26 ms·

Indian IT, “You're Fired”

145 points by mohan_ 9y ago

jussij 9y ago
From the page: At the meeting, Mr. Sikka also described how the company “released 11,000 jobs due to automation.” Many small shareholders appealed to the board to consider the “human cost” of layoffs in the software sector. That quote made me chuckle, since I have witnessed first hand the IT industry in the West face massive job cuts through Out Sourcing and that has been going on for decades now. Now I don't blame Out Sourcing per say, as governments let that happen, but it is a bit funny when the Out Sourcing gets Out Sourced.
- aNoob7000 9y ago
  I agree with your comment. The author seems taken back by the callousness of the cuts, but this is nothing new in the United States or even in other western countries. I think Indian IT firms have gotten a free ride for many years using labor arbitrage. Now that there's a whiff of protectionism in the air from the United States and cloud computing is surging things aren't so easy anymore.
  - HenryTheHorse 9y ago
    > I think Indian IT firms have gotten a free ride for many years using labor arbitrage. Got it. So Apple building the phone in China or Cisco building routers in China is not labor arbitrage.
    - rdl 9y ago
      That was labor and environmental and capital control arbitrage, plus subsidy from the government for utilities. (Now there is legitimate supply chain advantage in the area while other advantages are vanishing, though.)
    - toxican 9y ago
      Because that's what they said or implied at all.
    - bogomipz 9y ago
      No, they are all labor arbitrage. Manufacturing labor arbitrage is just a little more sticky since China has the production facilities.
  - LordKano 9y ago
    How many storied have we heard, or lived through, of people being forced to train their Indian replacements in order to receive severance?
    - nonamechicken 9y ago
      One can forego severance in the worst case. But in India, the companies won't give us service certificate if we don't dance to their tunes. This certificate is required for the next job.
      - shagie 9y ago
        While it does little good for me to say it, that is something that probably needs to change. Failure to do this could lead to some skewing of labor markets. It is in the same category as taking the passport of a foreign worker and indentured servitude. Workplace stack exchange has a few stories of these letters: https://workplace.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/relieving-letter https://workplace.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/relievi...
      - mfoy_ 9y ago
        To elaborate on your point, and to seek a little clarity on what's going on here... The severance deal thing is kind of like a bonus for helping make the transition easy... you can forego the bonus and "stick it" to your employer, but it won't necessarily affect your future employment opportunities. I assume the certificate thing is like a proof of employment? So HR saying "Play by our rules or we'll do everything in our power to make your life difficult" is coercive and should be illegal if it isn't already.
        mfoy_ 9y ago
        More reading if you're thinking "what on Earth is a relieving letter?": https://workplace.stackexchange.com/questions/20945/what-is-a-relieving-letter-what-are-the-consequences-of-not-having-one https://workplace.stackexchange.com/questions/20945/what-is-...
      - solarengineer 9y ago
  - nonamechicken 9y ago
    These jobs would have been automated regardless of whether it was in India or US.
    - jussij 9y ago
      The irony is the argument, which asks for the human damage is considered when considering the fate of the workforce. In reality, as was the case in the past and will continue into the future, the cheap workforce will always be replaced with something that is cheaper.
- eleitl 9y ago
  It is interesting that he mentions Western protectionism. Those of us in the trenches know that oursourcing rarely works in practice but for that part of the management that is in charge of the outsourcing program, after moving on to greener pa$tures. His successor usually receives the blame for later failures.
  - syshum 9y ago
    >> but for that part of the management that is in charge of the outsourcing program, after moving on to greener pa$tures. But that is outsourcing "working". that is the intended goal of those managers, to aid themselves not the company not the employees but personal advancement
- perseusprime11 9y ago
  A lot of jobs were meant to be automated. Jobs (actually the work itself and the tasks invilved) generally go through phases. Phase 1 is to find cheaper ways to do the same thing and Phase 2 is automate that thing.
binaryapparatus 9y ago
Requires login or wrong URL? Is there alternative URL? Doesn't work for me.
- jordigh 9y ago
  Same problem for me. I don't know why LinkedIn shows me login pages too. Someone else fetched the story for me: http://www.lick.moe/paste/2f6bbfa63965f2c539e4436a028cf90d http://www.lick.moe/paste/2f6bbfa63965f2c539e4436a028cf90d
code4tee 9y ago
The Indian IT situation has reached somewhat of a breaking point, hence the current situation unfolding. The real low level stuff is now being increasingly automated thus eliminating the need for cheap labor to do such tasks. At the same time the Indian firms never quite managed to broadly move up the value chain into more innovative and cutting edge areas, which is still very much the realm of local offices of their western customers. As a result there's an increasing oversupply of cheap but not all that good IT labor now flooding the market. Fair or not there's also an increasingly negitive stigma in the west over Indian IT shops. Between growing domestic protectionism and the stereotypical "Indian help desk experience" that became the poster child for bad management decisions, I'm seeing a lot of firms bring even some of the lower level work back onshore--abeit to lower cost regions in their country (think Nebraska call centers now).
- ChrisBland 9y ago
  I'm seeing a move to eastern Europe from India for support level work. The time zone and language barriers are much easier there than India as well as the cost structures are inline generally.
  - mdekkers 9y ago
    Also culture. Seriously don't underestimate culture. In Eastern Europe/Russia "no" means "no" (and is often followed with "why are you asking me to dumb things" or "are you stupid?". In India, they have 200 different ways of saying "yes", with only a few of them actually meaning something along the lines of getting the things you need done actually done. This isn't a slight, it is simply culture. There are many cultures where saying "no" is rude or offensive. Unfortunately, this is very difficult to translate remotely, and requires a long time of cultural assimilation. I manage a lot of "offshore" staff, and have done for about 10 years now. I'll have the Eastern Europeans/Russians any time, also because frequently the outright or muttered "are you stupid?" is followed by a "here is how you should do this", which many times turns out to be a good way doing what I want done. My team can call me stupid as much as they like, if it results in a better product/service.
