4 ms·

Although descriptive of the legal situation, I object to the term "pirate library". There is no practical difference between a pirate library and a brick and mo

by resf 9y ago

Although descriptive of the legal situation, I object to the term "pirate library". There is no practical difference between a pirate library and a brick and mortar library, except the larger stock of books online. My local library even has a photocopier. A library is a place where you can choose a book, and read it for free. That's how it's been for thousands of years. Copyright is a modern intruder and has no right to brand bone fide libraries as "pirate".

DanBC 9y ago
You know authors get payments from loans that libraries make, right? (At least, in UK and Ireland) https://www.plr.uk.com/ https://www.plr.uk.com/
- delinka 9y ago
  I've never heard of such in the US. I'm now reading your link, but I'd like to hear if anyone know of similar arrangements in the US.
  - kasey_junk 9y ago
    In the US libraries pay for their physical books, which pay royalties per usual. For digital media they usually have a negotiated rate where they pay royalties and limit the number of copies "out on loan".
    - stinkytaco 9y ago
      Negotiated might be strong term. Most libraries work through middlemen who do that negotiation and are then given a rate that they can take or leave. There's no "shopping around" for digital media since publishers control the pricing and availability. This is proving to be a budgeting challenge since digital media is more expensive that physical. There are no discounts from wholesalers for bulk purchasing. Many libraries get physical media at up to a 40% discount from retail because they buy so much. Of course, digital media does not need to be maintained. It does not need to be cataloged and reshelved; it does not wear out or get damaged. But libraries are still adapting to this shift since there still is a great deal of physical media checking out and that staff is still needed.
      - kasey_junk 9y ago
        The library landscape is surprisingly varied in the United States. Big systems such as New York, Chicago and Los Angelos exert a huge amount of control on the "middle men" that service them (and a 40% discount is where all systems start and always have). This is of course not surprising. Like all parts of the book industry the ecosystem surrounding libraries is changing very fast. The digital media side is not as clear as you are making it out to be. Publishers do not in fact set the pricing and availability, because the publishers don't particularly want to be in the business of servicing libraries (just like they don't want to be in the business of library binding and cataloging) so they have to allow third parties the ability to do some negotiations. In many ways its just like physical books (the cost of physical books is largely not the act of creating the physical copy). The difference is that the classic rift between desires of libraries and publishers is more stark with electronic books. Libraries want to provide access as cheaply as possible usually as a governmental agency and publishers want to have a profitable business. That doesn't even begin to talk about the existential crisis libraries are going through. Its a fairly interesting thing to watch as an outside observer. I don't work in this space but my wife does and I've had drinks with enough publishers, jobbers and librarians to see it as fascinating
        Alysha3434 9y ago
        I get paid over $95 per hour working from home with 2 kids at home. I never thought I'd be able to do it but my best friend earns over 10k a month doing this and she convinced me to try. The potential with this is endless. Heres what I've been doing, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfJ3KWPnqqs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfJ3KWPnqqs
        stinkytaco 9y ago
        I am a librarian who works with digital media, so I see this industry close up as part of my job. So a few things: The vast majority of libraries are not NYPL, LAPL, King County PL, etc. Most are medium to small and servicing almost every town in the United States. They are arranged in a dizzying array of geographic, bureaucratic and budgetary configurations. I once worked with a library that was a unified system with shelf level access to items, but every municipality funded its own local branch, so money went into a central system and had to be accounted for when purchasing items. They handled 15 different budgets. It was staggering. This make negotiation impossible. We rely on vendors like Overdrive, Baker and Taylor, Midwest Tape, Recorded Books, etc, to provide access to digital materials. And though there are sales, digital materials are unquestionably more expensive. I work in a system with a service population of about 500,000 (it's a statewide consortia of local libraries), and hold lists can run into the 100s for a popular title. If the title is from Penguin Random House, it will likely cost more than $50 per copy, leading to thousands of dollars just to keep hold times down to a few months. If the publisher is Harper Collins or Simon and Schuster the price will be more reasonable, but we lose copies as we check them out. For example, say we buy 15 copies that have 52 checkouts each. As soon as we've checked those 15 copies out 52 times, we're down to 14 copies. It is very challenging and if we exerted influence, it would not be like this. And our that our most popular device, the Kindle, is controlled by a vendor that is fanatical about its control over the service and was dragged kicking and screaming into working with libraries. But physical materials still remain our most popular items. E-book sales have stagnated at around 35% (not including Amazon's nebulous self-publishing numbers) and we've seen the same in libraries. That makes it difficult to shift staff. As a colleague of mine once said, "In government I can't lay everyone off and rehire people with the right skills". Over time it will work out, but in the short term the budgetary challenges are limiting access. All that said, we are healthy. The library as a physical space and American institution will be OK because people have a strong attachment to the idea and the use case.
