simple, these people had/have aspergers. I have aspergers myself, and I can very easily see someone who has aspergers who for whatever reason no longer wants to socialize anymore getting up and doing their own thing out in isolation. I don't truly believe that any neurotypical person, and for that matter many aspies could do it, but if you're brain is wired in a way that socialization doesn't provide that reward that it does for most other people, either because you don't understand social interaction and have no desire to learn the rules so you can play the game, or simply because you have discovered the rules and simply have no interest exhausting the effort, going out into isolation and spending the rest of your days pursuing other things that give you fulfillment.
- swayvil 9y ago
  I think the nonsperg is connected to society and the sperg isn't. Like, deep down in their brain and guts. It's a big difference. Like a sperg is a single celled organism and a nonsperg is one cell in a multicell blob.
- roceasta 9y ago
  >socialization doesn't provide that reward that it does for most other people Exactly. If one doesn't get the reward then it's too easy to commit errors and not worth the effort to correct them. However I do think 'spergs' have a better knowledge of the rules than normies. Just as a native speaker doesn't need to know grammar in order to speak correctly, so normies don't need to know the rules of social interaction.
  - tray5 9y ago
    >However I do think 'spergs' have a better knowledge of the rules than normies. You're absolutely right. It's intuition for neurotypical people, it's just something they get. For aspies socialization is about learning all the hidden rules that come naturally to others. But I do admit that knowing the rules and applying them in real time is a very, very difficult thing to do. It gets exhausting quick, and if this was one of the reasons hermits decide to become hermits, I can empathise massively.
DannyDaemonic 9y ago
There's an evolutionary advantage to having people who are isolated from the rest of the community. And not just in terms of sickness transmission. Things such as war, famine, and natural disasters can wipe out whole population groups.
- jonnathanson 9y ago
  I'm a little skeptical. Isolated individuals cannot successfully reproduce a population. Furthermore, those who intentionally isolate themselves seem less likely to achieve reproductive success in the event that, say, they stumbled across a suitable mate, or a post-disaster survivor encampment.
  - DannyDaemonic 9y ago
    Perhaps I read the article wrong, but I was under the impression that he came back to society after 27 years. This would mean if there had been a disaster while he was gone, his genes would make up a much higher percentage of the population than if he had stayed.
- icebraining 9y ago
  He was still living near and reliant on other people for food and energy supplies. If shit really hit the fan and those disappeared, it's not clear he would survive either.
  - DannyDaemonic 9y ago
    When I said isolated I meant it in exactly that fashion. Isolated and withdrawn, but close enough to still fall back into society if the need - due to internal or external reasons - arose. Someone removing themselves from even the remote chance of human interaction is unlikely to have any evolutionary advantage. And unless I'm reading the article wrong, he did eventually rejoin the masses after 27 years. I guess was talking about people who feel the need to withdraw in general. I think we've all met a person or two like this, who prefered to be alone. Some just take it further than others.
evervevdww221 9y ago
I have the impulse to become a hermit myself, fundamentally because I'm tired of living up to other people's ideologies: going through schools and finding a job in a cubical. getting married at the right age and then raising the right amount kids, saving for their college fund and then for retirement. but why? I can't help but compare with my surroundings, even I have quit Facebook for many years. I can't be myself when I'm around others, but become a money maker for things I don't need. I can't concentrate on what makes me happy. I recall what made me happy. it was when I finally understood some papers, some equations, some code. I just want to find a quiet place to do these. I hope to become an awesome painter and a guitar player too. I just want to have enough to survive and focus my energy on these things. I don't care if I have successful kids or fancy cars.
- pm90 9y ago
  One of the goals of adult life is to be able to find the things that one likes to do and find creative ways to do them, when the most straightforward way does not seem possible. I don't mean to offer any solutions to your situation, but this is something that made me feel a lot more control of my own life :)
- sliverstorm 9y ago
  Trouble is at the end of the day we need food and shelter. Reading some really fascinating papers or code is great, and so are painting and playing guitar. Do all those things. But most everyone will have to work to live, and working a good job is easier with schooling, and you might meet this girl... It seems like an artificial treadmill from afar, but IMO the underpinnings are fairly sound. You just have to find the flavor that suits you. Buying farmland and working in your fields 12 hours a day, is still an option :)
  - icebraining 9y ago
    Buying farmland and working in your fields 12 hours a day, is still an option :) Yeap. Or get some sheep and go graze them in the mountains. There are still people doing that in my Western European country. Plenty of free time to think, if that's what you really want.
factsaresacred 9y ago
> Years ago, I went to India for a ten-day, silent retreat. I wanted to make myself go where I was afraid to go—deep down, inside my own head. I found it terrifying. Why don’t we want to be alone? Because the stuff that’s down there is stuff you don’t want to see. We live in a world in which who we are is defined by what we do. We are a role - parent, engineer, carer. Strip that away and all that remains is a who. That's the reward of solitude: a situation wherein you have nobody to bounce your 'self' off, nobody to define yourself in relation to, allowing you to surface. Turns out that who you are is simply a sequence of reactions to experience - the external kind as well as that which bubbles up internally. Rather than terrifying, this should be seen as profoundly liberating.
- vidanay 9y ago
