10 ms·

A few colorful facts to the story here: 1) 3 years of service vests into NFL pension plan, he just hit qualification - value pegged at $21,360 a year for life

A few colorful facts to the story here: 1) 3 years of service vests into NFL pension plan, he just hit qualification - value pegged at $21,360 a year for life (3) 2) He has not publicly commented on his retirement or reasons for it. 3) He has a hugely awesome secondary option - doctorate of math at MIT 4) He was at end of his rookie contract, next year would be the "in the money" year for him so he is clearly leaving a lot of cash on the table. 5) Over three years he "only" earned ~$1.8m http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/baltimore-ravens/john-urschel-14586/cash-earnings/ http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/baltimore-ravens/john-urschel-145... - which after tax is 7 figures but still not a lot. 6) He has been notoriously thrifty, living on $25k a year and driving a used car (2). So would imagine at some level he has been planning this outcome, or leaving option wide open. (1) https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2017/07/27/at-age-26-ravens-john-urschel-retires-from-nfl-to-pursue-phd-in-math-at-mit/?utm_term=.993521d04a50 https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2017/07/27... (2) http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/bs-sp-ravens-john-urschel-math-20150707-story.html#page=1 http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/bs-sp-ravens-john-urschel... (3) http://firstquarterfinance.com/nfl-pension-plan-retirement-plan/ http://firstquarterfinance.com/nfl-pension-plan-retirement-p...

