8 ms·

A media company in Mumbai is giving women a day off during their periods

52 points by urahara 9y ago

artificialidiot 9y ago
I fully support letting people go home when they are objectively counterproductive.
fredley 9y ago
Stuff like this, while done with good intentions, can threaten to entrench discrimination by having different sets of rules and expectations for people based on their gender. A better solution would be to give 12 extra holiday days per year to everyone, but make it known that it's acceptable to take them under those circumstances.
- colanderman 9y ago
  Or allow flexible scheduling around periods.
- philipov 9y ago
  But doing that doesn't get the same PR credit for fighting sexism, and it costs a whole lot more money, so "what's the point?"
  - chii 9y ago
    More people needs to understand that fighting sexism isn't to give females a "better"deal or consideration. It's to ensure there's no discernable difference in treatment. It could be taken to far with unisex toilets, but i don't affirmative action is going to help fight sexism at all.
- bigmanwalter 9y ago
  Men don't get a day of pain and cramps each month so I don't see why we should get the day off. Periods aren't fun, and I don't think men deserve a day at the golf course in exchange.
  - rtx 9y ago
    Neither do all woman.
    - bigmanwalter 9y ago
      They don't have to take the day off then.
      - heythere124 9y ago
        The point is that they can still. Whatever the standard for taking time off work for illness it should apply equally to both genders so there should never be any need for a separate rule/law.
  - fredley 9y ago
    It's a tricky one, but on the whole I'm against 'positive' discrimination. It's still discrimination, it can still create contempt and undermine hard work (they're only in that job because they're [a], a smarter [b] probably didn't get the job, etc.) It applies to maternity/paternity leave too. Until maternity and paternity leave are required to be equal by law, there will be a bias against hiring women, due to the simple mathematics. If the 'risk' is equal for a man or a woman, the bias is eliminated.
    - BearGoesChirp 9y ago
      Even if men and women are given the same amount of leave, there are still two problems. First, social norms lead to men and women not using it equally. Second, single individuals don't have equal access given that society has a significant gender disparity in single parents, that men can't get pregnant, and that even if the leave is equal for adoption, there is still discrimination in adoption.
  - leroy_masochist 9y ago
    Neither do women who are done menstruating. So employers should hand out a questionnaire to all the women asking who still gets their period? I mean, that's a pretty normal question to ask your coworkers, I'm sure HR would be cool with it. This is way, way easier to just implement as one extra sick day per person per month.
- buro9 9y ago
  > based on their gender Based on their sex. http://www.med.monash.edu.au/gendermed/sexandgender.html http://www.med.monash.edu.au/gendermed/sexandgender.html > Sex refers to biological differences; chromosomes, hormonal profiles, internal and external sex organs. > Gender describes the characteristics that a society or culture delineates as masculine or feminine. May as well link some script from the Life of Brian to demonstrate that you can identify (gender) as a woman if you are a male but where's the foetus going to gestate (sex). http://montypython.50webs.com/scripts/Life_of_Brian/8.htm http://montypython.50webs.com/scripts/Life_of_Brian/8.htm
  - adrianN 9y ago
    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender
- stult 9y ago
  13 would be closer to the average ;) But you're right. A number of people I've spoken to about parental leave (not all of whom have been men) are skeptical of paternity leave because they largely see maternity leave as an opportunity to recover from the physical and medical hardships of child birth, with emotional bonding merely an ancillary benefit. Even if that's true, creating gender independent norms avoids giving ammunition to the quietly sexist eye-rollers who use maternity leave to devalue female coworkers. While it would be better to just make a quantum leap to the ideal world where no one holds those opinions in the first place, existing cultural norms and beliefs naturally constrain policy on a pragmatic level and we have to work within those constraints as best we can. It's funny to see these fumbling efforts toward those goals by companies from a different culture than my own, though. I can't imagine even the most politically naive and insensitive American manager suggesting this idea, outside of a Michael Scott from the Office type parody. Is it because we tackled basic issues with women in the workplace earlier than India because we modernized faster? Like is this the sort of idea bumbling Dilbert-esque middle managers in corporate America proposed during the mid-70s? Or is there some underlying difference in cultural taboos about discussing periods? I have to confess that India is one country where I am not very well informed about the culture on the ground as I haven't spent any time there.
- dontflamemebro 9y ago
  Throwaway because no one wants to hear about periods. I am a woman and one time my body decided to have an extremely heavy and painful flow for about a week straight. I had been sick with a cold immediately before that, so I had already let my employer know that I was not feeling well and would be taking some days off, and I did not feel the need to tell my employer every little detail about what was going on. Every morning I would text something along the lines of, "I'm still not feeling well." After about the third day of being out my boss texted me with a suggestion that I go see a doctor. When I finally got back to the office he wanted to see a doctor's note. I did not go to the doctor, because more extreme bleeding is something that is expected after having an IUD inserted. I was at home in extreme pain, changing out adult diapers about 3 times a day that were completely soaked with blood. I think this 100% is a good enough reason to not come into work, and it's sort of bull that my boss was asking about my personal business when we are already a company that combines sick days with vacation days as PTO. I actually did fill my boss in on all the gory details since he wouldn't let up on the doctor's note, but this is absolutely something that I should NEVER have to disclose to someone to be able to keep my job. I don't really have a good solution here. I want the 12 extra holiday days for everyone solution to work, but there will always be people abusing their limited amount of power to unnecessarily investigate what we are using our PTO for.
