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Why I left Japan after 10 years

• valentinebm 9y ago
  Quick remark: the Chinese text on the 5th picture (below 'JAPANESE ONLY') reads '謝絕中中國人'. This literally means 'Decline Chinese people', suggesting that the place is specifically not willing to receive to Chinese visitors. Thought it might be interesting to point out.
  • danso 9y ago
    Someone else in this discussion has pointed out that it makes sense that the Chinese is targeted at Chinese, as most English speaking folk don't know Chinese. And the English phrase is purposefully broad because English-speaking foreigners could be from a huge variety of countries.
    • valentinebm 9y ago
      Makes sense. Still, wondering why the Chinese is purposefully so narrow and doesn't read '谢绝外国人‘ (no foreigners) instead of '谢绝中国人' (no Chinese people).
      • scott_karana 9y ago
        Leaves no room for misinterpretation, like we're already seeing in this thread. A Chinese tourist, seeing a sign with unintelligible English plus "No foreigners" written in Hanzi/Kanji, could assume they're not foreign, since they're not Anglophone...
  • valentinebm 9y ago
    Correction: it reads '谢绝中国人' - made a typo when translating from traditional characters (which I use) to simplified.
• ThrowAwayInd 9y ago
  I don't know Man, pople visit India here and have very disrespectful behavior, most US and UK people. Most other countries are okay. They think they are more "civilized" and hence get to lecture people on what to do and what not to do. Fix your own problems first! And even when you do, don't lecture us, we'll fix our "problems" ourselves.
  • fra 9y ago
    This person shows you an overt example of racism - even one with a "Japanese only" picture! - and you find nothing better to do than cast doubt on his account and complain about tourists in your country.
  • deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  • Jamieee 9y ago
    I was under the impression that India was considered one of the most racist/sexist countries on the planet.
    • sacheendra 9y ago
      I wouldn't say most. Racism and sexism are a problem in India though. But that doesn't give anyone an excuse to be rude and disrespectful.
    • TheArcane 9y ago
      Definitely one of the most.
  • cconcepts 9y ago
    As a foreigner who lived in India for many years I wholeheartedly agree. I often felt embarassed by the way other foreigners acted in India, dressing inappropriately, being know-it-alls....I probably fell into this category at times. Indians are generally such hospitable people that they don't say much but I can't imagine the response if a foreigner went to a western country and started telling everyone what was wrong with their country and dressing in ways deemed inappropriate for that country...
• d1ffuz0r 9y ago
  Come to Russia instead, it's the best to be for a foreigner
  • Grue3 9y ago
    Lol. Literally every single one of his complaints is even worse in Russia. Hating foreigners? They teach us that from kindergarten. Police doesn't like you? You're screwed completely. And god help you if your skin is even slightly darker than white (or if you happen to be gay).
    • Veratyr 9y ago
      It might be because I married a Russian but when I visited, Russians were nothing but welcoming, even strangers unknown both to my wife and me.
    • deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
  • reachtarunhere 9y ago
    Is this sarcastic? Just curious.
• ThrowAwayInd 9y ago
  > Policemen are everywhere, more than London There's a reason why London has had more than 20 people killed this year in terrorist incidents and Japan has 0. London has crime, Japan doesn't. Also, your attitude comes as realy hostile in your blog, maybe it was your body language that caused that? I'm sick of these "i'm superior to you" white boys
  • deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  • marak830 9y ago
    Japan does have crime. What the hell are you on about? My work mates house was broken into a few weeks ago.
  • s_kilk 9y ago
    > London has crime, Japan doesn't. This reminds me of being in University and listening to insufferable weebs going on about how Japan was a pure society with no crime, no poverty, no problems whatsoever.
  • frozenport 9y ago
    3/5 you missed the chance to connect lack of foreigners to low crime rates.
    • tormeh 9y ago
      Japan has a very special culture that keeps crime low. It would get watered down with immigration. I don't see how those are not widely accepted facts, and I don't see how the conclusion can be anything else than that higher immigration would lead to more crime in Japan. Now, personally, I don't really like Japanese culture, and more crime is a price I'm willing to pay to not live in such a hierarchical, conservative and authoritarian(?) society. But let's not pretend that a culture like Japan's have no benefits or that it could withstand massive immigration without changing.
      • frozenport 9y ago
• lordnacho 9y ago
  I suspect that feeling of being unwelcome would strike you in many countries. As far as I can tell, there's only a few cities around the world where my being foreign was a non-issue. I lived in Switzerland for a good few years, but although there are plenty of friendly people, the few people who weren't so friendly soured things. I suspect a different roll of the dice would have made it a much nicer experience. You could tell you were getting the "foreigner rate" on quotes to fix things around your house. How do you know? You get a person who speaks the local language to ask for a quote. People didn't trust me either. I got sued because a guy who I'd contracted to do some work wanted to get paid. He hadn't done the work, another guy had. But that didn't stop him from suing me. When I got to the pre-court hearing I found out the arbitrator was a friend of his. You also get it thrown in your face that "this is how it is around here". With the understanding that of course you are only there for the tax rate and the skiing. This was particularly scary as a colleague of mine had his kids bullied in school, and was somehow expected to climb out of that hole himself. But I doubt this sort of thing is particular to any country. People will always deal with the unfamiliar with some caution. You're always going to have language and cultural disadvantages.
  • Symbiote 9y ago
    In Europe, Switzerland is known to be particularly unwelcoming to foreigners. "Out of 67 countries, Switzerland ranks 64th for friendliness and making newcomers feel welcome" http://lenews.ch/2016/09/02/expats-in-switzerland-arent-feeling-the-love-says-a-new-survey-measuring-quality-of-life/ http://lenews.ch/2016/09/02/expats-in-switzerland-arent-feel...
