8 ms·
Working in a Prison Goat Milk Farm
- kbart 9y ago"Michael Allen, the activist who got Whole Foods to stop selling Haystack Mountain's goat cheese, says he understands why prisoners like having those jobs. But he'll keep fighting against prison labor until the workers get paid better." I don't follow such logic. Inmates get free shelter, free food, free healthcare (well, taxpayers pay for it, but that's another topic), so it's only fair that they make up some of it by providing labor imho. Do such activists honestly propose paying them market rates? How about people living on minimum wage then that get to pay for everything themselves? Also, many people go to prison without any job experience, providing them with some increase their chances of reintegration to society. And just look at the place of that farm (pictured in the article), I myself would accept some wage cut to work in a place with such view.
- pyrale 9y ago"How about people living on minimum wage then that get to pay for everything themselves?" How about them? Is it not a fundamentally flawed system when workers at the bottom of the scale wonder if they wouldn't be better off in prison? How do they feel about having to compete with forced labour? What entitles consumers to pay sub-living wages in order to benefit from a product? This reminds me of people feeling entitled to pay shit prices for some services because "it's just a student job". "Also, many people go to prison without any job experience, providing them with some increase their chances of reintegration to society." yeah, by forming them to a job that can apparently no longer sustain a free farmer.
- rdtsc 9y agoSadly enough it is true. I was told in some colder areas homeless people would commit a crime they know would amount to a few months prison sentence in the fall just to have a reliable shelter and food for the winter. Or there was a story of a man who robbed a bank then waited for the police to come so he could get some cancer treatment while in prison. When these things happen there is something very very wrong in a society
- PixelB 9y agoThe US seems to be experiencing more and more instances of "desperate" people in all senses. Desperate for jobs, healthcare, food, shelter, happiness.
- mtgx 9y agoYou're conflating multiple issues. 1) Just because you're in prison, doesn't mean you deserve to be treated like a work animal. Some people are in there for serial murders, while the vast majority are there for theft, tax fraud, smoking marijuana, etc - maybe even for "resisting arrest". 2) Even if what you said made "economic sense", while disregarding any human rights the prisoners might have, the problem is that many (or most?) of the prisoners are now in private prisons. That means those prisons get both the taxpayer money and the free labor. So both the taxpayers and the prisoners lose, while the private prisons score a double-win. Do you think that's how it should work, too?
- icebraining 9y agothe problem is that many (or most?) of the prisoners are now in private prisons It's actually around 8%: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/04/11/u-s-private-prison-population-has-declined-in-recent-years/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/04/11/u-s-private-...
- lsiebert 9y agohttp://time.com/4596081/incarceration-report/ http://time.com/4596081/incarceration-report/ 39% of prisoners shouldn't be in prison. Per Time magazine, not exactly the most liberal news publication I can think of. Prison labor transfers wealth from prisoners by paying them less so that the companies that employ them can save money.
- Spooky23 9y agoThe labor issue isn't a clear cut ethical no-no. Working to a productive end is one of the few rehabilitative avenues available. I'm pretty sure these type of jobs are seen as sought after privileges. Private prisons are most often jails (ie. short term, not places that do this) and do not represent the majority of prisoners. Sometimes advocates publish misleading figures about this by focusing on prisoners staying in contracted out facilities. The majority of those are prison beds in county jails. These are used to relieve over crowding, house prisoners closer to trial location or otherwise reduce transport. In some places, counties run these as a revenue generator.
- glibgil 9y agoYou are promoting slavery
- silassales 9y agoYou are promoting illegal activity.
- Broken_Hippo 9y agoThere are prison systems that don't force their inmates into slave labor. Being against slavery, even in the prisons, is not promoting illegal activity in any sense.
- _wdh 9y agoThe problem with this is that allowing prison labour to be cheaper than free labour puts competitors out of business and gives incentives to the state and business lobbyists to arrest more people for the sake of profit instead of reformation or containment.
- IanCal 9y agoThere are two different approaches to this that are the same on the outside. Paying the workers more is one, the other is charging a minimum for their time, but X% of their earned wages go to some other entity (the government directly, victim support, community projects). This would help the issue with competition, but not necessarily the other issues. It also doesn't touch the moral aspect of how much people should get paid.
- PixelB 9y agoGet rid of private prisons, period. You can even keep the same business model except instead of the profits going to a corporation, the system is run as a non-profit government entity and the workers are actually paid a fair wage. As it is right now, we have slaves working to enrich CEOs, board members and investors.
- icebraining 9y agoYou can even keep the same business model except instead of the profits going to a corporation, the system is run as a non-profit government entity Which is exactly what's happening in this case. There's no private corporation, it's a governmental division, yet the inmates are still paid a pittance. Maybe you should review your preconception of private industry vs government.