  - pc86 9y ago
    It's perfectly reasonable for a manager to request a doctor's note if you say "I have a cold and will not be in for a few days" and then you are out for 6+.
    - athenot 9y ago
      Yet it's counter-productive. According to [1], people are contagious for about one week, starting from one day before they feel any symptoms. It is actually more productive to send the sick people home (or let them work at least part-time from home) to prevent others from getting sick and also having to take time off. I've been fortunate enough to work in environments where this was acknowledged and practiced, but I'm always dismayed when hearing from friends/relatives who are required to put in their "time of presence" and get half of their coworkers sick. [Edit] Last point: for the common cold (virus), there's no need for a doctor visit, yet you still need rest and symptom control with OTC meds. [1] http://www.webmd.com/cold-and-flu/how-long-flu-contagious http://www.webmd.com/cold-and-flu/how-long-flu-contagious
- DropbearRob 9y ago
  I totally get your point, and from a capitalist perspective the solution of the media company in the article dis-incentivises hiring women as a dollar per hour of work metric instantly makes hiring a woman less cost effective. I've seen comments like men don't have the day of pain, so don't "need the holiday" but these people obviously don't own a business or pay other peoples wages. When you are a small business you ensure that you hire people based on the maximum return on investment based on skillset and deliverables. If you have 2 identically skilled and equally hard working employees but one works 12 days less per year and gets the same money, you would hire the one who delivers 12 extra days. If you ignore the sex of the applicants and it was down to a purely financial decision (as it always should be in business, especially publicly traded businesses) then you would be neglecting your responsibilities if you hire someone who costs more and delivers less. The solution may be simply allow flexi-time. Each member of staff must fulfil X number of hours per week, month, year or whatever slice you decide, and when its performed is up to them. This wouldn't work with List-X or restricted sites, where work must be performed on site, but for something like a media company I'm sure you could work from many suitable locations.
  - falcolas 9y ago
    The problem with this logic is that you would never hire a woman, for fear that they could get pregnant and become "unreliable" for 9 months, and completely unavailable for the duration of their maternity leave (while having to keep their job position unfilled). It's far better to apply some humanity to the equation and just give everyone those extra 12 days off (and (mat|pat)ernity leave), so you're not tempted to discriminate off the "productivity loss".
    - DropbearRob 9y ago
      Im not saying its humane, or just, or right. Its business. The reason you point out is exactly what has happened in the past. In fact my mum used to work for a company that straight up fired any female staff in the secretary pool which got married to protect themselves from exactly the losses you speak of. Luckily we don't live in that world anymore (40 years ago). And we are working to reduce the dis-incentives of hiring women over men. Im living in the UK where recently paternity and maternity leave are inter-changable and can be split between parents. entitling men to equal leave to women to reduce the incentives of hiring men over women. There are all kinds of times when people become less productive. Im never advocating never hiring a woman, only that whatever benefits you apply to one act as a hiring dis-incentive unless applied by law to both. Its economics, not ethics.
- DropbearRob 9y ago
  Oh, sorry to double reply, but I just thought of something devious. What if any of the following apply to the female employee: Is on birth control to supress having a period. Has an IUD and is one of the 1 in 5 for whom this stops Having periods for a year. Has had a hysterectomy. Has gone through menopause. Has another condition which causes them to not have periods. do they have their 12 days ripped from them unceremoniously? It seems like there are a lot of edge cases here which may provide additional areas to cry "sexism" because for the cases listed above they wont require the 12 extra days, yet without having intimate medical knowledge of your staff, you cannot differentite between one type of non-period having staff member and another (in the "other" case a male). in any case I'm glad they've done it as a case study on what happens next.
- kingofpandora 9y ago
  Reminds me of a company in a country I won't name that celebrated International Women's Day by giving each female employee a bouquet of flowers. There may have been good intentions ...
Swizec 9y ago
Question for the women ou there: Do you perceive this as a magnificent idea or as implying women have a periodic weakness that impacts their performance every month? Do you think this sort of policy feeds into wage gap stuff, or fights against it? As a reasonably feminist guy, I can't decide how to feel about this. It seems like it's implying women can't work one day of every month, and also seems like a great idea because dealing with office folk while in pain is not fun. Do you think a policy like this works better (only?) in a predominantly female company?
- Everula 9y ago