    • saiya-jin 9y ago
      Disclaimer - I am a foreigner in Switzerland. It's a bit distorted - it is a country with by far the highest immigration population in whole europe, if not whole world. If they simply didn't want foreigners in their country, they can tweak working/residence permit situation so that most wouldn't qualify. They do and welcome them/us, BUT - you have to adapt and learn the language(s). Many, especially english-speaking expats, do have serious issues with this. If you just roll in arrogantly and expect that your english will be enough and people will be coming to you in crowds to be your friends, then it it might not (or it might, depends). Simply because most of the country is full of similar people. Don't expect magic in some remote tiny valley, like anywhere. That said, I am one living in french part who doesn't speak French properly, and I am just fine. It will help me a lot to learn it properly, my biggest TODO for near future. If I would be almost anywhere in France for example, I would be properly screwed without +-good level of french.
• ThrowAway29112 9y ago
  ...
  • EliRivers 9y ago
    I'm glad people like him weren't allowed in our country. What country do you come from that denies entry to people based on how they translate Japanese signs? You're full of shit. Not surprised you hide behind a throwaway.
    • ThrowAway29112 9y ago
      Are you for real? Go read the article, he knows Japanese. And there's your civility, acting all indignant and calling people full of shit without bothering to understand what's going on. Maybe you are the throwaway of author's?
      • dang 9y ago
        We've banned this account for trolling, and since you've done this repeatedly, we've banned what I believe to be your main account as well. If you don't want to be banned on HN, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and promise that this will never happen again.
      • EliRivers 9y ago
        Civility? I made no guarantee of civility to you. I asked you what country you come from that excludes people based on, as you stated, how they interpret Japanese signs. No such country, as we all know. You're talking nonsense, and now that you've been called out on it, you're pretending this is about something else. Look at you now, deleting your comments even though you're using a throwaway! The whole point of the throwaway is that nobody can tie it to the person you usually pretend to be, but you're running away anyway. Nobody benefits from this; not you, not me, nobody here. God's sake, owning your beliefs is a necessary step to improving them. Not just in this situation; always. Here, look, I'll start; I was unnecessarily harsh in my opening response and could have handled that better. This is an opportunity for both of us to improve. I didn't consider that you might be Japanese and that you might feel defensive; it can be hard to critique your own nation/culture with foreigners (although being from the UK, it's easy for me; sometimes it would be nice to spend a day without having some new clusterf from the embarrassing shambles of a UK government and broader population at large) and perhaps I could have helped you come out of your defensive shell.
• dintech 9y ago
  Most of thos stuff, you work out after a few months in Japan. I get the feeling there is more that the author's personal situation that he isn't saying. After 10 years, I really expect a deeper and more nuanced critique. The most difficult experiences in Japan come from not really knowing people more than what they want to show you. The Japanese are masters of the 'public face'. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honne_and_tatemae https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honne_and_tatemae
  • sho 9y ago
    > I get the feeling there is more that the author's personal situation that he isn't saying Yes, I definitely think so too. And the article about cycling in tokyo he links to [1] hints at this more. I've cycled very extensively in tokyo over the years i lived there and the experience he describes sounds, ironically, totally foreign to me. Tokyo's a wonderful and extremely safe place to cycle, which is of course why millions of people do so. To see such an inexplicably and exaggeratedly negative rant about something I rarely had anything but positive experiences with makes me think there's more than a few personal issues colouring the author's viewpoint. > "the vast majority of cyclists in Tokyo are criminally irresponsible" I mean that is just a ludicrous assertion which basically makes me ignore whatever else the author has to say. No wonder he gets dismissed in arguments if that's the sort of thing he comes out with. There are plenty of examples in the article which are equally foreign to me (repeated intimidation during gaijin card checks? Huh? I had one, ever, and they were unfailingly polite). Japan isn't perfect, not even close, but it's not this bad. [1] http://blog.uchujin.co.uk/2012/07/cycling-in-tokyo-irresponsibility-incompetence/ http://blog.uchujin.co.uk/2012/07/cycling-in-tokyo-irrespons...
    • Tharkun 9y ago
      I had the same reaction reading their cyclist rant. Even the video made no sense. It show a couple of cyclists committing minor trafic infractions, but apparently those are "criminally irresponsible" acts. It's their blog, so they're welcome to bitch and moan as much as they want. But this strikes me as one of those people who are frequently told to lighten up.
• oskarth 9y ago
  I don't understand. Why did the person stay for 10 years? This seems like something you notice after 1 year, or even a few months, let alone 10 years. Is there some family context here that is missing?
  • peteretep 9y ago
    Yes. You're missing the bellcurve of frustration he described, and I recognize it from other countries I've lived in. At first, you think you're a bit on the outside because you don't know very much and don't speak the language, and you tend to attribute things to your own ignorance. As you learn more, more and more of the country opens up to you. You make some local friends, you can survive in a small town where no-one speaks English for a few days, and you can have some experiences not available to tourists. As you learn even more, you notice little slights you didn't notice before -- he gives the example of honorifics. You understand the nuances of comments people make to you. You realize that you'll never be accepted or taken seriously for who you are, you'll always just be an outside.
  • kikimaru 9y ago
    He is (was?) married to a Japanese woman.
• mrkrabo 9y ago
  This sounds akin to people threatening to leave the US if Trump wins. "This society is not liberal enough so bye". I think part of living in society is accepting not everybody thinks the way you do.
  • CalRobert 9y ago
    Eventually you hit a breaking point when it seems like not _anybody_ thinks the way you do, and leave. For me, it was (among other things) hearing colleagues joke about murdering bicyclists, while I stood there with helmet in hand, having nearly been killed every morning.
• lavarendex6 9y ago
  The article is full of whining about imaginary BS like gender-bias and the writer seems to be doing everything is his/her power to look for problems that really don't exist like complaining about the word "foreigner" and trying to find racism or discrimination in everything. Japan may have it's problems but this is ridiculous.
  • spin 9y ago
    I'm an American living in Japan (about 12 years now). Most of the stuff he's talking about is totally true. But, like some other commenters have been saying, I feel like: you figure that stuff out after a couple years and make peace with it (or not). There are many good and bad things about Japan. And it's different if you're a foreigner in Japan, yes. And it depends on where you're from and what color your skin is, etc. My only question is why did it take him 10 years to "get fed up" with it? Most people who leave do so after a year or so. Most people who stay longer than a couple years tend to stay for a very long time.
