24 ms·

Attempts to take off from or land on taxiways are alarmingly common, including those by Harrison Ford: Harrison Ford won't face disciplinary action for landi

by ddeck 9y ago

Attempts to take off from or land on taxiways are alarmingly common, including those by Harrison Ford: Harrison Ford won't face disciplinary action for landing on a taxiway at John Wayne Airport [1] Serious incident: Finnair A340 attempts takeoff from Hong Kong taxiway [2] HK Airlines 737 tries to take off from taxiway [3] Passenger plane lands on the TAXIWAY instead of runway in fourth incident of its kind at Seattle airport [4] [1] http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-ford-taxiway-agreement-20170331-story.html http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-ford-taxiway-agr... [2] https://news.aviation-safety.net/2010/12/03/serious-incident-finnair-a340-attempts-takeoff-from-hong-kong-taxiway/ https://news.aviation-safety.net/2010/12/03/serious-incident... [3] https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/hk-airlines-tries-to-take-off-from-taxiway-316283/ https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/hk-airlines-tries... [4] http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-3378645/Passenger-plane-lands-TAXIWAY-instead-runway-fourth-incident-kind-Seattle-airport.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-337864...

wfunction 9y ago
Why in the world is this even a problem? Shouldn't what's a taxiway and what's not be indicated on maps or diagrams or something that pilots can see?
- Tuxer 9y ago
  (pilot here) Yes, they are very well shown on maps, but it can be hard to map your diagram to what you're seeing, especially if it's raining or if it's at night, and even more if you're tired. I never made the mistake, but can see how somebody in bad conditions would.
  - wfunction 9y ago
    Thanks! But why do you even have to map your diagram to what you're seeing? Isn't there a GPS system that shows you exactly where you are on the map and where you are going to go in the next few minutes? It doesn't seem like there should be any mental or visual processing to figure out that you're heading toward the wrong runway, right?
    - cyberferret 9y ago
      It's a matter of scale. Even on a modern HSI, the difference in distance between the runway and the parallel taxiway is probably the width of the indicator icon. Very hard to see on instruments. Much easier to see by looking out the windscreen.
      - wfunction 9y ago
        I can't tell if my expectations are just too high, but the impression I'm getting from all your answers is that pilots just don't have a dynamically updating (i.e. digital) map. It seems like everything is a bunch of numbers the poor pilots have to crunch or ticks that they have to count correctly or sheets of paper they have to pass to each other with diagrams. Why in the world is the system so ancient in 2017? Google Maps on my phone can show me where I am within 10 meters and where I'm going for the next 10 minutes, and it automatically zooms in and out at turning points... why can't an airplane have a display that shows them where they are and where they're going within the next minute?
        cyberferret 9y ago
        Ironically, it is mainly because of reliability. Every system on an aircraft HAS to have double or triple redundancy by law, and a lot of these systems ARE antiquated by usual consumer standards. A lot of pilots these days have iPads in the cockpit to assist with this, but in nearly all airlines and aircraft types, these are unauthorised devices that are not part of the certification. Generally they are used for non critical things like manuals or checklists, but I know of pilots that use them for situational awareness as well. In an accident though, this may work against them, badly. Yes, it is the old legal and liability issue. Aircraft systems should be upgraded, but the cost of upgrading an entire fleet is prohibitive for most airlines that are already operating on the smell of an oily rag. New generation aircraft are getting better at it though. Like I mentioned before, I believe the 787 now has a HUD of sorts, which is long overdue.
        wfunction 9y ago
- cyberferret 9y ago
  Because the pilot is almost never looking at a map on final approach. He is looking out the window, and in the dawn/dusk light, or with a setting sun in the background or inclement weather etc., a taxiway can look exactly like a runway. Don't forget that almost all taxiways run parallel to the runway, for about the same length. (NB: I used to be a commercial pilot.) In most airports I flew into, the surface material for the taxiways was different from the runway, so sometimes the taxiway could end up looking brighter and more prevalent than the runway under certain lighting conditions. Yep, I have had moments of confusion when on long finals into an unfamiliar airport. Never to the point of actually ending up landing on the taxiway, but the confusion is a thing that pilots have to contend with.
  - willidiots 9y ago