  Ahhh....but now your sequence of reactions that you have includes a 10 day experience that will forever contribute to your future "who you are." Can you really say you are worse for it?
- InternetUser 9y ago
  Are you inspired to take your own silent retreat, and if so, to what kind of place and for how many days or weeks?
- eternauta3k 9y ago
  Simpler: in a retreat there are few distractions and you can see many of your behaviors which you wouldn't normally notice. The silence also takes away a big coping mechanism.
- pm90 9y ago
  It is terrifying before but liberating after. So I was extremely afraid of sky diving but once I did it, that felt liberating. Its easy to talk about re-framing our mindset, especially for things that frighten or embarrass us. Much harder to carry out. But I do agree its important to take action regardless... that seems to be the only thing that helps with it.
- exergy 9y ago
  Excellent point. I often contrast myself against my brother. I'm in STEM, he's a creative. I love Snickers, he can't stand nuts in his chocolate. I don't use social media, he's a social butterfly. Both of us base our "personality" at least to a certain degree, by comparing against each other. I wonder if either of us was an only child, if we'd still be as divergent.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
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mythrwy 9y ago
Maybe "introvert" or "extrovert" depends largely on the potential company. All people (and cultural groups for that matter) are not equally pleasant to be around.
albertgonz14 9y ago
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nabla9 9y ago
Being alone and hiking and camping in the wilderness without human contact for longer period can be amazing experience. There can be initial anxiety and intense desire to go back after romance goes away and your internal shit comes to light. When there is constant need for do chores to survive but also free time and no human contact, no books, radio or music, mind gradually settles into itself. It's like coming from bright light into a dark room. Gradually your eyes adjust and you start to see more. Coming back into the civilization is similar to someone pointing flashlight into your eyes. So much external triggers for behaviour. Realizing that I'm not actually me with other people and I'm disappearing into network of others. Me with others is mainly just bunch of triggers that fire based on conditioning. If I can feel intense otherworldliness from just week or month alone, I imagine that if someone spends decades alone, civilization might seem like miserable alien ant colony. Everybody is responding to commands from others and carrying stuff they don't care about. ps. It also can trigger psycosis, panic or some kind of madness (prairie fever, cabin fever) in some people. Romanticizing it as escape from all your problems might give people the wrong idea.
- pm90 9y ago
  I think you're correct in that people do romanticize it a lot. Regardless of whether going outdoors is actually running away from your problems or not, it does provide a refreshing break from human society, as you so elegantly described it. Sometimes, shit happens and life feels rather worthless... but these experiences can act as anchors of sanity, a reminder of the amazing beauty of nature that will continue to be there regardless of what we do, what terrible circumstances we face etc.
- fiatjaf 9y ago
  How much time before the eye adjusts?
  - nashashmi 9y ago
    +1 for this question. Is it a day, a week, a month... Or longer?
  - nabla9 9y ago
icantdrive55 9y ago
"On this planet, we don’t know what to do with people who don’t belong." 1. I think this is the real issue. I don't think this guy truly wanted to live alone. 2. I think there are a handful of people who want to live the life of a hermit, and that's fine. Today---it's practically illegial? If Jesus reappeared, he would probally break a bunch of municipal laws the first day: 1. Loitering. 2. Not getting the right permit for the event(sermon). 3. "He isn't wearing underware!" Indecent exposure ticket. 4. Fishing in the wrong stream 5. Fishing without a license. 6. And another ticket for sleeping in the park. 7. "His crushed grapes must be hooch?" another ticket--maybe a visit by ATF? My point is it's basically illegial to be without house, and money. It's not right. I knew some people who were between jobs, and they were harassed to no end. One guy committed suicide because of the harassment, actually just cops doing their jobs. We have way too many laws, and not enough help.
Mikeb85 9y ago
The title IMO is far more interesting and thought provoking than the actual story. So this guy lived in the woods somewhat near people, and stole to get by... I've personally always been fascinated by the topic as I have met several hermit monks, have a friend who lived as one for half a year, and contemplated it for myself. The history of religious asceticism and hermits is quite interesting, and many of history's most famous philosophers/religious leaders/prophets were either hermits, or had periods of reclusion. And nearly every single religion has these hermit figures. Anyhow, the downside is that being alone is tough. Physically and mentally. Humans are social creatures. However I have personally benefited from periods of isolation and reflection, even if I'd much rather be around others.
- syshum 9y ago
  I think the idea that "Humans are social creatures" is spread by the part of humanity that are social creatures and us introverts are not normally around to challenge that assertion. While undoubtedly there are many many humans that desire to socialize and be around other humans, there are many of us that find socialization less enjoyable. So while I personally have benefited from periods of social interaction, I'd much rather be in isolation and self reflection.
  - smallnamespace 9y ago
    Being social and being sociable often conflated. Every time you buy something from Amazon, drink tap water, or live in a dwelling that you didn't build yourself, you are being a social creature. Few animals are capable of interacting in these highly complicated and choreographed ways.
    - adenozin 9y ago
      What animals also do this ?
      - smallnamespace 9y ago
        Bees, ants, and other social insects have complex societies with division of labor. One difference is that in insects, the roles are probably more hard-wired and instinctual while in humans these roles are more malleable and depend on culture.
JumpCrisscross 9y ago
How does one find, or plan, such retreats?
aaron695 9y ago
