7 ms·

Man, forgive me for being blunt, but there's a lot of loser talk in this thread. "Oh you can't learn from others mistakes, you'll make them, blah blah blah..."

Man, forgive me for being blunt, but there's a lot of loser talk in this thread. "Oh you can't learn from others mistakes, you'll make them, blah blah blah..." - no, this is how people feel better about themselves for having not listened to advice and getting wrecked in their own life because of it. Sure, you'll make mistakes, but you shouldn't just accept wandering blindly through life dealing with stuff. This is what most people do, mind you - wander blindly through life. Like, there's tons of literature on good parenting. How many people read it? Like, none. So then they justify their bad parenting by saying "well, we all have to make our mistakes" - bullshit. Bullshit lazy talk. This is like the "you've got to earn your stripes the hard way" thing - sometimes you do, but sometimes you don't. But people who got their stripes the hard way often hate people who get them an easier way. Ignore those people. Okay, that said, this thread was really good: "Ask HN: What streetsmarts have you learnt?" http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1366217 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1366217 I'll paste my comment from that thread, it's absolutely true and I learned it the hard way. Also, I admire you for being proactive and looking for advice to build a smarter, better life with. -- Track record, track record, track record, track record. Look at the track record. Track records don't lie. Track record, track record, track record. Someone fired from all their jobs is probably going to be a menace later in some form or fashion. Someone who ended all their relationships on bad terms is going to end on bad terms with you. Strong starters/non-finishers are going to start strong but likely won't be able to close it out without extra help later... which you might be oblivious to, because they'd started so strongly. Track records don't lie. Unless you're really good at spotting diamonds in the rough, don't grab someone with a bad track record for an important role in your business and life. I've learned this one the hard way too many times. I still get tempted with, "Wow, this guy/girl is so amazing, the problem must've been the other people..." I'm trying to not do that any more. Once? Quite possibly a fluke. Twice? Maybe... Three times? That's a track record. Also, people will always say they've changed. It's probably a bad idea to be the first person to test out whether it's real or not.

