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First -- that's even worse because VISA powers probably 1/3 of all modern commerce. Bitcoin is a hobby of the .01%. And even if that wasn't the case, it's not

First -- that's even worse because VISA powers probably 1/3 of all modern commerce. Bitcoin is a hobby of the .01%. And even if that wasn't the case, it's not comparable because bitcoin is _fundamentally backed_ by the willingness to waste electricity. This is very important, and I feel like people gloss over this. If VISA figured out how to run their datacenters without electricity, they would do it in a heartbeat, and it would have no impact on the amount of processing being done -- they'd just do the work cheaper, and it would be great. If bitcoin mining got more energy efficient, THERE WOULD BE MORE MINERS BECAUSE COSTS DROP. The amount of money miners are willing to waste on hardware and electricity is fundamentally tied to the price, and as the costs go down, it's easier to fight for the fixed-sum payout. This will never change. As bitcoin gets more popular, a proportionally large amount of electricity is WORTH BEING WASTED. It is a fundamentally broken model, if you are trying not to rape the environment.

silverdrake11 9y ago
You could argue that energy is being wasted in traditional currency systems. Printing currency, ATM machines, cash registers, transporting cash in armored cars. This energy doesn't serve any purpose besides maintaining the currency itself, similar to bitcoin.
chaostheory 9y ago
> Bitcoin is a hobby of the .01%. It's still relatively easily accessible to the middle class. It also allows the middle class in regimes with unstable currencies to more easily transfer and store value.
joshvm 9y ago
I think you're reading too much into my post. I was simply curious to see what the actual numbers were. There's no point saying "Bitcoin is bad." without any justification: so I justified it - it's insanely inefficient. And you need that extra data point (VISA) to see just how inefficient it is. My favourite horrifying fact is that if Bitcoin were a country ranked by energy consumption it would come in at around North Korea.
shpongled 9y ago
You're off your rocker - a "hobby of the .01%". If you can't see the potential of a decentralized cryptographically secure store-of-value/currency then you are incredibly short sighted.
- bpodgursky 9y ago
  The point is that almost nobody uses bitcoin, and it still uses as much electricity as VISA (or more). If it became the currency of the masses, we'd spend half the world's electricity farming blocks.
  - Dylan16807 9y ago
    > If it became the currency of the masses, we'd spend half the world's electricity farming blocks. Yeah, some rough math on current market cap suggests not quite half but probably more than a tenth. But the problem is saying the 0.01%. Bitcoin is certainly used by a small fraction of people, but it's not at all a rich-person thing.
    - stOneskull 9y ago
      i think the electricity use is a bigger problem.
      - stratoglide 9y ago
        And traditional currencies have been cutting down trees for hundreds of years to process them into paper. Isn't that incredibly inefficient? Think about all the energy that is wasted to get the heavy metals out of the ground to produce coins? That's not even including the fact that every retail store I've worked at never turn of their POS terminals or the 24hr ATM's. The gross waste of having to build buildings to store money in? Is the traditional banking system really any more efficient? Not to mention its not exactly wasting electricity at all its just inefficient by design for security purposes.
Axsuul 9y ago
This is assuming the value that the VISA system provides is the same as what Bitcoin's does. Bitcoin is being used more as a store of value these days. The ratio of the value it provides to electricity requirements is much, much greater when taking this into account.
- uncletammy 9y ago
  Came here to say this. A more accurate comparison would include costs related to storing and securing wealth (banks, guards, etc)
- nosuchthing 9y ago
  What value are you talking about exactly? Newer designs offer the same service with improvements like scrypt and other algorithms to prevent ASIC attacks which just centralize control to hardware designers/producers, like these warehouses in China. Exchanges can and have artificially inflated prices: http://www.coindesk.com/bot-named-willy-did-mt-goxs-automated-trading-pump-bitcoin-price/ http://www.coindesk.com/bot-named-willy-did-mt-goxs-automate...
stale2002 9y ago
There are upcoming optimizations that will allow the bitcoin protocol, via layer 2 solutions, to run at the same capacity as visa. Yes, it really is possibly that bitcoin will have a higher capacity for less energy costs.
pyroinferno 9y ago
>Bitcoin is a hobby of the .01% Do you mean of the .01% of the richest people of the population? If so, you have no clue what you're talking about.

silverdrake11 9y ago

You could argue that energy is being wasted in traditional currency systems. Printing currency, ATM machines, cash registers, transporting cash in armored cars. This energy doesn't serve any purpose besides maintaining the currency itself, similar to bitcoin.

chaostheory 9y ago

> Bitcoin is a hobby of the .01%. It's still relatively easily accessible to the middle class. It also allows the middle class in regimes with unstable currencies to more easily transfer and store value.

joshvm 9y ago

I think you're reading too much into my post. I was simply curious to see what the actual numbers were. There's no point saying "Bitcoin is bad." without any justification: so I justified it - it's insanely inefficient. And you need that extra data point (VISA) to see just how inefficient it is. My favourite horrifying fact is that if Bitcoin were a country ranked by energy consumption it would come in at around North Korea.

shpongled 9y ago

You're off your rocker - a "hobby of the .01%". If you can't see the potential of a decentralized cryptographically secure store-of-value/currency then you are incredibly short sighted.

bpodgursky 9y ago
The point is that almost nobody uses bitcoin, and it still uses as much electricity as VISA (or more). If it became the currency of the masses, we'd spend half the world's electricity farming blocks.
- Dylan16807 9y ago
  > If it became the currency of the masses, we'd spend half the world's electricity farming blocks. Yeah, some rough math on current market cap suggests not quite half but probably more than a tenth. But the problem is saying the 0.01%. Bitcoin is certainly used by a small fraction of people, but it's not at all a rich-person thing.
  - stOneskull 9y ago
    i think the electricity use is a bigger problem.
    - stratoglide 9y ago
      And traditional currencies have been cutting down trees for hundreds of years to process them into paper. Isn't that incredibly inefficient? Think about all the energy that is wasted to get the heavy metals out of the ground to produce coins? That's not even including the fact that every retail store I've worked at never turn of their POS terminals or the 24hr ATM's. The gross waste of having to build buildings to store money in? Is the traditional banking system really any more efficient? Not to mention its not exactly wasting electricity at all its just inefficient by design for security purposes.

Axsuul 9y ago

This is assuming the value that the VISA system provides is the same as what Bitcoin's does. Bitcoin is being used more as a store of value these days. The ratio of the value it provides to electricity requirements is much, much greater when taking this into account.

uncletammy 9y ago
Came here to say this. A more accurate comparison would include costs related to storing and securing wealth (banks, guards, etc)
nosuchthing 9y ago
What value are you talking about exactly? Newer designs offer the same service with improvements like scrypt and other algorithms to prevent ASIC attacks which just centralize control to hardware designers/producers, like these warehouses in China. Exchanges can and have artificially inflated prices: http://www.coindesk.com/bot-named-willy-did-mt-goxs-automated-trading-pump-bitcoin-price/ http://www.coindesk.com/bot-named-willy-did-mt-goxs-automate...

stale2002 9y ago

There are upcoming optimizations that will allow the bitcoin protocol, via layer 2 solutions, to run at the same capacity as visa. Yes, it really is possibly that bitcoin will have a higher capacity for less energy costs.

pyroinferno 9y ago

>Bitcoin is a hobby of the .01% Do you mean of the .01% of the richest people of the population? If so, you have no clue what you're talking about.