  hey, personally I do feel really bad in the first day and when I need to go to work I always think "I wish I could stay at home and work from there", so it really impacts my performance and from one side it is indeed a great idea, but it is sexism towards men - they also feel bad from time to time, so why not unify this practice for all and just give more paid day-offs / sick leaves, as was already mentioned in the comment above. Also, I am not very comfortable letting everyone in the company know when the period starts and gossip about that (yes, this is also a topic for gossip).
- lemondrops 9y ago
  Not sure how to feel about this; but I also don't consider myself a women who suffers heavily under period symptoms. If I feel bad enough that I can't do my work properly, I would simply leave, periods or not. (Normal paid sick leave - this is relatively easy in my country.) It has only happened once since I started working full time five years ago, that I was in so much pain from periods that I had to leave work. (And that was after taking two painkillers and even those didn't help.) I certainly think a policy like this would feed into wage gap issues - it would definitely be unfair to pay the same amount of money to two employees, when one of them potentially works 12 days more in a year. It sounds plausible that it would work better in a female dominated company -- I would rather suck up the pain than deal with stupid remarks of my male colleagues because they know I'm on my periods... In general, I think women grow up with having to deal with their periods and the symptoms since childhood/teenage years, so it's just a normal part of life for us. Sure, some women have it way worse that others, but I'd say 90% can cope with it without problems and don't need extra holidays. Though I do like the idea of giving those women in bad pain the opportunity to work from home! It doesn't necessarily help with the symptoms, but at least one can sit somewhere comfortable in PJs with a warm water bottle, which makes it a lot more bearable IMO.
Traubenfuchs 9y ago
That's sexism though.
- rishabhd 9y ago
  My thoughts exactly.
- shanusmagnus 9y ago
  What's wrong with being sexy?
- saiya-jin 9y ago
  exactly! I wonder how much things actually go both ways in mindset of social justice warriors of these days.
- matt4077 9y ago
  Now I'm wondering if you consider it sexist against men, who are denied this benefit. Or against women, who are (once again) stereotyped as weak and unreliable? I guess the answer is "both". But I can't shake the feeling that this is actually much worse for women than it is for men. In principle, I don't even have a problem with some groups getting a few more days off, or other special arrangements. Some countries have rules for minority religions, for example, allowing them to celebrate their respective holidays. But I can't really imagine any women thinking that this would be a good idea.
  - jhasse 9y ago
    It's sexist as it gives people an advantage based on their sex. This is unfair for: * women who are in pain more than one day a month because of their periods * men who have prostate troubles or other illnesses exclusive to men And it gives an unfair advantage to: * women who aren't in pain during their periods * women who have their period less than once a months (for example because of the Pill) The criterion to get the day off shouldn't be "are you women?" but "are you in pain?". They probably chose the former because they think it correlates that much.
  - billpg 9y ago
ryanx435 9y ago
interesting. If this ever became law, it would incentivize hiring men over women because you'll get 5% less value out of hiring a woman employee. the math: lets assume that there are 260 working days in a year. women get 12 extra holidays per year for their periods, which means they only work 248 out of the 260 days. 248/260 = 95.4%. very interesting indeed.
- robertlagrant 9y ago
  Maternity leave in theory has the same disadvantage, as generally women take this more than paternity leave (though I think that's changing) - it can be combatted by public denigration of companies that consider men to be preferable hires on the basis of lower risk of disruption and lower costs. Thus I don't think it'd be a problem.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - BearGoesChirp 9y ago
    >it can be combatted by public denigration of companies that consider men to be preferable hires on the basis of lower risk of disruption and lower costs. Was this said in sarcasm? I feel like it was, but I'm not a good judge of when sarcasm is used.
    - robertlagrant 9y ago
      Which bit sounds sarcastic?
- jlebrech 9y ago
  that's the assumption that a desk job is 8 hours straight productivity. but manual labour might hedge towards male employment, that's true.
  - robertlagrant 9y ago
    The numbers scale regardless of what percentage of the day everyone "really works".
jlebrech 9y ago
well intentioned but this could lead to "tests" for women that have issues in that area when the boss thinks she's cheating the system. but giving them 2 extra days to take at their leisure isn't a bad idea imho. but then that would lead to less pay in some instances.
epx 9y ago
My wife has two very bad and painful days (the first two) every period. I am not sure how she would handle if she had a job.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- ygra 9y ago
  Sick leave? As far as I know that's exactly what it's for. It also has the benefit of not discriminating whether it's period cramps, migraines, a broken leg, food poisoning, or depression. EDIT: I'm German. Sick leave is completely separate from vacation days here and not limited (although you get less money after six weeks because your health insurance takes over from your employer). Generally I find that one of the only acceptable solution to the problem at hand. Giving half your employees extra days off is a bad idea, conflating vacation and sick leave is a bad idea, and forcing employees to come to work when they're unable to is a bad idea.
  - falcolas 9y ago
