6 ms·

It looks like a great offering, but it also means that in all likelihood, you'd be sharing your data with the Chinese government - which may or may not be a pro

It looks like a great offering, but it also means that in all likelihood, you'd be sharing your data with the Chinese government - which may or may not be a problem depending on your business.

deleted 9y ago
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deleted 9y ago
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zitterbewegung 9y ago
But won't it provide competition in the cloud space to drive costs down ? Or will no one take it seriously ?
problems 9y ago
Yeah - it's an interesting conundrum, but it's not like similar doesn't happen with US providers - it's pretty much commonplace here given taps in DCs and under-the-table agreements, "Room 641A" and all such things.
- MaxfordAndSons 9y ago
  >it's not like similar doesn't happen with US providers I think that's a false equivalence - the TLAs might have access to your data, but are unlikely to look at it/act upon it except when your company/users run afoul of the law. It seems China is much more proactive in this regard - actively policing speech, etc. OTOH, given the political situation in the US, one can't rule out a slide towards parity with the situation in China, and indeed it seems pretty likely to me.
  - anotherbrownguy 9y ago
    >actively policing speech Yes, "speech" that is illegal because it is damaging to the ruling class. See: Snowden, Manning, Assange.
    - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
      Note there speech wasn't criminalizes in itself. No press got prosecuted for relaying their speech. Let's not pretend restrictions on free speech are anywhere near equivalent in scale between the two countries.
      - jMyles 9y ago
        You are absolutely right that the de jurie restrictions are not comparable. It's difficult to imagine a fully-functioning, sensible adult who can look at the official-ish Chinese position(s) and not object. However, it is not entirely unreasonable to compare the end results. There is definitely a chilling effect in the USA, effecting many of the very people who are best in a position to blow a whistle. And that this has been accomplished without the appearance of a draconian overreach is itself part of that chill. These two (and other) methods of state violence against expression are worth considering when choosing a region for a cloud services provider.
        seanmcdirmid 9y ago
        > There is definitely a chilling effect in the USA Perhaps with individual whistle blowers, but definitely not with the press. I agree the USA is nowhere near perfect, and I always fear it will become more like China rather than say much of western europe (which still is far from perfect). > These two (and other) methods of state violence against expression are worth considering when choosing a region for a cloud services provider. If you want to associate with a better run state for your cloud service region, you have much better options than China. Not that Alibaba is bad at all, I have friends who work there and it seems to be a decent company by Chinese standards.
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
      - anotherbrownguy 9y ago
        Constitution of China also gives citizens freedom of speech, freedom of press etc. It's not criminalized. It's just that if you say something damaging, they will find something else that you violated for which you have to go to jail. To outside observers, specially, to those who pay you to say those things, it is obvious that you have been framed because of what they said and they tell their media to report accordingly.
  - trumpownsyou 9y ago
    shut up, cuck.
  - Teever 9y ago
    How can you be sure of any of this?
    - MaxfordAndSons 9y ago
      I'm not. All of the things I said are qualified speculations. But I think they're pretty reasonable.
  - awkwarddaturtle 9y ago
    > I think that's a false equivalence - the TLAs might have access to your data, but are unlikely to look at it/act upon it except when your company/users run afoul of the law. The same could be argued for china. You are just splitting hairs. > It seems China is much more proactive in this regard - actively policing speech, etc. Policing speech? It happens on american social media. Even on hackernews.
- iliketosleep 9y ago
  Right. The difference is there's at least some push back from (some) US companies, where they attempt to use secure encryption schemes. Whereas in China, it's taken as a given that all these large enterprises will submit to any kind of government demands without resistance or public debate.
  - problems 9y ago
    The flip side of that for me at least is that the US government is a lot more likely to be able to come after me for something I say or do than the Chinese government is. Yeah, it's brutal for Chinese citizens, but I'm on the other side of the planet in a country that's unlikely to submit me to their justice system. Many of the laws affecting internet usage are nasty in the US too - you'll have a lot better luck torrenting, firing security scans or hosting certain leaked documents using a Chinese provider than a US one for example.
    - iliketosleep 9y ago
      I agree. In a funny sort of way, a Chinese provider has a competitive advantage in that regard.
      - MaxfordAndSons 9y ago
        Only for the business of private individuals or illicit organizations trying to do shady stuff. The advantage disappears in a b2b context.
tjpnz 9y ago
Which you could argue is true of most businesses given how much stuff is manufactured there.

