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My understanding is that its not an issue of the cost to "upgrade" the interconnection infrastructure. That cost is likely negligible. What's happening is tha

by jmuguy 9y ago

My understanding is that its not an issue of the cost to "upgrade" the interconnection infrastructure. That cost is likely negligible. What's happening is that VZ is refusing to do it, and allowing service to degrade, unless Google pays X. So yeah, basically extortion. Google has already paid for bandwidth, and this is traffic that VZ's paying customers are requesting.

mrkrabo 9y ago
That's what splitting the bill means. You don't pay "for the bandwidth", you pay for a link between two ISPs (Google and Verizon). The bill between then should be split, otherwise the traffic will have to pass through somewhere else, and that will cause congestion problems.
- jmuguy 9y ago
  Google has most certainly paid for bandwidth/traffic from their end. Whether that's to a CDN or some other arrangement, and there's likely already peering agreements in place. In these cases what Verizon is doing is asking for money above and beyond what it actually costs to handle the interconnection. They use declining service to their own customers as leverage. Its ridiculous, and even more worrying when you see ISPs and content providers merging as is the case with VZ buying Yahoo and AOL, Comcast and NBC merger, etc.
jerkstate 9y ago
let's do a little math.. the router ports on both sides, let's say you are using 4 ports across 4 fully loaded nexus 9508 (let's call those $500k per incl. optics, so $2M / 384 x 4 ports / 36 months = $600/port/month x 4 = $2400/4-ports/month) Depending on how the connection between the two worked or was paid for, it could be $1000-$20000 for 2 pairs of fiber per month depending on distance. Let's take a middle of the road $10k average cost. So for 10Gbps peak redundant capacity, you are at $12,400 per month. Netflix 4k stream is about 16 megabits, so you can fit 625 4k streams in $12,400 of cross-connect capacity. If you don't share costs, that's about $20 per user to support Netflix's business model that people seem to think it's Comcast's responsibility to pay. That's not even considering Comcast's last mile distribution cost or paying any salaries. Streaming video services soak up a lot of network resources and putting all of the cost on ISPs is going to increase your ISP's cost and price. How many low-income families do you think would lose broadband if it went from $50/mo to $100/mo?
- Karunamon 9y ago
  That's assuming that we're talking a connection streaming a video from Netflix's CDN to the customer's device. When in reality, Netflix offered to put a CDN cache box in Comcast's DC which would largely reduce the problem, Comcast turned them down. That, alone, tells me that this is not a congestion or a cost problem, it is a bull-headedness for the purpose of rent seeking problem. And as to the "last mile" costs, those are what Comcast subscribers are paying Comcast for. They act like this traffic is unsolicited noise, when in reality it's why they're being paid anything by anyone. I say don't charge people for x megabits down if you don't intend on them using it.
  - jerkstate 9y ago
    My understanding is that Comcast offered Netflix commercially reasonable terms for colo and cross-connect and Netflix opted for public interconnect via an exchange, which alleviated the bandwidth constraints caused by Cogent taking Netflix's money and then refusing to comply with their cost-sharing peering agreement with Comcast. Calling the Netflix CDN boxes "free" is totally misleading because Comcast would still need to pay for the router ports to carry the traffic internally, space & power, and management assistance. That deal works for a small ISP that pays for most of its bandwidth but not a large ISP that uses significant amounts of shared-cost peering. If Comcast is required to host those boxes "for free" what of every other CDN that they previously had agreements with? I agree that Comcast marketing "up to X megabits" is misleading and those chickens have come home to roost with people thinking that their last mile means they should get that speed to every point on the Internet 24 hours a day. I have been negotiating commercial bandwidth agreements for years and even from a tier 1 you can't get that guarantee in a contract.
    - Karunamon 9y ago
      Calling the Netflix CDN boxes "free" is totally misleading because Comcast would still need to pay for the router ports to carry the traffic internally, space & power, and management assistance. Which is still less than the cost of doing a proper interconnect - they chose instead to let it degrade and play semantic games instead. It also puts the lie to their complaint that it was ever about congestion. The correct response to people requesting a lot of traffic from X is to ensure that traffic is delivered efficiently. That is why their customers pay them.