- exelius 9y ago
nailer 9y ago
As someone who worked for a team at IBM where we were forced to train our replacements in India, it seems odd that anyone in outsourcing would be surprised when those roles are further reduced by automation with little regard for the wellbeing of employees.
- LordKano 9y ago
  Stories like yours were my first thought when I saw this.
- fellellor 9y ago
  I don't know if this is your intention, but it is petty to blame someone, who is seeking legal employment, of conspiring to take away your jobs. The decision to use labor arbitrage was taken by managements in developed economies. The workers didn't position themselves in a way that created the arbitrage. It's silly, to say the least, when your reaction is "what did you expect would happen, when you decided to steal american/british/whatever jobs". This is just the way the world is right now. The Indian IT labor market is only just catching up to the global reality.
  - tempForaReply13 9y ago
    Are you sure you're replying to the right comment? Or was the thread poster's comment edited? Your comment seems to add a little context that isn't there.
    - nailer 9y ago
      The post was not edited.
    - fellellor 9y ago
      Many young people who get into IT here don't come in their first day thinking of the big picture, ie this is an outsourced position. For them it's just a job. So it's not odd for them to think their job has been further reduced. Though it may be the logical thing to think for someone who has all the context. Also, English not being my native language, I had trouble understanding the tone of OP's comment.
planetjones 9y ago
I don't agree with a lot of what Western companies have done regarding sending IT work to India en masse. However, there is a real human cost now of the lay offs. I believe many Indians have taken out bank loans to buy property and there is no safety net in place for employees who are sacked with no notice. So they are at risk of losing their home and the health benefits (for the whole family I believe) is tied to the employer. Overall a very sad situation where those outsourcing the work by the bucketload only looked at cost 'savings' at a point in time - never the social impact of their decisions.
- PenguinCoder 9y ago
  That's no difference from the US employees who have faced layoff or their jobs being outsourced.
  - nonamechicken 9y ago
    But don't you have unemployment benefits and social security? In India, there is nothing.
    - Clubber 9y ago
      It's pretty paltry in the US. You can't take social security until 65 (I think it's 67 now). You get unemployment but it's administered at the state level and in most states it caps out at under $800 a month, but it's been a while. A moderate mortgage is twice that. Also, we get our health benefits from companies and not the government, so as soon as you are laid off, all your health benefits are no longer paid by the company. You can pay for it yourself, but with a family, it's easily over $1000 a month with even meager health insurance. Welfare is hugely capped as are food stamps. You can only be on them for so long and it's such a social stigma in the US, most newly fired people don't even consider it. On top of that, US companies don't like hiring people who have been laid off. They think something along the lines of "well if they got laid off there, there must be a reason." It's ironic because layoffs are generally the fault of the leadership, yet the workforce takes the blame. Corporate leadership likes to think they are there for a reason too and therefore infallible. I never thought I'd be playing the, "who has the worse government." between the US and India. Honestly I thought India would be better at social protections than the US is, simply because every modern country is better than the US is. All that said, I'm sorry to hear India is going through this. It really sucks. We have the highest percentage of people who gave up looking for work than we've had for a long time (if ever). It will taint your workforce for years to come. The US still hasn't gotten over it and it's been going on full force for 20+ years now.
mabbo 9y ago
I've never understood the ways that modern companies handle layoffs- call people into a meeting room one by one, tell them they're being let go, then escort them out of the building. It's not just that it's cold, but it builds a huge cloud of oppression for everyone else. I just watched this happen to a friend, and the guy who was sitting next to him is now saying "I could be next, better start talking to recruiters". Do the companies think we're all going to cut contact with the friend and valued coworker? Of course not, we're going to be buying them a beer in a couple hours. I don't know what a better way would be, but I'd sure like to see some innovation in that space. Something less cold, something more human.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- kemiller2002 9y ago
  There are some valid reasons for it. It's sad the way that it happens, but I've been there on occasion where they didn't do that. One stats guy decided he was angry that it happened . . . . he started deleting all the loss curve data we needed off of the network. There was a hurry to stop him which resulted in the network staff having to unplug all the cables from the routers. Hours of having to put the cable back in and who know how much work was lost.
  - pc86 9y ago
    No amount of anger justifies that kind of behavior. If that's not criminal, it should be.
    - jerf 9y ago
      It is. If it ever crosses (generic-you) your mind to do that, don't. The revenge is very unlikely to be worth the very significant legal risk you are incurring. Stick to tradition and bad-mouth them with friends at a bar.
      - skocznymroczny 9y ago
golemotron 9y ago
The pathology behind the hypocrisy is the obsession with values we see in corporations today. Let's be clear: work is something we do to provide for ourselves. It is a contract. That contract should not encompass a prescribed belief system, and that is exactly what 'values' are. In the past 30 years we've turned many work environments into quasi-religions where it is expected that employees adhere to particular sets of values or at least signal that they do. Doing your job well should be enough.
- hyeonwho2 9y ago
  Organizations of people are defined by shared values and shared goals. Throw out the values and you throw out the bases for civil communication and conflict resolution within the organization.
  - golemotron 9y ago