There have always existed people who have suffered from severe depression. There have always existed people who are sucidial. I find the title a bit dangerous, but an interesting topic.
mark_l_watson 9y ago
Great story. I wonder how spiritual/ religious Chris is. I understand being alone in nature and the desire for solitude but Chris's life style probably has a strong spiritual component. I am going to have to read the book.
Zuider 9y ago
"Man is by nature a social animal; an individual who is unsocial naturally and not accidentally is either beneath our notice or more than human. Society is something that precedes the individual. Anyone who either cannot lead the common life or is so self-sufficient as not to need to, and therefore does not partake of society, is either a beast or a god" From Aristotle, The Politics.
FrozenVoid 9y ago
I don't want to live in a wilderness, but i would want to greatly reduce mandatory social interactions i have to do daily. Its emotionally draining and stressful. Almost everything we do can be automated, but people still insist on face-to-face interaction(or at minimum voice/video chat) and there is this herding behavior that forces people to adjust their beliefs and thoughts to conform to current in-group paradigms(the comparison with ant colonies ITT is on point). All the 24/7 media exposure and rat race of consumerism eventually take their toll on mental health(the polar opposite of "hermit slowly losing their minds") with people becoming psychotic and dependent on pills to function.
- KhanMahGretsch 9y ago
  It appears to me that, like many others, there is an issue with the quality of your interactions, and you are unable to control when/where/how they happen. I sometimes hear the phrase "People are social animals" to express the sentiment that living in densely-populated environments has a good/neutral influence on the human psyche. The disclaimer should be that socialising with people we know well and trust is what's "natural" and yields benefits; being constantly surrounded by strangers has to be stressful for us. Wether consciously or intuitively (See the excellent book "The Gift of Fear" for more), we are constantly scanning our surroundings for potential threats. That, and a lack of accountability for how one treats their "neighbours", presents problems that can place a tremendous load on your mental health.
asherkosaraju 9y ago
And there is nothing wrong with it. Most people think being alone is equivalent to being antisocial. A common misconception that needs to be addressed. The person doesn't need therapy, they just want to be left alone.
Chiba-City 9y ago
FWIW, hundreds of thousands of Christian and Buddhist monks alive today all over our world live near to one another in cells or caves. A farming monastery in Arizona started 20 years ago is just beautiful and thriving. WV now has a Buddhist monastery. Buddhist monks are considered "ordained" but not most Christian monks. Lives of quiet or social Renunciation are everywhere and growing in number. Some even have fast WiFi. Go look on YouTube. I have been considering and schematically budgeting an urban ecumenical working monastery in Washington DC that would support itself with OSS testing, documentation and language localization.
- adenozin 9y ago
  WV?
  - Chiba-City 9y ago
    The Bhavana Society Theravadins (roughly "Tradition Of Elders") in High View, West Virginia take ordinations. Theravadins keep the earliest known Pali Sutta scriptures. It is its own idiom but surprisingly similar to Stoic philosophical traditions with a Orthodox Ladder of Divine Ascent group study and meditation regimen. Great life option for long lived calmer wiser folks who do not want to raise families and enjoy reading nonfiction.
cJ0th 9y ago
> Years ago, I went to India for a ten-day, silent retreat. I wanted to make myself go where I was afraid to go—deep down, inside my own head. I found it terrifying. Why don’t we want to be alone? Because the stuff that’s down there is stuff you don’t want to see. I find it interesting that silent retreats work for so many people. While I do get some benefits from meditation it doesn't really lead me to terrifying situations. From time to time it feels like I am having some epiphanies wrt to my shortcomings but meditation seems too gentle to call those moments a confrontation. There is always this nice, cool distance between me and my thoughts. Throwing me into an impro theater group might be more beneficial (and terrifying). The required spontaneity would force the "actual me" to live through uncomfortable situations and perhaps grow.
KhanMahGretsch 9y ago
This looks like a good thread to recommend one of my favourite YouTube channels, "Primitive Technology", which features all manner of tools and dwellings built caveman-style. It's creator is a hacker in the truest sense; his forge-blower contraption, for instance, is simply ingenious. Don't forget to turn on captions, the subtitles describe what he's doing :) https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAL3JXZSzSm8AlZyD3nQdBA https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAL3JXZSzSm8AlZyD3nQdBA
- gcb0 9y ago
  it's actually the worst thread :) The article is not about some outdoorsman that built furnaces and such. he didn't even lit a fire or dug a latrine! this is the story of a man that just didn't want to be seen. he camped 3min walk from cabins, and stole books and food everywhere he could.
  - KhanMahGretsch 9y ago
    However tenuous the connection, my post is related to both tech and the OP. However irrelevant it may be, somehow I'm certain it will not be the most nuisance caused in this thread today :)
taw55 9y ago
Here is another, longer form article about Chris Knight by the same author. http://www.gq.com/story/the-last-true-hermit http://www.gq.com/story/the-last-true-hermit
- astrostl 9y ago
  Simply astounding read. Just added the book to my wishlist, but I wonder how much it'll do above and beyond.
Indolat 9y ago
“A man can be himself only so long as he is alone; and if he does not love solitude, he will not love freedom; for it is only when he is alone that he is really free.” ― Arthur Schopenhauer
lngnmn 9y ago
Since the time Vedic seers, I suppose... BTW, prolonged solitude has been considered by most major Eastern schools (both Hindu and Buddhist) as necessarily precursor for spiritual transformations.
fundabulousrIII 9y ago
Always bring a cat. Otherwise why not?
gozur88 9y ago
But Knight was never really alone. Sure, he didn't live with or talk to people. But he couldn't survive without stealing from the people around him.

