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> One problem Mr Rodrigues says the company has faced, is struggling to recruit enough good computer programmers. Well yeah, he's trying to run a software busi

by mabbo 9y ago

> One problem Mr Rodrigues says the company has faced, is struggling to recruit enough good computer programmers. Well yeah, he's trying to run a software business in Mississauga. As a developer who used to commute to the 'Saug every day: very few of us want to work there. No decent food, no after work fun, just suburb hell for miles around. He's competing with the banks and Amazon downtown in Toronto proper. He's also competing with Google Waterloo 30 minutes in the other direction for people not interested in living in the city. And he's going to be competing with them on pay as well as location. Edit: woo, this may be my most controversial comment ever based on the point swings. I welcome counterpoints! Discussion is always good.

DKnoll 9y ago
>No decent food, no after work fun, just suburb hell for miles around. ??? I live in Port Credit (south Mississauga)... I can tell you absolutely that is not the case. Also it would be hard to name a culture that didn't have food here. https://www.insauga.com/ https://www.insauga.com/
- mabbo 9y ago
  Specifically my food problem in Mississauga was that lunch sucked. You had to drive at least five minutes from my office to get anywhere, and then it was just fast food. Maybe go a bit further to streetsville, get something a bit better. It was just corporate mid rises and suburbs everywhere else! In Toronto, I am walking distance from everything after work, plus the subway to get me home. Port Credit may be cool, but it can't compete with that. Also, as you said that's south of Mississauga- again, we're going to have to drive everywhere. That's just not there lifestyle I want, and very few in my office did- which was why we pushed so hard for a downtown office instead.
  - DKnoll 9y ago
    It's the southernmost neighbourhood in Mississauga, not south of it. I live and work (in IT) here. I can walk to several award winning restaurants within a couple minutes from my office at the marina here. Just look on Google Maps, this place is more walkable than most of TO and my rent is <$1000.
    - mabbo 9y ago
      I will not argue: your rent beats Toronto's. Oh God, this housing market.
      - DKnoll 9y ago
        My rent is the exception and not the rule, even here. I feel your pain.
  - pc86 9y ago
    > You had to drive at least five minutes from my office to get anywhere Five whole minutes, my word. Not sure how you survived as long as you did.
    - adrinavarro 9y ago
      I think the issue is with being forced to drive instead of just being able to walk.
    - shitgoose 9y ago
      walk to the car, drive 5 min, find parking. same in reverse. at least 30-40 min wasted. esp during the winter. i hate commuting to downtown toronto, but it is hard to beat the Path, abundance of pubs/restaurants and constantly bumping into people i used to work with (aka stay in the loop). there is no fricking loop in mississauga.
    - cthalupa 9y ago
      If you don't live or work in a walkable area, or that otherwise makes up for this somehow, this won't sound that awful to you. As a native Texan, this sort of thing didn't sound that bad to me in general. But once you work somewhere where a 5 minute WALK will net you two dozen food options, it's a big shift in your quality of life, as far as work lunch goes. It takes me about 5 minutes to walk from my desk to my car. Then another 5-15 minutes to drive for food. Then a minute or two parking and walking to the restaurant - if I'm lucky. If I wanted to go somewhere popular during the lunch rush, or that has shitty parking, maybe that's 5-10 minutes finding a parking spot and walking. It doesn't seem like a huge deal, but it really can be.
- verelo 9y ago
  Depending where you are and the state of the roads at that time, port credit could be an hours (or more) drive away. Some way to spend your lunch break!
  - DKnoll 9y ago
    A bit exaggerated, but you're largely correct. I was more countering that we have no food and no nightlife, although I do live and work here. I understand the argument in SOTIs case because their office is in the middle of nowhere, although there are restaurants very close to it.
- cholantesh 9y ago
  SOTI is up the street from where I used to live. The area is pretty boring: highlights are the Old Britannia Schoolhouse and Highland Farms.
59nadir 9y ago
What a world we could have if companies realized they could sidestep this problem entirely if they hired remote workers.
- StavrosK 9y ago
  Don't be silly; you can't trust people to do any work unless you're standing over their shoulder.
- chii 9y ago
  but then how would the boss micromanage you!?
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - placebo 9y ago