    That's one definition of an organization. Can you think of others?
  - Asooka 9y ago
    I have never seen an organization subscribe to any set of values other than "do what will make the most profit". The only goal is to increase profit. This works out pretty well, because it pits my desire for profit versus yours, and encourages socially beneficial policies, because too-greedy profit seeking destroys further chances of profit. We do not have shared goals, we have the opposing goal of maximising profit in a largely zero-sum game. However, due to how the system is set up, we can collaborate and increase both our profits more than what we can do each on our own. I don't see how anything else can be a working system. Everything else can be gamed by semantic manoeuvring from the side of the profit-seekers. The only way to make sure a given set of values are followed is to make them the most profitable course of action, ensuring via evolutionary mechanisms that only the ones abiding those values survive.
- cat199 9y ago
  > Doing your job well should be enough. Define 'well' without some sense of 'values', and I might start to believe what you think here.. Otherwise I'm inclined to suspect your critique and resistance might simply be some sort of transferrence of wanting to maintain the dominant own anglo/protestant 'congregational personal piety' values in US culture to the more intrinsically communitarian sense required in this context - (assuming you are from US) e.g. the philosophy of "I can believe what I believe and you can believe what you believe, I can associate or not associate with others who beleive the same thing, there is no 'correct' way, all things are valid so long as they are 'good', although I don't define 'good', because human nature is naturally good", etc, which is itself an intrinsic and communal set of 'values' embedded within the US culture that is directly traceable to the english/low-countries protestant reformation in combination with the values of enlightenment philosophy.. Agreed some companies get carried away with values lip-service without actually following through though, and, if I'm correct, perhaps this common mode should be the default.. but best to be aware of hidden bias..
TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
Many comments here are laughing about the irony of the outsourced labor becoming irrelevant, but it should kind of be worrying. Organizations are lowering the number of jobs to the point that only the most skilled and experienced workers get jobs. If there are no lower level positions for people to take on, how will the masses work their way up and improve? How can our local and global economies improve for everyone when fewer and fewer people can get good jobs? This goes for every country, not just India or America. If an economy improves on paper yet the majority of people see a decline in quality of life, what kind of destabilizing effects will that have on the area?
- shagie 9y ago
  I don't see that. What I do see is a recognition that only in specific cases with well defined product boundaries does outsourcing development work reasonably. On the other hand we see many companies recognizing that telecommuting and remote work, especially with things that have no end date (keep the servers running, fix the bugs, add these new features) have hidden costs. Those costs are often exasperated by time zone differences. In areas where I have worked for the past decade, outsourcing is not looked fondly on because of the recognition that it means a loss of institutional knowledge and unending support costs. There are many entry level positions open, just you need to be able to be in the chair.
  - TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
    > There are many entry level positions open, just you need to be able to be in the chair. This statement proves my point exactly. Either you need to be skilled enough to have the leverage to work remotely, or you need to be lucky enough to live in one of the few cities that happen to be growing economically at the moment. When economic growth and opportunity for the unskilled is concentrated to such a small portion of the planet and country, the rest of us suffer for it. It's a continued assault on the middle class of most of the world, and has profound destabilizing effects on those areas affected by these trends.
    - shagie 9y ago
teyc 9y ago
There is a silver lining for Indian IT in all this. Indiscriminate firing to meet quota is a forcing function for indigenous software companies to grow and thrive. Will there be enough work for all of them? Maybe not. Will it raise the quality bar for those who wish to persist in IT? Most certainly yes. This is not the end.
- nonamechicken 9y ago
  There is already insane competition for government and bank jobs (since these jobs are more or less guaranteed for life). I know so many people who did their bachelors in engineering degrees writing bank exams. These type of news will make Indian IT even less attractive. Layoffs in IT sector lead to a dip in popularity of software engineers in marriage market: http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/ites/layoffs-in-it-sector-lead-to-a-dip-in-popularity-of-software-engineers-in-marriage-market/articleshow/59497476.cms http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/ites/layoffs-in-it-...
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
navinsylvester 9y ago
Pretty unfortunate to see lot of comments with an undertone like Indian IT workers deserved this situation. It's not just a problem which can plague Indian workers alone. Lets focus on what can be done to mitigate this issue. #1 Firing is an inevitable process but it should be a transparent process and employees should be treated with dignity. Firing an employee for cost cut shouldn't be any lesser than 30 days notice period. #2 IT service industry costing method is flawed. Head count is inflated to increase project cost. Need to adopt a better costing model. #3 Any form of automation which would result in job cut should be a board decision and not by the lower rung. The team which will get affected by the decision should be informed so they can be well prepared. Jobs are getting fewer since we are optimizing and automating(don't forget AI) - all good but this shouldn't be at the cost of sustainability.
- tempForaReply13 9y ago
  You aren't going to get a lot of support from the West. We've been dealing with this kind of thing for years, because of labour arbitrage. Asking for help, advice, or for us to join you in some kind of organization now that it's affecting you is... kind of funny actually... But, in all honesty, we'll be training you to train the machine models that will replace all of us eventually, so, maybe it's time for all of us to suck it up and get along.
nonamechicken 9y ago
