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Ancient Iraqi Artifacts Imported By Hobby Lobby to be Forfeited

164 points by Red_Tarsius 9y ago

45h34jh53k4j 9y ago
Buy priceless artefacts from warzones and funding terror groups who steal them! Hey Hobby Lobby, you should also build a conflict diamond collection. If you want to take a chance you could also get into human trafficking or organ smuggling.
- tclancy 9y ago
  "Man's gotta have a hobby."
draw_down 9y ago
Real lovely group of humans over there at Hobby Lobby.
pboutros 9y ago
Saw on Twitter that someone called them the "Wahhabi Lobby". But actually, it seems ridiculous to me that this only warranted a $3m settlement. They've (almost certainly) been indirectly funding ISIS by robbing a country of its cultural artifacts. Not cool.
- ivl 9y ago
  If I recall, they made these purchases in 2010. So just AQ linked Iraqi warlords (who you could probably bet on having joined ISIS). Ironically, if these artifacts were from northern Iraq, where ISIS has had its main destructive presence, there's a good chance they would have been destroyed. Still, gross to see a "Christian" company wanting to get items from the 'holy land' that have been totally plundered to build a bible museum.
  - ffxtian 9y ago
    Except that many of the artifacts that ISIS "destroys" are in fact sold: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/islamic-state-isnt-just-destroying-ancient-artifacts--its-selling-them/2015/06/08/ca5ea964-08a2-11e5-951e-8e15090d64ae_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/islamic-sta...
    - bogomipz 9y ago
      I agree but I think this a more recent development. Specifically as ISIS has been driven out of a number of oil fields in the North of Iraq and lost that oil as a source of funding. I think the "idolatry smashing" propaganda videos are more selective now as ISIS needs to rely more on the sales of those artifacts for funding due the loss of the oil.
  - DanBC 9y ago
    See also The Museum of Lost Objects which talks about some of the artifacts that have been destroyed. Here's one about Abu al-Alaa al-Maarri. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35745962 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35745962
  - masklinn 9y ago
    > Ironically, if these artifacts were from northern Iraq, where ISIS has had its main destructive presence, there's a good chance they would have been destroyed. It's largely understood that ISIS destroys archaeological sites so it's harder to notice that they've looted the artefacts to sell them. It also makes the artefacts harder to track and link to their POI.
- frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago
  To me this seems tantamount to funding terrorists and yet no one will spend even 1 hour in jail. From a purely practical perspective, why doesn't the government pursue prison for individuals involved in this?
  - gorkonsine 9y ago
    The highest levels of the government now are good buddies with people just like this. I'm surprised they aren't just being let off scot-free to keep their artifacts.
  - petraeus 9y ago
    If you think the law has anything to do with justice I've got a bridge to nowhere for sale ...
- bogomipz 9y ago
  And perhaps equally infuriating and insulting is this Christian company not taking any responsibility for the theft or funding terrorists. From the BBC articles; >'Hobby Lobby said it "did not fully appreciate the complexities" of the import process when it began' and >'The company imprudently relied on dealers and shippers who, in hindsight, did not understand the correct way to document and ship these items," Hobby Lobby said'[1] Its amazing that "committed evangelical Christians" who said religious beliefs barred them from paying for certain kinds of contraception in their employees health care doesn't have the same moral compunction when it comes to stealing or doing business with terrorists.[2] Sources: [1] http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40516932 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40516932 [2] http://www.bbc.com/news/28093756 http://www.bbc.com/news/28093756
  - noonespecial 9y ago
    The 3rd (of the 10) commandments should loom large enough in the Evangelical faith that religion should just never be brought into business. No matter how good the intention at the outset, this seems an entirely predictable (and often repeated) result. I think it's great to be a Christian in business and try to live out your faith, but I think it's trouble to try to be a "Christian business" and use it as part of your advertising/PR.
    - humanrebar 9y ago
      Yes, according to the Bible, God clearly wants his followers to be closeted.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
  - knodi123 9y ago
    > who said religious beliefs barred them from paying for certain kinds of contraception in their employees health care And who actually offered that contraception as part of their health care for decades, no problem, until obamacare mandated it, at which point they suddenly realized they had a deep-seated religious conviction against it.
- kevmo 9y ago
  That's how the "justice" system works in America. Giant crime by a party with a lot of money? DOJ will just slap you with a relatively small fine. Bag of weed? You're going to jail, buddy!