noname123 16y ago
Forgive me also for being blunt ... what if the person who has the poor track records is yourself? I'm of course referring to myself and others who don't have as a tough sounding username as lionhearted. I think we give the benefit of doubt to people that we could relate to, who have had the same disadvantages and flaws as ourselves (after all, to not do so is to reject ourselves). Does your statement imply that we should try to align ourselves with those who have better track records than our own, and vice versa for those who are inferior? I'm not trying to be facetious, but trying to get you to elaborate applying what you said in a real world context.
- lionhearted 16y ago
  > what if the person who has the poor track records is yourself? Build a track record! :) The problem with people without track records is that often they talk a good game but haven't built up their game. You goal shouldn't be to convince people that you're now [loyal / effective / honest / disciplined / whatever], it should be to actually build that quality in yourself. Everyone's got no track record at some point. Build yours. Accomplish things. Be loyal. Keep growing and learning and doing things. Mostly - do things as much as possible as fast as possible. "Quantity always trumps quality" - http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2008/08/quantity-always-trumps-quality.html http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2008/08/quantity-always-tru... > Does your statement imply that we should try to align ourselves with those who have better track records than our own, and vice versa for those who are inferior? It's not about better/inferior - it means people will usually continue to do what they've done in the past, as opposed to what they say they're going to do. You should look to associate yourself with people you admire and like, and you should also look to find people on their way up and help them too. I don't think I've ever quoted the Bible before, but this about covers it: "To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven. A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to reap that which is planted. A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to to mourn, and a time to dance. A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing. A time to get and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away; A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence and a time to speak; A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace." > I'm not trying to be facetious, but trying to get you to elaborate applying what you said in a real world context. Okay, ultra-practical rendition: -Avoid men/women with a history of nasty endings to their relationships, even if they're charming... -Avoid hiring people who look extremely talented but flame out without producing -Avoid working for people that everyone says is a terrible/mean/awful boss/client/whatever, even if they seem okay -Feel free to break this if you have a particularly good eye for talent, but only then -If someone has rehabilitated themself, you'll generally see a good track record coming from them quickly. People can accomplish and build and do good things pretty quick after improving. Don't take anyone's word that they've improved without results, because everyone says that. Anyway, don't sweat if you have a mixed or poor track record yet, just start building yours as quickly as you can. Accomplish things, build things, learn, and serve people, and don't forget to get some of the value you create for accomplishing, building, and serving - helping is good, but it's totally fair to get some of the value you created. As you accomplish more things, people come to know and respect you as a guy that gets things done, is a good guy, and accomplishes things. Then people want to work with you. It's a virtuous cycle.
ErrantX 16y ago
While there is truth in what you say I can only quote (or rather paraphrase from memory) Michael Mcintyre: have you ever noticed with ATM's, you go up to it and it says "no, I have no money for you, go away". So, like a good citizen you turn round to the man behind you in the queue and say "it is out of money". And he says "thank you.....", and then steps up to try for himself anyway. "thanks, but I don't believe you, it will work for me". So, no, you don't have to "learn things the hard way". But most people nod sagely when you give them advice and then do it anyway :) (and that is a good thing IMO) (I agree with your track records thing; it's too easy to imagine you are giving a "last chance" and that it will really work out this time).
dan00 16y ago
"Like, there's tons of literature on good parenting. How many people read it? Like, none." I think that's a really bad example. There's a lot of bullshit in the parenting literature. In a way I find it very disturbing, that we need to learn how to parent our children.
- cookiecaper 16y ago
  I agree that there's a lot of junk out there. Almost all the "professional", published advice I've skimmed or read on pregnancy, for instance, amounts to "do whatever the pregnant lady says". Somehow I find this less likely to be good advice and more likely to be fodder for sales, to get women to buy a so-called "authoritative" source that justifies unreasonable behavior under the guise of pregnancy.
- edanm 16y ago
  "In a way I find it very disturbing, that we need to learn how to parent our children." Really? Why? I've never understood why people look at parenting differently than any other skill you have to learn.
  - pbhjpbhj 16y ago
    >I've never understood why people look at parenting differently than any other skill you have to learn. Parenting should be assimilated (learnt if you like) gradually over time from those around you. Humans IMO function best as family groups within a [close-knit] tribal system: under such a regime one learns from one's own parents, parents of peers, parents of younger children, older intra-generation peers and peers as parents as well as from looking after younger children as a child, looking after younger children as a teen, ... you get the idea. Even under such a regime it's possible that you can learn "better" parenting from outside the group but you're going to be able to actually do it already just like learning to eat or prepare food. The thing is we mostly don't have such a structure. It seems to me that society is in death throes; that as populations burgeon so we value one another and interaction with one another less-and-less. But perhaps this is just me; I tend to be too introverted and pessimistic for my own good.
