7 ms·

What a world we could have if companies realized they could sidestep this problem entirely if they hired remote workers.

StavrosK 9y ago
Don't be silly; you can't trust people to do any work unless you're standing over their shoulder.
chii 9y ago
but then how would the boss micromanage you!?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- placebo 9y ago
  Thank you for a great idea for my next startup - an application to micromanage remote workers. It will be even better than office micromanagement since the boss will have a large screen where all the remote desktops will be visible and under control simultaneously and the boss will be able to assist remote developers get back on track should they ever consider taking any initiative or heaven forbid be creative. It will also make it much easier to spot activities that do not seem to be directly work related. I feel I'm really on to something :-)
  - marsRoverDev 9y ago
    This is already a thing, Upwork/odesk automatically screenshot freelancer's desktops and make them visible to the clients: https://support.upwork.com/hc/en-us/articles/211068518-Use-Your-Work-Diary https://support.upwork.com/hc/en-us/articles/211068518-Use-Y...
    - gaius 9y ago
      records the total number of mouse clicks, scroll actions, and keystrokes What amazing metrics they have! /s
internobody 9y ago
Not everybody wants to work remote. Some folks enjoy the social aspects of an office. Those people won't be attracted to this location.
- 59nadir 9y ago
  What I'm saying is that a company that hires remotely very likely won't have issues hiring, because they haven't arbitrarily decided that what they do requires everyone to be in the same office. If you're trying to hire for a place people don't want to work in or if you're having issues with skill levels of new hires, the solution is to widen the net: Not in terms of skill ranges, but in terms of geography. Not everyone wants to work remotely and that's fine. Especially considering that for the vast majority of people, there is someone better than them out there that desperately wants remote work.
  - kjs3 9y ago
    The assumption that decisions that disagree with you are "arbitrary" doesn't help your argument.
  - unityByFreedom 9y ago
    > a company that hires remotely very likely won't have issues hiring, because they haven't arbitrarily decided that what they do requires everyone to be in the same office. Right, no issues hiring, but maybe some issues managing, communicating effectively, and completing work. You're potentially trading one set of problems for another. Perhaps they've tried a bit of remote and it hasn't worked for them. We don't know.
    - briandear 9y ago
      Issues managing and completing work? How does remote make those issues any different? Do we write code on paper? Does a manager need to physically direct us to our keyboard? When I hear comments like this I roll my eyes because those issues aren’t remote issues, those are incompetent manager issues – issues that don’t get resolved by simply sitting in an office. Management, communication and productivity are challenges regardless of work location. Why do many remote companies “make it work” while others fail? My theory is it has nothing to do with on-site vs remote. It’s a scapegoat used by insecure or incompetent managers who lead mediocre employees they shouldn’t have hired in the first place. If your workers can’t perform in a remote environment, then they aren’t going to suddenly get better by virtue of sharing a ping pong table.
IshKebab 9y ago
Or paid more. Whenever companies say "there's a skills shortage" or "we can't find enough good developers" or whatever, they are missing off the important "... for the price that we would like to pay" part.
- spoonie 9y ago
  How much does Soti pay? How do you know it's bad?
  - DKnoll 9y ago
    https://www.glassdoor.ca/Salary/SOTI-Salaries-E156148.htm https://www.glassdoor.ca/Salary/SOTI-Salaries-E156148.htm
    - Cuuugi 9y ago
      Was just going to reference that, they are not well liked on glassdoor.
      - DKnoll 9y ago
        I don't think most companies are. I will say I tried applying several years ago and during the initial phone interview I was told I would get exactly my salary at my current company and no raise if I came aboard, before any technical interview. After that I was sent an email telling me exactly how to dress for my second interview... I declined. I was later in their office on Hurontario near the 401 for a HackerNest meetup. I was speaking with a manager of theirs and mentioned someone who I knew that worked there, to find out he no longer did and he laughed about this person with a colleague. I love hearing about a Canadian success story but their culture seems a bit off.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- opportune 9y ago
  Exactly. Soti is paying on average $80k/year for their non-senior devs (source:glassdoor). That's $20k/year less than the median starting salary of graduates from my undergrad. Of course, they are in Canada, but still, it's no wonder they're having trouble hiring people. Just pay more for less positions...
meritt 9y ago
Our company has been fully remote for 3 years now and I don't think most programmers are capable of remote work. Poor communication, inconsistent work schedules, spending way too much time down rabbit holes that would have been avoided if we were in the same office, and generally not delivering the desired results on a reasonable timeline. In the past 5 hires, we had one employee who actually was a solid remote worker. I'd love to a) know how to recruit good remote-capable employees and b) how to better manage remotely -- because at this point, we're going to open an office and hire locally. Interstate taxation, necessary corporate filings/fees/forms, and offering healthcare in multiple states also make being fully remote incredibly difficult unless to restrict employees to being "remote" from the states in which you're already established.
- mark212 9y ago
  there are a few hundred people at Wordpress.com and Automattic that would beg to differ. Give a read to "Year Without Pants," it's very interesting and might help your team make the transition.
- mring33621 9y ago
  I don't understand this. I have worked remote and semi-remote for several years at large and small US companies, with internationally distributed teams. Generally, we have run loose SCRUM/agile processes with good results. There is really nowhere to hide. Either the bug is fixed or it's not. The new feature is there, or it's not! You make stories/tickets. You run sprints. You check in code. You see passing or broken builds. You demo to customers or management that serving as proxies for customer interest. There is much imperfection in our processes, but basic visibility is good. The stakeholders can see Jira, Github, Jenkins/Teamcity. The devs cannot hide, so the work gets done.
  - shitgoose 9y ago
    i guess it depends on the project. if business side is not too complex and can easily be translated into jiras and stories, then developers should have a good grip on what needs to be done and why. then remote is fine. but if business requirements, on the other hand, are complex, poorly understood or fluid, then developer will be absolutely lost and will start cranking up patterns instead of solutions. teamcity will be building alright and scrums will roll, but project will be a complete mess heading for a disaster. face to face will not save the day, but to some degree will mitigate lack of communication and understanding of common goal.