    Speaking for myself (as a standard US employee with a "progressive" HR, I mean Human Asset Management dept), I get 0 sick days. I get three weeks (15 days) which is supposed to be for both vacation and sickness. Someone who can't work two days a month would either be fired or be taking leave without pay, and never able to take paid vacation.
    - DropbearRob 9y ago
      I feel very sorry for you and others in your position to hear that. the UK has some very forgiving policies on sick leave (https://www.gov.uk/taking-sick-leave https://www.gov.uk/taking-sick-leave). in fact you don't even have to provide a doctors note if you take just a couple of days off.
    - jhasse 9y ago
      Wow. In Germany law grants you at least 24 vacation days per year - and sick days can't be included in that!
perseusprime11 9y ago
My wife would love this if it were implemented here.
nickonline 9y ago
This viewpoint is amazing. It's so brilliantly obvious that it's an American saying this statement due to the horrible laws that are so far in favour of the business it's not funny. In Australia (for example) where I am, annually we have 20 days of leave and 10 sick days by law. Those sick days are available for use for any personal issue be it period pain or mental health. I understand in Europe the leave schedules are event more in favour of the worker we're by no means progressive with the levels of leave we provide.
- fredley 9y ago
  I'm British, FYI :-) My suggestion, while obviously extreme (flexible scheduling as mentioned elsewhere in this thread would be a much more reasonable 'solution') wouldn't fly in the USA as nobody takes their holiday days anyway!
  - kogus 9y ago
    American here. This approach is not common in the US, but it's not totally unknown either. It also addresses issues where people may prefer to take different holidays off based on religious preferences. One person might take Hannukah and another might take Christmas, etc.
  - pc86 9y ago
    I don't know where this idea that Americans don't take their vacation time came from, but it is 100% wrong in my opinion. I have coworkers that have had negative PTO balances for months. Whether with PTO or holidays, I try to get at least one 3-4 day weekend each month. I take least one 2-week vacation every year. Everyone I've worked with over the past decade, with rare exception, is the same. A friend of mine is a (non-computer) engineering executive and has a particularly generous PTO package of 200 hours a year with a 400 hour rollover cap. He keeps a bank of about 250 hours in case he needs them, but other than that he's using it as fast as he gets it. This in addition to the 12-14 holidays he already gets.
    - nickonline 9y ago
r3ign_codes 9y ago
Why not give women 12 extra days of work from home (when applicable) for a year and see how it goes rather than setting up different rules for different genders? Or am I missing something here?
- ErikVandeWater 9y ago
  Your suggestion is different rules for different genders?
  - r3ign_codes 9y ago
    At least, they would be working rather than taking a day off.
  - b3lvedere 9y ago
    There is no shame in that, given that it is well defined. For instance. In almost all sports you have a male and a female devision. Just based on pure strength or something. Call it what you want. There ARE differences in various humans. Some are male, some are female, some have kids, some don't, some have two legs, some don't, etc. Want to give them all equal chances? Listen to what they can and experience and get them to listen to each other for mutual respect.
    - LunaSea 9y ago
      So based on these differences, women should thus work more hours then men since they have less strength in manual work.
- twobyfour 9y ago
  I'm not saying this isn't a reason to try your proposal, but you may not be aware that for a significant minority of women, period symptoms can be severe enough to make work difficult or impossible, even from home. Severe headaches. Cramps so severe you can't think or sit upright unless on enough painkillers to make your brain nothing but fuzz. (Even OTC painkillers like naproxen that are commonly taken for cramps can affect concentration, not to mention having extremely unpleasant effects on digestion.) Yes, when you're changing tampons every hour, it's less anxiety-inducing to be in the comfort of your own home. But most of the reasons women tend to take sick days during menstruation aren't solved by working remotely.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
dsfyu404ed 9y ago
Nobody is going to take advantage of this because "Oh btw, I'm on the rag so I won't be in today" isn't exactly the message you want to broadcast to your coworkers. Then there will be the people who take advantage of this on Mondays and Fridays leading into long weekends. Then everyone will hate the policy. Then they'll extend the extra 12-days to everyone because you can't take back something like this when you market it this way. Then nothing will get done on Mondays and Fridays leading into long weekends.
- swiley 9y ago
  Are long weekends really such a bad thing?
quirkot 9y ago
Half the women in my office have their schedules synced up. A policy like this could create a monthly ghost town
- throw_throw 9y ago
  I think that's mostly a myth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menstrual_synchrony https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menstrual_synchrony
DanielleMolloy 9y ago
Geez. Completely wrong direction (and probably just marketing) with underlying sexism. Female here. Just want to state that it is not nearly as bad for most women most of the time. And effects vary quite a bit, quite a few even get an energy push around day one. (Disclaimer: Your or your friends' mileage may vary.)
known 9y ago
Let women decide on women issues #HappyToBleed http://menstrupedia.com/ http://menstrupedia.com/
dgudkov 9y ago
In an ideal world where employer and employee trust each other it would be a great option for women who need it (not all women do) and a right thing to do. In the real world, where the level of trust is low, and sexism (both male and female) has become an extremely toxic topic, I don't see how this can work. Maybe only in small family-type companies.