I personally don't have any issue in Indian companies firing people at will. But they don't give employees the same freedom. All these IT companies have a 2-3 months notice period. This makes it difficult to look for another job. If they want to fire at will, I should be able to walk out at will as well. But if I do that, I will not get my resignation letter and service certificate (I am not worried about the final paycheck left overs). And I need these papers if I have to get another job.
- hyeonwho2 9y ago
  Sorry, but if you were already offered the next job, does the next employer really care about a severance certificate? Why is a severance certificate important in India?
  - gautamdivgi 9y ago
    I'm not sure it really is - but it could be. I think it depends on the hidebound bureaucracy of the company you're applying to. It's been a while since I've worked in India (close to 20 years now). So things have most likely changed massively. When I was there I've known of folks who just quit and folks who gave a decent notice. Those that stayed the notice period got a severance certificate. Those that just quit didn't get one. I don't believe it impacted careers much. That time the notice period was 1 month, not ideal like the US 15-day notice but not too bad either (1 month was the pay period). When I left I negotiated the notice period down to 3 weeks. 2 to 3 months notice is oppressive.
edraferi 9y ago
> Saying “You're Fired!” in a nicer tone is not likely “preserve the dignity of the individual.” The guy on the receiving end is still going to get the same message: he’s out of a job and has bills to pay. I disagree. Sometimes layoffs are unavoidable, but you can fire someone with dignity. I think both tone and substance matter here. For tone, management should be civil, polite and respectful. Acknowledge the employee's contributions to date, explain the larger context for the layoffs, express regret that they are leaving the team, and wish them well. Just because you're forced to deliver bad news doesn't mean you have to be brusque and vindictive. You give the departing employee dignity by treating them like team member you will miss rather than a minor, expensive annoyance. Even kind words are cheap. Management should take substantive steps to ease the employee's transition out of the company. Earlier notice (weeks vs hours), severance pay, job search assistance, referrals, etc. all show the employee that the current employer does care about their personal well-being even as they depart the company.
- pbhjpbhj 9y ago
  Would you want management to do that if it's not sincere? What if your contribution has been poor or damaging. I think we agree broadly FWIW.
donquichotte 9y ago
"Indian software services companies are under tremendous pressure to continue to show growth in a slowing global market that is also experiencing increased protectionism in the west." Maybe the managers in the west who made the decision to lay off entire IT departments and replace them by Indian companies started realizing that with the cost of the impedance mismatch in language and culture between a company and its IT deparment, off-shoring is more expensive than running a domestic IT department.
- zmakr 9y ago
  Its not the managers who made the decision. Its the shareholders, ultimately its capitalism that made this decision.
  - DrScump 9y ago
    Shareholders, individually or collectively, don't make such decisions... but they later collectively judge those who did. (Fairly or unfairly)
- svens_ 9y ago
  That would be a best case scenario and I doubt that's what's happening. And instead of bringing those services back locally, nearshoring will probably be considered first.
zmakr 9y ago
This is a blessing in disguise. A majority of the Indian IT workers were focused on working for outsourcing companies. Recently, I have seen the startup scene gaining momentum in India. This will stop India's brain drain as well bring in more revenues to the country directly.
OliverJones 9y ago
In Indian polity, withholding relieving letters is brutal. It makes it very hard for the laid-off person to get another job: one must present a relieving letter to be hired elsewhere. Courts aren't a useful remedy for a worker with a family to feed: too slow and expensive.
- danmaz74 9y ago
  Can you expand about these "relieving letters"? I didn't hear about those before...
  - ilamparithi 9y ago
    You are supposed to get an experience certificate (that confirms how long you worked in that company) and a formal relieving letter (that confirms that you left under normal circumstances and your performance was satisfactory) from your previous employer. In addition to that you are also supposed to get payslips for the last three months. Without supplying these it is very hard to get a job. Most companies also contact previous employers (through a third party) to confirm these details.
    - danmaz74 9y ago
      Thx for the info
  - shagie 9y ago
    https://workplace.stackexchange.com/questions/20945/what-is-a-relieving-letter-what-are-the-consequences-of-not-having-one https://workplace.stackexchange.com/questions/20945/what-is-... has a rather good explanation.
batushka 9y ago
Let's just name it straight: all this brainwashing about values and being part of company is a con game by HR's. These con artists are not your friends, never.
marcgcombi 9y ago
What goes around, comes around.
jk2323 9y ago
What is the story about? I am not signing up for linkedin.com to read it. (They never honor "Do not email" requests.)
- rak00n 9y ago
  I don't have a LinkedIn account and I could read it.
known 9y ago
Indian IT is making money by selling you, not software to USA; If you are sacked, hire a Criminal lawyer to get your share of Company Profits; http://www.scbaindia.org/Web/aspx/directory_new.aspx http://www.scbaindia.org/Web/aspx/directory_new.aspx
senthilnayagam 9y ago
2015-16 Was a subcontractor for a US startup which acquired another startup. We had to document the old code base and reduce the cost of operations. Worked for over 7 months. Then the founder decided it was not worth it. He fired all the remaining tech staff(acquired startup) and people who managed us. When followed up for pending invoices, we got a email with threatening tone, that they are investigating all the contracts signed up and payments for fraud. So not getting paid also happens in many cases. In another case in 2008 a Bay Area startup got bankrupt and systems engineers brought the racks and expensive chairs from office, and they were doing yard sale
jamisteven 9y ago
Whats worse? "your fired" or "welcome, stagnant wage growth for 10+ years awaits you"
jordigh 9y ago
“Quit by 10 am, or you’ll be terminated and no benefits or relieving letter will be provided” This sounds like a horrible threat. What are labour laws in India like? Is the company abusing the legal system by forcing their employees to quit via threats? Why do they want them to quit instead of firing them?