StavrosK 9y ago

Don't be silly; you can't trust people to do any work unless you're standing over their shoulder.

chii 9y ago

but then how would the boss micromanage you!?

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
placebo 9y ago
Thank you for a great idea for my next startup - an application to micromanage remote workers. It will be even better than office micromanagement since the boss will have a large screen where all the remote desktops will be visible and under control simultaneously and the boss will be able to assist remote developers get back on track should they ever consider taking any initiative or heaven forbid be creative. It will also make it much easier to spot activities that do not seem to be directly work related. I feel I'm really on to something :-)
- marsRoverDev 9y ago
  This is already a thing, Upwork/odesk automatically screenshot freelancer's desktops and make them visible to the clients: https://support.upwork.com/hc/en-us/articles/211068518-Use-Your-Work-Diary https://support.upwork.com/hc/en-us/articles/211068518-Use-Y...
  - gaius 9y ago
    records the total number of mouse clicks, scroll actions, and keystrokes What amazing metrics they have! /s

internobody 9y ago

Not everybody wants to work remote. Some folks enjoy the social aspects of an office. Those people won't be attracted to this location.

59nadir 9y ago
What I'm saying is that a company that hires remotely very likely won't have issues hiring, because they haven't arbitrarily decided that what they do requires everyone to be in the same office. If you're trying to hire for a place people don't want to work in or if you're having issues with skill levels of new hires, the solution is to widen the net: Not in terms of skill ranges, but in terms of geography. Not everyone wants to work remotely and that's fine. Especially considering that for the vast majority of people, there is someone better than them out there that desperately wants remote work.
- kjs3 9y ago
  The assumption that decisions that disagree with you are "arbitrary" doesn't help your argument.
- unityByFreedom 9y ago
  > a company that hires remotely very likely won't have issues hiring, because they haven't arbitrarily decided that what they do requires everyone to be in the same office. Right, no issues hiring, but maybe some issues managing, communicating effectively, and completing work. You're potentially trading one set of problems for another. Perhaps they've tried a bit of remote and it hasn't worked for them. We don't know.
  - briandear 9y ago
    Issues managing and completing work? How does remote make those issues any different? Do we write code on paper? Does a manager need to physically direct us to our keyboard? When I hear comments like this I roll my eyes because those issues aren’t remote issues, those are incompetent manager issues – issues that don’t get resolved by simply sitting in an office. Management, communication and productivity are challenges regardless of work location. Why do many remote companies “make it work” while others fail? My theory is it has nothing to do with on-site vs remote. It’s a scapegoat used by insecure or incompetent managers who lead mediocre employees they shouldn’t have hired in the first place. If your workers can’t perform in a remote environment, then they aren’t going to suddenly get better by virtue of sharing a ping pong table.