by jmuguy 9y ago

mrkrabo 9y ago

That's what splitting the bill means. You don't pay "for the bandwidth", you pay for a link between two ISPs (Google and Verizon). The bill between then should be split, otherwise the traffic will have to pass through somewhere else, and that will cause congestion problems.

jmuguy 9y ago
Google has most certainly paid for bandwidth/traffic from their end. Whether that's to a CDN or some other arrangement, and there's likely already peering agreements in place. In these cases what Verizon is doing is asking for money above and beyond what it actually costs to handle the interconnection. They use declining service to their own customers as leverage. Its ridiculous, and even more worrying when you see ISPs and content providers merging as is the case with VZ buying Yahoo and AOL, Comcast and NBC merger, etc.

jerkstate 9y ago

let's do a little math.. the router ports on both sides, let's say you are using 4 ports across 4 fully loaded nexus 9508 (let's call those $500k per incl. optics, so $2M / 384 x 4 ports / 36 months = $600/port/month x 4 = $2400/4-ports/month) Depending on how the connection between the two worked or was paid for, it could be $1000-$20000 for 2 pairs of fiber per month depending on distance. Let's take a middle of the road $10k average cost. So for 10Gbps peak redundant capacity, you are at $12,400 per month. Netflix 4k stream is about 16 megabits, so you can fit 625 4k streams in $12,400 of cross-connect capacity. If you don't share costs, that's about $20 per user to support Netflix's business model that people seem to think it's Comcast's responsibility to pay. That's not even considering Comcast's last mile distribution cost or paying any salaries. Streaming video services soak up a lot of network resources and putting all of the cost on ISPs is going to increase your ISP's cost and price. How many low-income families do you think would lose broadband if it went from $50/mo to $100/mo?

Karunamon 9y ago
That's assuming that we're talking a connection streaming a video from Netflix's CDN to the customer's device. When in reality, Netflix offered to put a CDN cache box in Comcast's DC which would largely reduce the problem, Comcast turned them down. That, alone, tells me that this is not a congestion or a cost problem, it is a bull-headedness for the purpose of rent seeking problem. And as to the "last mile" costs, those are what Comcast subscribers are paying Comcast for. They act like this traffic is unsolicited noise, when in reality it's why they're being paid anything by anyone. I say don't charge people for x megabits down if you don't intend on them using it.
- jerkstate 9y ago
  My understanding is that Comcast offered Netflix commercially reasonable terms for colo and cross-connect and Netflix opted for public interconnect via an exchange, which alleviated the bandwidth constraints caused by Cogent taking Netflix's money and then refusing to comply with their cost-sharing peering agreement with Comcast. Calling the Netflix CDN boxes "free" is totally misleading because Comcast would still need to pay for the router ports to carry the traffic internally, space & power, and management assistance. That deal works for a small ISP that pays for most of its bandwidth but not a large ISP that uses significant amounts of shared-cost peering. If Comcast is required to host those boxes "for free" what of every other CDN that they previously had agreements with? I agree that Comcast marketing "up to X megabits" is misleading and those chickens have come home to roost with people thinking that their last mile means they should get that speed to every point on the Internet 24 hours a day. I have been negotiating commercial bandwidth agreements for years and even from a tier 1 you can't get that guarantee in a contract.
  - Karunamon 9y ago
    Calling the Netflix CDN boxes "free" is totally misleading because Comcast would still need to pay for the router ports to carry the traffic internally, space & power, and management assistance. Which is still less than the cost of doing a proper interconnect - they chose instead to let it degrade and play semantic games instead. It also puts the lie to their complaint that it was ever about congestion. The correct response to people requesting a lot of traffic from X is to ensure that traffic is delivered efficiently. That is why their customers pay them.