145 points by mohan_ 9y ago

From the page: At the meeting, Mr. Sikka also described how the company “released 11,000 jobs due to automation.” Many small shareholders appealed to the board to consider the “human cost” of layoffs in the software sector. That quote made me chuckle, since I have witnessed first hand the IT industry in the West face massive job cuts through Out Sourcing and that has been going on for decades now. Now I don't blame Out Sourcing per say, as governments let that happen, but it is a bit funny when the Out Sourcing gets Out Sourced.

aNoob7000 9y ago
I agree with your comment. The author seems taken back by the callousness of the cuts, but this is nothing new in the United States or even in other western countries. I think Indian IT firms have gotten a free ride for many years using labor arbitrage. Now that there's a whiff of protectionism in the air from the United States and cloud computing is surging things aren't so easy anymore.
- HenryTheHorse 9y ago
  > I think Indian IT firms have gotten a free ride for many years using labor arbitrage. Got it. So Apple building the phone in China or Cisco building routers in China is not labor arbitrage.
  - rdl 9y ago
    That was labor and environmental and capital control arbitrage, plus subsidy from the government for utilities. (Now there is legitimate supply chain advantage in the area while other advantages are vanishing, though.)
  - toxican 9y ago
    Because that's what they said or implied at all.
  - bogomipz 9y ago
    No, they are all labor arbitrage. Manufacturing labor arbitrage is just a little more sticky since China has the production facilities.
- LordKano 9y ago
  How many storied have we heard, or lived through, of people being forced to train their Indian replacements in order to receive severance?
  - nonamechicken 9y ago
    One can forego severance in the worst case. But in India, the companies won't give us service certificate if we don't dance to their tunes. This certificate is required for the next job.
    - shagie 9y ago
      While it does little good for me to say it, that is something that probably needs to change. Failure to do this could lead to some skewing of labor markets. It is in the same category as taking the passport of a foreign worker and indentured servitude. Workplace stack exchange has a few stories of these letters: https://workplace.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/relieving-letter https://workplace.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/relievi...
    - mfoy_ 9y ago
      To elaborate on your point, and to seek a little clarity on what's going on here... The severance deal thing is kind of like a bonus for helping make the transition easy... you can forego the bonus and "stick it" to your employer, but it won't necessarily affect your future employment opportunities. I assume the certificate thing is like a proof of employment? So HR saying "Play by our rules or we'll do everything in our power to make your life difficult" is coercive and should be illegal if it isn't already.
      - mfoy_ 9y ago
        More reading if you're thinking "what on Earth is a relieving letter?": https://workplace.stackexchange.com/questions/20945/what-is-a-relieving-letter-what-are-the-consequences-of-not-having-one https://workplace.stackexchange.com/questions/20945/what-is-...
    - solarengineer 9y ago
- nonamechicken 9y ago
  These jobs would have been automated regardless of whether it was in India or US.
  - jussij 9y ago
    The irony is the argument, which asks for the human damage is considered when considering the fate of the workforce. In reality, as was the case in the past and will continue into the future, the cheap workforce will always be replaced with something that is cheaper.
eleitl 9y ago
It is interesting that he mentions Western protectionism. Those of us in the trenches know that oursourcing rarely works in practice but for that part of the management that is in charge of the outsourcing program, after moving on to greener pa$tures. His successor usually receives the blame for later failures.
- syshum 9y ago
  >> but for that part of the management that is in charge of the outsourcing program, after moving on to greener pa$tures. But that is outsourcing "working". that is the intended goal of those managers, to aid themselves not the company not the employees but personal advancement
perseusprime11 9y ago
A lot of jobs were meant to be automated. Jobs (actually the work itself and the tasks invilved) generally go through phases. Phase 1 is to find cheaper ways to do the same thing and Phase 2 is automate that thing.

binaryapparatus 9y ago

Requires login or wrong URL? Is there alternative URL? Doesn't work for me.

jordigh 9y ago
Same problem for me. I don't know why LinkedIn shows me login pages too. Someone else fetched the story for me: http://www.lick.moe/paste/2f6bbfa63965f2c539e4436a028cf90d http://www.lick.moe/paste/2f6bbfa63965f2c539e4436a028cf90d

code4tee 9y ago

The Indian IT situation has reached somewhat of a breaking point, hence the current situation unfolding. The real low level stuff is now being increasingly automated thus eliminating the need for cheap labor to do such tasks. At the same time the Indian firms never quite managed to broadly move up the value chain into more innovative and cutting edge areas, which is still very much the realm of local offices of their western customers. As a result there's an increasing oversupply of cheap but not all that good IT labor now flooding the market. Fair or not there's also an increasingly negitive stigma in the west over Indian IT shops. Between growing domestic protectionism and the stereotypical "Indian help desk experience" that became the poster child for bad management decisions, I'm seeing a lot of firms bring even some of the lower level work back onshore--abeit to lower cost regions in their country (think Nebraska call centers now).