paulddraper 9y ago
> after tax is 7 figures but still not a lot What exactly is "a lot of money" (and how much do you think MIT professors are paid)? I think point #6 is more relevant than point #5.
- freyir 9y ago
  In the context, it's obvious he's talking about NFL players. Offensive line annual salaries: http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/average/offensive-line/ http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/average/offensive-line/
- QuotedForTruth 9y ago
  I think the point is he isn't "set for life" like some may expect NFL players to be.
  - dceddia 9y ago
    He certainly could be, if he keeps living on $25k/year. See [0] and run some calculations at [1]. 0: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-behind-early-retirement/ http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-sim... 1: https://networthify.com/calculator/earlyretirement https://networthify.com/calculator/earlyretirement
    - opportune 9y ago
      People generally don't retire to $25k/year, especially if they eventually get married and have children. The only way to really make something like that work is to move somewhere extremely inexpensive like SEA. That's unrealistic for most people. This is the one thing that has always struck me as odd abut the FIRE community. FIRE is a good goal but it's highly abnormal for people to retire early with these very low annual salaries for themselves. Sure, it works if you're a single childless 30 year old. But you also generally have to be comfortable staying single and childless if you're going to "retire" to $25k/year.
      - umanwizard 9y ago
        Does SEA mean Seattle? My mind is blown that Seattle comes to your mind as the least expensive place in the US...
        pc86 9y ago
        Southeast Asia.
        opportune 9y ago
        No, Southeast Asia. E.g. Indonesia or Thailand (just not Singapore)
        umanwizard 9y ago
        Ah, got it, thanks.
- aanm1988 9y ago
  Dude is doing a PhD in linear algebra and ML. He will have the option to make a very comfortable amount of money.
- cookiecaper 9y ago
  "A lot of money" is also known as "Fuck you money". Enough money that you can say "fuck you" to anyone without worrying about the consequences. $1M is not even close to that, especially not for a young guy who has to pay for the next 60 years of his and his family's existence. Don't get me wrong, it's a good starting point, and you can definitely be reasonably secure on it if you invest wisely and continue to work (e.g., buying a reasonably-priced house in a stable neighborhood and staying in it long term; this will take about 1/3 of that $1M, btw), but it's not enough to be truly independent. A single serious lawsuit will easily drain $1M, for example.
  - wavefunction 9y ago
    Some folks can say "fuck you" on a budget. I imagine this guy can, given his uncomplicated expectations of life.
  - kasey_junk 9y ago
    I hate that term. There is no such thing. Bill Gates can't tell the President "fuck you" and the President can't tell the Pope "fuck you". We live in an interconnected world and there isn't enough money in the world to make your actions consequence proof.
    - throwitbaby187 9y ago
      i don't know how much attention you pay to politics but it's pretty clear that just about anyone can say "fuck you" to the president
    - cookiecaper 9y ago
      It's not about being "consequence proof", because as you note, it's never possible to avoid the consequences of one's actions. It's just about being independent. An independent person does not need the goodwill or approval of any other person or small group for their well-being or prosperity. If you are ever going to need a paycheck again, this is by definition not you. Independence ("fuck you money") is about being able to be honest with anyone, even if it means giving a measured, well-deserved "fuck you", without having to worry that your ability to feed and clothe your kids will be jeopardized. It's not about being above the law or anything like that.
- tnecniv 9y ago
  Well he's only a student so somewhere between $30k and $40k, maybe a touch more if he gets a fellowship. Also, how much professors make varies quite a bit. An engineering professor might make $100k from the university. If they are particularly motivated, you have professors who write books, play key roles at companies, consult, or give expert testimony. They can make quite a bit off those secondary activities but it isn't automatic.
- gumby 9y ago
  > and how much do you think MIT professors are paid? Depends a lot on department and situation. Course 18 (math) doesn't pay that great while course 6 does. If you have a chair you can pay yourself more; if you take a non-academic role (dean, provost, department head etc) you can get more. Even when you have tenure you get reviews and raises just like any other job. Point of reference: my gf's ex is a tenured prof in a non-engineering field. B/c child support etc I know what he earns. Adjusted for inflation, my summer consulting gigs (before the 1980s AI winter) earned me over 50% of what he makes all annually including his own summer consulting. I'm sure if he were in computer science he'd make more in a month than I would have made all year.
- tzs 9y ago
  Full professors at MIT on average make about $186k [1]. Assistant professors average around $124k [2], with considerable variation (I'd guess the full professors also have considerable variation). [1] http://tech.mit.edu/V134/N18/salary.html http://tech.mit.edu/V134/N18/salary.html [2] https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/MIT-Assistant-Professor-Salaries-E2889_D_KO4,23.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/MIT-Assistant-Professor-Sal...
blang 9y ago
He has also had some endorsement money with Bose.
- yelnatz 9y ago
  Are those guaranteed? Do you lose endorsements when you quit playing?
  - qq66 9y ago