429 points by fern12 9y ago

He portrays a man who, without a shred of formal outdoor training, survived through ingenuity and remarkable self-discipline The man burglarized people's houses for supplies.

barrkel 9y ago
This sentiment is well covered in the article.
65827 9y ago
Yes, it's easy to dismiss him for many reason, but more interesting to me is how he survived the brutal Maine winters: by getting up in the middle of the night and pacing back and forth to warm up. Every night. For 27 winters. I don't know how you measure willpower but that's gotta be one of the greats right there.
coldtea 9y ago
>The man burglarized people's houses for supplies. If that was all it takes to survive in the woods for decades then that would be relevant.
tonyedgecombe 9y ago
I thought that was the least interesting part, didn't some people start leaving stuff out for him so he didn't have to break in.

mkhalil 9y ago

"Why don’t we want to be alone? Because the stuff that’s down there is stuff you don’t want to see." This really resonates with me. The "Fear of missing out" is something I try to avoid like the plague, but sometimes I wonder why do I even care? edit: replaced the acronym FOMA

jack_pp 9y ago
FOMA?
- luhn 9y ago
  Fear of Missing Out
  - WalterSear 9y ago
    "Bokononism is based on the concept of foma, which are defined as harmless untruths. A foundation of Bokononism is that the religion, including its texts, is formed entirely of lies; however, one who believes and adheres to these lies will have peace of mind, and perhaps live a good life. The primary tenet of Bokononism is to "Live by the foma that make you brave and kind and healthy and happy." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bokononism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bokononism
    - rhizome 9y ago
      Reminds me of pronoia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pronoia_(psychology) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pronoia_(psychology)
      - WalterSear 9y ago
        I think Vonnegut is parodying the fundamental tenet of most religion.
InternetUser 9y ago
> The "Fear of missing out" is something I try to avoid like the plague, but sometimes I wonder why do I even care? Ok, then don't care. Maybe it's time to finally grow up. Or then again, maybe the desire for company is perfectly natural and instinctual.

dahart 9y ago

Snap Judgement did a nice podcast version of this story. http://snapjudgment.org/north-pond-hermit http://snapjudgment.org/north-pond-hermit The letters Knight & Finkel exchanged add an interesting angle. Can't say I'm a fan of the author's choice for title of this post. It's Chris Knight's story, and nothing in this post presents any evidence for anyone else at any other time, aside from this single sentence "Think of Jesus, Mohammed, and Buddha: they all spent very long periods of time alone before introducing their religions." I totally believe there have always been people who want to be alone sometimes. Pretty much everyone wants to be alone sometimes. But ugh, this sentence & title seem to strain credulity and are so completely unnecessary and tangential to this story.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
fern12 9y ago
Fair enough. I felt a fleeting moment of self-vindication when I saw it pop up in my RSS feed - hence, the reason why I kept it.
- dahart 9y ago
  Oh, to be clear, I'm talking about Coombe's title not yours. It's best if you keep the article's title in tact, and this is a really interesting story, you should feel good about it popping to the top.
  - fern12 9y ago
    Duly noted. Thank you for the feedback:)

stcredzero 9y ago

True story: in the early 90's, I walked up to and witnessed this: There was a young woman running a "Museum of Elvis" in a storefront in Portland. She wasn't making it financially, so unable to pay off her student loans, she took to sitting in the storefront in a chair, with a sign and a donation box saying, "I just want to be left a loan."

dr_bloodmoney 9y ago

I read about this man when the story first broke and found it extremely fascinating. I can relate to wanting to be alone and living an isolated existence. I love being in nature, away from the world and have often thought about pursuing such an existence permanently. But I just cannot comprehend his methods. Move to Alaska. Learn to hunt. Carve out a place for yourself somewhere. What he did tells me he was just insane - live near people and steal. To put it bluntly, this is fucking nuts.