ChrisBland 9y ago
I'm seeing a move to eastern Europe from India for support level work. The time zone and language barriers are much easier there than India as well as the cost structures are inline generally.
- mdekkers 9y ago
  Also culture. Seriously don't underestimate culture. In Eastern Europe/Russia "no" means "no" (and is often followed with "why are you asking me to dumb things" or "are you stupid?". In India, they have 200 different ways of saying "yes", with only a few of them actually meaning something along the lines of getting the things you need done actually done. This isn't a slight, it is simply culture. There are many cultures where saying "no" is rude or offensive. Unfortunately, this is very difficult to translate remotely, and requires a long time of cultural assimilation. I manage a lot of "offshore" staff, and have done for about 10 years now. I'll have the Eastern Europeans/Russians any time, also because frequently the outright or muttered "are you stupid?" is followed by a "here is how you should do this", which many times turns out to be a good way doing what I want done. My team can call me stupid as much as they like, if it results in a better product/service.
exelius 9y ago

nailer 9y ago

As someone who worked for a team at IBM where we were forced to train our replacements in India, it seems odd that anyone in outsourcing would be surprised when those roles are further reduced by automation with little regard for the wellbeing of employees.

LordKano 9y ago
Stories like yours were my first thought when I saw this.
fellellor 9y ago
I don't know if this is your intention, but it is petty to blame someone, who is seeking legal employment, of conspiring to take away your jobs. The decision to use labor arbitrage was taken by managements in developed economies. The workers didn't position themselves in a way that created the arbitrage. It's silly, to say the least, when your reaction is "what did you expect would happen, when you decided to steal american/british/whatever jobs". This is just the way the world is right now. The Indian IT labor market is only just catching up to the global reality.
- tempForaReply13 9y ago
  Are you sure you're replying to the right comment? Or was the thread poster's comment edited? Your comment seems to add a little context that isn't there.
  - nailer 9y ago
    The post was not edited.
  - fellellor 9y ago
    Many young people who get into IT here don't come in their first day thinking of the big picture, ie this is an outsourced position. For them it's just a job. So it's not odd for them to think their job has been further reduced. Though it may be the logical thing to think for someone who has all the context. Also, English not being my native language, I had trouble understanding the tone of OP's comment.

planetjones 9y ago

I don't agree with a lot of what Western companies have done regarding sending IT work to India en masse. However, there is a real human cost now of the lay offs. I believe many Indians have taken out bank loans to buy property and there is no safety net in place for employees who are sacked with no notice. So they are at risk of losing their home and the health benefits (for the whole family I believe) is tied to the employer. Overall a very sad situation where those outsourcing the work by the bucketload only looked at cost 'savings' at a point in time - never the social impact of their decisions.

PenguinCoder 9y ago
That's no difference from the US employees who have faced layoff or their jobs being outsourced.
- nonamechicken 9y ago
  But don't you have unemployment benefits and social security? In India, there is nothing.
  - Clubber 9y ago
    It's pretty paltry in the US. You can't take social security until 65 (I think it's 67 now). You get unemployment but it's administered at the state level and in most states it caps out at under $800 a month, but it's been a while. A moderate mortgage is twice that. Also, we get our health benefits from companies and not the government, so as soon as you are laid off, all your health benefits are no longer paid by the company. You can pay for it yourself, but with a family, it's easily over $1000 a month with even meager health insurance. Welfare is hugely capped as are food stamps. You can only be on them for so long and it's such a social stigma in the US, most newly fired people don't even consider it. On top of that, US companies don't like hiring people who have been laid off. They think something along the lines of "well if they got laid off there, there must be a reason." It's ironic because layoffs are generally the fault of the leadership, yet the workforce takes the blame. Corporate leadership likes to think they are there for a reason too and therefore infallible. I never thought I'd be playing the, "who has the worse government." between the US and India. Honestly I thought India would be better at social protections than the US is, simply because every modern country is better than the US is. All that said, I'm sorry to hear India is going through this. It really sucks. We have the highest percentage of people who gave up looking for work than we've had for a long time (if ever). It will taint your workforce for years to come. The US still hasn't gotten over it and it's been going on full force for 20+ years now.

mabbo 9y ago

I've never understood the ways that modern companies handle layoffs- call people into a meeting room one by one, tell them they're being let go, then escort them out of the building. It's not just that it's cold, but it builds a huge cloud of oppression for everyone else. I just watched this happen to a friend, and the guy who was sitting next to him is now saying "I could be next, better start talking to recruiters". Do the companies think we're all going to cut contact with the friend and valued coworker? Of course not, we're going to be buying them a beer in a couple hours. I don't know what a better way would be, but I'd sure like to see some innovation in that space. Something less cold, something more human.

deleted 9y ago
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kemiller2002 9y ago
There are some valid reasons for it. It's sad the way that it happens, but I've been there on occasion where they didn't do that. One stats guy decided he was angry that it happened . . . . he started deleting all the loss curve data we needed off of the network. There was a hurry to stop him which resulted in the network staff having to unplug all the cables from the routers. Hours of having to put the cable back in and who know how much work was lost.
- pc86 9y ago
  No amount of anger justifies that kind of behavior. If that's not criminal, it should be.
  - jerf 9y ago
    It is. If it ever crosses (generic-you) your mind to do that, don't. The revenge is very unlikely to be worth the very significant legal risk you are incurring. Stick to tradition and bad-mouth them with friends at a bar.
    - skocznymroczny 9y ago

golemotron 9y ago

The pathology behind the hypocrisy is the obsession with values we see in corporations today. Let's be clear: work is something we do to provide for ourselves. It is a contract. That contract should not encompass a prescribed belief system, and that is exactly what 'values' are. In the past 30 years we've turned many work environments into quasi-religions where it is expected that employees adhere to particular sets of values or at least signal that they do. Doing your job well should be enough.