    Each contract is individual, but generally, endorsement contracts have a lot of termination clauses, so Bose could and will end the deal soon, unless Urschel's brand is so unique (MIT math PhD and NFL player? Nothing like it) that they decide to keep him on.
    - ovulator 9y ago
      I think MIT math PhD former NFL Player has just as much marketing power as MIT math PhD backup center. So I could see Bose keeping it for a year. He probably has more star power announcing his retirement than all of his NFL career so far.
brandall10 9y ago
It's worth reading his 2015 article "Why I Still Play Football": https://www.theplayerstribune.com/why-i-play-football/ https://www.theplayerstribune.com/why-i-play-football/. Regarding mathematics as a career and his outlook on the financial issue - "I have a bright career ahead of me in mathematics. Beyond that, I have the means to make a good living and provide for my family, without playing football. I have no desire to try to accumulate $10 million in the bank; I already have more money in my bank account than I know what to do with. I drive a used hatchback Nissan Versa and live on less than $25k a year. It’s not because I’m frugal or trying to save for some big purchase, it’s because the things I love the most in this world (reading math, doing research, playing chess) are very, very inexpensive."
- ChuckMcM 9y ago
  That is the secret to happiness as far as I am concerned; measure your days by how much you've learned not by how much you have earned. Interesting to know about the retirement 'vest' of 3 years. If he lives another 60 years that is a bit more than $1.25M.
  - sillysaurus3 9y ago
    That is the secret to happiness as far as I am concerned; measure your days by how much you've learned not by how much you have earned. Yet the vast majority of the time, this sentiment comes from people who are well-off, e.g. someone with an MIT PhD and an almost impossible-to-screw-up future. There are at least two possibilities. Either people who aren't well-off are just sour grapes, or they deal with a lot more than a lack of proper mindset. The secret to happiness is no secret: if you have more money than you know what to do with, you can cover the vast majority of cases that will make you unhappy. If you, your children, or your pets get ill, you can get them proper medical care. For someone who lives on $25k/yr, that will almost always end in disaster. I think it's not productive to pretend like money doesn't equate to happiness. The lust for money can do a lot of damage, but simply realizing that money is incredibly important to happiness is a realization that most people don't make. They spend extravagantly when Christmas comes around; they eat out because they want to "feel like a normal person," i.e. someone who can afford to eat out; they get expensive birthday gifts for family members. And why? Then when a financial disaster comes around, like someone getting ill with no insurance in the US, there are no resources left to deal with it. I don't know. It's just far too easy to feel like there's a key to happiness waiting to be discovered. It's a multi-faceted and complex issue.
LeifCarrotson 9y ago
I thought your (2) link would point to said used car. Here's a post by John on Twitter with a photo of his old Nissan Versa: https://twitter.com/JohnCUrschel/status/628306625753911297 https://twitter.com/JohnCUrschel/status/628306625753911297
maxxxxx 9y ago
"Over three years he "only" earned ~$1.8m http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/baltimore-ravens/john-urschel-145.. http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/baltimore-ravens/john-urschel-145.... - which after tax is 7 figures but still not a lot" For a lot of us this would be FU money if you don't have the desire to live big. Plus he gets the pension.
- fgonzag 9y ago
  At least in the USA it is in no way FU money unless you are over 60 or something. Assuming you invested it all and didn't spend a single cent, that's 12K a year from interest (generous 7%). You can probably spend 30-40K for 30 years if you decide to dip into the principal. But if you are young, you will have to get a main income source.
  - maxxxxx 9y ago
    You probably can't live on it solely but together with the pension it gives you the freedom to find a job you like even if it's low pay.
    - kasey_junk 9y ago
      Pension doesn't pay out until 55
  - sokoloff 9y ago
    "Safe withdrawal rate" is usually pegged at 3.5% to 4%. On an initial lump sum of $1MM, that's $35K-40K/yr, not $12K per year. (I'm not sure where the 7% came from in your post.) Good scenario modeling tool: cFIREsim: http://www.cfiresim.com/# http://www.cfiresim.com/# You can login as HNHN : HNHNHN and look at the scenario I modeled using the information in this thread. That has a 100% success rate from now until 2080, assuming a 3.5% annual spend ($35K to start) AND ignoring any new money being added (from his mathematics or other work). It's not Maserati money perhaps, but it's absolutely a secure retirement for someone currently living on $25K/yr.
    - 9y ago
rhapsodic 9y ago
Also, endorsement deals: https://twitter.com/JohnCUrschel/status/887703140652523520 https://twitter.com/JohnCUrschel/status/887703140652523520 This guys is not going to be struggling financially.
tootie 9y ago
He also did at least one commercial for headphones. Endorsement deals are frequently worth more than player contracts.
babesh 9y ago
I believe that he isn’t qualified to receive his pension till he is 55. http://blog.futureadvisor.com/nfl-players-must-go-long-on-retirement/ http://blog.futureadvisor.com/nfl-players-must-go-long-on-re...
awkwarddaturtle 9y ago
> 4) He was at end of his rookie contract, next year would be the "in the money" year for him so he is clearly leaving a lot of cash on the table. The lifetime pension really helps, but if I were him, I would have stuck it out to see what I could get for my new contract. The rookie contract is low because of the changes made in the last CBA. His post-rookie contract could have netted him tens of millions. But I'm greedy and would gladly sacrifice my health for a $40 million contract.