mAdamTus 9y ago
His methods aren't insane. They're rational for survival in human society/civilization without participating in it. Think of a rat or other mammal pest. They effectively survive off of civilization in the same way. And since he got away with it for the entire time...successfully...it seemed effective, too. >alaska Living fully alone isolated from civilization in terrain as hostile as wild alaska isn't realistic. See Christopher Mccandless. It's simpler to just scrounge off of civilization.
- influx 9y ago
  Your sample size is one. Let me double it for you, I highly recommend Dick Proenneke's story, Alone in the Wilderness. https://youtu.be/iYJKd0rkKss https://youtu.be/iYJKd0rkKss
  - trentmb 9y ago
    Reading [0], Dick was significantly more prepared, and had a friend that regularly fly in supplies. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Proenneke#Site https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Proenneke#Site
    - influx 9y ago
      Nod, I've been more prepared going car camping for a weekend in the summer in a campground within walking distance of a resort than Chris Mccandless was going into Alaska for the winter. He should not be the benchmark for this thing.

grabcocque 9y ago

The idea of introverts and extraverts being distinct groups of people with completely different neurological responses to social situations is a largely false one, created by self-help woo merchants to unhelpfully pathologise the feeling that EVERYONE has from time to time that they want to be left the fuck alone. You know what? It's a normal, neurotypical part of life as a homo sapiens to want to be by yourself sometimes. And equally, it's a normal, neurotypical part of life as a homo sapiens to want to socialise sometimes. We're a weird species like that, the way sometimes we want something and other times we want the opposite.

adamnemecek 9y ago
Sure, but while I do agree that the neurological differences might be non-existent, I think that if you were to plot the amount of time people spend in social setting, you'd get something like a normal distribution. You could designate one end as introverts and one as extroverts.
- alexvy86 9y ago
  Exactly this. And if I might nitpick a bit, I'd say "the amount of time people WANT to spend in social settings". Which would probably correlate well to the actual time spent in such settings, but to me the heart of the matter is that some people just aren't look for it, while others are.
- sliverstorm 9y ago
  That's important though. It's probably a normal distribution. Not some crazy bimodal or something.
sseagull 9y ago
> The idea of introverts and extraverts being distinct groups of people with completely different neurological responses to social situations is a largely false one Why would you say that? Even perusing the wikipedia article shows that there is at least some evidence for a biological basis, and that it is being researched. Maybe it's not up to your standards, but it's far from being settled as a bunch of 'woo' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraversion_and_introversion#Biological_factors https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraversion_and_introversion#...

white-flame 9y ago

It baffles me that people think it's so shockingly outlandish that there are people who don't reactionarily buy into the tribalistic pressures around us to simply act like everyone else. Humanity is not homogeneous, yet some notions like these are always projected out to be considered an immutable, inescapable constant. I can only guess that's that same fear of being different shining through. I presume that on sites like this, there's a higher percentage of people who attempt to be more intentionally decisive about themselves and their lives. We don't necessarily have to toss out everything like Knight did, but looking at life and all the weird social rituals and expectations built up, the dichotomy between those and what seems actually beneficial becomes apparent. That conflict causes a choice, we would seek to do the "better" thing, and that draws many people outside the superficial social norms. I especially bristle at this quote: "Why don’t we want to be alone? Because the stuff that’s down there is stuff you don’t want to see." Anybody who tries to intentionally better themselves knows what's down there. You have to assess what you are if you're going to change. Sure, you can deny and hide from all that and simply find comfort in floating along with everybody else in social inertia, but that seems to me to be a shameful waste of those conceptual abilities which (apparently) make us uniquely human.

c3534l 9y ago
I mean, it's not exactly an easy life. You seem to give up a lot just to not see people sometimes.
- drdeadringer 9y ago
  I find that regulating when and how I see people helps. I can be social, personable, agreeable, all that jazz. But like any given normal introvert, I need the recharge by myself and alone. For how long? Of course that depends. For me, I'll arrive to a party acceptably early [and gladly help out or whatever] or right on time as expected, and leave in classic Dr Who style when very few people notice; "happy to come, happy to go" and don't overstay my welcome. I feel like I am aware of what I am "missing out on not to see people sometimes". Chitchat, small talk, how's it going, your troubles, my troubles. However, good fences do actually make good neighbors. I've gotten great help from my neighbors and such, with about as much effort put in by either of us as described by Robert Frost, and I couldn't be more grateful.

tray5 9y ago

My personal theory for explaining hermits throughout history is simple, these people had/have aspergers. I have aspergers myself, and I can very easily see someone who has aspergers who for whatever reason no longer wants to socialize anymore getting up and doing their own thing out in isolation. I don't truly believe that any neurotypical person, and for that matter many aspies could do it, but if you're brain is wired in a way that socialization doesn't provide that reward that it does for most other people, either because you don't understand social interaction and have no desire to learn the rules so you can play the game, or simply because you have discovered the rules and simply have no interest exhausting the effort, going out into isolation and spending the rest of your days pursuing other things that give you fulfillment.

swayvil 9y ago
I think the nonsperg is connected to society and the sperg isn't. Like, deep down in their brain and guts. It's a big difference. Like a sperg is a single celled organism and a nonsperg is one cell in a multicell blob.
roceasta 9y ago
>socialization doesn't provide that reward that it does for most other people Exactly. If one doesn't get the reward then it's too easy to commit errors and not worth the effort to correct them. However I do think 'spergs' have a better knowledge of the rules than normies. Just as a native speaker doesn't need to know grammar in order to speak correctly, so normies don't need to know the rules of social interaction.
- tray5 9y ago
  >However I do think 'spergs' have a better knowledge of the rules than normies. You're absolutely right. It's intuition for neurotypical people, it's just something they get. For aspies socialization is about learning all the hidden rules that come naturally to others. But I do admit that knowing the rules and applying them in real time is a very, very difficult thing to do. It gets exhausting quick, and if this was one of the reasons hermits decide to become hermits, I can empathise massively.