silvestrov 16y ago
Look at the context for the track record: was it against all odds, or were they raised with a silver spoon? It is much easier to get ahead when having good loving parents, good teachers, good friends, but there might not be much of a fighter in those champions. and definitely: people who bad-mouth others will bad-mouth you when you leave, no matter how noble you behave. But you still have to be noble to avoid your actions coming back and biting your ass.
- lsc 16y ago
  how about "people will bad-mouth you." full stop. There is nothing you can do to stop it. Now, how you respond says a lot, especially if you own a business, and people are bad-mouthing you on 'the permanent record' 1. don't respond as if you are taking it personally. Sure, being attacked unfairly by a customer feels like a fist to the gut. But it's not. This won't burst your spleen. Man up and act rationally. 2. acknowledge problems the badmouther brings up, if some of them are valid complaints. Explain how you are trying to prevent those problems from happening again. If possible, offer a refund, etc. 3. try to deflect invalid complaints without getting angry. Fear is not the mind killer. Anger is the mind killer. If the badmouther is being unreasonable, it's likely that others will see this as well, (If others don't see this... perhaps your idea of reasonable needs to be re-calibrated?) If you can't deal with this in a calm manner, don't say anything at all. personal attacks in response to personal attacks will make you look like a 15 year old or a politician, in any case, nobody anyone wants to do business with.
leelin 16y ago
Weird, isn't your comment a bit self-contradicting? Above the <hr> fold: "Stop the loser talk. You can learn from others' mistakes. Your fate is not sealed." Below the fold: "Track record is king. It's all DNA. People don't change. Your fate is sealed." FWIW, I tend to agree more with your below-the-fold views based on most people I've met.
- lionhearted 16y ago
  > Below the fold: "Track record is king. It's all DNA. People don't change. Your fate is sealed." You read it wrong - it's not about DNA or fate. It's about what a person has done recently. It's a good predictor of what they're going to do next. As soon as someone changes for real, they build a new and healthy track record. In general, you should weight a person's actions - track record - over what they say. It's a people skills thing more than a destiny-predicting thing. > FWIW, I tend to agree more with your below-the-fold views based on most people I've met. Huh, well, I admire you saying that, it's not a fashionable viewpoint these days. I'd predict a person's actions 95% by what they've done recently and 5% what they talk about, but I think it's possible for anyone to change through incremental improvement. Many people won't, but everyone could. There's always some little incremental improvement you could make. But for important roles in your life, you can't gamble - look for someone with a good track unless you're in a position to make a good evaluation, and be careful even then.
  - thecircusb0y 16y ago
    Isn't it possible that a person will act the same based on track record because their environment is always the same and therefore there isn't an incentive to change their habits, especially if they are unaware of this? People can change enough to make a big difference when their eyes are opened and they realize what really matters in life. I've seen it happen.
    - lsc 16y ago
      Yes, but creating that environment for change is a pretty difficult task. As an example, several times I've hired people who did customer support before to do customer support for me, and de-training all the customer-hostile and ultimately time-wasting behaviors is really hard. I mean, sure, it can be done, if you understand the behaviors and values you want, and if the employee is willing to work with you, but it is /hard/ My experience with this sort of thing is that if the person looks like they failed in the past due to having a bad boss[1], yeah, I can fix it. But otherwise? you are in for a whole lot of work with a very small chance of success. Sometimes, it's worth it, but you need to go in with your eyes open. [1] oh man, bad bosses do a whole lot of damage. that's the funny thing; I don't think a good boss, even a really good boss helps all that much. I mean, sure, they help a little. I try to be a good boss. But a bad boss can easily swing productivity in to the negative. Goal one is to not be a bad boss.
mccon104 16y ago
First - do everyone a favor and throw this "If I say bullshit enough people will think I'm good at spotting it" mindset out. While you're at leave the "there's a lot of loser talk in this thread" talk to trolls. Second - Why in gods name would you teach yourself to view people so one dimensionally? You sound like a College Admissions rep only interested in a persons GPA. I appreciate the basic notion, that execution matters more than words but I wouldn't waste my breath telling my naive self that. I was far too naive to take that advice to heart. And I surely wouldn't tell myself to not be the first to give someone a second chance. I don't know what I'd tell myself, I haven't put my mind there yet, but I do know for damn sure that it wouldn't involve such a cold finite tone.
brc 16y ago
>Someone fired from all their jobs is probably going to be a menace later in some form or fashion. >Someone who ended all their relationships on bad terms is going to end on bad terms with you. This was an important lesson for me recently. I had a friend I was spending quite a lot of time with, and was discussing starting businesses with. One day it dawned on me that there was not one job, friendship or relationship this person had not ended, usually badly. Then I realised that I was just about their only current friend, which made me realise this person eventually fell out with all their friends. Seeing the writing on the wall I staged a gradual withdrawal, and remain friendly but not friends.