paulddraper 9y ago

> after tax is 7 figures but still not a lot What exactly is "a lot of money" (and how much do you think MIT professors are paid)? I think point #6 is more relevant than point #5.

freyir 9y ago
In the context, it's obvious he's talking about NFL players. Offensive line annual salaries: http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/average/offensive-line/ http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/average/offensive-line/
QuotedForTruth 9y ago
I think the point is he isn't "set for life" like some may expect NFL players to be.
- dceddia 9y ago
  He certainly could be, if he keeps living on $25k/year. See [0] and run some calculations at [1]. 0: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-behind-early-retirement/ http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-sim... 1: https://networthify.com/calculator/earlyretirement https://networthify.com/calculator/earlyretirement
  - opportune 9y ago
    People generally don't retire to $25k/year, especially if they eventually get married and have children. The only way to really make something like that work is to move somewhere extremely inexpensive like SEA. That's unrealistic for most people. This is the one thing that has always struck me as odd abut the FIRE community. FIRE is a good goal but it's highly abnormal for people to retire early with these very low annual salaries for themselves. Sure, it works if you're a single childless 30 year old. But you also generally have to be comfortable staying single and childless if you're going to "retire" to $25k/year.
    - umanwizard 9y ago
      Does SEA mean Seattle? My mind is blown that Seattle comes to your mind as the least expensive place in the US...
      - pc86 9y ago
        Southeast Asia.
      - opportune 9y ago
        No, Southeast Asia. E.g. Indonesia or Thailand (just not Singapore)
        umanwizard 9y ago
        Ah, got it, thanks.
aanm1988 9y ago
Dude is doing a PhD in linear algebra and ML. He will have the option to make a very comfortable amount of money.
cookiecaper 9y ago
"A lot of money" is also known as "Fuck you money". Enough money that you can say "fuck you" to anyone without worrying about the consequences. $1M is not even close to that, especially not for a young guy who has to pay for the next 60 years of his and his family's existence. Don't get me wrong, it's a good starting point, and you can definitely be reasonably secure on it if you invest wisely and continue to work (e.g., buying a reasonably-priced house in a stable neighborhood and staying in it long term; this will take about 1/3 of that $1M, btw), but it's not enough to be truly independent. A single serious lawsuit will easily drain $1M, for example.
- wavefunction 9y ago
  Some folks can say "fuck you" on a budget. I imagine this guy can, given his uncomplicated expectations of life.
- kasey_junk 9y ago
  I hate that term. There is no such thing. Bill Gates can't tell the President "fuck you" and the President can't tell the Pope "fuck you". We live in an interconnected world and there isn't enough money in the world to make your actions consequence proof.
  - throwitbaby187 9y ago
    i don't know how much attention you pay to politics but it's pretty clear that just about anyone can say "fuck you" to the president
  - cookiecaper 9y ago
    It's not about being "consequence proof", because as you note, it's never possible to avoid the consequences of one's actions. It's just about being independent. An independent person does not need the goodwill or approval of any other person or small group for their well-being or prosperity. If you are ever going to need a paycheck again, this is by definition not you. Independence ("fuck you money") is about being able to be honest with anyone, even if it means giving a measured, well-deserved "fuck you", without having to worry that your ability to feed and clothe your kids will be jeopardized. It's not about being above the law or anything like that.
tnecniv 9y ago
Well he's only a student so somewhere between $30k and $40k, maybe a touch more if he gets a fellowship. Also, how much professors make varies quite a bit. An engineering professor might make $100k from the university. If they are particularly motivated, you have professors who write books, play key roles at companies, consult, or give expert testimony. They can make quite a bit off those secondary activities but it isn't automatic.
gumby 9y ago
> and how much do you think MIT professors are paid? Depends a lot on department and situation. Course 18 (math) doesn't pay that great while course 6 does. If you have a chair you can pay yourself more; if you take a non-academic role (dean, provost, department head etc) you can get more. Even when you have tenure you get reviews and raises just like any other job. Point of reference: my gf's ex is a tenured prof in a non-engineering field. B/c child support etc I know what he earns. Adjusted for inflation, my summer consulting gigs (before the 1980s AI winter) earned me over 50% of what he makes all annually including his own summer consulting. I'm sure if he were in computer science he'd make more in a month than I would have made all year.
tzs 9y ago
Full professors at MIT on average make about $186k [1]. Assistant professors average around $124k [2], with considerable variation (I'd guess the full professors also have considerable variation). [1] http://tech.mit.edu/V134/N18/salary.html http://tech.mit.edu/V134/N18/salary.html [2] https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/MIT-Assistant-Professor-Salaries-E2889_D_KO4,23.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/MIT-Assistant-Professor-Sal...

blang 9y ago

He has also had some endorsement money with Bose.

yelnatz 9y ago
Are those guaranteed? Do you lose endorsements when you quit playing?
- qq66 9y ago
  Each contract is individual, but generally, endorsement contracts have a lot of termination clauses, so Bose could and will end the deal soon, unless Urschel's brand is so unique (MIT math PhD and NFL player? Nothing like it) that they decide to keep him on.
  - ovulator 9y ago
    I think MIT math PhD former NFL Player has just as much marketing power as MIT math PhD backup center. So I could see Bose keeping it for a year. He probably has more star power announcing his retirement than all of his NFL career so far.

brandall10 9y ago

It's worth reading his 2015 article "Why I Still Play Football": https://www.theplayerstribune.com/why-i-play-football/ https://www.theplayerstribune.com/why-i-play-football/. Regarding mathematics as a career and his outlook on the financial issue - "I have a bright career ahead of me in mathematics. Beyond that, I have the means to make a good living and provide for my family, without playing football. I have no desire to try to accumulate $10 million in the bank; I already have more money in my bank account than I know what to do with. I drive a used hatchback Nissan Versa and live on less than $25k a year. It’s not because I’m frugal or trying to save for some big purchase, it’s because the things I love the most in this world (reading math, doing research, playing chess) are very, very inexpensive."