  - rayiner 9y ago
    The difference is that in drug cases, there is almost always overwhelming proof that someone committed a crime. Nobody has a kilo of cocaine shoved down their waistband and doesn't know about it. In a case like this, maybe it's a "giant crime," or maybe it's just a customs violation. Unless you have proof of the entity's state of mind, it's impossible to tell the difference.
    - blackguardx 9y ago
      "Intent to distribute" charges get slapped on people an awful lot without much hard proof.
      - rhino369 9y ago
        because the law has defined "intent to distribute" purely by the amount of drugs you have. They don't have to actually prove intention to distribution. Really it should just be called "possession of a lot of drugs." The reason the laws were changed was that it was tough to convict someone if you had to actually show they intended to sell.
    - petraeus 9y ago
      If you think officers need a shred of proof to arrest somebody and judges need a shred of proof to convict, i've got a bridge to nowhere for sale ... the us criminal system is a machine run for profit, not for justice, simply because SOME of the convicts are murderers is simply correlation
      - rayiner 9y ago
        I have a lot of criticism for the U.S. criminal justice system, but I've also got first-hand experience with it and I think your assertion is inaccurate. As a judge's clerk I saw the files of numerous criminal convictions on appeal. I can't think of a single one where there wasn't overwhelming evidence to support the conviction. The felon caught with a gun in his car, or the drug dealer who tried to sell drugs to an undercover cop, or the guy who was arrested after beating his wife bloody. That's the bread and butter of the justice system. You can argue that two of those three things shouldn't be crimes (and I agree--but at least half the country doesn't) but the idea that people are routinely convicted without evidence is a myth.
- rayiner 9y ago
  > They've (almost certainly) Is that true? More importantly, is there evidence that makes it more likely than not that (1) this is true; and (2) that Hobby Lobby knew about it, or was willfully blind about it? Like, what percentage of unprovenanced antiquities sales are used to support terrorism? It's like saying buying drugs (or diamonds, or products containing certain metals) finances terrorism. Yeah, some does. But the percentage is not such that it would be reasonable to try and pin someone who bought a back of weed as being responsible for funding terrorism.
  - ocschwar 9y ago
    Any percentage above 0 makes it true.
    - rayiner 9y ago
      That makes no sense. Say 10% of unprovenanced sales go to funding terrorism. In that case, it's vastly more likely than not that any given sale does not go to fund terrorism. Moreover, you're not willfully blind as to the risk of funding terrorism if you do buy unprovenanced articles, because statistically speaking it's probably not funding terrorism. Willful blindness doesn't just require ignoring a risk, but an unacceptably high risk.
  - humanrebar 9y ago
    These are great questions that need to be answered. Nearly all the rest of the comments in this thread are think veiled vitriol for Hobby Lobby and Christianity. I expect more of the HN community. Thanks for trying to improve the level of discourse here.
  - lostlogin 9y ago
    That's a good point. One could make a decent argument that by paying taxes in some places you have funded 'terrorism'. Unfortunately terrorism is a word that is polarising and is generally shouted hysterical such that it's devoid of meaning and you can't really use it helpfully.
hprotagonist 9y ago
When they start getting their hands on harleys and nukes from the orthos, call me. Happy to lend a hand.
moomin 9y ago
Is it just me, or does Hobby Lobby seem to go out of their way to remind their customers that their values aren't the same as the customers? Seriously, they should go out of business.
- gorkonsine 9y ago
  Their customers are obviously perfectly happy to patronize them regardless of this.
  - MrZongle2 9y ago
    Source?
    - Brendinooo 9y ago
      https://www.forbes.com/companies/hobby-lobby-stores/ https://www.forbes.com/companies/hobby-lobby-stores/ Not definitive proof of anything, as they could be losing money, but that's a big enough number to suggest that plenty of people don't know, don't care, or know but don't care about their extracurricular activities.
- Chaebixi 9y ago
  > Is it just me, or does Hobby Lobby seem to go out of their way to remind their customers that their values aren't the same as the customers? Seriously, they should go out of business. It's probably just you (or more precisely, those like you). It's quite possible that your values are not typical of their customers, or their customers don't care about the values of the owners of the craft store they patronize.
  - moomin 9y ago
    True enough, but I always got the impression their customers would skew liberal. But that might be my liberal assumptions about who does craft projects showing through. :)
tomswartz07 9y ago
Hobby Lobby's robby hobby: Hammurabi
- nardi 9y ago
  It looks like you stole this from this tweet? https://twitter.com/mattdpearce/status/882762284858097665 https://twitter.com/mattdpearce/status/882762284858097665
arbitrix 9y ago
So when will the artifacts be returned to Iraq?