    Thank you for a great idea for my next startup - an application to micromanage remote workers. It will be even better than office micromanagement since the boss will have a large screen where all the remote desktops will be visible and under control simultaneously and the boss will be able to assist remote developers get back on track should they ever consider taking any initiative or heaven forbid be creative. It will also make it much easier to spot activities that do not seem to be directly work related. I feel I'm really on to something :-)
    - marsRoverDev 9y ago
      This is already a thing, Upwork/odesk automatically screenshot freelancer's desktops and make them visible to the clients: https://support.upwork.com/hc/en-us/articles/211068518-Use-Your-Work-Diary https://support.upwork.com/hc/en-us/articles/211068518-Use-Y...
      - gaius 9y ago
        records the total number of mouse clicks, scroll actions, and keystrokes What amazing metrics they have! /s
homerguy69 9y ago
How is Waterloo 30 minutes in the other direction...Also Mississauga has grown and with the transit and rail systems, Toronto to Mississauga is a breeze so you don't have to live in Sauga to work there.
- mabbo 9y ago
  Under an hour, let's say. And the major traffic is all going the opposite direction. More to the point, if I'm willing to work and live in a smaller suburban area, why not just move to Waterloo? His potential list of developers is much smaller because of his location.
a_brawling_boo 9y ago
Weird, there are a bunch of software companies/jobs in the northern Atlanta suburbs. I've spent time in Oakville and Burlington and they are a lot like the suburbs here, can't speak for Mississauga. I feel like there is a cultural difference: here people will think nothing of driving 45 or 60 minutes across the city not just for commuting but for restaurants, entertainment, or visiting friends, but a similar drive there, Toronto to Hamilton for instance, is a major trip!
- xapata 9y ago
  Counter-example: after GaTech, I refused any job offer outside biking distance of midtown.
- jdc0589 9y ago
  > Weird, there are a bunch of software companies/jobs in the northern Atlanta suburbs. that definitely makes sense; the only reason anything aside from housing exists in the Altanta suburbs is because of how long it takes to get anywhere more than a couple miles from where you live. Our company has an office in the midtown area, and the work schedule for a large part of the office is: 8:30 - 9:30 = work from home, fuck traffic; 9:30 - 10:00 = drive to office; 10:00 - 3:30 work; 3:30 - 4 = drive home, fuck traffic; 4 - 5:30 = work. I can't imaging working anywhere in Atlanta that requires you to have your ass in the office at 8. I've heard people in Atl joke about how they used to be friends with someone that moved 10 miles away, and they can't hang out anymore cause it legitimately takes too long to get there.
  - a_brawling_boo 9y ago
    That is my schedule when I have to go in (thankfully only a few times a month), but usually the 10:00-3:30 becomes a 10:00-6:30 or 7. I guess the friend thing kind of depends on which direction they moved in relation to traffic.
  - chrshawkes 9y ago
    Atlanta traffic has nothing on DC.
MichaelGG 9y ago
Seems like any company in Ontario should have a really easy time hiring just by offering competitive salaries. They wanna offer $100K CAD and think that's high, come on. Bump that up to 130K (that's only 100K USD) and perhaps some people would be interested. I met someone else complaining about this, that they hired everyone they could and were desperate. Their salaries were around $60K. Don't see how anyone can be scratching their heads over that.
- TheCowboy 9y ago
  It's become cliche for companies to complain about a talent shortage while wage statistics don't rise in response. I've heard restaurant owners complain about not being able to attract and retain quality wait staff while they pay the tipped minimum wage (less than $3 per hour). This attitude has to change. If a company can make significantly more money by hiring someone, then they should be aggressively increasing wages to signal to the market that they are serious. It's basically refusing to participate in the free market, or a complete lack of understanding of how markets work. Business managers frequently act like they understand economics better than economists yet this attitude should telegraph a level of cluelessness that makes them unfit to manage a hiring process. Everyone wants to pay less and get more talent. If you can't afford to pay more then compete on other aspects---allow remote work, more flex-time, and so on. Try something different in your interviews. Offer apprenticeships. Sometimes it's not even a pure talent shortage that force increasing wages. In San Francisco the housing shortage and lack of support for new construction wipes out a lot of gains that come with higher salaries.
  - mabbo 9y ago
    > In San Francisco the housing shortage and lack of support for new construction wipes out a lot of gains that come with higher salaries. You can even see that problem get worse as people leave. Fantastic dev I worked with moved from Seattle back to India. She said that yes, she made more money in Seattle, but cost of living was so low in Bangalore that she effectively made a lot more money there. Coupled with her family being closer, it made perfect sense.