hyeonwho2 9y ago
Organizations of people are defined by shared values and shared goals. Throw out the values and you throw out the bases for civil communication and conflict resolution within the organization.
- golemotron 9y ago
  That's one definition of an organization. Can you think of others?
- Asooka 9y ago
  I have never seen an organization subscribe to any set of values other than "do what will make the most profit". The only goal is to increase profit. This works out pretty well, because it pits my desire for profit versus yours, and encourages socially beneficial policies, because too-greedy profit seeking destroys further chances of profit. We do not have shared goals, we have the opposing goal of maximising profit in a largely zero-sum game. However, due to how the system is set up, we can collaborate and increase both our profits more than what we can do each on our own. I don't see how anything else can be a working system. Everything else can be gamed by semantic manoeuvring from the side of the profit-seekers. The only way to make sure a given set of values are followed is to make them the most profitable course of action, ensuring via evolutionary mechanisms that only the ones abiding those values survive.
cat199 9y ago
> Doing your job well should be enough. Define 'well' without some sense of 'values', and I might start to believe what you think here.. Otherwise I'm inclined to suspect your critique and resistance might simply be some sort of transferrence of wanting to maintain the dominant own anglo/protestant 'congregational personal piety' values in US culture to the more intrinsically communitarian sense required in this context - (assuming you are from US) e.g. the philosophy of "I can believe what I believe and you can believe what you believe, I can associate or not associate with others who beleive the same thing, there is no 'correct' way, all things are valid so long as they are 'good', although I don't define 'good', because human nature is naturally good", etc, which is itself an intrinsic and communal set of 'values' embedded within the US culture that is directly traceable to the english/low-countries protestant reformation in combination with the values of enlightenment philosophy.. Agreed some companies get carried away with values lip-service without actually following through though, and, if I'm correct, perhaps this common mode should be the default.. but best to be aware of hidden bias..

TheAdamAndChe 9y ago

Many comments here are laughing about the irony of the outsourced labor becoming irrelevant, but it should kind of be worrying. Organizations are lowering the number of jobs to the point that only the most skilled and experienced workers get jobs. If there are no lower level positions for people to take on, how will the masses work their way up and improve? How can our local and global economies improve for everyone when fewer and fewer people can get good jobs? This goes for every country, not just India or America. If an economy improves on paper yet the majority of people see a decline in quality of life, what kind of destabilizing effects will that have on the area?

shagie 9y ago
I don't see that. What I do see is a recognition that only in specific cases with well defined product boundaries does outsourcing development work reasonably. On the other hand we see many companies recognizing that telecommuting and remote work, especially with things that have no end date (keep the servers running, fix the bugs, add these new features) have hidden costs. Those costs are often exasperated by time zone differences. In areas where I have worked for the past decade, outsourcing is not looked fondly on because of the recognition that it means a loss of institutional knowledge and unending support costs. There are many entry level positions open, just you need to be able to be in the chair.
- TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
  > There are many entry level positions open, just you need to be able to be in the chair. This statement proves my point exactly. Either you need to be skilled enough to have the leverage to work remotely, or you need to be lucky enough to live in one of the few cities that happen to be growing economically at the moment. When economic growth and opportunity for the unskilled is concentrated to such a small portion of the planet and country, the rest of us suffer for it. It's a continued assault on the middle class of most of the world, and has profound destabilizing effects on those areas affected by these trends.
  - shagie 9y ago

teyc 9y ago

There is a silver lining for Indian IT in all this. Indiscriminate firing to meet quota is a forcing function for indigenous software companies to grow and thrive. Will there be enough work for all of them? Maybe not. Will it raise the quality bar for those who wish to persist in IT? Most certainly yes. This is not the end.

nonamechicken 9y ago
There is already insane competition for government and bank jobs (since these jobs are more or less guaranteed for life). I know so many people who did their bachelors in engineering degrees writing bank exams. These type of news will make Indian IT even less attractive. Layoffs in IT sector lead to a dip in popularity of software engineers in marriage market: http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/ites/layoffs-in-it-sector-lead-to-a-dip-in-popularity-of-software-engineers-in-marriage-market/articleshow/59497476.cms http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/ites/layoffs-in-it-...

deleted 9y ago

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navinsylvester 9y ago

Pretty unfortunate to see lot of comments with an undertone like Indian IT workers deserved this situation. It's not just a problem which can plague Indian workers alone. Lets focus on what can be done to mitigate this issue. #1 Firing is an inevitable process but it should be a transparent process and employees should be treated with dignity. Firing an employee for cost cut shouldn't be any lesser than 30 days notice period. #2 IT service industry costing method is flawed. Head count is inflated to increase project cost. Need to adopt a better costing model. #3 Any form of automation which would result in job cut should be a board decision and not by the lower rung. The team which will get affected by the decision should be informed so they can be well prepared. Jobs are getting fewer since we are optimizing and automating(don't forget AI) - all good but this shouldn't be at the cost of sustainability.

tempForaReply13 9y ago
You aren't going to get a lot of support from the West. We've been dealing with this kind of thing for years, because of labour arbitrage. Asking for help, advice, or for us to join you in some kind of organization now that it's affecting you is... kind of funny actually... But, in all honesty, we'll be training you to train the machine models that will replace all of us eventually, so, maybe it's time for all of us to suck it up and get along.

nonamechicken 9y ago

I personally don't have any issue in Indian companies firing people at will. But they don't give employees the same freedom. All these IT companies have a 2-3 months notice period. This makes it difficult to look for another job. If they want to fire at will, I should be able to walk out at will as well. But if I do that, I will not get my resignation letter and service certificate (I am not worried about the final paycheck left overs). And I need these papers if I have to get another job.