- nappy-doo 9y ago
  Probably the day after the British give back the Elgin Marbles.
tyingq 9y ago
Does anyone know what the purpose of the purchase was? Hobby Lobby isn't a place people would go to buy things like this. So, I'm assuming it was something unrelated to their main line of business.
- joezydeco 9y ago
  Here's some background: http://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/5-things-to-know-about-hobby-lobbys-owners/ http://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/5-things-to-know-ab...
  - tyingq 9y ago
    Ahh, okay. The Hobby Lobby owner is also a founder and board member for "Museum of the Bible". https://www.museumofthebible.org/board-members https://www.museumofthebible.org/board-members
- crisnoble 9y ago
  The owners of Hobby Lobby are building a museum of the bible in Washington DC. via http://www.npr.org/2017/07/06/535823149/hobby-lobby-agrees-to-renounce-smuggled-iraqi-artifacts http://www.npr.org/2017/07/06/535823149/hobby-lobby-agrees-t...
  - spookyuser 9y ago
    Well... I don't know what I expected.
WhiteNoiz3 9y ago
Anyone else reminded of Snow Crash by this?
- kchoudhu 9y ago
  https://twitter.com/leyawn/status/882973851759628288 https://twitter.com/leyawn/status/882973851759628288
- humanrebar 9y ago
  Honestly no. Which part? The themes of Snow Crash include anarcho-corporatism, psychological hacking, and virtual reality. Which of those involves ancient artifacts, smuggling, and Christian craft stores?
  - Analemma_ 9y ago
    L. Bob Rife used an Evangelical Christian church as a cover for his plan to spread the mind-virus that he developed from the information in ancient Sumerian tablets.
    - WhiteNoiz3 9y ago
      Bingo, I was mainly thinking of a large christian organization acquiring ancient artifacts from the middle east.
      - humanrebar 9y ago
        The big bad organization wasn't Christian though. They just acted like they were.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - TACIXAT 9y ago
    >In Snow Crash, a sinister industrialist has obtained and translated ancient nam-shubs and is using them to wreak linguistic havoc in the modern world. [1] >Yes. These practical Kabbalists used a so-called 'archangelic alphabet', derived from first-century Greek and Aramaic theurgic alphabets, which resembled cuneiform. The Kabbalists referred to the alphabet as 'eye-writing,' because the letters were composed of lines and small circles, which resembled eyes. [2] 1. http://deoxy.org/aleph/nam-shub.htm http://deoxy.org/aleph/nam-shub.htm 2. http://besser.tsoa.nyu.edu/impact/f93/students/tracy/tracy_midterm.html http://besser.tsoa.nyu.edu/impact/f93/students/tracy/tracy_m...
monochromatic 9y ago
Edit: disregard. Title is bad. There's a civil suit attempting to take the artifacts, but the government hasn't won yet.
- KC8ZKF 9y ago
  From the article: "The government also filed a stipulation of settlement with Hobby Lobby, in which Hobby Lobby consented to the forfeiture of the artifacts in the complaint, approximately 144 cylinder seals and an additional sum of $3 million, resolving the civil action."
  - monochromatic 9y ago
    Whoops, never mind.
gorkonsine 9y ago
The terrorists are really only killing other Muslims in the Middle East, so that's perfectly OK with "committed evangelical Christians".
- RUG3Y 9y ago
  This is really a distorted generalization of "committed evangelical Christians."
  - gorkonsine 9y ago
    Not in my experience. It's obviously not a distorted generalization of the Hobby Lobby owners themselves, and I think they're very representative of that sub-group of Christians. Not to say that all Christians are like this, not by a long shot; evangelicals are only a fraction, and the far-right-wing politically-active ones like the HL owners are a fraction of that, but they're a really awful fraction.
    - aaron-lebo 9y ago
      Having grown up in that culture, worked at HL as my first job and a brother that worked at Mardel, you have no idea what you are talking about.
      - fapjacks 9y ago
        I also worked at HL as my first job ever, at a branch in what were the northern reaches of HL's sphere of influence in the mid-90s.