noname123 16y ago

Forgive me also for being blunt ... what if the person who has the poor track records is yourself? I'm of course referring to myself and others who don't have as a tough sounding username as lionhearted. I think we give the benefit of doubt to people that we could relate to, who have had the same disadvantages and flaws as ourselves (after all, to not do so is to reject ourselves). Does your statement imply that we should try to align ourselves with those who have better track records than our own, and vice versa for those who are inferior? I'm not trying to be facetious, but trying to get you to elaborate applying what you said in a real world context.

lionhearted 16y ago
> what if the person who has the poor track records is yourself? Build a track record! :) The problem with people without track records is that often they talk a good game but haven't built up their game. You goal shouldn't be to convince people that you're now [loyal / effective / honest / disciplined / whatever], it should be to actually build that quality in yourself. Everyone's got no track record at some point. Build yours. Accomplish things. Be loyal. Keep growing and learning and doing things. Mostly - do things as much as possible as fast as possible. "Quantity always trumps quality" - http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2008/08/quantity-always-trumps-quality.html http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2008/08/quantity-always-tru... > Does your statement imply that we should try to align ourselves with those who have better track records than our own, and vice versa for those who are inferior? It's not about better/inferior - it means people will usually continue to do what they've done in the past, as opposed to what they say they're going to do. You should look to associate yourself with people you admire and like, and you should also look to find people on their way up and help them too. I don't think I've ever quoted the Bible before, but this about covers it: "To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven. A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to reap that which is planted. A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to to mourn, and a time to dance. A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing. A time to get and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away; A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence and a time to speak; A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace." > I'm not trying to be facetious, but trying to get you to elaborate applying what you said in a real world context. Okay, ultra-practical rendition: -Avoid men/women with a history of nasty endings to their relationships, even if they're charming... -Avoid hiring people who look extremely talented but flame out without producing -Avoid working for people that everyone says is a terrible/mean/awful boss/client/whatever, even if they seem okay -Feel free to break this if you have a particularly good eye for talent, but only then -If someone has rehabilitated themself, you'll generally see a good track record coming from them quickly. People can accomplish and build and do good things pretty quick after improving. Don't take anyone's word that they've improved without results, because everyone says that. Anyway, don't sweat if you have a mixed or poor track record yet, just start building yours as quickly as you can. Accomplish things, build things, learn, and serve people, and don't forget to get some of the value you create for accomplishing, building, and serving - helping is good, but it's totally fair to get some of the value you created. As you accomplish more things, people come to know and respect you as a guy that gets things done, is a good guy, and accomplishes things. Then people want to work with you. It's a virtuous cycle.

ErrantX 16y ago

While there is truth in what you say I can only quote (or rather paraphrase from memory) Michael Mcintyre: have you ever noticed with ATM's, you go up to it and it says "no, I have no money for you, go away". So, like a good citizen you turn round to the man behind you in the queue and say "it is out of money". And he says "thank you.....", and then steps up to try for himself anyway. "thanks, but I don't believe you, it will work for me". So, no, you don't have to "learn things the hard way". But most people nod sagely when you give them advice and then do it anyway :) (and that is a good thing IMO) (I agree with your track records thing; it's too easy to imagine you are giving a "last chance" and that it will really work out this time).

dan00 16y ago

"Like, there's tons of literature on good parenting. How many people read it? Like, none." I think that's a really bad example. There's a lot of bullshit in the parenting literature. In a way I find it very disturbing, that we need to learn how to parent our children.

cookiecaper 16y ago
I agree that there's a lot of junk out there. Almost all the "professional", published advice I've skimmed or read on pregnancy, for instance, amounts to "do whatever the pregnant lady says". Somehow I find this less likely to be good advice and more likely to be fodder for sales, to get women to buy a so-called "authoritative" source that justifies unreasonable behavior under the guise of pregnancy.
edanm 16y ago
"In a way I find it very disturbing, that we need to learn how to parent our children." Really? Why? I've never understood why people look at parenting differently than any other skill you have to learn.
- pbhjpbhj 16y ago
  >I've never understood why people look at parenting differently than any other skill you have to learn. Parenting should be assimilated (learnt if you like) gradually over time from those around you. Humans IMO function best as family groups within a [close-knit] tribal system: under such a regime one learns from one's own parents, parents of peers, parents of younger children, older intra-generation peers and peers as parents as well as from looking after younger children as a child, looking after younger children as a teen, ... you get the idea. Even under such a regime it's possible that you can learn "better" parenting from outside the group but you're going to be able to actually do it already just like learning to eat or prepare food. The thing is we mostly don't have such a structure. It seems to me that society is in death throes; that as populations burgeon so we value one another and interaction with one another less-and-less. But perhaps this is just me; I tend to be too introverted and pessimistic for my own good.

silvestrov 16y ago

Look at the context for the track record: was it against all odds, or were they raised with a silver spoon? It is much easier to get ahead when having good loving parents, good teachers, good friends, but there might not be much of a fighter in those champions. and definitely: people who bad-mouth others will bad-mouth you when you leave, no matter how noble you behave. But you still have to be noble to avoid your actions coming back and biting your ass.