TY 9y ago
The article mentions that they hired programmers from Ukraine and helped them to relocate to Canada with their families. I happen to know one of those programmers and he's been with the firm for 10 years and seems to be quite happy. Mississauga is no better or worse than any other suburb. The fact that you have to drive to get food, forces you to plan better and actually bring food into the office instead of eating take out all the time. In a way, that's a plus :-) This perception probably depends on what life stage you are in: if you are single or married no children then "no after work fun" and "suburb hell" are minuses. Once you are "married with children" ;-) then those things stop being important as you have other priorities to rush to.
spoonie 9y ago
What salary does Soti offer? Your points about the office location are valid, but do you know how much they are paying their developers? You make it seem like they are paying less than Google/Amazon. But how much less? Would your comments be the same if they were in fact paying just as much as Google? I think it's productive to talk in numbers, or else Canadians will be perpetually wondering if they are paid below market or not.
endorphone 9y ago
"He's competing with the banks" Canadian banks are horrid employers for software devs. I worked for RBC FG after having my first child -- e.g. time to get serious, etc -- and it was absolutely soul crushing. My pay was out of their bands so every year was a new middle manager making me and everyone else justify it, etc. They're always trying to replace you with either external solutions, or outsourcing. Peers at other banks have all the same impressions. The Waterloo thing is just weird. No, not really. And for what it's worth, of the programmers I've worked with, having spent years working downtown for both RBC and Bell, and then a number of smaller firms all through the GTA, the overwhelming majority live West of town in the "suburban hell". Increasingly pushing even further to Oakville and Burlington. Most prioritize positions to the West of downtown. And there is good food everywhere in the area.
- micael_dias 9y ago
  Don't mean to bash you but you want to use "i.e." there.
- thephyber 9y ago
  > They're always trying to replace you with either external solutions, or outsourcing. Peers at other banks have all the same impressions. This sounds like cutthroat capitalism to me. It's what happens to every industry when the margins are thin. I suspect it will come to the wider tech sector sooner or later when innovation slows and VC capital dries up. Then again, maybe some large corps will figure out that company culture, mental health, incentives, innovation, and creativity can be boosted by giving people some additional sense of job security.
  - frandroid 9y ago
    The margins in Canadian telcos and banks are the opposite of thin...
0x4f3759df 9y ago
Mississauga: Density Without Urbanism https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3iliEa0rwc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3iliEa0rwc
LordKano 9y ago
It's a balancing act, to be sure. I'm sure all of the issues you raised would be serious impediments to hiring 20-somethings but many of us have only improved our programming prowess with age. I'm in my 40s, I don't care about after work fun. I HATE that I have to commute into the city every day. I would LOVE a 15 minute suburban commute to work. If the pay/benefits are right the only big concern would be stability.
valuearb 9y ago
Well from the photo it appears he has a shitty open floor plan work environment too, that can't be helping.
jtwebman 9y ago
When a company says, "we can't find enough good developers." To me that is a huge red flag and makes me look for a few things. One it might say they have so much tech debt they need an army of programmers to maintain it. willing to bet good programmers stiff this out quick. Second they are doing recruiting all wrong and/or have some senior guy that asks some dumb riddles and if people get it wrong or mess under stress they don't offer a job to them. I have been to so many job interviews like this in my career, where they have a programmer on staff with a huge ego and it shows in the interview. I never even entrain an offer if I meet anyone like this at all. Third, which was cover heavily in comments here is salary and benefits. It isn't always salary either. I have take less money for more vacation time and other great benefits. I like to look at the big picture, not just the salary, as long as the total package is within the average. Last and I think the most important is company culture. I think you can have all the others correct but if this isn't working great you will just keep losing people. It only takes one bad apple at the company for this to drive people away. This is the hardest to see and fix, especially if it starts from the top management.