  - icantdrive55 9y ago
    Not in the US. How would they charge for looking at reference books. I do wish libraries would buy the right technical/reference books though. I stopped going to my local libraries because it was just book after book of bad fiction, cooking, and gardening. Go to any local library. Look at how big the cooking, and gardening sections are. I know the reason, but just don't want to get into a debate this morning.
- stinkytaco 9y ago
  Not in the US. US libraries are protected under what is referred to as the "first sale" doctrine, meaning that once a physical object is purchased, it's the purchasers prerogative to do whatever they like with it, including loan it. Publishers and libraries have a bit of a love/hate relationship. Even though publishers would like to prevent loaning, libraries buy a lot of material and also purchase quite a bit from the back catalog of titles that would otherwise not sell much any more.
  - belorn 9y ago
    Also not in Sweden, but the government uses a small trick where tax money is diverted to Swedish (exclusively) authors that have a book loaned. This is technically not part of copyright law since Berne convention prohibits countries from making a distinction between authors of different nations.
    - throwaway7645 9y ago
      Are there a lot of writers publishing Swedish only? I'm learning Swedish very slowly, and would love to know how the Nordic languages are fairing amidst English's cultural domination.
      - nugator 9y ago
        It depends on what you would consider a lot. The swedish writers organisation has about 3000 members [1] and 1720 Swedish books of fiction was published 2016 [2]. [1] https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sveriges_F%C3%B6rfattarf%C3%B6rbund?wprov=sfla1 https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sveriges_F%C3%B6rfattarf%C3%B6... [2] http://www.forlaggare.se/den-totala-bokutgivningen-i-sverige http://www.forlaggare.se/den-totala-bokutgivningen-i-sverige
- fellellor 9y ago
  If Elsevier or IEEE had a subscription model priced like Netflix, I'd be glad to give them my money. But as it is, access to academic and research material at low rates, to me is a question of survival. I'm glad and extremely grateful for the work of scholars like Elbakyan. They are basically doing God's work as far as I am concerned.
  - jcoffland 9y ago
    When you sign up for IEEE they SPAM you relentlessly for years even after you close your account. I'm not a fan of the IEEE for that reason or for their highly conservative political stance.
    - throwaway7645 9y ago
      Yes, they use call centers with pressure tactics to get you to keep it up. Almost all EE research is done via an IEEE whitepaper though, so not much of a choice.
krapp 9y ago
> There is no practical difference between a pirate library and a brick and mortar library, except the larger stock of books online. Physical libraries purchase the books they own, own them legally, and can legally lend them out. The practical difference between the two couldn't be more stark - physical libraries operate within the law, pirates operate in spite of it. >My local library even has a photocopier. They don't intend for you to use it to copy the books they lend you, though. There's a reason that libraries don't run printing presses in the back and only carry limited copies of a book - because they depend on copyright law for their survival.
- Dylan16807 9y ago
  > Physical libraries purchase the books they own, own them legally, and can legally lend them out. The practical difference between the two couldn't be more stark - physical libraries operate within the law, pirates operate in spite of it. The law is broken. There is no legal mechanism to lend out a digital file. That's the law's fault, not the lender's fault. > libraries don't run printing presses in the back and only carry limited copies of a book Now that is an important difference. But no one bothers trying to make a lend-only digital library because it's more difficult and no less illegal.
  - syphilis2 9y ago
    Maybe I'm not following the conversation correctly, but plenty of US libraries lend digital copies of books, audiobooks, movies, tv shows, etc.
    - Dylan16807 9y ago
      But they have to get special licenses, at the discretion of the copyright holder. They can't rely on the first sale doctrine.
  - Yetanfou 9y ago
    > The law is broken. There is no legal mechanism to lend out a digital file. That's the law's fault, not the lender's fault. Oh yes, there are laws covering lending out digital files. They might not have been written specifically for the purpose but they're used anyway. Lending out digital files is, as anyone who has an insight in the industry, fraught with all sorts of silly artificial restrictions. In Sweden it is actually much more expensive for a library to lend out a digital publication that a physical one, especially when the publication is recent and popular. Depending on the contract the library has with the publisher they'll have to buy a one-time license any time a publication is lent out, other contracts stipulate a fee per loan plus an artificial 'wear' limit on digital publications. In contrast a physical publication is bought once - at a higher price than that charged in a book shop - after which it can be lent out until it falls apart. I do not borrow digital publications from the library for this reason. Where digital technology could be used to further the mission of libraries it is now used to counter them. How... very much expected. Fortunately there are alternatives, as mentioned in the article.