    • ramchip 9y ago
      I think some of the points are really exaggerated. Take this: > That’s not to say that some nasty malice isn’t present because it most definitely is. I lost count of the times when, say, for example, politely pointing out to someone that there was a queue and they shouldn’t push in that the immediate response was a very angry “BAKA GAIJIN” (stupid foreigner). Really, that happened often enough that he "lost count"? In 7 years, I haven't seen anything close to this.
      • spin 9y ago
        Hmm, yeah, that's never happened to me, either. I've never been assaulted, either. I have been harassed by other foreigners though, but that's almost always in the "seedy" areas, like Roppongi or Kabukicho. I rarely, if ever get harassed by the police. But I know some Asian-American friends who get harassed... eg: the cop thinks he's Vietnamese, so starts giving him trouble. When the cop finds out he's from the U.S., all of a sudden the cop starts acting totally nice. I'd call that racism.
• deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
• arnioxux 9y ago
  The "JAPANESE ONLY" sign was probably meant for chinese tourists. The kanji below it, "謝绝中国人", translates roughly to "decline chinese people" which is understandable given their notorious behavior abroad: http://shanghaiist.com/2016/12/30/shanghaiist_2016_embarrassing_tourists.php http://shanghaiist.com/2016/12/30/shanghaiist_2016_embarrass... https://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/11/world/asia/bad-manners-china-tourism-blacklist.html https://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/11/world/asia/bad-manners-ch... http://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2016/10/07/commentary/world-commentary/chinese-tourists-badly-behaved/#.WW8YmHXyttg http://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2016/10/07/commentary/wo...
  • yorwba 9y ago
    "謝绝中国人" doesn't match what I know about Japanese grammar, but does match Chinese grammar. So I would expect the bilingual sign to be directed towards all foreigners. Once in English ("Japanese only") for everyone who speaks it, and once in Chinese to directly address Chinese tourists (who might not speak English).
    • markburns 9y ago
      FYI I think the 绝 is only Simplified Chinese, 絕 in Traditional. I think 絶 is the Japanese equivalent.
      • yorwba 9y ago
        Right, I only copied the text from my parent comment, without checking that it actually matches the original. My point about the grammar stands, though. I think they simply wrote Chinese text using Japanese kanji. Simplified Chinese would be "(谢绝)(中国人)" = "(politely refuse)(Chinese person)" = "(verb)(object)", which is correct Chinese grammar. However, 謝絶 seems to be a noun/suru verb in Japanese (http://jisho.org/search/謝絶 http://jisho.org/search/謝絶), so I think the equivalent phrase would be "(中国人)(を)(謝絶)(します)" = "(Chinese person)(object of)(polite refusal)(make)" = "(object)(particle marking object)(noun/suru verb)(inflected form of suru)". Disclaimer: I am not a native speaker of either language and didn't have much in the way of grammar lessons, so this might all be horribly wrong. I'm definitely open to corrections ;)
• staticelf 9y ago
  Just came back after a month of vacation in Japan. Honestly, I saw like 3 police cars on the entire journey and I saw more police officers in the airport than the rest of the trip. I come from Sweden, a relatively safe country. However, compared to Japan it is not. I felt incredible safe in Japan. Everyone is super friendly but hard to talk to since they don't generally won't speak english. I wanted to meet some japanese people and make some friends while I was there but it was harder than I thought it would be. This is probably the only critisism I have except that they should install a lot more garbage bins and learn that a sidewalk is not a good place to bike on. Why not make better sidewalks and a bike lane?
• madaxe_again 9y ago
  Many of the problems he describes aren't exclusively Japanese, but a few, like the hierarchical view and casual racism are far more particular to the Japanese. It's not hard to understand where it comes from, however - Japan is something of a cultural isolate, and resisted European and others' overtures well into the 19th century - at which point they underwent explosive industrialisation and social upheaval. Then there was the whole mess of their wars of expansion in early 20c., culminating in WWII. Following that, American occupation and control, which ended many decades ago. What I'm getting at is that there's been a huge amount of technical and societal change in Japan over the last 150 years - but not as much social change. You can change how people make their meals, spend their days, travel to work, but you can't shake notions like bushido or sakoku overnight.
  • TheArcane 9y ago
    Perhaps the gender inequality issue too.
• romanovcode 9y ago
  White text on black background - what a horrible choice of colours. Cannot read it for more than 3 minutes.
  • buserror 9y ago
    Right click background, 'Inspect Element' in Chrome, and go unclick all the color properties. And yes, I agree, white on black is always terrible on the eyes! As far as Japan goes, I've never been there, but I interacted/worked with many and I have to say the only thing that I still find quite disturbing is the 'Yes' problem. I remember extensive engineering meeting where everyone 'Agreed' and a week later, you realized actually they didn't really mean 'yes' when they agreed. Fun.
  • Brajeshwar 9y ago
    There are few solutions. I've settled on Mercury Reader[1] for now. Makes reading easy on the web. 1. https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/mercury-reader/oknpjjbmpnndlpmnhmekjpocelpnlfdi https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/mercury-reader/okn...
  • kalleboo 9y ago
    Reader mode in Firefox & Safari work great on this page
• ternaryoperator 9y ago
  My experience was totally different in in the main point: the Japanese were unfailingly polite and courteous with me. But, unlike this fellow, I was comfortable being viewed as a foreigner. And always respectful in my expression. (I was also younger than him when I lived there, which might also have made a difference.)
• drops 9y ago
  >The level of English in Japan is shockingly low, despite everyone studying it for 6 years at school. I honestly think it is kept deliberately low >I honestly think it is kept deliberately low Is this guy serious?
  • JMCQ87 9y ago
    Do you think that's an outrageous idea? I imagine lots of (young) Japanese people would look for better working conditions abroad, if they only had better English skills.