52 points by urahara 9y ago

I fully support letting people go home when they are objectively counterproductive.

Stuff like this, while done with good intentions, can threaten to entrench discrimination by having different sets of rules and expectations for people based on their gender. A better solution would be to give 12 extra holiday days per year to everyone, but make it known that it's acceptable to take them under those circumstances.

colanderman 9y ago
Or allow flexible scheduling around periods.
philipov 9y ago
But doing that doesn't get the same PR credit for fighting sexism, and it costs a whole lot more money, so "what's the point?"
- chii 9y ago
  More people needs to understand that fighting sexism isn't to give females a "better"deal or consideration. It's to ensure there's no discernable difference in treatment. It could be taken to far with unisex toilets, but i don't affirmative action is going to help fight sexism at all.
bigmanwalter 9y ago
Men don't get a day of pain and cramps each month so I don't see why we should get the day off. Periods aren't fun, and I don't think men deserve a day at the golf course in exchange.
- rtx 9y ago
  Neither do all woman.
  - bigmanwalter 9y ago
    They don't have to take the day off then.
    - heythere124 9y ago
      The point is that they can still. Whatever the standard for taking time off work for illness it should apply equally to both genders so there should never be any need for a separate rule/law.
- fredley 9y ago
  It's a tricky one, but on the whole I'm against 'positive' discrimination. It's still discrimination, it can still create contempt and undermine hard work (they're only in that job because they're [a], a smarter [b] probably didn't get the job, etc.) It applies to maternity/paternity leave too. Until maternity and paternity leave are required to be equal by law, there will be a bias against hiring women, due to the simple mathematics. If the 'risk' is equal for a man or a woman, the bias is eliminated.
  - BearGoesChirp 9y ago
    Even if men and women are given the same amount of leave, there are still two problems. First, social norms lead to men and women not using it equally. Second, single individuals don't have equal access given that society has a significant gender disparity in single parents, that men can't get pregnant, and that even if the leave is equal for adoption, there is still discrimination in adoption.
- leroy_masochist 9y ago
  Neither do women who are done menstruating. So employers should hand out a questionnaire to all the women asking who still gets their period? I mean, that's a pretty normal question to ask your coworkers, I'm sure HR would be cool with it. This is way, way easier to just implement as one extra sick day per person per month.
buro9 9y ago
> based on their gender Based on their sex. http://www.med.monash.edu.au/gendermed/sexandgender.html http://www.med.monash.edu.au/gendermed/sexandgender.html > Sex refers to biological differences; chromosomes, hormonal profiles, internal and external sex organs. > Gender describes the characteristics that a society or culture delineates as masculine or feminine. May as well link some script from the Life of Brian to demonstrate that you can identify (gender) as a woman if you are a male but where's the foetus going to gestate (sex). http://montypython.50webs.com/scripts/Life_of_Brian/8.htm http://montypython.50webs.com/scripts/Life_of_Brian/8.htm
- adrianN 9y ago
  https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender
stult 9y ago
13 would be closer to the average ;) But you're right. A number of people I've spoken to about parental leave (not all of whom have been men) are skeptical of paternity leave because they largely see maternity leave as an opportunity to recover from the physical and medical hardships of child birth, with emotional bonding merely an ancillary benefit. Even if that's true, creating gender independent norms avoids giving ammunition to the quietly sexist eye-rollers who use maternity leave to devalue female coworkers. While it would be better to just make a quantum leap to the ideal world where no one holds those opinions in the first place, existing cultural norms and beliefs naturally constrain policy on a pragmatic level and we have to work within those constraints as best we can. It's funny to see these fumbling efforts toward those goals by companies from a different culture than my own, though. I can't imagine even the most politically naive and insensitive American manager suggesting this idea, outside of a Michael Scott from the Office type parody. Is it because we tackled basic issues with women in the workplace earlier than India because we modernized faster? Like is this the sort of idea bumbling Dilbert-esque middle managers in corporate America proposed during the mid-70s? Or is there some underlying difference in cultural taboos about discussing periods? I have to confess that India is one country where I am not very well informed about the culture on the ground as I haven't spent any time there.
dontflamemebro 9y ago