by resf 9y ago

DanBC 9y ago

You know authors get payments from loans that libraries make, right? (At least, in UK and Ireland) https://www.plr.uk.com/ https://www.plr.uk.com/

delinka 9y ago
I've never heard of such in the US. I'm now reading your link, but I'd like to hear if anyone know of similar arrangements in the US.
- kasey_junk 9y ago
  In the US libraries pay for their physical books, which pay royalties per usual. For digital media they usually have a negotiated rate where they pay royalties and limit the number of copies "out on loan".
  - stinkytaco 9y ago
    Negotiated might be strong term. Most libraries work through middlemen who do that negotiation and are then given a rate that they can take or leave. There's no "shopping around" for digital media since publishers control the pricing and availability. This is proving to be a budgeting challenge since digital media is more expensive that physical. There are no discounts from wholesalers for bulk purchasing. Many libraries get physical media at up to a 40% discount from retail because they buy so much. Of course, digital media does not need to be maintained. It does not need to be cataloged and reshelved; it does not wear out or get damaged. But libraries are still adapting to this shift since there still is a great deal of physical media checking out and that staff is still needed.
    - kasey_junk 9y ago
      The library landscape is surprisingly varied in the United States. Big systems such as New York, Chicago and Los Angelos exert a huge amount of control on the "middle men" that service them (and a 40% discount is where all systems start and always have). This is of course not surprising. Like all parts of the book industry the ecosystem surrounding libraries is changing very fast. The digital media side is not as clear as you are making it out to be. Publishers do not in fact set the pricing and availability, because the publishers don't particularly want to be in the business of servicing libraries (just like they don't want to be in the business of library binding and cataloging) so they have to allow third parties the ability to do some negotiations. In many ways its just like physical books (the cost of physical books is largely not the act of creating the physical copy). The difference is that the classic rift between desires of libraries and publishers is more stark with electronic books. Libraries want to provide access as cheaply as possible usually as a governmental agency and publishers want to have a profitable business. That doesn't even begin to talk about the existential crisis libraries are going through. Its a fairly interesting thing to watch as an outside observer. I don't work in this space but my wife does and I've had drinks with enough publishers, jobbers and librarians to see it as fascinating
      - Alysha3434 9y ago
        I get paid over $95 per hour working from home with 2 kids at home. I never thought I'd be able to do it but my best friend earns over 10k a month doing this and she convinced me to try. The potential with this is endless. Heres what I've been doing, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfJ3KWPnqqs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfJ3KWPnqqs
      - stinkytaco 9y ago
        I am a librarian who works with digital media, so I see this industry close up as part of my job. So a few things: The vast majority of libraries are not NYPL, LAPL, King County PL, etc. Most are medium to small and servicing almost every town in the United States. They are arranged in a dizzying array of geographic, bureaucratic and budgetary configurations. I once worked with a library that was a unified system with shelf level access to items, but every municipality funded its own local branch, so money went into a central system and had to be accounted for when purchasing items. They handled 15 different budgets. It was staggering. This make negotiation impossible. We rely on vendors like Overdrive, Baker and Taylor, Midwest Tape, Recorded Books, etc, to provide access to digital materials. And though there are sales, digital materials are unquestionably more expensive. I work in a system with a service population of about 500,000 (it's a statewide consortia of local libraries), and hold lists can run into the 100s for a popular title. If the title is from Penguin Random House, it will likely cost more than $50 per copy, leading to thousands of dollars just to keep hold times down to a few months. If the publisher is Harper Collins or Simon and Schuster the price will be more reasonable, but we lose copies as we check them out. For example, say we buy 15 copies that have 52 checkouts each. As soon as we've checked those 15 copies out 52 times, we're down to 14 copies. It is very challenging and if we exerted influence, it would not be like this. And our that our most popular device, the Kindle, is controlled by a vendor that is fanatical about its control over the service and was dragged kicking and screaming into working with libraries. But physical materials still remain our most popular items. E-book sales have stagnated at around 35% (not including Amazon's nebulous self-publishing numbers) and we've seen the same in libraries. That makes it difficult to shift staff. As a colleague of mine once said, "In government I can't lay everyone off and rehire people with the right skills". Over time it will work out, but in the short term the budgetary challenges are limiting access. All that said, we are healthy. The library as a physical space and American institution will be OK because people have a strong attachment to the idea and the use case.
- icantdrive55 9y ago
  Not in the US. How would they charge for looking at reference books. I do wish libraries would buy the right technical/reference books though. I stopped going to my local libraries because it was just book after book of bad fiction, cooking, and gardening. Go to any local library. Look at how big the cooking, and gardening sections are. I know the reason, but just don't want to get into a debate this morning.
stinkytaco 9y ago
Not in the US. US libraries are protected under what is referred to as the "first sale" doctrine, meaning that once a physical object is purchased, it's the purchasers prerogative to do whatever they like with it, including loan it. Publishers and libraries have a bit of a love/hate relationship. Even though publishers would like to prevent loaning, libraries buy a lot of material and also purchase quite a bit from the back catalog of titles that would otherwise not sell much any more.
- belorn 9y ago
  Also not in Sweden, but the government uses a small trick where tax money is diverted to Swedish (exclusively) authors that have a book loaned. This is technically not part of copyright law since Berne convention prohibits countries from making a distinction between authors of different nations.
  - throwaway7645 9y ago
    Are there a lot of writers publishing Swedish only? I'm learning Swedish very slowly, and would love to know how the Nordic languages are fairing amidst English's cultural domination.
    - nugator 9y ago
      It depends on what you would consider a lot. The swedish writers organisation has about 3000 members [1] and 1720 Swedish books of fiction was published 2016 [2]. [1] https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sveriges_F%C3%B6rfattarf%C3%B6rbund?wprov=sfla1 https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sveriges_F%C3%B6rfattarf%C3%B6... [2] http://www.forlaggare.se/den-totala-bokutgivningen-i-sverige http://www.forlaggare.se/den-totala-bokutgivningen-i-sverige
fellellor 9y ago
If Elsevier or IEEE had a subscription model priced like Netflix, I'd be glad to give them my money. But as it is, access to academic and research material at low rates, to me is a question of survival. I'm glad and extremely grateful for the work of scholars like Elbakyan. They are basically doing God's work as far as I am concerned.
- jcoffland 9y ago
  When you sign up for IEEE they SPAM you relentlessly for years even after you close your account. I'm not a fan of the IEEE for that reason or for their highly conservative political stance.
  - throwaway7645 9y ago
    Yes, they use call centers with pressure tactics to get you to keep it up. Almost all EE research is done via an IEEE whitepaper though, so not much of a choice.