    • hulahoof 9y ago
      I did think it was outrageous, however I didn't consider it from this angle. If you were the Japanese government, what method would you use to keep your professionals? They are a country that isn't embracing mass immigration, with an ageing population and slowing economy..
      • mahyarm 9y ago
        The level of english has been like that even when they were in economic boom times 30+ years ago. I don't think it's any specific conspiracy.
    • ekianjo 9y ago
      > I imagine lots of (young) Japanese people would look for better working conditions abroad, if they only had better English skills. AS they don't put intent where the fault is rather at how piss poor people are at doing things. Maybe there is some small part of intent (I live in Japan though and there's a never ending feed of companies that want to teach you proper english everywhere) but I rather suspect that the Japanese education system is just very poor at teaching language in general (and not just English), and that's certainly not limited to Japan.
  • EliRivers 9y ago
    It seems that he is serious. You knew that already. Perhaps you disagree? Perhaps you can present your own findings and contribute to the discussion? Based on my own fairly limited experience in Japan, English as learned in school doesn't seem to translate (a ha ha) into effective English conversation. It seems that an academic rigor is taught (no bad thing, of course) but practical conversation skills are neglected.
• flor1s 9y ago
  I can't agree with all of the author's opinions, though I have lived in Japan for only three years and I don't live in Tokyo. For me the experience has been positive until now. I have met some of the kindest people in the world and I feel welcome in my university and in the research institute I did an internship at. Japanese society has some social quircks which are kind of unsettling for me as a foreigner, but those have not spoiled my stay here.
• norswap 9y ago
  So I guess the vitriol didn't have the time to subside after all. Some interesting points, though.
• mrkrabo 9y ago
  I can understand, bicyclists are fucking annoying, and most of the time they are putting themselves and others in danger. For me, the road is no place for a bicyclist. And, as you can see, there's no possible debate in the west: you have to have bicyclists, otherwise you're a backwards asshole. And I have to live with that, because that's society: you have to deal with people who don't think the way you do. (You just have to look at the downvotes to see what I'm talking about ;P)
  • brucephillips 9y ago
    Cars kill far more people than bicycles, both absolute and per capita, so if that's your measure, then the road is no place for cars.
    • fleitz 9y ago
      Bicycles are far more dangerous. Even more so that motorcycles, most people are smart enough to realize that it's the 20 lb bicycle that loses to 4000 lbs of steel. Danger is calculated in risk per mile, not per capita / absolute. I drive a 4Runner because it has lots of steel and is very safe so that when my kids get into an accident learning to drive they don't die.
      • brucephillips 9y ago
        Sure, but cyclists don't kill other people. Cars do.
      • kikimaru 9y ago
        >I drive a 4Runner because it has lots of steel and is very safe I can't believe I'm seeing this kind of ignorance on HN... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aht7Sc_J4OU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aht7Sc_J4OU
  • ykler 9y ago
    Maybe you are being downvoted because you find it understandable that people are joking about murdering bicyclists in front of this guy. It is possible to have a data-based debate about whether bicyclists increase the rate of accidents and even about whether an appropriate response would be to ban them. Many people feel strongly about this subject, but it is not taboo.
• markburns 9y ago
  It's kind of ironic how much he generalises Japanese people. See bad thing - link to Japanese people as a whole or in general, rather than the individual. It's an easy mistake to make. Especially if you do ever hear it in the inverse direction. "Foreigners do X or Y", etc. If he aimed to replace generic instances of 'Japanese people' or 'in Japan' with specific reference to the instance or person, I think he'd have had a better time in life. And yes, it's difficult to encounter any amount of racism and not feel that the group of people that the racist person came from, do not in fact as a whole demonstrate racist behaviours in general. Obviously not at a higher cognitive level, but at an emotional reacting to a certain way of having been dealt with or treat. But it's absolutely necessary to stop the generalisation, even if only for one's personal mental health. It serves no purpose other than wiring our animal brains up more strongly, to think of us vs them. And try and notice it more often in Western media too. Any time there is a mention of someone's race, see whether it would look out of place with Black or Latino or Asian replaced with white. It's often a completely irrelevant piece of information. As the use of the word Japanese is often irrelevant in this post. Yep lot's of terrible people in lots of places in the world, and the fact that they were Japanese in this instance is more related to the fact that they were born and brought up in Japan than some inherent generic flaws with an entire country of people. And yes Japan has problems that aren't in other parts of the world, and vice versa. It still doesn't befit using `X people do Y` type generalisations.
  • brucephillips 9y ago
    > As the use of the word Japanese is often irrelevant in this post. You think the word "Japanese" is irrelevant in a post describing Japanese culture? Cultures have traits. Some of those traits can be good. Others can be bad. It doesn't mean all of those people exhibit those traits. We shouldn't judge individuals based on those prejudices, but it's equally mistaken to fault people from talking about cultures generally. Half of his post is about the Japanese penal system, which is known to be extremely unfair and broken. This isn't an over generalization. It's a reality, and one that should be discussed soberly.
    • gbog 9y ago
• gonvaled 9y ago
  It is extremely difficult to integrate in a foreign society. Even a good language level will only carry you so far. In my opinion, Western Europe, US and Canada are quite open, and let people, if not integrate, at least mind their own business. Immigrants are usually also to blame, since often integration is not a priority. I've lived in several places around Europe, and usually foreigners stick together: it is easier to become friends with a German in France than it is in Germany, maybe because immigrants have similar mindsets, and experience similar problems. What worries me is that it seems these relatively open societies are rapidly closing: nationalism is on the rise everywhere.
  • popcorncolonel 9y ago
    And here I was thinking the exact opposite would have happened due to the Internet.