    Seems like a design flaw. Do any taxiways have markings etc. to make them more distinguishable?
    - cyberferret 9y ago
      They do. They have different lighting systems/colours etc. to differentiate them. Taxiways generally have green lights along the centerline to guide aircraft rolling on the ground, but runways usually have white (bright) lights along the edges. There are times when even THAT causes confusion, because sometimes the taxiway centreline lights can look like the edge lights of the runway - especially if the light is refracting off a wet windscreen. So, in the end the problem is generally avoidable, but if you are on finals at a really busy airport after a gruelling 20 hours trans oceanic flight, at night, in the rain, and the tower is trying to hurry you up to expedite traffic, you can make mistakes.
      - kobeya 9y ago
        Seems like a very good argument for autopilot landings.
        tjohns 9y ago
- laydn 9y ago
  If you watch any 28R approach video for SFO on YouTube, you'll be even more surprised. Because there is no way you can mistake the taxiway for the runway. There is a huge array of lights pointing the pilot towards the runway. I would imagine this would be more of a problem during the day because the lights are not as bright compared to the ambient light. I would think the best way to get this detected early would be to integrate some logic into the ATC radar. As the plane gets closer to the runway (or taxiway!), it should be easy to tell where the pilot is going by looking at the track and issue an automated warning.
sohkamyung 9y ago
There was also SIA Flight 006 which crashed while taking off from the wrong (closed) runway at Taiwan[1], which was big local news in Singapore at the time. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapore_Airlines_Flight_006 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapore_Airlines_Flight_006
- jpatokal 9y ago
  Mistaking runway 05R for 05L when both are parallel is more understandable though. It was also at night, in poor weather, and the airport had not blocked off the unusable runway (!) and did not have the gear to track aircraft locations on the ground.
  - peteretep 9y ago
    I'm surprised there isn't more explicit tooling in the cockpit to stop that happening
    - FussyZeus 9y ago
      As I understand it, planes are largely automated but the automated components will always defer to the pilots whenever action is taken. I would hope with the amount of training required to do that job that the pilot would be the half of that equation to defer to.
      - AnimalMuppet 9y ago
        As I understand it (but I am not a pilot), that's true of Boeing planes, but not true of Airbus. Airbus makes the pilots defer to the automation.
anovikov 9y ago
This is facilitated by the fact that in some airports, taxiways and runways are similar and sometimes even used interchangeably (!), i.e. a runway may be remarked as taxiway and vice versa. So it's not 'how can he be so dumb' moment, in some case you have no way to tell the difference unless you just know.
- gambiting 9y ago
  It feels like it could be solved incredibly easily by a row of lights at the beginning/end of both the taxiway and the runway, bright red for taxiway, bright green for the runway. If you are attempting to land on the strip marked red, then you are doing something wrong. In case that the taxiway is legitimately used for landing, change the colours around. I guess it hasn't been done for "reasons", I'd be quite interested in hearing why.
  - dgoldstein0 9y ago
    this sounds like the start of a good idea, but we should choose something that works for colorblind people and red/green colorblind people too.
    - gambiting 9y ago
      Stupid question - can you be certified as a commercial pilot if you are colourblind?
      - briandear 9y ago
        You can’t even be certificated as a Private Pilot if you are colorblind.
        phdp 9y ago
        Not true at all. https://www.aopa.org/go-fly/medical-resources/health-conditions/vision/color-restriction-removal https://www.aopa.org/go-fly/medical-resources/health-conditi...
rrmm 9y ago
There was a Delta incident at KATL where a plane landed on a taxiway. NTSB report: https://www.ntsb.gov/about/employment/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20091020X05636&ntsbno=OPS10IA001&akey=1 https://www.ntsb.gov/about/employment/_layouts/ntsb.aviation... Here is a comment from the NTSB report: """ Observations made from the flight deck during the flight test approaches indicated that when the lights were set to the same levels as were encountered by the incident crew, from about DEPOT intersection, the runway 27R centerline lights were not identifiable and the taxiway M centerline lights were more prominent. When established on final, the taxiway signs were more visible than runway 27R edge lights. At about 500 feet above ground level the runway centerline lights were barely visible and it appeared that some lights may have been out. The color of the blue taxiway edge lights became distinguishable at about 500 feet above ground level while on approach. """