krapp 9y ago

> There is no practical difference between a pirate library and a brick and mortar library, except the larger stock of books online. Physical libraries purchase the books they own, own them legally, and can legally lend them out. The practical difference between the two couldn't be more stark - physical libraries operate within the law, pirates operate in spite of it. >My local library even has a photocopier. They don't intend for you to use it to copy the books they lend you, though. There's a reason that libraries don't run printing presses in the back and only carry limited copies of a book - because they depend on copyright law for their survival.

Dylan16807 9y ago
> Physical libraries purchase the books they own, own them legally, and can legally lend them out. The practical difference between the two couldn't be more stark - physical libraries operate within the law, pirates operate in spite of it. The law is broken. There is no legal mechanism to lend out a digital file. That's the law's fault, not the lender's fault. > libraries don't run printing presses in the back and only carry limited copies of a book Now that is an important difference. But no one bothers trying to make a lend-only digital library because it's more difficult and no less illegal.
- syphilis2 9y ago
  Maybe I'm not following the conversation correctly, but plenty of US libraries lend digital copies of books, audiobooks, movies, tv shows, etc.
  - Dylan16807 9y ago
    But they have to get special licenses, at the discretion of the copyright holder. They can't rely on the first sale doctrine.
- Yetanfou 9y ago
  > The law is broken. There is no legal mechanism to lend out a digital file. That's the law's fault, not the lender's fault. Oh yes, there are laws covering lending out digital files. They might not have been written specifically for the purpose but they're used anyway. Lending out digital files is, as anyone who has an insight in the industry, fraught with all sorts of silly artificial restrictions. In Sweden it is actually much more expensive for a library to lend out a digital publication that a physical one, especially when the publication is recent and popular. Depending on the contract the library has with the publisher they'll have to buy a one-time license any time a publication is lent out, other contracts stipulate a fee per loan plus an artificial 'wear' limit on digital publications. In contrast a physical publication is bought once - at a higher price than that charged in a book shop - after which it can be lent out until it falls apart. I do not borrow digital publications from the library for this reason. Where digital technology could be used to further the mission of libraries it is now used to counter them. How... very much expected. Fortunately there are alternatives, as mentioned in the article.