• fiblye 9y ago
  I heard the "if you don't like it, leave line" from people all the time in America. Even with the pettiest of political disagreements, people say it. So then I went to Japan and haven't received or heard of anyone receiving similar vitriol aside from the OP. A foreign coworker (same race and nationality as me) endlessly complains about racism, discrimination, and being stared at here. I've experienced none of it. I'm not here to dismiss the author's claims, but most of the weeaboo to Japan hater crowd I've found is people who lived very cushy lives with close family bonds, and when they put that aside in a somewhat "cold" culture, they take offense to everything. As a cold, unsocial person myself, Japan is incredibly welcoming in that I feel like I can finally be left alone without being isolated. I hated having people randomly start conversations with me in America. I disliked the "not my job" attitude of Americans. I very strongly disliked how confrontational and easily angered Americans were (especially how people complained about restaurant services and the minorest of things, while here, it's practically unseen). And then there's the people complaining about being a "foreigner forever." Honestly, how many asians in America get asked,"so, where are you from?" whenever they meet someone? I've seen it countless times. It's just a matter of being on the other end of it now. And then he leads into "I can't believe they don't restrict speech and porn the way we do in my culture." In all honesty, fuck off. This is no better than someone being disgusted by western media showing bare female hair. The standards are subjective.
  • muninn_ 9y ago
    Hmm, the "where are you from" isn't something I buy here. It's pretty obvious if an Asian person is "from" the U.S. and if their English has an accent I see no issues asking if/where they are from. It's a simple conversation starter. If somebody asks me where I'm from, I just tell them the city. It's not a big deal.
  • peteretep 9y ago
    How long have you been there? The bellcurve of frustration he mentions is real.
  • naturalgradient 9y ago
    I have to say I got a similar vibe from his writings, it's hard to pinpoint, but a weird sense of cultural entitlement: 'Why are they not as progressive as me and why don't they appreciate me criticising their culture?'
• _pmf_ 9y ago
  The police situation is something I've never heard of from colleagues who have lived in Japan (5 years ago); is this a recent development?
  • lovemenot 9y ago
    Nope. It's not been my current or previous experience at all. Just two times stopped by police in 20 years. The diversity of apparently sincerely expressed experience on this and most other matters in TFA, makes me wonder whether one's attitude isn't a major contributor to one's treatment.
• codelord 9y ago
  I had very similar experience during a week long visit. I just wonder why it took you 10 years to finally decide to leave. 1 month, 2 or may be 6 is understandable but 10 years?!
• cannonpr 9y ago
  I haven't spent ten years in Japan, but I have spent some time there. Some of his complaints do ring true especially around civil rights, however his experience of it feels very weird. I was praised for my language skills, accepted and invited to family outings, never had issues with restaurants that had no foreigner signs (after I spoke Japanese even badly it was all fine so long as acted within their cultures manners) and the police were nothing but helpful, gave directions etc, outside of Tokyo they even gave me a ride when I miscalculated a hike. So yes I agree Japan has huge issues... however I can't really explain the toxicity of his experience. Yes I'm white non Asian, pretty tall, and pretty certain they won't ever mistake me for a local. They also always used the San or other appropriate honorifics, it helps if you adopt a 'japanified' name and introduce your self that way.
  • ramchip 9y ago
    I feel the same. I've been stopped by the police 0 times in 7 years, never been refused service anywhere, younger people (e.g. in my old university club) always call me ~san or ~sempai, etc. There's real issues with things like the legal system and independence of press, but I think this post wildly exaggerates what it's like to live in Japan as a foreigner. I'm not sure how to explain OP's experience. Maybe he comes off too confrontational? He does call the police "fascists" in another blog post...
  • jalcazar 9y ago
    During my first year in Japan my experience was closer to what you describe, as the years passed it became more like his.
• collyw 9y ago
  Sounds like Japanese are happy with their culture and don't want it changed especially not by foreigners. It seems like a reasonable enough position, but I wonder if there a way to express this desire in a way that couldn't easily be criticized as being "xenopohbic"? Is there something inherently wrong with this attitude? (I personally wouldn't want to be a foreigner living there is what he describes is true, but no one is forcing me to move to Japan).
  • amiga-workbench 9y ago
    It doesn't ring as being particularly Xenophobic to me, they just have a strong cultural backbone unlike the west. I wouldn't even consider moving to another country unless I was prepared to integrate and abide by cultural norms.
    • collyw 9y ago
      Like I say, it seems like a reasonable enough view, yet I can't find a way of describing that view that couldn't easily be criticized as xenophobic. (If I imagine taking any of the attitudes described in the article and doing the same thing here, many people would criticize them as being xenophibic).
      • J-dawg 9y ago
        I guess trying to reverse cultural change will always be seen as more xenophobic than keeping outside influences away in the first place. This is illogical, I suppose, since really they amount to the same thing.
    • honestoHeminway 9y ago
      Congratulations, in the west, you wont have too.
  • brucephillips 9y ago
    > Is there something inherently wrong with this attitude If the culture is good, no. If the culture is bad, yes.
• lkramer 9y ago
  I lived in Japan for 4 years, and afterwards felt in many ways similar, it's a place that can take a lot out of you, especially if you have expectations of fitting in. That said, in my 4 years there, the police was never anything but polite and friendly (I was never once stopped for a bag search or gaijin card check either) and now living in London, I find the police here, while polite and professional, much more intimidating with their open carry of massive guns. (This is not to excuse the very real problems with judicial fairness that have been well documented elsewhere). I think everybody's experience is different, but most foreigners I know who's stayed there long term does seem to develop a sort of exhaustion with the place.
  • peteretep 9y ago
    > with their open carry of massive guns This is an odd comment for a country (and indeed city) where the police are not routinely armed.
    • lkramer 9y ago
      I guess it's largely a response to terrorism, but I routinely see heavily armed policemen at various tube stations.
    • pm215 9y ago
      As a UK citizen, I find that when I see armed police it is inherently intimidating, because the cultural expectation is that police are unarmed and so it represents a massive escalation. (Seeing them in the UK is becoming more common these days as a counter-terrorism thing, though it is still rare, thankfully.)
• a_bonobo 9y ago
  >If you don’t like it leave As a (European) foreigner living in Australia, I hear the same sentence when trying to discuss a problem...