      - CaptSpify 9y ago
        Having grown up in that culture, and lived in that area before, I'd say he's actually spot on.
        aaron-lebo 9y ago
        This is his original statement: The terrorists are really only killing other Muslims in the Middle East, so that's perfectly OK with "committed evangelical Christians". If you've grown up in an evangelical church, you would be aware that evangelicals put a ton of focus on missionary work (evangelical get it) and have a lot of interest in spreading Christianity worldwide and there's also a ton of focus on 3rd world Christians and their persecution (very real). That actually has a spillover where Christians here imagine they are being persecuted. They care a lot about this stuff. Jim Elliot, Travel the Road, Gospel for Asia, Jesus Freaks, Voice of the Martyrs and other kind of stuff. It's a very separate subculture but by god do they love 3rd world Christians. I don't think anyone who has been in that culture would agree with the parent post. The truth is really the opposite. It sounds like an uninformed rant.
s73ver 9y ago
Remember, providing birth control to your employees is a sin. But directly contributing to the rise of terrorist groups, or that whole “Thou Shalt Not Steal” thing? Pfffff.
Analemma_ 9y ago
I've been taking it as a given that 2017 would just basically be Snow Crash, and even I didn't see "Evangelical fundamentalists secretly acquiring ancient cuneiform tablets" coming.
ceedan 9y ago
Per Hobby Lobby statement: https://newsroom.hobbylobby.com/articles/artifact-import-settlement/ https://newsroom.hobbylobby.com/articles/artifact-import-set... "At no time did Hobby Lobby ever purchase items from dealers in Iraq or from anyone who indicated that they acquired items from that country." lol. Don't ask don't tell, amirite? It's funny to see HL running through the motions defending themselves on this one. Surely nobody there is stupid enough to think that we actually buy their excuses.
- Brendinooo 9y ago
  So in your mind it's just flat-out impossible that the decision-makers here didn't fully grasp the complexities of the arena they were entering into? The linked article says that the most we know for sure is that "an expert on cultural property law retained by Hobby Lobby" warned the company of some things and the company ignored those things. It doesn't say who heard the warning, who called the final shots, or what their motives were. Do you know something these we don't? Perhaps you read a source that I didn't here.
  - ceedan 9y ago
    Are you that dense? That gullible to believe the PR from big company XYZ who had just gotten caught illegally smuggling artifacts from a warn-torn region of the world? Did you not read the part of the article "The acquisition of the Artifacts was fraught with red flags. For example, Hobby Lobby received conflicting information where the Artifacts had been stored prior to the inspection in the UAE. Further, when the Artifacts were presented for inspection to Hobby Lobby’s president and consultant in July 2010, they were displayed informally. In addition, Hobby Lobby representatives had not met or communicated with the dealer who purportedly owned the Artifacts, nor did they pay him for the Artifacts. Rather, following instructions from another dealer, Hobby Lobby wired payment for the Artifacts to seven personal bank accounts held in the names of other individuals." HOBBY LOBBY WIRED PAYMENT FOR THE ARTIFACTS TO SEVEN PERSONAL BANK ACCOUNTS LOL. THIS MUST BE HOW THE BIG BOY COLLECTORS DO IT HUH? Just hit up the western union and transfer some cash to a few different bank accounts.... of course. Nothing funny going on. And there's more "All of the intercepted packages bore shipping labels that falsely declared that the Artifacts’ country of origin was Turkey."
rabboRubble 9y ago
What boggles me in this case is that the Hobby Lobby people involved are not not already on a fast track for criminal charges. There are cases where simply donating money intended for orphan to the wrong type of Islamic organization has led to jail time. What more giving millions to buy black market artifacts from ISIS! I'll try to dig up a link about the charitable donation. Edit: Supreme Court ruling on providing support to organizations designated as terrorist organizations. http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-security-court-idUSTRE65K4B420100621 http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-security-court-idUSTRE... This is a better article about the same case: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/jun/21/high-court-upholds-material-support-law/ http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/jun/21/high-court-u... ACLUs commentary on Chilling Muslim charitable giving in the "war on terrorism funding" https://www.aclu.org/files/pdfs/humanrights/blockingfaith.pdf https://www.aclu.org/files/pdfs/humanrights/blockingfaith.pd... And here we go, this is the case I recall. Two "normal" women tried and convicted of providing terrorist support. The government made the case that, despite the intended charity to orphans, the women should have known they were funding a terrorist organization's larger efforts. The Hobby Lobby guys need to be held to the same standards as these (likely poor) women. http://www.startribune.com/two-rochester-women-get-10-20-years-for-aiding-somalia-terrorists/207699791/ http://www.startribune.com/two-rochester-women-get-10-20-yea...