by ddeck 9y ago

wfunction 9y ago

Why in the world is this even a problem? Shouldn't what's a taxiway and what's not be indicated on maps or diagrams or something that pilots can see?

Tuxer 9y ago
(pilot here) Yes, they are very well shown on maps, but it can be hard to map your diagram to what you're seeing, especially if it's raining or if it's at night, and even more if you're tired. I never made the mistake, but can see how somebody in bad conditions would.
- wfunction 9y ago
  Thanks! But why do you even have to map your diagram to what you're seeing? Isn't there a GPS system that shows you exactly where you are on the map and where you are going to go in the next few minutes? It doesn't seem like there should be any mental or visual processing to figure out that you're heading toward the wrong runway, right?
  - cyberferret 9y ago
    It's a matter of scale. Even on a modern HSI, the difference in distance between the runway and the parallel taxiway is probably the width of the indicator icon. Very hard to see on instruments. Much easier to see by looking out the windscreen.
    - wfunction 9y ago
      I can't tell if my expectations are just too high, but the impression I'm getting from all your answers is that pilots just don't have a dynamically updating (i.e. digital) map. It seems like everything is a bunch of numbers the poor pilots have to crunch or ticks that they have to count correctly or sheets of paper they have to pass to each other with diagrams. Why in the world is the system so ancient in 2017? Google Maps on my phone can show me where I am within 10 meters and where I'm going for the next 10 minutes, and it automatically zooms in and out at turning points... why can't an airplane have a display that shows them where they are and where they're going within the next minute?
      - cyberferret 9y ago
        Ironically, it is mainly because of reliability. Every system on an aircraft HAS to have double or triple redundancy by law, and a lot of these systems ARE antiquated by usual consumer standards. A lot of pilots these days have iPads in the cockpit to assist with this, but in nearly all airlines and aircraft types, these are unauthorised devices that are not part of the certification. Generally they are used for non critical things like manuals or checklists, but I know of pilots that use them for situational awareness as well. In an accident though, this may work against them, badly. Yes, it is the old legal and liability issue. Aircraft systems should be upgraded, but the cost of upgrading an entire fleet is prohibitive for most airlines that are already operating on the smell of an oily rag. New generation aircraft are getting better at it though. Like I mentioned before, I believe the 787 now has a HUD of sorts, which is long overdue.
        wfunction 9y ago
cyberferret 9y ago
Because the pilot is almost never looking at a map on final approach. He is looking out the window, and in the dawn/dusk light, or with a setting sun in the background or inclement weather etc., a taxiway can look exactly like a runway. Don't forget that almost all taxiways run parallel to the runway, for about the same length. (NB: I used to be a commercial pilot.) In most airports I flew into, the surface material for the taxiways was different from the runway, so sometimes the taxiway could end up looking brighter and more prevalent than the runway under certain lighting conditions. Yep, I have had moments of confusion when on long finals into an unfamiliar airport. Never to the point of actually ending up landing on the taxiway, but the confusion is a thing that pilots have to contend with.
- willidiots 9y ago
  Seems like a design flaw. Do any taxiways have markings etc. to make them more distinguishable?
  - cyberferret 9y ago
    They do. They have different lighting systems/colours etc. to differentiate them. Taxiways generally have green lights along the centerline to guide aircraft rolling on the ground, but runways usually have white (bright) lights along the edges. There are times when even THAT causes confusion, because sometimes the taxiway centreline lights can look like the edge lights of the runway - especially if the light is refracting off a wet windscreen. So, in the end the problem is generally avoidable, but if you are on finals at a really busy airport after a gruelling 20 hours trans oceanic flight, at night, in the rain, and the tower is trying to hurry you up to expedite traffic, you can make mistakes.
    - kobeya 9y ago
      Seems like a very good argument for autopilot landings.
      - tjohns 9y ago
laydn 9y ago
If you watch any 28R approach video for SFO on YouTube, you'll be even more surprised. Because there is no way you can mistake the taxiway for the runway. There is a huge array of lights pointing the pilot towards the runway. I would imagine this would be more of a problem during the day because the lights are not as bright compared to the ambient light. I would think the best way to get this detected early would be to integrate some logic into the ATC radar. As the plane gets closer to the runway (or taxiway!), it should be easy to tell where the pilot is going by looking at the track and issue an automated warning.