• amake 9y ago
  > I can speak a reasonable level of Japanese This stands out to me. Raising your spoken Japanese from "reasonable" to "excellent" (especially with regards to accent) makes a huge difference in how people interact with you. Likewise a high level of literacy is required as well to navigate daily life without stress. (Of course if you live in an English bubble then YMMV.) Anecdotally, I rarely see these Japan ragequits among people with high-level language skills.
• uniclaude 9y ago
  Except for the police/law part which is obviously scary, I find some of those points to offer quite the silver lining. I have been in Japan for a while, and the fact that you will never be accepted is totally OK for me. I appreciate feeling like an outsider, and as long as people are polite to me and my friends/family, I have no objections to people not calling me uniclaude san. You see, when you're not a white male, it sometimes feel like you're an outsider even in your home country (provided the said country is mostly white), so for the first time, in Japan, I'm not the colored dude, I'm an outsider, a foreigner, and that's it. To be honest this is not a "Japan-only" thing, the same point could be made for some other countries like China. Then, because this is HN, let's bring a second point: The glass ceiling faced by foreigners in Japanese companies is a dream for us startup founders. It's rare for a potential prospect to have more room for growth in a Japanese company than in your startup if that person is a foreigner. It's sad, but it helps a lot when hiring top talent. Let's also note that the visa situation for engineers is very easy compared to many other first world countries like the USA.
• gopz 9y ago
  What I've found after living in a few foreign countries (originally from the US): If you balk at minor incidents of xenophobia and in so doing generally act as if you don't belong, it will only make it worse. If you can take it in stride and keep a stiff upper lip people will assume you've already gone through enough "hazing" and leave you alone/be more welcoming. Even if you're trying to be polite, being overly apologetic is almost always bad, unless the situation is incredibly dire. It makes people think you are trying to get away with something by being there.
• sexydefinesher 9y ago
  What is up with the text coloring?
• geomark 9y ago
  Some interesting parallels with Thailand. Like with the use of language. I'm pretty fluent in Thai and older than many of the people I meet but they still refer to me as คุณ which means "you" when you are speaking to a peer when it would be more appropriate to use พี่ when speaking to someone older. And the word for westerner ฝรั่ง, while not an insult, is used to clearly identify someone as an outsider and not "one of us Thai people". Seems similar to how "gaijin" is used in Japan. There's also that same attitude about being superior than others - most western countries are particularly crude because they don't even have a royal family. Yet they are extremely sensitive about being looked down upon and pretend that the many vulgar behaviors that are so common don't even exist in the country. Off topic, I know, but some of the parallels are interesting.
• kristianc 9y ago
  Having lived in Japan, there's this weird curve that people go through when they move. Most people love Japan at first, and then, particularly if they're middle-aged and white, the frustration of being in your late thirties and living in a tiny house, not being able to progress in your career, and not having a social life begins to kick in. At that point, little things which shouldn't bother you - like the word gaijin which although unpleasant to Western ears is purely a descriptive term and the ignorance about the rest of the world begin to bother you. You also come to understand enough Japanese to understand what people are really saying beneath the surface. For what its worth, I found Japan incredibly safe, welcoming and unfailingly polite. I went to get my hair cut and by the end of it once the hairdresser had taken my number and offered to take me to Tsukiji fish auction! I think it is possible to go through an extended period in Japan without being consumed by bitterness like the OP, though it is a pattern I see quite often.
  • reustle 9y ago
    > without being consumed by bitterness like the OP, though it is a pattern I see quite often. I've lived in Japan for over a year and have experienced these people sometimes. Generally it comes down to them being an overall bitter person in general.
• ttflee 9y ago
  > The level of English in Japan is shockingly low, despite everyone studying it for 6 years at school. I honestly think it is kept deliberately low, people have access to the web but they can’t understand the English 90% of it is written in so there is no need for Chinese style censorship. The Chinese style censorship has nothing to do with understanding of English.
• kristofferR 9y ago
  I'll be honest, but I got the feeling right away that his negative experience probably has more to do with his personality than the country in itself. His "Cycling in Tokyo" post is just absurdly pessimistic and dark, for example. His username is littleblackheart. When you project negativity people tend to project it back at you. Most of his criticism is probably valid in some way, but if I were him I wouldn't make them as important to my experience of the country as he seems to have done.
• hellofunk 9y ago
  I really hate articles like this. There is no perfect place to live in the world. We are all human, and all societies have fundamental problems that derive from that. There are tradeoffs everywhere. This writer is negative and spoiled. Some of my favorites places in the world have problems that really really annoy me. But the positives outweigh the negatives for me, and everyone needs to decide what is important to them personally. To stereotype an entire culture or people like this and focus only on those things which annoyed the writer is a futile effort to make the world something that it isn't: perfect.
• ionised 9y ago
  "And here comes the first of my problems, almost universally in Japan if one criticizes or wishes to discuss some element of Japanese culture as a foreigner you are greeted with cries of “Why do you hate Japan?” and “If you don’t like it leave”. There is precious little room for any discussion and more often than not an impasse is reached with the statement “This is Japan. This is how WE do things”. This isn't exclusive to Japan. I've found English and American people with the same shitty inability to take criticism.
• 4bpp 9y ago
  > Japanese people often told me that Kabukicho (...) was the most dangerous place in Japan and often asked if I wasn’t scared of the Yakuza (Japanese Mafia) who openly parade the area. > My reply was always a simple one, “The Yakuza and Kabukicho aren’t scary, if you don’t mess with them they don’t mess with you. The Police? Now that’s a different story. Hands down scariest thing in Japan is the Police & the Justice system”. So he responded to a low-key compliment by insulting the interlocutor's country? If this is representative of how he interacted with people there, I'm not surprised that he was unpopular. Criticising the police is an exercise in civic bonding in the Anglo-American sphere these days, but I don't think it's much of a thing in Japan (and they tend to be very proud of their public safety climate). Was the author simply unaware of this, did he think that only his own culture's priorities regarding what it is okay to criticise matter, or did he not realise that people tend to identify strongly with at least some aspects of their countries at all? (Certainly, the UK has its own set of holy cows: back when I lived there, I learned of one the hard way after suggesting during a casual conversation that the political system of the UK would have turned out better if it had gone through at least one violent revolution in the past two-or-so centuries as all the other European countries did.)