by mabbo 9y ago

DKnoll 9y ago

>No decent food, no after work fun, just suburb hell for miles around. ??? I live in Port Credit (south Mississauga)... I can tell you absolutely that is not the case. Also it would be hard to name a culture that didn't have food here. https://www.insauga.com/ https://www.insauga.com/

mabbo 9y ago
Specifically my food problem in Mississauga was that lunch sucked. You had to drive at least five minutes from my office to get anywhere, and then it was just fast food. Maybe go a bit further to streetsville, get something a bit better. It was just corporate mid rises and suburbs everywhere else! In Toronto, I am walking distance from everything after work, plus the subway to get me home. Port Credit may be cool, but it can't compete with that. Also, as you said that's south of Mississauga- again, we're going to have to drive everywhere. That's just not there lifestyle I want, and very few in my office did- which was why we pushed so hard for a downtown office instead.
- DKnoll 9y ago
  It's the southernmost neighbourhood in Mississauga, not south of it. I live and work (in IT) here. I can walk to several award winning restaurants within a couple minutes from my office at the marina here. Just look on Google Maps, this place is more walkable than most of TO and my rent is <$1000.
  - mabbo 9y ago
    I will not argue: your rent beats Toronto's. Oh God, this housing market.
    - DKnoll 9y ago
      My rent is the exception and not the rule, even here. I feel your pain.
- pc86 9y ago
  > You had to drive at least five minutes from my office to get anywhere Five whole minutes, my word. Not sure how you survived as long as you did.
  - adrinavarro 9y ago
    I think the issue is with being forced to drive instead of just being able to walk.
  - shitgoose 9y ago
    walk to the car, drive 5 min, find parking. same in reverse. at least 30-40 min wasted. esp during the winter. i hate commuting to downtown toronto, but it is hard to beat the Path, abundance of pubs/restaurants and constantly bumping into people i used to work with (aka stay in the loop). there is no fricking loop in mississauga.
  - cthalupa 9y ago
    If you don't live or work in a walkable area, or that otherwise makes up for this somehow, this won't sound that awful to you. As a native Texan, this sort of thing didn't sound that bad to me in general. But once you work somewhere where a 5 minute WALK will net you two dozen food options, it's a big shift in your quality of life, as far as work lunch goes. It takes me about 5 minutes to walk from my desk to my car. Then another 5-15 minutes to drive for food. Then a minute or two parking and walking to the restaurant - if I'm lucky. If I wanted to go somewhere popular during the lunch rush, or that has shitty parking, maybe that's 5-10 minutes finding a parking spot and walking. It doesn't seem like a huge deal, but it really can be.
verelo 9y ago
Depending where you are and the state of the roads at that time, port credit could be an hours (or more) drive away. Some way to spend your lunch break!
- DKnoll 9y ago
  A bit exaggerated, but you're largely correct. I was more countering that we have no food and no nightlife, although I do live and work here. I understand the argument in SOTIs case because their office is in the middle of nowhere, although there are restaurants very close to it.
cholantesh 9y ago
SOTI is up the street from where I used to live. The area is pretty boring: highlights are the Old Britannia Schoolhouse and Highland Farms.

59nadir 9y ago

What a world we could have if companies realized they could sidestep this problem entirely if they hired remote workers.