hyeonwho2 9y ago
Sorry, but if you were already offered the next job, does the next employer really care about a severance certificate? Why is a severance certificate important in India?
- gautamdivgi 9y ago
  I'm not sure it really is - but it could be. I think it depends on the hidebound bureaucracy of the company you're applying to. It's been a while since I've worked in India (close to 20 years now). So things have most likely changed massively. When I was there I've known of folks who just quit and folks who gave a decent notice. Those that stayed the notice period got a severance certificate. Those that just quit didn't get one. I don't believe it impacted careers much. That time the notice period was 1 month, not ideal like the US 15-day notice but not too bad either (1 month was the pay period). When I left I negotiated the notice period down to 3 weeks. 2 to 3 months notice is oppressive.

edraferi 9y ago

> Saying “You're Fired!” in a nicer tone is not likely “preserve the dignity of the individual.” The guy on the receiving end is still going to get the same message: he’s out of a job and has bills to pay. I disagree. Sometimes layoffs are unavoidable, but you can fire someone with dignity. I think both tone and substance matter here. For tone, management should be civil, polite and respectful. Acknowledge the employee's contributions to date, explain the larger context for the layoffs, express regret that they are leaving the team, and wish them well. Just because you're forced to deliver bad news doesn't mean you have to be brusque and vindictive. You give the departing employee dignity by treating them like team member you will miss rather than a minor, expensive annoyance. Even kind words are cheap. Management should take substantive steps to ease the employee's transition out of the company. Earlier notice (weeks vs hours), severance pay, job search assistance, referrals, etc. all show the employee that the current employer does care about their personal well-being even as they depart the company.

pbhjpbhj 9y ago
Would you want management to do that if it's not sincere? What if your contribution has been poor or damaging. I think we agree broadly FWIW.

donquichotte 9y ago

"Indian software services companies are under tremendous pressure to continue to show growth in a slowing global market that is also experiencing increased protectionism in the west." Maybe the managers in the west who made the decision to lay off entire IT departments and replace them by Indian companies started realizing that with the cost of the impedance mismatch in language and culture between a company and its IT deparment, off-shoring is more expensive than running a domestic IT department.

zmakr 9y ago
Its not the managers who made the decision. Its the shareholders, ultimately its capitalism that made this decision.
- DrScump 9y ago
  Shareholders, individually or collectively, don't make such decisions... but they later collectively judge those who did. (Fairly or unfairly)
svens_ 9y ago
That would be a best case scenario and I doubt that's what's happening. And instead of bringing those services back locally, nearshoring will probably be considered first.

zmakr 9y ago

This is a blessing in disguise. A majority of the Indian IT workers were focused on working for outsourcing companies. Recently, I have seen the startup scene gaining momentum in India. This will stop India's brain drain as well bring in more revenues to the country directly.

OliverJones 9y ago

In Indian polity, withholding relieving letters is brutal. It makes it very hard for the laid-off person to get another job: one must present a relieving letter to be hired elsewhere. Courts aren't a useful remedy for a worker with a family to feed: too slow and expensive.

danmaz74 9y ago
Can you expand about these "relieving letters"? I didn't hear about those before...
- ilamparithi 9y ago
  You are supposed to get an experience certificate (that confirms how long you worked in that company) and a formal relieving letter (that confirms that you left under normal circumstances and your performance was satisfactory) from your previous employer. In addition to that you are also supposed to get payslips for the last three months. Without supplying these it is very hard to get a job. Most companies also contact previous employers (through a third party) to confirm these details.
  - danmaz74 9y ago
    Thx for the info
- shagie 9y ago
  https://workplace.stackexchange.com/questions/20945/what-is-a-relieving-letter-what-are-the-consequences-of-not-having-one https://workplace.stackexchange.com/questions/20945/what-is-... has a rather good explanation.

batushka 9y ago

Let's just name it straight: all this brainwashing about values and being part of company is a con game by HR's. These con artists are not your friends, never.

marcgcombi 9y ago

What goes around, comes around.

jk2323 9y ago

What is the story about? I am not signing up for linkedin.com to read it. (They never honor "Do not email" requests.)

rak00n 9y ago
I don't have a LinkedIn account and I could read it.

known 9y ago

Indian IT is making money by selling you, not software to USA; If you are sacked, hire a Criminal lawyer to get your share of Company Profits; http://www.scbaindia.org/Web/aspx/directory_new.aspx http://www.scbaindia.org/Web/aspx/directory_new.aspx

senthilnayagam 9y ago

2015-16 Was a subcontractor for a US startup which acquired another startup. We had to document the old code base and reduce the cost of operations. Worked for over 7 months. Then the founder decided it was not worth it. He fired all the remaining tech staff(acquired startup) and people who managed us. When followed up for pending invoices, we got a email with threatening tone, that they are investigating all the contracts signed up and payments for fraud. So not getting paid also happens in many cases. In another case in 2008 a Bay Area startup got bankrupt and systems engineers brought the racks and expensive chairs from office, and they were doing yard sale

jamisteven 9y ago

Whats worse? "your fired" or "welcome, stagnant wage growth for 10+ years awaits you"

jordigh 9y ago

“Quit by 10 am, or you’ll be terminated and no benefits or relieving letter will be provided” This sounds like a horrible threat. What are labour laws in India like? Is the company abusing the legal system by forcing their employees to quit via threats? Why do they want them to quit instead of firing them?