7 ms·

By definition of the word refugee, a refugee is expected to restart her life from scratch. Bootstrapping like that takes years and education in many cases becom

By definition of the word refugee, a refugee is expected to restart her life from scratch. Bootstrapping like that takes years and education in many cases becomes second priority. Comparing a refugee with an immigrant is unjust. One chooses to abandon her home town, the other is either forced to leave or escapes for survival.

hasenj 9y ago
That's not the real difference though. Immigrants also have to restart from scratch. Everything in Canada is completely different from what we're used to in our countries of origin. Often, parents who were engineers in their home countries have to work blue collar jobs to make ends meet. I think the actual difference is in average IQ and other desirable traits like industriousness. Immigrants tend to be at the higher end while refugees tend to be at the lower end.
- diegoperini 9y ago
  If what you mean by IQ is "opportunity to access quality education before immigration", then you may be right. But in that case IQ becomes a function of wealth which is not that common among refugees. Inequality is not genetically but sociologically inherited.
  - gasof 9y ago
    I think he meant IQ as in "intelligence quotent", which is what the word means. IQ tests are designed not to be influenced education levels.
- chrischen 9y ago
  I would say refugees tend to be on the more average end, rather than lower end.
- foldr 9y ago
  >I think the actual difference is in average IQ and other desirable traits like industriousness. Immigrants tend to be at the higher end while refugees tend to be at the lower end. Why would people fleeing war zones be on average less industrious or less intelligent? That doesn't make any sense.
  - myth_drannon 9y ago
    Because of Canada's immigration policy, most of the immigrants are highly educated, they wouldn't be an immigrant if they didn't finish high school. Refugees is everyone else who couldn't immigrate and had to go the other route. So you might have a Sudanese immigrants who are highly educated and Sudanese refugees who are more likely to be illiterate (a bit generalizing but still). This is very different from US where you have a green card lottery and your typical immigrant is just an average population because everyone has the same chance of winning lottery, it doesn't matter if you are a farmer or aircraft engineer.
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    - foldr 9y ago
      He mentioned IQ and industriousness, not level of education. There is only a weak correlation. (And you are not likely to successfully make it from Sudan to Canada if you are lazy and stupid.)
      - hasenj 9y ago
        As far as I know, the correlation between IQ and education success is very strong. If it wasn't so, IQ would be totally meaningless.
        foldr 9y ago
        Educational attainment is correlated with lots things. For example, there is a strong correlation between your parents' wealth and your educational attainment. Your argument would make sense if IQ were the only thing correlated with educational attainment, but it isn't.
        9y ago
- Kluny 9y ago
  Uh, no. I immigrated to Denmark. I went with a year's worth of savings, a place to live lined up when I arrived, a job and Danish lessons organized, and a fallback plan to return home if it doesn't work out. When you have time to plan, you start lightyears ahead of those who have to leave their homes on the run and go wherever fate takes them.
dgudkov 9y ago
> Comparing a refugee with an immigrant is unjust The refugee system in Canada is frequently abused. I hear anecdotes from my friends about kids from rich families in safe Easter European countries, that pay thousands to immigration lawyers and apply for refugee status simply because the partied too much and didn't manage to get enough points to go through the point based system. Such "refugees" can be safely compared with immigrants.
- pm90 9y ago
  Eh, sounds a lot like the overblown "Welfare Queen" syndrome that so many in the US worry about so much. Yes, there are most likely people who abuse the system, but most people who get assistance are genuine refugees.

hasenj 9y ago

That's not the real difference though. Immigrants also have to restart from scratch. Everything in Canada is completely different from what we're used to in our countries of origin. Often, parents who were engineers in their home countries have to work blue collar jobs to make ends meet. I think the actual difference is in average IQ and other desirable traits like industriousness. Immigrants tend to be at the higher end while refugees tend to be at the lower end.

diegoperini 9y ago
If what you mean by IQ is "opportunity to access quality education before immigration", then you may be right. But in that case IQ becomes a function of wealth which is not that common among refugees. Inequality is not genetically but sociologically inherited.
- gasof 9y ago
  I think he meant IQ as in "intelligence quotent", which is what the word means. IQ tests are designed not to be influenced education levels.
chrischen 9y ago
I would say refugees tend to be on the more average end, rather than lower end.
foldr 9y ago
>I think the actual difference is in average IQ and other desirable traits like industriousness. Immigrants tend to be at the higher end while refugees tend to be at the lower end. Why would people fleeing war zones be on average less industrious or less intelligent? That doesn't make any sense.
- myth_drannon 9y ago
  Because of Canada's immigration policy, most of the immigrants are highly educated, they wouldn't be an immigrant if they didn't finish high school. Refugees is everyone else who couldn't immigrate and had to go the other route. So you might have a Sudanese immigrants who are highly educated and Sudanese refugees who are more likely to be illiterate (a bit generalizing but still). This is very different from US where you have a green card lottery and your typical immigrant is just an average population because everyone has the same chance of winning lottery, it doesn't matter if you are a farmer or aircraft engineer.
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  - foldr 9y ago
    He mentioned IQ and industriousness, not level of education. There is only a weak correlation. (And you are not likely to successfully make it from Sudan to Canada if you are lazy and stupid.)
    - hasenj 9y ago
      As far as I know, the correlation between IQ and education success is very strong. If it wasn't so, IQ would be totally meaningless.
      - foldr 9y ago
        Educational attainment is correlated with lots things. For example, there is a strong correlation between your parents' wealth and your educational attainment. Your argument would make sense if IQ were the only thing correlated with educational attainment, but it isn't.
        9y ago
Kluny 9y ago
Uh, no. I immigrated to Denmark. I went with a year's worth of savings, a place to live lined up when I arrived, a job and Danish lessons organized, and a fallback plan to return home if it doesn't work out. When you have time to plan, you start lightyears ahead of those who have to leave their homes on the run and go wherever fate takes them.

dgudkov 9y ago

> Comparing a refugee with an immigrant is unjust The refugee system in Canada is frequently abused. I hear anecdotes from my friends about kids from rich families in safe Easter European countries, that pay thousands to immigration lawyers and apply for refugee status simply because the partied too much and didn't manage to get enough points to go through the point based system. Such "refugees" can be safely compared with immigrants.

pm90 9y ago
Eh, sounds a lot like the overblown "Welfare Queen" syndrome that so many in the US worry about so much. Yes, there are most likely people who abuse the system, but most people who get assistance are genuine refugees.