IshKebab 9y ago

Or paid more. Whenever companies say "there's a skills shortage" or "we can't find enough good developers" or whatever, they are missing off the important "... for the price that we would like to pay" part.

spoonie 9y ago
How much does Soti pay? How do you know it's bad?
- DKnoll 9y ago
  https://www.glassdoor.ca/Salary/SOTI-Salaries-E156148.htm https://www.glassdoor.ca/Salary/SOTI-Salaries-E156148.htm
  - Cuuugi 9y ago
    Was just going to reference that, they are not well liked on glassdoor.
    - DKnoll 9y ago
      I don't think most companies are. I will say I tried applying several years ago and during the initial phone interview I was told I would get exactly my salary at my current company and no raise if I came aboard, before any technical interview. After that I was sent an email telling me exactly how to dress for my second interview... I declined. I was later in their office on Hurontario near the 401 for a HackerNest meetup. I was speaking with a manager of theirs and mentioned someone who I knew that worked there, to find out he no longer did and he laughed about this person with a colleague. I love hearing about a Canadian success story but their culture seems a bit off.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
opportune 9y ago
Exactly. Soti is paying on average $80k/year for their non-senior devs (source:glassdoor). That's $20k/year less than the median starting salary of graduates from my undergrad. Of course, they are in Canada, but still, it's no wonder they're having trouble hiring people. Just pay more for less positions...

meritt 9y ago

Our company has been fully remote for 3 years now and I don't think most programmers are capable of remote work. Poor communication, inconsistent work schedules, spending way too much time down rabbit holes that would have been avoided if we were in the same office, and generally not delivering the desired results on a reasonable timeline. In the past 5 hires, we had one employee who actually was a solid remote worker. I'd love to a) know how to recruit good remote-capable employees and b) how to better manage remotely -- because at this point, we're going to open an office and hire locally. Interstate taxation, necessary corporate filings/fees/forms, and offering healthcare in multiple states also make being fully remote incredibly difficult unless to restrict employees to being "remote" from the states in which you're already established.

mark212 9y ago
there are a few hundred people at Wordpress.com and Automattic that would beg to differ. Give a read to "Year Without Pants," it's very interesting and might help your team make the transition.
mring33621 9y ago
I don't understand this. I have worked remote and semi-remote for several years at large and small US companies, with internationally distributed teams. Generally, we have run loose SCRUM/agile processes with good results. There is really nowhere to hide. Either the bug is fixed or it's not. The new feature is there, or it's not! You make stories/tickets. You run sprints. You check in code. You see passing or broken builds. You demo to customers or management that serving as proxies for customer interest. There is much imperfection in our processes, but basic visibility is good. The stakeholders can see Jira, Github, Jenkins/Teamcity. The devs cannot hide, so the work gets done.
- shitgoose 9y ago
  i guess it depends on the project. if business side is not too complex and can easily be translated into jiras and stories, then developers should have a good grip on what needs to be done and why. then remote is fine. but if business requirements, on the other hand, are complex, poorly understood or fluid, then developer will be absolutely lost and will start cranking up patterns instead of solutions. teamcity will be building alright and scrums will roll, but project will be a complete mess heading for a disaster. face to face will not save the day, but to some degree will mitigate lack of communication and understanding of common goal.