• patio11 9y ago
  I have had approximately 10 involuntary interactions with the Japanese cops over the years. Here's my typical advice for foreign residents: you can pick your battles but you can't pick your police counterparties. The overwhelming likelihood if you are arbitrarily stopped by a police officer is that you were stopped for a reason which is outside the parameters of the law. Being vindicated by the law is something which is going to be extremely difficult and high-stress for you. There exists the non-trivial chance that you will not be vindicated even if you are in the right. The officer expects nearly instant, ingratiating compliance. If you perform instant, ingratiating compliance, you will likely exit the conversation quickly and with your safety intact. If you consider your dignity more important than your safety, that is your call, but know that you are making a high-variance decision. The intermediate steps of escalating a routine police encounter into a non-routine police encounter, for example with the eventual goal of being vindicated by the legal system, may involve legally or socially significant events such as an arrest. You very urgently do not want to be arrested. It will have outsized social impacts on e.g. your employment and housing situations and will be looked on with extreme displeasure by Immigration.
  • glandium 9y ago
    Note this is not exclusive to Japan.
  • kintle 9y ago
    Within a month or so of purchasing a used bicycle in Tokyo, I had been stopped more than 5 times by police. I guess the sight of a foreign guy on the cheapest bike I could find screams police magnet. It was cute at first and I was super polite and it would end quickly, but after a couple that resulted in patdowns, searches, and 20+ minutes answering questions about my presence in the country, I now make an effort to ride past the police if they're around. It's also made me more aware of the need to be a bit more cautious as a foreigner here than I thought
    • patio11 9y ago
      I had been wondering whether it was just Tokyo being more cosmopolitan but I'm now wondering if the reason for less adversarial encounters is simply that I haven't purchased a bike since leaving Ogaki. (If this sounds dumbfounding to folks with less context: bicycle theft is near the top of police priorities and they have the impression that foreigners are the primary cause of it. "Suspicion of stealing my own bicycle" has historically been the most common thing which attracted me adversarial attention.)
• Liriel 9y ago
  Some of the points he makes are spot on. I’ve worked with over 1000 Japanese ppl in almost 2 years. They are… complex in a way I can not describe… Some of the biggest cultural differences: 1. Don’t presume they’re happy when they’re smiling. 2. Their thank you doesn’t mean they are actually thankful, nor satisfied. 3. If you see a smiling Japanese grandma, run for your bloody life, those are the worst. 4. If you’re not smiling, you’re rude. 5. If someone tells you that you’re pretty, you should smile, and say thank you. No, don’t respond with: “Umm, can you please stop saying that? What does my look have to do with the way I do my job?” - I've been reported as rude to the QA team because of that.
• darasan 9y ago
  Lived in Tokyo for 5 years, doing business there for 8. I strongly disagree with many of the claims in this article. Many of them are absurd or simply untrue, so I’ll just pick a couple here. “At every place I ever worked, however, I was always referred to by my first name “Adrian” or at best “Adrian San” even by much younger staff members.” I worked as a software dev at 2 very traditional Japanese companies. I was usually referred to “First name” - san, sometimes as “Family name”-san. Close friends or colleagues would sometimes call me by first name. I’m quite sure this is due to Japanese people’s misunderstanding of first and second names in the West. If you introduce yourself as Adrian, they will probably call you Adrian-san as they may not be sure if it’s your first name or family name. That’s how their own naming convention works, as you can see by observing how they introduce themselves. They are not purposely trying to offend you or show a “lack of disrespect”! “I was stopped many times just walking down a street minding my own business, often surrounded by 3 or more officers who stood within a few feet of me and did their best to be as intimidating as possible. “ I was never stopped once in 8 years, nor were any of my many Western friends. All my dealings with the police were pleasant, they were always respectful and willing to help me. “Bag searches are common practice “ No. They’re not. “a police force that was ordered by 3 time former Tokyo Governor Mr. Ishihara to “regard all foreigners as suspicious”? “ Shintaro Ishihara is an extreme right wing, xenophobic lunatic. This is a guy who also blamed Japanese people for the 2011 earthquake stating, that “punishment from heaven' because Japanese have become greedy”, and denies that the Nanjing massacre ever happened. He is unpopular even in Japan and is hardly a credible data point. “It is not that uncommon, even in Tokyo, to see shops, bars or other establishments with “No foreigners”” This is also not true. They do exist, but it is not common. (I would struggle to think of anywhere in the thousands of place I’ve been to in Tokyo and greater Japan). “Don’t, for example even get me started on cycling in Tokyo.” Have you tried cycling in Dublin? Or Paris? I think the author is just searching for things to complain about now. “The level of English in Japan is shockingly low, despite everyone studying it for 6 years at school. I honestly think it is kept deliberately low” This is the quote that actually prompted me to reply, because it is so absurd and divorced from reality. Does the author actually believe that the Japanese government would systematically prevent their nation in becoming fluent in English? Their domestic market is shrinking and so they need their companies to expand outside Japan if they are to survive at all (just look at the disasters at Toshiba, Sharp etc.) On the contrary, METI (i.e. the Japanese government) have actually rolled out a new program since 2014 to reform the English education system in Japan to address the poor level of English. Not to mention that Tokyo will host the Olympics in 2020 and the lack of English will be a national embarrassment if they don’t get their act together. To suggest that English is “kept deliberately low” indicates that the author is delusional at best. Some of the points made by the author are valid, particularly regarding gender equality and sexual exploitation. Japan has serious issues there that renders it very outdated and alienated from modern societies. However during my time living there (and still today as I do business in Japan regularly), I made lasting friendships and formed incredibly close and rich relationships with many Japanese people. I’ve attended their weddings and dined at home with them and their children. I find Japanese people (for the most part) to be extremely kind, helpful and considerate. Of course there are some unpleasant and offensive people, but that is no different to any other country in the world. Therefore I needed to challenge this misinformation, out of respect for the many Japanese people who have been so good to me over the years. I’m surprised that the author lived there for so long, and still came away with such a distorted and narrow point of view. Overall, this article portrays years of pent-up frustration and homesickness by the author. I hope that a break in London will help to see things in a different light.