StavrosK 9y ago
Don't be silly; you can't trust people to do any work unless you're standing over their shoulder.
chii 9y ago
but then how would the boss micromanage you!?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- placebo 9y ago
  Thank you for a great idea for my next startup - an application to micromanage remote workers. It will be even better than office micromanagement since the boss will have a large screen where all the remote desktops will be visible and under control simultaneously and the boss will be able to assist remote developers get back on track should they ever consider taking any initiative or heaven forbid be creative. It will also make it much easier to spot activities that do not seem to be directly work related. I feel I'm really on to something :-)
  - marsRoverDev 9y ago
    This is already a thing, Upwork/odesk automatically screenshot freelancer's desktops and make them visible to the clients: https://support.upwork.com/hc/en-us/articles/211068518-Use-Your-Work-Diary https://support.upwork.com/hc/en-us/articles/211068518-Use-Y...
    - gaius 9y ago
      records the total number of mouse clicks, scroll actions, and keystrokes What amazing metrics they have! /s

homerguy69 9y ago

How is Waterloo 30 minutes in the other direction...Also Mississauga has grown and with the transit and rail systems, Toronto to Mississauga is a breeze so you don't have to live in Sauga to work there.

mabbo 9y ago
Under an hour, let's say. And the major traffic is all going the opposite direction. More to the point, if I'm willing to work and live in a smaller suburban area, why not just move to Waterloo? His potential list of developers is much smaller because of his location.

a_brawling_boo 9y ago

Weird, there are a bunch of software companies/jobs in the northern Atlanta suburbs. I've spent time in Oakville and Burlington and they are a lot like the suburbs here, can't speak for Mississauga. I feel like there is a cultural difference: here people will think nothing of driving 45 or 60 minutes across the city not just for commuting but for restaurants, entertainment, or visiting friends, but a similar drive there, Toronto to Hamilton for instance, is a major trip!

xapata 9y ago
Counter-example: after GaTech, I refused any job offer outside biking distance of midtown.
jdc0589 9y ago
> Weird, there are a bunch of software companies/jobs in the northern Atlanta suburbs. that definitely makes sense; the only reason anything aside from housing exists in the Altanta suburbs is because of how long it takes to get anywhere more than a couple miles from where you live. Our company has an office in the midtown area, and the work schedule for a large part of the office is: 8:30 - 9:30 = work from home, fuck traffic; 9:30 - 10:00 = drive to office; 10:00 - 3:30 work; 3:30 - 4 = drive home, fuck traffic; 4 - 5:30 = work. I can't imaging working anywhere in Atlanta that requires you to have your ass in the office at 8. I've heard people in Atl joke about how they used to be friends with someone that moved 10 miles away, and they can't hang out anymore cause it legitimately takes too long to get there.
- a_brawling_boo 9y ago
  That is my schedule when I have to go in (thankfully only a few times a month), but usually the 10:00-3:30 becomes a 10:00-6:30 or 7. I guess the friend thing kind of depends on which direction they moved in relation to traffic.
- chrshawkes 9y ago
  Atlanta traffic has nothing on DC.

MichaelGG 9y ago

Seems like any company in Ontario should have a really easy time hiring just by offering competitive salaries. They wanna offer $100K CAD and think that's high, come on. Bump that up to 130K (that's only 100K USD) and perhaps some people would be interested. I met someone else complaining about this, that they hired everyone they could and were desperate. Their salaries were around $60K. Don't see how anyone can be scratching their heads over that.

TheCowboy 9y ago
It's become cliche for companies to complain about a talent shortage while wage statistics don't rise in response. I've heard restaurant owners complain about not being able to attract and retain quality wait staff while they pay the tipped minimum wage (less than $3 per hour). This attitude has to change. If a company can make significantly more money by hiring someone, then they should be aggressively increasing wages to signal to the market that they are serious. It's basically refusing to participate in the free market, or a complete lack of understanding of how markets work. Business managers frequently act like they understand economics better than economists yet this attitude should telegraph a level of cluelessness that makes them unfit to manage a hiring process. Everyone wants to pay less and get more talent. If you can't afford to pay more then compete on other aspects---allow remote work, more flex-time, and so on. Try something different in your interviews. Offer apprenticeships. Sometimes it's not even a pure talent shortage that force increasing wages. In San Francisco the housing shortage and lack of support for new construction wipes out a lot of gains that come with higher salaries.
- mabbo 9y ago
  > In San Francisco the housing shortage and lack of support for new construction wipes out a lot of gains that come with higher salaries. You can even see that problem get worse as people leave. Fantastic dev I worked with moved from Seattle back to India. She said that yes, she made more money in Seattle, but cost of living was so low in Bangalore that she effectively made a lot more money there. Coupled with her family being closer, it made perfect sense.