Throwaway because no one wants to hear about periods. I am a woman and one time my body decided to have an extremely heavy and painful flow for about a week straight. I had been sick with a cold immediately before that, so I had already let my employer know that I was not feeling well and would be taking some days off, and I did not feel the need to tell my employer every little detail about what was going on. Every morning I would text something along the lines of, "I'm still not feeling well." After about the third day of being out my boss texted me with a suggestion that I go see a doctor. When I finally got back to the office he wanted to see a doctor's note. I did not go to the doctor, because more extreme bleeding is something that is expected after having an IUD inserted. I was at home in extreme pain, changing out adult diapers about 3 times a day that were completely soaked with blood. I think this 100% is a good enough reason to not come into work, and it's sort of bull that my boss was asking about my personal business when we are already a company that combines sick days with vacation days as PTO. I actually did fill my boss in on all the gory details since he wouldn't let up on the doctor's note, but this is absolutely something that I should NEVER have to disclose to someone to be able to keep my job. I don't really have a good solution here. I want the 12 extra holiday days for everyone solution to work, but there will always be people abusing their limited amount of power to unnecessarily investigate what we are using our PTO for.
- pc86 9y ago
  It's perfectly reasonable for a manager to request a doctor's note if you say "I have a cold and will not be in for a few days" and then you are out for 6+.
  - athenot 9y ago
    Yet it's counter-productive. According to [1], people are contagious for about one week, starting from one day before they feel any symptoms. It is actually more productive to send the sick people home (or let them work at least part-time from home) to prevent others from getting sick and also having to take time off. I've been fortunate enough to work in environments where this was acknowledged and practiced, but I'm always dismayed when hearing from friends/relatives who are required to put in their "time of presence" and get half of their coworkers sick. [Edit] Last point: for the common cold (virus), there's no need for a doctor visit, yet you still need rest and symptom control with OTC meds. [1] http://www.webmd.com/cold-and-flu/how-long-flu-contagious http://www.webmd.com/cold-and-flu/how-long-flu-contagious
DropbearRob 9y ago
I totally get your point, and from a capitalist perspective the solution of the media company in the article dis-incentivises hiring women as a dollar per hour of work metric instantly makes hiring a woman less cost effective. I've seen comments like men don't have the day of pain, so don't "need the holiday" but these people obviously don't own a business or pay other peoples wages. When you are a small business you ensure that you hire people based on the maximum return on investment based on skillset and deliverables. If you have 2 identically skilled and equally hard working employees but one works 12 days less per year and gets the same money, you would hire the one who delivers 12 extra days. If you ignore the sex of the applicants and it was down to a purely financial decision (as it always should be in business, especially publicly traded businesses) then you would be neglecting your responsibilities if you hire someone who costs more and delivers less. The solution may be simply allow flexi-time. Each member of staff must fulfil X number of hours per week, month, year or whatever slice you decide, and when its performed is up to them. This wouldn't work with List-X or restricted sites, where work must be performed on site, but for something like a media company I'm sure you could work from many suitable locations.
- falcolas 9y ago
  The problem with this logic is that you would never hire a woman, for fear that they could get pregnant and become "unreliable" for 9 months, and completely unavailable for the duration of their maternity leave (while having to keep their job position unfilled). It's far better to apply some humanity to the equation and just give everyone those extra 12 days off (and (mat|pat)ernity leave), so you're not tempted to discriminate off the "productivity loss".
  - DropbearRob 9y ago
    Im not saying its humane, or just, or right. Its business. The reason you point out is exactly what has happened in the past. In fact my mum used to work for a company that straight up fired any female staff in the secretary pool which got married to protect themselves from exactly the losses you speak of. Luckily we don't live in that world anymore (40 years ago). And we are working to reduce the dis-incentives of hiring women over men. Im living in the UK where recently paternity and maternity leave are inter-changable and can be split between parents. entitling men to equal leave to women to reduce the incentives of hiring men over women. There are all kinds of times when people become less productive. Im never advocating never hiring a woman, only that whatever benefits you apply to one act as a hiring dis-incentive unless applied by law to both. Its economics, not ethics.
DropbearRob 9y ago
Oh, sorry to double reply, but I just thought of something devious. What if any of the following apply to the female employee: Is on birth control to supress having a period. Has an IUD and is one of the 1 in 5 for whom this stops Having periods for a year. Has had a hysterectomy. Has gone through menopause. Has another condition which causes them to not have periods. do they have their 12 days ripped from them unceremoniously? It seems like there are a lot of edge cases here which may provide additional areas to cry "sexism" because for the cases listed above they wont require the 12 extra days, yet without having intimate medical knowledge of your staff, you cannot differentite between one type of non-period having staff member and another (in the "other" case a male). in any case I'm glad they've done it as a case study on what happens next.
kingofpandora 9y ago
Reminds me of a company in a country I won't name that celebrated International Women's Day by giving each female employee a bouquet of flowers. There may have been good intentions ...