• muninn_ 9y ago
  Heh, meanwhile in the West if we do the equivalent were just racists and bigots. Move a bunch of refugees into a small town and see women covered up in a burqa and get upset about it? You're a racist now. Wear tattoos in Asia and get kicked out of a gym? "Oh that's just Asian country X, you have to respect their culture". I can't roll my eyes enough. The people in that Asian country should just accept her for who she is and deal with it. Especially since it's obvious she's a foreigner, they could have just chilled out.
  • bojo 9y ago
    Japan has a country wide stigma against people who wear tattoos due to it being a primary feature of Yakuza (Japanese Mafia), typically due to a history of them bringing their bad reputation into respectable establishments. Public bath houses and hot springs actively ask people with tattoos to leave because of this. While the younger generation have been getting themselves tattooed more these days, it's still pretty much frowned upon by society as a whole and isn't tolerated, period. > The people in that Asian country should just accept her for who she is and deal with it. This is exactly the mentality being discussed in this thread that is so abhorrent. You don't see Japanese people strolling into an American house and telling everyone they should take their shoes off before entering. Why should their society turn a blind eye to foreigners and accept something that is non-trivially a massive taboo in their own country?
    • muninn_ 9y ago
      > Japan has a country wide stigma against people who wear tattoos due to Reasons I don't care about. Doesn't matter. Deal with different cultures. > This is exactly the mentality being discussed in this thread that is so abhorrent. You don't see Japanese people strolling into an American house and telling everyone they should take their shoes off before entering. Why should their society turn a blind eye to foreigners and accept something that is non-trivially a massive taboo in their own country? Why shouldn't they? Everybody else has to. If a Japanese person owns a house in the U.S. and asks me to take off my shoes, maybe I should ignore that since my culture in my country doesn't do that? No, I'm not an asshole and I respect their culture, even if they want to practice it in my country. Obviously this is a trivial example, but it's not like tattoos representing gang membership/mafia is unique to Japan. Ever been to the U.S. ? Do people get kicked out of gyms here for having tattoos of any kind? People get offended by burqas so should I kick them out of the gym too if I don't like it because I believe it's a symbol of female oppression? It's a silly double standard you're pulling here and I'll have none of it.
• chilchil 9y ago
  White guy with asian fetish in Japan and using female pictures to disguise his blog post? What a loser.
• renegadesensei 9y ago
  This was a really good piece. I have also lived in Japan for some time and I can relate to many of his experiences. Unlike some of his critics, I don't think anything he wrote is completely wrong. There may be some embellishment or unrepresentative anecdotes, but for the most part I think he paints a fairly accurate picture, at least from a foreign perspective. I have met a lot of other western foreigners who have lived in Japan for a very long time. One of my coworkers is an eastern European guy who has lived in Japan since 1994. He absolutely adores everything about the country and its people. When I compare his perspective to that of this author's, an important point becomes clear in my mind: Being a happy immigrant requires a very deep level of assimilation. It isn't about learning the language or copying the mannerisms. It is also about adopting the value system. Many of the author's complaints demonstrate a preference for a western European cultural value system. For example, he complains about the lack of hate speech laws, the more authoritarian police, the lack of tolerance of diversity, the lack of gender equality, and so on. He uses phrases like "more enlightened 21st century countries," and makes a lot of sweeping statements about the Japanese people. It's almost as if he's annoyed that Japanese people are Japanese and not British. Cultures aren't costumes. It's not just different foods and clothing. It's fundamentally different ways of understanding the world. In racially homogeneous societies, it's also about an implicit in-group out-group orientation. You'll feel that everywhere from Japan to Nigeria. I am an immigrant in Japan. I have made peace with the fact that I am always going to be an outsider. I have made peace with those aspects of their culture I find unpleasant. On balance I think the lifestyle and culture is superior to most other places, so I am content.
• soufron 9y ago
  What an ass. I lived and worked in Japan for several years and I had understood all of the hardness of everyday Japan even before deciding to settle there for a while. To think that it took him several years to get it... and 10 years to decide to do something about it... It's a moron. Nothing else.
  • cyphunk 9y ago
    People that sour about their host country I find sometimes have something relevant in their past missing from the story. Such as externalities that force them to move to or live in current host for longer than they wanted. Still, there is a long discussion in this article about issues with the Japanese legal system that is worth while.
• deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
• cyphunk 9y ago
  the OP was wondering if after a year they would be able to write an objectionable article about their experience... definitely another year might help. Regardless I'm still happy they shared their experiences. The comments on HN are mostly disturbed by the self-righteous tone of the article. This phrase is probably around the centre of that tone [highlight mine]: > a poor excuse for attitudes that would be met with derision in more [enlightened 21st-century countries] Also the author finds problems in Japan that they seem to ignore in many other places: > It was somewhere I lived for 10 years, it was never my home, could never have been my home. Regardless of how good my Japanese language skills became or how much I had tried to become like them, I would never have been fully accepted, never been allowed in the club. Basically it sounds almost like the author is saying that they just like to live where they are part of the native majority. Because, I think you will experience this everywhere. I've seen and experienced exactly the same in the following countries (In order of level disgustingness at which the 'not-part-of-our-society' is shovelled out): Israel, US, Germany. But still there is a lot in the article worth reading if one can get through the tone. Specifically the legal architecture.
• Arkaad 9y ago
  The last photo of the post features a girl giving the finger towards the camera. The author of the blog should know that taking a picture of someone without their consent is considered as quite rude in Japan.