sohkamyung 9y ago

There was also SIA Flight 006 which crashed while taking off from the wrong (closed) runway at Taiwan[1], which was big local news in Singapore at the time. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapore_Airlines_Flight_006 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapore_Airlines_Flight_006

jpatokal 9y ago
Mistaking runway 05R for 05L when both are parallel is more understandable though. It was also at night, in poor weather, and the airport had not blocked off the unusable runway (!) and did not have the gear to track aircraft locations on the ground.
- peteretep 9y ago
  I'm surprised there isn't more explicit tooling in the cockpit to stop that happening
  - FussyZeus 9y ago
    As I understand it, planes are largely automated but the automated components will always defer to the pilots whenever action is taken. I would hope with the amount of training required to do that job that the pilot would be the half of that equation to defer to.
    - AnimalMuppet 9y ago
      As I understand it (but I am not a pilot), that's true of Boeing planes, but not true of Airbus. Airbus makes the pilots defer to the automation.

anovikov 9y ago

This is facilitated by the fact that in some airports, taxiways and runways are similar and sometimes even used interchangeably (!), i.e. a runway may be remarked as taxiway and vice versa. So it's not 'how can he be so dumb' moment, in some case you have no way to tell the difference unless you just know.

gambiting 9y ago
It feels like it could be solved incredibly easily by a row of lights at the beginning/end of both the taxiway and the runway, bright red for taxiway, bright green for the runway. If you are attempting to land on the strip marked red, then you are doing something wrong. In case that the taxiway is legitimately used for landing, change the colours around. I guess it hasn't been done for "reasons", I'd be quite interested in hearing why.
- dgoldstein0 9y ago
  this sounds like the start of a good idea, but we should choose something that works for colorblind people and red/green colorblind people too.
  - gambiting 9y ago
    Stupid question - can you be certified as a commercial pilot if you are colourblind?
    - briandear 9y ago
      You can’t even be certificated as a Private Pilot if you are colorblind.
      - phdp 9y ago
        Not true at all. https://www.aopa.org/go-fly/medical-resources/health-conditions/vision/color-restriction-removal https://www.aopa.org/go-fly/medical-resources/health-conditi...

rrmm 9y ago

There was a Delta incident at KATL where a plane landed on a taxiway. NTSB report: https://www.ntsb.gov/about/employment/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20091020X05636&ntsbno=OPS10IA001&akey=1 https://www.ntsb.gov/about/employment/_layouts/ntsb.aviation... Here is a comment from the NTSB report: """ Observations made from the flight deck during the flight test approaches indicated that when the lights were set to the same levels as were encountered by the incident crew, from about DEPOT intersection, the runway 27R centerline lights were not identifiable and the taxiway M centerline lights were more prominent. When established on final, the taxiway signs were more visible than runway 27R edge lights. At about 500 feet above ground level the runway centerline lights were barely visible and it appeared that some lights may have been out. The color of the blue taxiway edge lights became distinguishable at about 500 feet above ground level while on approach. """