Swizec 9y ago

Question for the women ou there: Do you perceive this as a magnificent idea or as implying women have a periodic weakness that impacts their performance every month? Do you think this sort of policy feeds into wage gap stuff, or fights against it? As a reasonably feminist guy, I can't decide how to feel about this. It seems like it's implying women can't work one day of every month, and also seems like a great idea because dealing with office folk while in pain is not fun. Do you think a policy like this works better (only?) in a predominantly female company?

Everula 9y ago
hey, personally I do feel really bad in the first day and when I need to go to work I always think "I wish I could stay at home and work from there", so it really impacts my performance and from one side it is indeed a great idea, but it is sexism towards men - they also feel bad from time to time, so why not unify this practice for all and just give more paid day-offs / sick leaves, as was already mentioned in the comment above. Also, I am not very comfortable letting everyone in the company know when the period starts and gossip about that (yes, this is also a topic for gossip).
lemondrops 9y ago
Not sure how to feel about this; but I also don't consider myself a women who suffers heavily under period symptoms. If I feel bad enough that I can't do my work properly, I would simply leave, periods or not. (Normal paid sick leave - this is relatively easy in my country.) It has only happened once since I started working full time five years ago, that I was in so much pain from periods that I had to leave work. (And that was after taking two painkillers and even those didn't help.) I certainly think a policy like this would feed into wage gap issues - it would definitely be unfair to pay the same amount of money to two employees, when one of them potentially works 12 days more in a year. It sounds plausible that it would work better in a female dominated company -- I would rather suck up the pain than deal with stupid remarks of my male colleagues because they know I'm on my periods... In general, I think women grow up with having to deal with their periods and the symptoms since childhood/teenage years, so it's just a normal part of life for us. Sure, some women have it way worse that others, but I'd say 90% can cope with it without problems and don't need extra holidays. Though I do like the idea of giving those women in bad pain the opportunity to work from home! It doesn't necessarily help with the symptoms, but at least one can sit somewhere comfortable in PJs with a warm water bottle, which makes it a lot more bearable IMO.

Traubenfuchs 9y ago

That's sexism though.

rishabhd 9y ago
My thoughts exactly.
shanusmagnus 9y ago
What's wrong with being sexy?
saiya-jin 9y ago
exactly! I wonder how much things actually go both ways in mindset of social justice warriors of these days.
matt4077 9y ago
Now I'm wondering if you consider it sexist against men, who are denied this benefit. Or against women, who are (once again) stereotyped as weak and unreliable? I guess the answer is "both". But I can't shake the feeling that this is actually much worse for women than it is for men. In principle, I don't even have a problem with some groups getting a few more days off, or other special arrangements. Some countries have rules for minority religions, for example, allowing them to celebrate their respective holidays. But I can't really imagine any women thinking that this would be a good idea.
- jhasse 9y ago
  It's sexist as it gives people an advantage based on their sex. This is unfair for: * women who are in pain more than one day a month because of their periods * men who have prostate troubles or other illnesses exclusive to men And it gives an unfair advantage to: * women who aren't in pain during their periods * women who have their period less than once a months (for example because of the Pill) The criterion to get the day off shouldn't be "are you women?" but "are you in pain?". They probably chose the former because they think it correlates that much.
- billpg 9y ago

ryanx435 9y ago

interesting. If this ever became law, it would incentivize hiring men over women because you'll get 5% less value out of hiring a woman employee. the math: lets assume that there are 260 working days in a year. women get 12 extra holidays per year for their periods, which means they only work 248 out of the 260 days. 248/260 = 95.4%. very interesting indeed.

robertlagrant 9y ago
Maternity leave in theory has the same disadvantage, as generally women take this more than paternity leave (though I think that's changing) - it can be combatted by public denigration of companies that consider men to be preferable hires on the basis of lower risk of disruption and lower costs. Thus I don't think it'd be a problem.
- deleted 9y ago
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- BearGoesChirp 9y ago
  >it can be combatted by public denigration of companies that consider men to be preferable hires on the basis of lower risk of disruption and lower costs. Was this said in sarcasm? I feel like it was, but I'm not a good judge of when sarcasm is used.
  - robertlagrant 9y ago
    Which bit sounds sarcastic?
jlebrech 9y ago
that's the assumption that a desk job is 8 hours straight productivity. but manual labour might hedge towards male employment, that's true.
- robertlagrant 9y ago
  The numbers scale regardless of what percentage of the day everyone "really works".

jlebrech 9y ago

well intentioned but this could lead to "tests" for women that have issues in that area when the boss thinks she's cheating the system. but giving them 2 extra days to take at their leisure isn't a bad idea imho. but then that would lead to less pay in some instances.

epx 9y ago

My wife has two very bad and painful days (the first two) every period. I am not sure how she would handle if she had a job.

deleted 9y ago
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ygra 9y ago
Sick leave? As far as I know that's exactly what it's for. It also has the benefit of not discriminating whether it's period cramps, migraines, a broken leg, food poisoning, or depression. EDIT: I'm German. Sick leave is completely separate from vacation days here and not limited (although you get less money after six weeks because your health insurance takes over from your employer). Generally I find that one of the only acceptable solution to the problem at hand. Giving half your employees extra days off is a bad idea, conflating vacation and sick leave is a bad idea, and forcing employees to come to work when they're unable to is a bad idea.
- falcolas 9y ago
  Speaking for myself (as a standard US employee with a "progressive" HR, I mean Human Asset Management dept), I get 0 sick days. I get three weeks (15 days) which is supposed to be for both vacation and sickness. Someone who can't work two days a month would either be fired or be taking leave without pay, and never able to take paid vacation.
  - DropbearRob 9y ago
    I feel very sorry for you and others in your position to hear that. the UK has some very forgiving policies on sick leave (https://www.gov.uk/taking-sick-leave https://www.gov.uk/taking-sick-leave). in fact you don't even have to provide a doctors note if you take just a couple of days off.
  - jhasse 9y ago
    Wow. In Germany law grants you at least 24 vacation days per year - and sick days can't be included in that!