DannyDaemonic 9y ago

There's an evolutionary advantage to having people who are isolated from the rest of the community. And not just in terms of sickness transmission. Things such as war, famine, and natural disasters can wipe out whole population groups.

jonnathanson 9y ago
I'm a little skeptical. Isolated individuals cannot successfully reproduce a population. Furthermore, those who intentionally isolate themselves seem less likely to achieve reproductive success in the event that, say, they stumbled across a suitable mate, or a post-disaster survivor encampment.
- DannyDaemonic 9y ago
  Perhaps I read the article wrong, but I was under the impression that he came back to society after 27 years. This would mean if there had been a disaster while he was gone, his genes would make up a much higher percentage of the population than if he had stayed.
icebraining 9y ago
He was still living near and reliant on other people for food and energy supplies. If shit really hit the fan and those disappeared, it's not clear he would survive either.
- DannyDaemonic 9y ago
  When I said isolated I meant it in exactly that fashion. Isolated and withdrawn, but close enough to still fall back into society if the need - due to internal or external reasons - arose. Someone removing themselves from even the remote chance of human interaction is unlikely to have any evolutionary advantage. And unless I'm reading the article wrong, he did eventually rejoin the masses after 27 years. I guess was talking about people who feel the need to withdraw in general. I think we've all met a person or two like this, who prefered to be alone. Some just take it further than others.

evervevdww221 9y ago

I have the impulse to become a hermit myself, fundamentally because I'm tired of living up to other people's ideologies: going through schools and finding a job in a cubical. getting married at the right age and then raising the right amount kids, saving for their college fund and then for retirement. but why? I can't help but compare with my surroundings, even I have quit Facebook for many years. I can't be myself when I'm around others, but become a money maker for things I don't need. I can't concentrate on what makes me happy. I recall what made me happy. it was when I finally understood some papers, some equations, some code. I just want to find a quiet place to do these. I hope to become an awesome painter and a guitar player too. I just want to have enough to survive and focus my energy on these things. I don't care if I have successful kids or fancy cars.

pm90 9y ago
One of the goals of adult life is to be able to find the things that one likes to do and find creative ways to do them, when the most straightforward way does not seem possible. I don't mean to offer any solutions to your situation, but this is something that made me feel a lot more control of my own life :)
sliverstorm 9y ago
Trouble is at the end of the day we need food and shelter. Reading some really fascinating papers or code is great, and so are painting and playing guitar. Do all those things. But most everyone will have to work to live, and working a good job is easier with schooling, and you might meet this girl... It seems like an artificial treadmill from afar, but IMO the underpinnings are fairly sound. You just have to find the flavor that suits you. Buying farmland and working in your fields 12 hours a day, is still an option :)
- icebraining 9y ago
  Buying farmland and working in your fields 12 hours a day, is still an option :) Yeap. Or get some sheep and go graze them in the mountains. There are still people doing that in my Western European country. Plenty of free time to think, if that's what you really want.

factsaresacred 9y ago

> Years ago, I went to India for a ten-day, silent retreat. I wanted to make myself go where I was afraid to go—deep down, inside my own head. I found it terrifying. Why don’t we want to be alone? Because the stuff that’s down there is stuff you don’t want to see. We live in a world in which who we are is defined by what we do. We are a role - parent, engineer, carer. Strip that away and all that remains is a who. That's the reward of solitude: a situation wherein you have nobody to bounce your 'self' off, nobody to define yourself in relation to, allowing you to surface. Turns out that who you are is simply a sequence of reactions to experience - the external kind as well as that which bubbles up internally. Rather than terrifying, this should be seen as profoundly liberating.

vidanay 9y ago
Ahhh....but now your sequence of reactions that you have includes a 10 day experience that will forever contribute to your future "who you are." Can you really say you are worse for it?
InternetUser 9y ago
Are you inspired to take your own silent retreat, and if so, to what kind of place and for how many days or weeks?
eternauta3k 9y ago
Simpler: in a retreat there are few distractions and you can see many of your behaviors which you wouldn't normally notice. The silence also takes away a big coping mechanism.
pm90 9y ago
It is terrifying before but liberating after. So I was extremely afraid of sky diving but once I did it, that felt liberating. Its easy to talk about re-framing our mindset, especially for things that frighten or embarrass us. Much harder to carry out. But I do agree its important to take action regardless... that seems to be the only thing that helps with it.
exergy 9y ago
Excellent point. I often contrast myself against my brother. I'm in STEM, he's a creative. I love Snickers, he can't stand nuts in his chocolate. I don't use social media, he's a social butterfly. Both of us base our "personality" at least to a certain degree, by comparing against each other. I wonder if either of us was an only child, if we'd still be as divergent.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