ChuckMcM 9y ago
That is the secret to happiness as far as I am concerned; measure your days by how much you've learned not by how much you have earned. Interesting to know about the retirement 'vest' of 3 years. If he lives another 60 years that is a bit more than $1.25M.
- sillysaurus3 9y ago
  That is the secret to happiness as far as I am concerned; measure your days by how much you've learned not by how much you have earned. Yet the vast majority of the time, this sentiment comes from people who are well-off, e.g. someone with an MIT PhD and an almost impossible-to-screw-up future. There are at least two possibilities. Either people who aren't well-off are just sour grapes, or they deal with a lot more than a lack of proper mindset. The secret to happiness is no secret: if you have more money than you know what to do with, you can cover the vast majority of cases that will make you unhappy. If you, your children, or your pets get ill, you can get them proper medical care. For someone who lives on $25k/yr, that will almost always end in disaster. I think it's not productive to pretend like money doesn't equate to happiness. The lust for money can do a lot of damage, but simply realizing that money is incredibly important to happiness is a realization that most people don't make. They spend extravagantly when Christmas comes around; they eat out because they want to "feel like a normal person," i.e. someone who can afford to eat out; they get expensive birthday gifts for family members. And why? Then when a financial disaster comes around, like someone getting ill with no insurance in the US, there are no resources left to deal with it. I don't know. It's just far too easy to feel like there's a key to happiness waiting to be discovered. It's a multi-faceted and complex issue.

LeifCarrotson 9y ago

I thought your (2) link would point to said used car. Here's a post by John on Twitter with a photo of his old Nissan Versa: https://twitter.com/JohnCUrschel/status/628306625753911297 https://twitter.com/JohnCUrschel/status/628306625753911297

maxxxxx 9y ago

"Over three years he "only" earned ~$1.8m http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/baltimore-ravens/john-urschel-145.. http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/baltimore-ravens/john-urschel-145.... - which after tax is 7 figures but still not a lot" For a lot of us this would be FU money if you don't have the desire to live big. Plus he gets the pension.

fgonzag 9y ago
At least in the USA it is in no way FU money unless you are over 60 or something. Assuming you invested it all and didn't spend a single cent, that's 12K a year from interest (generous 7%). You can probably spend 30-40K for 30 years if you decide to dip into the principal. But if you are young, you will have to get a main income source.
- maxxxxx 9y ago
  You probably can't live on it solely but together with the pension it gives you the freedom to find a job you like even if it's low pay.
  - kasey_junk 9y ago
    Pension doesn't pay out until 55
- sokoloff 9y ago
  "Safe withdrawal rate" is usually pegged at 3.5% to 4%. On an initial lump sum of $1MM, that's $35K-40K/yr, not $12K per year. (I'm not sure where the 7% came from in your post.) Good scenario modeling tool: cFIREsim: http://www.cfiresim.com/# http://www.cfiresim.com/# You can login as HNHN : HNHNHN and look at the scenario I modeled using the information in this thread. That has a 100% success rate from now until 2080, assuming a 3.5% annual spend ($35K to start) AND ignoring any new money being added (from his mathematics or other work). It's not Maserati money perhaps, but it's absolutely a secure retirement for someone currently living on $25K/yr.
  - 9y ago

rhapsodic 9y ago

Also, endorsement deals: https://twitter.com/JohnCUrschel/status/887703140652523520 https://twitter.com/JohnCUrschel/status/887703140652523520 This guys is not going to be struggling financially.

tootie 9y ago

He also did at least one commercial for headphones. Endorsement deals are frequently worth more than player contracts.

babesh 9y ago

I believe that he isn’t qualified to receive his pension till he is 55. http://blog.futureadvisor.com/nfl-players-must-go-long-on-retirement/ http://blog.futureadvisor.com/nfl-players-must-go-long-on-re...

awkwarddaturtle 9y ago

> 4) He was at end of his rookie contract, next year would be the "in the money" year for him so he is clearly leaving a lot of cash on the table. The lifetime pension really helps, but if I were him, I would have stuck it out to see what I could get for my new contract. The rookie contract is low because of the changes made in the last CBA. His post-rookie contract could have netted him tens of millions. But I'm greedy and would gladly sacrifice my health for a $40 million contract.