perseusprime11 9y ago

My wife would love this if it were implemented here.

nickonline 9y ago

This viewpoint is amazing. It's so brilliantly obvious that it's an American saying this statement due to the horrible laws that are so far in favour of the business it's not funny. In Australia (for example) where I am, annually we have 20 days of leave and 10 sick days by law. Those sick days are available for use for any personal issue be it period pain or mental health. I understand in Europe the leave schedules are event more in favour of the worker we're by no means progressive with the levels of leave we provide.

fredley 9y ago
I'm British, FYI :-) My suggestion, while obviously extreme (flexible scheduling as mentioned elsewhere in this thread would be a much more reasonable 'solution') wouldn't fly in the USA as nobody takes their holiday days anyway!
- kogus 9y ago
  American here. This approach is not common in the US, but it's not totally unknown either. It also addresses issues where people may prefer to take different holidays off based on religious preferences. One person might take Hannukah and another might take Christmas, etc.
- pc86 9y ago
  I don't know where this idea that Americans don't take their vacation time came from, but it is 100% wrong in my opinion. I have coworkers that have had negative PTO balances for months. Whether with PTO or holidays, I try to get at least one 3-4 day weekend each month. I take least one 2-week vacation every year. Everyone I've worked with over the past decade, with rare exception, is the same. A friend of mine is a (non-computer) engineering executive and has a particularly generous PTO package of 200 hours a year with a 400 hour rollover cap. He keeps a bank of about 250 hours in case he needs them, but other than that he's using it as fast as he gets it. This in addition to the 12-14 holidays he already gets.
  - nickonline 9y ago

r3ign_codes 9y ago

Why not give women 12 extra days of work from home (when applicable) for a year and see how it goes rather than setting up different rules for different genders? Or am I missing something here?

ErikVandeWater 9y ago
Your suggestion is different rules for different genders?
- r3ign_codes 9y ago
  At least, they would be working rather than taking a day off.
- b3lvedere 9y ago
  There is no shame in that, given that it is well defined. For instance. In almost all sports you have a male and a female devision. Just based on pure strength or something. Call it what you want. There ARE differences in various humans. Some are male, some are female, some have kids, some don't, some have two legs, some don't, etc. Want to give them all equal chances? Listen to what they can and experience and get them to listen to each other for mutual respect.
  - LunaSea 9y ago
    So based on these differences, women should thus work more hours then men since they have less strength in manual work.
twobyfour 9y ago
I'm not saying this isn't a reason to try your proposal, but you may not be aware that for a significant minority of women, period symptoms can be severe enough to make work difficult or impossible, even from home. Severe headaches. Cramps so severe you can't think or sit upright unless on enough painkillers to make your brain nothing but fuzz. (Even OTC painkillers like naproxen that are commonly taken for cramps can affect concentration, not to mention having extremely unpleasant effects on digestion.) Yes, when you're changing tampons every hour, it's less anxiety-inducing to be in the comfort of your own home. But most of the reasons women tend to take sick days during menstruation aren't solved by working remotely.

deleted 9y ago

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dsfyu404ed 9y ago

Nobody is going to take advantage of this because "Oh btw, I'm on the rag so I won't be in today" isn't exactly the message you want to broadcast to your coworkers. Then there will be the people who take advantage of this on Mondays and Fridays leading into long weekends. Then everyone will hate the policy. Then they'll extend the extra 12-days to everyone because you can't take back something like this when you market it this way. Then nothing will get done on Mondays and Fridays leading into long weekends.

swiley 9y ago
Are long weekends really such a bad thing?

quirkot 9y ago

Half the women in my office have their schedules synced up. A policy like this could create a monthly ghost town

throw_throw 9y ago
I think that's mostly a myth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menstrual_synchrony https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menstrual_synchrony

DanielleMolloy 9y ago

Geez. Completely wrong direction (and probably just marketing) with underlying sexism. Female here. Just want to state that it is not nearly as bad for most women most of the time. And effects vary quite a bit, quite a few even get an energy push around day one. (Disclaimer: Your or your friends' mileage may vary.)

known 9y ago

Let women decide on women issues #HappyToBleed http://menstrupedia.com/ http://menstrupedia.com/

dgudkov 9y ago

In an ideal world where employer and employee trust each other it would be a great option for women who need it (not all women do) and a right thing to do. In the real world, where the level of trust is low, and sexism (both male and female) has become an extremely toxic topic, I don't see how this can work. Maybe only in small family-type companies.