lsc 16y ago
how about "people will bad-mouth you." full stop. There is nothing you can do to stop it. Now, how you respond says a lot, especially if you own a business, and people are bad-mouthing you on 'the permanent record' 1. don't respond as if you are taking it personally. Sure, being attacked unfairly by a customer feels like a fist to the gut. But it's not. This won't burst your spleen. Man up and act rationally. 2. acknowledge problems the badmouther brings up, if some of them are valid complaints. Explain how you are trying to prevent those problems from happening again. If possible, offer a refund, etc. 3. try to deflect invalid complaints without getting angry. Fear is not the mind killer. Anger is the mind killer. If the badmouther is being unreasonable, it's likely that others will see this as well, (If others don't see this... perhaps your idea of reasonable needs to be re-calibrated?) If you can't deal with this in a calm manner, don't say anything at all. personal attacks in response to personal attacks will make you look like a 15 year old or a politician, in any case, nobody anyone wants to do business with.

leelin 16y ago

Weird, isn't your comment a bit self-contradicting? Above the <hr> fold: "Stop the loser talk. You can learn from others' mistakes. Your fate is not sealed." Below the fold: "Track record is king. It's all DNA. People don't change. Your fate is sealed." FWIW, I tend to agree more with your below-the-fold views based on most people I've met.

lionhearted 16y ago
> Below the fold: "Track record is king. It's all DNA. People don't change. Your fate is sealed." You read it wrong - it's not about DNA or fate. It's about what a person has done recently. It's a good predictor of what they're going to do next. As soon as someone changes for real, they build a new and healthy track record. In general, you should weight a person's actions - track record - over what they say. It's a people skills thing more than a destiny-predicting thing. > FWIW, I tend to agree more with your below-the-fold views based on most people I've met. Huh, well, I admire you saying that, it's not a fashionable viewpoint these days. I'd predict a person's actions 95% by what they've done recently and 5% what they talk about, but I think it's possible for anyone to change through incremental improvement. Many people won't, but everyone could. There's always some little incremental improvement you could make. But for important roles in your life, you can't gamble - look for someone with a good track unless you're in a position to make a good evaluation, and be careful even then.
- thecircusb0y 16y ago
  Isn't it possible that a person will act the same based on track record because their environment is always the same and therefore there isn't an incentive to change their habits, especially if they are unaware of this? People can change enough to make a big difference when their eyes are opened and they realize what really matters in life. I've seen it happen.
  - lsc 16y ago
    Yes, but creating that environment for change is a pretty difficult task. As an example, several times I've hired people who did customer support before to do customer support for me, and de-training all the customer-hostile and ultimately time-wasting behaviors is really hard. I mean, sure, it can be done, if you understand the behaviors and values you want, and if the employee is willing to work with you, but it is /hard/ My experience with this sort of thing is that if the person looks like they failed in the past due to having a bad boss[1], yeah, I can fix it. But otherwise? you are in for a whole lot of work with a very small chance of success. Sometimes, it's worth it, but you need to go in with your eyes open. [1] oh man, bad bosses do a whole lot of damage. that's the funny thing; I don't think a good boss, even a really good boss helps all that much. I mean, sure, they help a little. I try to be a good boss. But a bad boss can easily swing productivity in to the negative. Goal one is to not be a bad boss.

mccon104 16y ago

First - do everyone a favor and throw this "If I say bullshit enough people will think I'm good at spotting it" mindset out. While you're at leave the "there's a lot of loser talk in this thread" talk to trolls. Second - Why in gods name would you teach yourself to view people so one dimensionally? You sound like a College Admissions rep only interested in a persons GPA. I appreciate the basic notion, that execution matters more than words but I wouldn't waste my breath telling my naive self that. I was far too naive to take that advice to heart. And I surely wouldn't tell myself to not be the first to give someone a second chance. I don't know what I'd tell myself, I haven't put my mind there yet, but I do know for damn sure that it wouldn't involve such a cold finite tone.

brc 16y ago

>Someone fired from all their jobs is probably going to be a menace later in some form or fashion. >Someone who ended all their relationships on bad terms is going to end on bad terms with you. This was an important lesson for me recently. I had a friend I was spending quite a lot of time with, and was discussing starting businesses with. One day it dawned on me that there was not one job, friendship or relationship this person had not ended, usually badly. Then I realised that I was just about their only current friend, which made me realise this person eventually fell out with all their friends. Seeing the writing on the wall I staged a gradual withdrawal, and remain friendly but not friends.