- pbhjpbhj 9y agoYou could require the prisoners be paid out of the segregated finances of the dairy and simultaneously garnish that pay to assist in paying the same prisoners living costs. Or perhaps make products that either aren't cost effective for market, or solely to serve food-banks or other charities?
- icebraining 9y agoYou could require the prisoners be paid out of the segregated finances of the dairy and simultaneously garnish that pay to assist in paying the same prisoners living costs. I think that's essentially what's happening here.
- 3131s 9y agoThe point is to reward prisoners for being functional and using their time constructively. It's important to give prisoners every chance to become habituated to a normal life.
- vinceguidry 9y ago> Inmates get free shelter, free food, free healthcare (well, taxpayers pay for it, but that's another topic), so it's only fair that they make up some of it by providing labor imho. You call these things free? If I shot you in the head, would you consider it me giving you a free bullet?
- zrth 9y ago(OT: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullet_fee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullet_fee & http://ask.metafilter.com/196673/Did-China-ever-actually-send-prisoners-families-a-bill-for-the-bullet http://ask.metafilter.com/196673/Did-China-ever-actually-sen... ; Apparently its an urban myth at least for china though)
- crispyambulance 9y ago> I myself would accept some wage cut to work in a place with such view. Would you take a wage cut down to $1 dollar a day? And if so, would you still do that putting yourself into the shoes of the inmates who face grim job prospects as ex-felons when they get out regardless of their work history?
- silassales 9y agoYou acting like those inmates didn't put themselves there? Oh I feel so bad for them that they made the choice to break the law.
- crispyambulance 9y agoSure, the inmates may "deserve" to be in prison but they're also human beings and NOT slaves. It is morally unacceptable that anyone can profit from slave labor in a free country. Moreover, it also hurts honest businesses who are required to pay their workers normal wages.
- icebraining 9y agoWho is profiting here?
- crispyambulance 9y agoHaystack Mountain, every business in its sales channels and whoever else buys goat milk made by people earning $1/day.
- silassales 9y agoNo, the prison uses the money they make from the sales for the prison, that was in the article. Haystack would still have bought the milk for standard price, and sell their cheese at standard price. The extra money from the cheap labor when into the prison itself.
- wfo 9y agoYes, life is horrifying for people on minimum wage. Why not make life better for people out of prison rather than exploit people in prison and then hold them up by comparison to the free but brutally impoverished ones and say "look how great you have it, you're not doing slave labor!" Supposedly rehabilitation is a goal of prison; how nice would it be if prisoners walked out with a small nest egg, to help them get settled and survive while they go through the impossibly difficult task of finding a job with a criminal record? Right now, it's very tempting to go straight back into crime or drugs since these are the only career opportunities available. Maybe saving at minimum wage for 5 years would give them enough money to for the first time in their life feel safe, or enough capital to invest in something that could make their lives better, like tools, a business, etc. Maybe they could get some fulfillment and feel like they are part of a social unit by sending money back to their family while in prison. Maybe if they are paid the market value of their labor they will develop confidence that their labor is worth something and a viable alternative to, say, crime. And yes prison is expensive for the state, but that's the state's problem and provides no justification for exploitation. The state can't do something unspeakable to you like lock you in a cage to be beaten and raped for decades and then make you pay for it. If prison is too expensive, the state should imprison fewer people. There are far more economically efficient alternatives to locking up millions and throwing away the key (like improving conditions for the poor!); the state is making a stupid, cruel, and horrible choice and it should pay the full price for it or it has no incentive to make a better one.
- qq66 9y agoThe biggest harm from these prison labor businesses is not to the prisoners (who, in the article, say it's better than their alternative), but to the other dairies out there who have to compete with businesses employing Thirteenth Amendment slave labor. As the article points out, non-prison dairies have a tough time staying in business, due in likely no small part to a taxpayer subsidized competitor who doesn't really have to pay their staff.
- coldcode 9y agoThe purchasers pay market rates. The prison makes the money, which I can see being wrong, but that doesn't change the fact that competitors are not being harmed. If the price was below market then you would have a point, but it isn't in this case.
- clort 9y agoSurely though, when there are more traders in the marketplace selling the same thing, the price will be lower due to competition? In cases like this the prison farm can always afford to sell at the lowest price since they don't have the same costs as others..
- mathattack 9y agoExactly - as the low cost producer, they can drive prices down. Everyone pays the same "market" rate. And they can bid up supply costs.
- ajnin 9y agoInteresting world we live in, where slave labour is considered a smaller issue than a company's lost profits.