It looks like a great offering, but it also means that in all likelihood, you'd be sharing your data with the Chinese government - which may or may not be a problem depending on your business.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

zitterbewegung 9y ago

But won't it provide competition in the cloud space to drive costs down ? Or will no one take it seriously ?

problems 9y ago

Yeah - it's an interesting conundrum, but it's not like similar doesn't happen with US providers - it's pretty much commonplace here given taps in DCs and under-the-table agreements, "Room 641A" and all such things.

MaxfordAndSons 9y ago
>it's not like similar doesn't happen with US providers I think that's a false equivalence - the TLAs might have access to your data, but are unlikely to look at it/act upon it except when your company/users run afoul of the law. It seems China is much more proactive in this regard - actively policing speech, etc. OTOH, given the political situation in the US, one can't rule out a slide towards parity with the situation in China, and indeed it seems pretty likely to me.
- anotherbrownguy 9y ago
  >actively policing speech Yes, "speech" that is illegal because it is damaging to the ruling class. See: Snowden, Manning, Assange.
  - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
    Note there speech wasn't criminalizes in itself. No press got prosecuted for relaying their speech. Let's not pretend restrictions on free speech are anywhere near equivalent in scale between the two countries.
    - jMyles 9y ago
      You are absolutely right that the de jurie restrictions are not comparable. It's difficult to imagine a fully-functioning, sensible adult who can look at the official-ish Chinese position(s) and not object. However, it is not entirely unreasonable to compare the end results. There is definitely a chilling effect in the USA, effecting many of the very people who are best in a position to blow a whistle. And that this has been accomplished without the appearance of a draconian overreach is itself part of that chill. These two (and other) methods of state violence against expression are worth considering when choosing a region for a cloud services provider.
      - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
        > There is definitely a chilling effect in the USA Perhaps with individual whistle blowers, but definitely not with the press. I agree the USA is nowhere near perfect, and I always fear it will become more like China rather than say much of western europe (which still is far from perfect). > These two (and other) methods of state violence against expression are worth considering when choosing a region for a cloud services provider. If you want to associate with a better run state for your cloud service region, you have much better options than China. Not that Alibaba is bad at all, I have friends who work there and it seems to be a decent company by Chinese standards.
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
    - anotherbrownguy 9y ago
      Constitution of China also gives citizens freedom of speech, freedom of press etc. It's not criminalized. It's just that if you say something damaging, they will find something else that you violated for which you have to go to jail. To outside observers, specially, to those who pay you to say those things, it is obvious that you have been framed because of what they said and they tell their media to report accordingly.
- trumpownsyou 9y ago
  shut up, cuck.
- Teever 9y ago
  How can you be sure of any of this?
  - MaxfordAndSons 9y ago
    I'm not. All of the things I said are qualified speculations. But I think they're pretty reasonable.
- awkwarddaturtle 9y ago
  > I think that's a false equivalence - the TLAs might have access to your data, but are unlikely to look at it/act upon it except when your company/users run afoul of the law. The same could be argued for china. You are just splitting hairs. > It seems China is much more proactive in this regard - actively policing speech, etc. Policing speech? It happens on american social media. Even on hackernews.
iliketosleep 9y ago
Right. The difference is there's at least some push back from (some) US companies, where they attempt to use secure encryption schemes. Whereas in China, it's taken as a given that all these large enterprises will submit to any kind of government demands without resistance or public debate.
- problems 9y ago
  The flip side of that for me at least is that the US government is a lot more likely to be able to come after me for something I say or do than the Chinese government is. Yeah, it's brutal for Chinese citizens, but I'm on the other side of the planet in a country that's unlikely to submit me to their justice system. Many of the laws affecting internet usage are nasty in the US too - you'll have a lot better luck torrenting, firing security scans or hosting certain leaked documents using a Chinese provider than a US one for example.
  - iliketosleep 9y ago
    I agree. In a funny sort of way, a Chinese provider has a competitive advantage in that regard.
    - MaxfordAndSons 9y ago
      Only for the business of private individuals or illicit organizations trying to do shady stuff. The advantage disappears in a b2b context.

tjpnz 9y ago

Which you could argue is true of most businesses given how much stuff is manufactured there.