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albertgonz14 9y ago

mythrwy 9y ago

Maybe "introvert" or "extrovert" depends largely on the potential company. All people (and cultural groups for that matter) are not equally pleasant to be around.

albertgonz14 9y ago

nabla9 9y ago

Being alone and hiking and camping in the wilderness without human contact for longer period can be amazing experience. There can be initial anxiety and intense desire to go back after romance goes away and your internal shit comes to light. When there is constant need for do chores to survive but also free time and no human contact, no books, radio or music, mind gradually settles into itself. It's like coming from bright light into a dark room. Gradually your eyes adjust and you start to see more. Coming back into the civilization is similar to someone pointing flashlight into your eyes. So much external triggers for behaviour. Realizing that I'm not actually me with other people and I'm disappearing into network of others. Me with others is mainly just bunch of triggers that fire based on conditioning. If I can feel intense otherworldliness from just week or month alone, I imagine that if someone spends decades alone, civilization might seem like miserable alien ant colony. Everybody is responding to commands from others and carrying stuff they don't care about. ps. It also can trigger psycosis, panic or some kind of madness (prairie fever, cabin fever) in some people. Romanticizing it as escape from all your problems might give people the wrong idea.

pm90 9y ago
I think you're correct in that people do romanticize it a lot. Regardless of whether going outdoors is actually running away from your problems or not, it does provide a refreshing break from human society, as you so elegantly described it. Sometimes, shit happens and life feels rather worthless... but these experiences can act as anchors of sanity, a reminder of the amazing beauty of nature that will continue to be there regardless of what we do, what terrible circumstances we face etc.
fiatjaf 9y ago
How much time before the eye adjusts?
- nashashmi 9y ago
  +1 for this question. Is it a day, a week, a month... Or longer?
- nabla9 9y ago

icantdrive55 9y ago

"On this planet, we don’t know what to do with people who don’t belong." 1. I think this is the real issue. I don't think this guy truly wanted to live alone. 2. I think there are a handful of people who want to live the life of a hermit, and that's fine. Today---it's practically illegial? If Jesus reappeared, he would probally break a bunch of municipal laws the first day: 1. Loitering. 2. Not getting the right permit for the event(sermon). 3. "He isn't wearing underware!" Indecent exposure ticket. 4. Fishing in the wrong stream 5. Fishing without a license. 6. And another ticket for sleeping in the park. 7. "His crushed grapes must be hooch?" another ticket--maybe a visit by ATF? My point is it's basically illegial to be without house, and money. It's not right. I knew some people who were between jobs, and they were harassed to no end. One guy committed suicide because of the harassment, actually just cops doing their jobs. We have way too many laws, and not enough help.

Mikeb85 9y ago

The title IMO is far more interesting and thought provoking than the actual story. So this guy lived in the woods somewhat near people, and stole to get by... I've personally always been fascinated by the topic as I have met several hermit monks, have a friend who lived as one for half a year, and contemplated it for myself. The history of religious asceticism and hermits is quite interesting, and many of history's most famous philosophers/religious leaders/prophets were either hermits, or had periods of reclusion. And nearly every single religion has these hermit figures. Anyhow, the downside is that being alone is tough. Physically and mentally. Humans are social creatures. However I have personally benefited from periods of isolation and reflection, even if I'd much rather be around others.

syshum 9y ago
I think the idea that "Humans are social creatures" is spread by the part of humanity that are social creatures and us introverts are not normally around to challenge that assertion. While undoubtedly there are many many humans that desire to socialize and be around other humans, there are many of us that find socialization less enjoyable. So while I personally have benefited from periods of social interaction, I'd much rather be in isolation and self reflection.
- smallnamespace 9y ago
  Being social and being sociable often conflated. Every time you buy something from Amazon, drink tap water, or live in a dwelling that you didn't build yourself, you are being a social creature. Few animals are capable of interacting in these highly complicated and choreographed ways.
  - adenozin 9y ago
    What animals also do this ?
    - smallnamespace 9y ago
      Bees, ants, and other social insects have complex societies with division of labor. One difference is that in insects, the roles are probably more hard-wired and instinctual while in humans these roles are more malleable and depend on culture.

JumpCrisscross 9y ago

How does one find, or plan, such retreats?

aaron695 9y ago

There have always existed people who have suffered from severe depression. There have always existed people who are sucidial. I find the title a bit dangerous, but an interesting topic.

mark_l_watson 9y ago

Great story. I wonder how spiritual/ religious Chris is. I understand being alone in nature and the desire for solitude but Chris's life style probably has a strong spiritual component. I am going to have to read the book.

Zuider 9y ago

"Man is by nature a social animal; an individual who is unsocial naturally and not accidentally is either beneath our notice or more than human. Society is something that precedes the individual. Anyone who either cannot lead the common life or is so self-sufficient as not to need to, and therefore does not partake of society, is either a beast or a god" From Aristotle, The Politics.