- GhostVII 9y agoThe prisoners all said they liked working much more than they liked being in prison, so so wouldn't really call it "slave labour" And even if they didn't like it, how is forcing them to do some work any worse than forcing them to be in prison? In both cases you are forcing them to do something they don't want to do.
- antman 9y ago"In the years after Haystack Mountain started making cheese, one of the company's biggest problems was finding a reliable source of goat milk. Jim Schott's small farm couldn't produce enough on its own, and every outside supplier eventually went out of business." Any competitor will get out of business if you have to pay your forced labor only 1$ a day.
- _Marak_ 9y agoThat's not how the timeline of the article reads. The prison was the last resort after the other suppliers went out of business. From the article, it says they were weeks away from no cheese at all. The prison specifically stepped up the market demand. They didn't push other's out of the market. Haystack is paying market price for the milk. They are paying full value for the milk and they aren't paying the labor costs of the prisoners. They are buying milk.
- o- 9y ago"It's a great thing," Pate tells me. "It beats the alternative. Rather than sitting in your tiny little cell, you get to come out here." Completely voluntary to work there though, of course.
- Lazare 9y agoPrison labour is deeply problematic for ethical reasons, but I think a lot of commentators here are misunderstanding the economics of it. Haystack Mountain is not getting subsidised milk; they're paying market rates. The dairy is a profit centre for the prison (which in this case is government operated), used to defray operational costs. The prisoner's get paid a pittance, but that helps out the prison; not Haystack (or the grocery stores or eventual consumers). Nobody in the production chain is going to give their output away below market rate just because they got cheap inputs. Similarly, people suggesting that the competition is putting other dairies out of business are off the mark, because again, the prison dairy is selling their product at market rates. And in this particular case, the prison dairy was set up after Haystack Mountain's supplier closed, threatening to force them out of business; they didn't close in response to the prison dairy closing. The deeply troubling issue described in the article is forced labour, where the government can throw you in prison and then force you to work for (basically) free. Cheap cheese (or goat milk) is 1) not an ethical issue and 2) not actually happening.
- freeflight 9y agoImho it's not as simple as that, the article has a paragraph who puts it in some perspective: "Nobody wants to have a big goat dairy, so we did it," Joey Grisenti says. This farm, with its guaranteed supply of low-cost workers, can survive when other farms cannot. "A lot of people just can't afford to have the manpower that we have here," he says.". What does this say? That goat diaries seem to be an unprofitable business unless you've got a "guaranteed supply of low-cost workers". So either goat milk products are being sold too cheap or the process of goat milking needs to be made less labor intensive. Whatever the solution might be, one thing is for certain: These "guaranteed low-cost workers" sure as hell ain't gonna make it easier for any private competition to join the market, at least if said competition wants to pay their labor fair living wages and still stay competitive. Then there's also the fact that plenty of countries around the world manage to produce goat milk just fine, without having to employ prison labor, among them, even developed EU countries like France, Spain, Greece or the Netherlands. Countries with way higher labor costs compared to the US, yet there seems to be no shortage of goat milk there?
- tacostakohashi 9y agoAn interesting lesson about authenticity and transparency here. The problem here isn't so much that the prison labor is inherently unethical (it may or may not be), but when people buy cheese at Whole Foods, they assume it's being made by happy people living their dream on a farm they own. When that turns out not to be true, it's a problem. If you find out about it from an activist and not from the supplier themselves, that makes it worse. Seems like Haystack could use this as part of their marketing story - put a note on the cheese about it, about how they are providing meaningful work for prisoners, it's better than working inside in a factory, it gives them skills for when they get out.
- PixelB 9y ago>>it's better than working inside in a factory, it gives them skills for when they get out. That argument starts to fall apart when you think about it: The skills they are gaining are only applicable to an industry that is unsustainable outside of slave labor. Luckily, most people don't think about it and just take what they read at face value.
- icebraining 9y agoWould you say that if you were to switch industries right now, none of what you've experienced in your working life would be useful in your new profession?
- wfo 9y agoI don't think anyone was ever necessarily under the impression these workers are all landowners living dream lives in some socialist utopia. They just didn't think they were eating products created literally through domestic slave labor.
- gwern 9y agohttps://blog.jaibot.com/the-copenhagen-interpretation-of-ethics/ https://blog.jaibot.com/the-copenhagen-interpretation-of-eth...
- bowlingx 9y agoInteresting article...I think the real inmates are the goats here.
- alistproducer2 9y agoI recommend that everyone watch the Netflix documentary "13th." The central theme is that slavery has never stopped being legal in the United States it just moved to the prison system. Below is the text of that amendment. Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
- weberc2 9y agoThis is probably a native question, but couldn't the ethical qualms be largely resolved by making labor voluntary (if it isn't already).