TY 9y ago

The article mentions that they hired programmers from Ukraine and helped them to relocate to Canada with their families. I happen to know one of those programmers and he's been with the firm for 10 years and seems to be quite happy. Mississauga is no better or worse than any other suburb. The fact that you have to drive to get food, forces you to plan better and actually bring food into the office instead of eating take out all the time. In a way, that's a plus :-) This perception probably depends on what life stage you are in: if you are single or married no children then "no after work fun" and "suburb hell" are minuses. Once you are "married with children" ;-) then those things stop being important as you have other priorities to rush to.

spoonie 9y ago

What salary does Soti offer? Your points about the office location are valid, but do you know how much they are paying their developers? You make it seem like they are paying less than Google/Amazon. But how much less? Would your comments be the same if they were in fact paying just as much as Google? I think it's productive to talk in numbers, or else Canadians will be perpetually wondering if they are paid below market or not.

endorphone 9y ago

"He's competing with the banks" Canadian banks are horrid employers for software devs. I worked for RBC FG after having my first child -- e.g. time to get serious, etc -- and it was absolutely soul crushing. My pay was out of their bands so every year was a new middle manager making me and everyone else justify it, etc. They're always trying to replace you with either external solutions, or outsourcing. Peers at other banks have all the same impressions. The Waterloo thing is just weird. No, not really. And for what it's worth, of the programmers I've worked with, having spent years working downtown for both RBC and Bell, and then a number of smaller firms all through the GTA, the overwhelming majority live West of town in the "suburban hell". Increasingly pushing even further to Oakville and Burlington. Most prioritize positions to the West of downtown. And there is good food everywhere in the area.

micael_dias 9y ago
Don't mean to bash you but you want to use "i.e." there.
thephyber 9y ago
> They're always trying to replace you with either external solutions, or outsourcing. Peers at other banks have all the same impressions. This sounds like cutthroat capitalism to me. It's what happens to every industry when the margins are thin. I suspect it will come to the wider tech sector sooner or later when innovation slows and VC capital dries up. Then again, maybe some large corps will figure out that company culture, mental health, incentives, innovation, and creativity can be boosted by giving people some additional sense of job security.
- frandroid 9y ago
  The margins in Canadian telcos and banks are the opposite of thin...

0x4f3759df 9y ago

Mississauga: Density Without Urbanism https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3iliEa0rwc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3iliEa0rwc

LordKano 9y ago

It's a balancing act, to be sure. I'm sure all of the issues you raised would be serious impediments to hiring 20-somethings but many of us have only improved our programming prowess with age. I'm in my 40s, I don't care about after work fun. I HATE that I have to commute into the city every day. I would LOVE a 15 minute suburban commute to work. If the pay/benefits are right the only big concern would be stability.

valuearb 9y ago

Well from the photo it appears he has a shitty open floor plan work environment too, that can't be helping.

jtwebman 9y ago

When a company says, "we can't find enough good developers." To me that is a huge red flag and makes me look for a few things. One it might say they have so much tech debt they need an army of programmers to maintain it. willing to bet good programmers stiff this out quick. Second they are doing recruiting all wrong and/or have some senior guy that asks some dumb riddles and if people get it wrong or mess under stress they don't offer a job to them. I have been to so many job interviews like this in my career, where they have a programmer on staff with a huge ego and it shows in the interview. I never even entrain an offer if I meet anyone like this at all. Third, which was cover heavily in comments here is salary and benefits. It isn't always salary either. I have take less money for more vacation time and other great benefits. I like to look at the big picture, not just the salary, as long as the total package is within the average. Last and I think the most important is company culture. I think you can have all the others correct but if this isn't working great you will just keep losing people. It only takes one bad apple at the company for this to drive people away. This is the hardest to see and fix, especially if it starts from the top management.