FrozenVoid 9y ago

I don't want to live in a wilderness, but i would want to greatly reduce mandatory social interactions i have to do daily. Its emotionally draining and stressful. Almost everything we do can be automated, but people still insist on face-to-face interaction(or at minimum voice/video chat) and there is this herding behavior that forces people to adjust their beliefs and thoughts to conform to current in-group paradigms(the comparison with ant colonies ITT is on point). All the 24/7 media exposure and rat race of consumerism eventually take their toll on mental health(the polar opposite of "hermit slowly losing their minds") with people becoming psychotic and dependent on pills to function.

KhanMahGretsch 9y ago
It appears to me that, like many others, there is an issue with the quality of your interactions, and you are unable to control when/where/how they happen. I sometimes hear the phrase "People are social animals" to express the sentiment that living in densely-populated environments has a good/neutral influence on the human psyche. The disclaimer should be that socialising with people we know well and trust is what's "natural" and yields benefits; being constantly surrounded by strangers has to be stressful for us. Wether consciously or intuitively (See the excellent book "The Gift of Fear" for more), we are constantly scanning our surroundings for potential threats. That, and a lack of accountability for how one treats their "neighbours", presents problems that can place a tremendous load on your mental health.

asherkosaraju 9y ago

And there is nothing wrong with it. Most people think being alone is equivalent to being antisocial. A common misconception that needs to be addressed. The person doesn't need therapy, they just want to be left alone.

Chiba-City 9y ago

FWIW, hundreds of thousands of Christian and Buddhist monks alive today all over our world live near to one another in cells or caves. A farming monastery in Arizona started 20 years ago is just beautiful and thriving. WV now has a Buddhist monastery. Buddhist monks are considered "ordained" but not most Christian monks. Lives of quiet or social Renunciation are everywhere and growing in number. Some even have fast WiFi. Go look on YouTube. I have been considering and schematically budgeting an urban ecumenical working monastery in Washington DC that would support itself with OSS testing, documentation and language localization.

adenozin 9y ago
WV?
- Chiba-City 9y ago
  The Bhavana Society Theravadins (roughly "Tradition Of Elders") in High View, West Virginia take ordinations. Theravadins keep the earliest known Pali Sutta scriptures. It is its own idiom but surprisingly similar to Stoic philosophical traditions with a Orthodox Ladder of Divine Ascent group study and meditation regimen. Great life option for long lived calmer wiser folks who do not want to raise families and enjoy reading nonfiction.

cJ0th 9y ago

> Years ago, I went to India for a ten-day, silent retreat. I wanted to make myself go where I was afraid to go—deep down, inside my own head. I found it terrifying. Why don’t we want to be alone? Because the stuff that’s down there is stuff you don’t want to see. I find it interesting that silent retreats work for so many people. While I do get some benefits from meditation it doesn't really lead me to terrifying situations. From time to time it feels like I am having some epiphanies wrt to my shortcomings but meditation seems too gentle to call those moments a confrontation. There is always this nice, cool distance between me and my thoughts. Throwing me into an impro theater group might be more beneficial (and terrifying). The required spontaneity would force the "actual me" to live through uncomfortable situations and perhaps grow.

KhanMahGretsch 9y ago

This looks like a good thread to recommend one of my favourite YouTube channels, "Primitive Technology", which features all manner of tools and dwellings built caveman-style. It's creator is a hacker in the truest sense; his forge-blower contraption, for instance, is simply ingenious. Don't forget to turn on captions, the subtitles describe what he's doing :) https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAL3JXZSzSm8AlZyD3nQdBA https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAL3JXZSzSm8AlZyD3nQdBA

gcb0 9y ago
it's actually the worst thread :) The article is not about some outdoorsman that built furnaces and such. he didn't even lit a fire or dug a latrine! this is the story of a man that just didn't want to be seen. he camped 3min walk from cabins, and stole books and food everywhere he could.
- KhanMahGretsch 9y ago
  However tenuous the connection, my post is related to both tech and the OP. However irrelevant it may be, somehow I'm certain it will not be the most nuisance caused in this thread today :)

taw55 9y ago

Here is another, longer form article about Chris Knight by the same author. http://www.gq.com/story/the-last-true-hermit http://www.gq.com/story/the-last-true-hermit

astrostl 9y ago
Simply astounding read. Just added the book to my wishlist, but I wonder how much it'll do above and beyond.

Indolat 9y ago

“A man can be himself only so long as he is alone; and if he does not love solitude, he will not love freedom; for it is only when he is alone that he is really free.” ― Arthur Schopenhauer

lngnmn 9y ago

Since the time Vedic seers, I suppose... BTW, prolonged solitude has been considered by most major Eastern schools (both Hindu and Buddhist) as necessarily precursor for spiritual transformations.

fundabulousrIII 9y ago

Always bring a cat. Otherwise why not?

gozur88 9y ago

But Knight was never really alone. Sure, he didn't live with or talk to people. But he couldn't survive without stealing from the people around him.