- Dolores12 9y ago
  Don't forget Turkey&co is buying oil from daesh.
- Agathos 9y ago
  In Republican eyes, they are heroes for their Supreme Court victory over Obamacare. With that comes immunity from pretty much anything short of a dead girl or a live boy, as the saying goes.
  - TheGirondin 9y ago
    And in Democrat eyes, they were already hated villains and they are cheering for the company to hit hard.
petraeus 9y ago
Ever since Drumpf was elected ignorance is now permissible as a total excuse from the law
- mason240 9y ago
  This was in 2010 - so according to you that makes it President Obama's fault.
  - wavefunction 9y ago
    But the settlement occurred in 2017, so according to the calendar it's back to being President Trump's fault.
    - mason240 9y ago
      That's not how time works.
Analemma_ 9y ago
Don't be silly. Only poor, dark-skinned people get convicted of inadvertently supporting terrorism. Good White Christians make honest mistakes.
- rabboRubble 9y ago
  I know. I'm wondering if I'm white and rich enough to avoid consequences for having "giving money to terrorist organizations" in my browser history.
- artificial 9y ago
  How quickly The Troubles and the IRA are forgotten.
  - ichamo 9y ago
    I haven't. Donating money to the IRA used to be very fashionable in Boston bars throughout the 80s and 90s (According to my Northern Irish Protestant family). I also remember when a Hollywood actor also publicly donated to the IRA as well.
  - jsmthrowaway 9y ago
    Forgotten? There are groups who reject the ceasefire to this day.
- sctb 9y ago
  We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14719484 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14719484 and marked it off-topic.
e59d134d 9y ago
Amazing, I don't see any outrage from conservatives on funding ISIS by Hobby Lobby. There are some even defending Hobby Lobby because according to them Hobby Lobby saved important artifacts from destruction.
- illumin8 9y ago
  The Republicans have proven repeatedly that they put party over everything else. It doesn't matter. If Ben & Jerry's did this "send them to Gitmo!" If Hobby Lobby does it? They're good Christians; they can do no wrong...
framebit 9y ago
I had a summer job at Hobby Lobby roughly a decade ago. The founder has an autobiography for sale by all the registers that we used to hate-read in the breakroom over our depressing, windowless lunch breaks. Our favorite bit was the part where he justified not having bar code scanners on the registers by saying that employees take more pride in their work (like sticking price stickers on 1000's of items) when they do it by hand.
bluetwo 9y ago
Remember when a Fox News cameraman was busted for doing the same thing? http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/04/23/sprj.nilaw.antiquities/ http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/04/23/sprj.nilaw.antiquities/
mordachai 9y ago
If you read the indictment, you'll see that it is very clear that it was not a straightforward or honest mistake. Here's just one small tip, of many: If you're buying antiquities from a war-torn region, and the seller tells you to instead wire the money to eight different people, none of whom is him, it's possible that this transaction is not on the up and up. Oh, and a second tip: if you're legally exporting things you think you bought lawfully, don't disguise them as something else. But yeah... I get it, you're not really interested in the truth of the matter. You're just trying to pretend that you're smart or some crap like that.
- Brendinooo 9y ago
  > you're not really interested in the truth of the matter This is factually incorrect (though perhaps difficult to prove). I am interested in the truth of the matter. If you are so quickly and incorrectly judging my motives, perhaps it's possible that you are doing the same to the people in this article as well? Do you think this article is on the front page of a bunch of news sites if it's a boring B2B with a boring CEO who bought the same stuff in the same way for her personal collection? I feel pretty confident that if President Obama was buying these (he wouldn't, but let me make the point), the arguments would be the same but the people arguing them would be reversed. And that's my prevailing interest in commenting today. This is the forum where people will give Uber and Tesla every benefit of the doubt, so it was disappointing to click into the comments and see a mostly one-sided pile-on.
  - luddit3 9y ago
    Tired of these tribalism arguments from the right. This is not a nuanced position like taxes. The left would not defend Obama if he tried to support terrorist groups by smuggling in stolen artifacts.
- dang 9y ago
  It looks like you've created several accounts to post this kind of personal attack today. Would you please not do that here? We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14719496 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14719496 and marked it off-topic.
commenter98456 9y ago
I think a lot of people on here are "fishing for a hypocrisy story" as one commentor said. What's the point in that? what if you're right,is it a surprise that hypocrisy exists? it only speaks to the character of the individual(s) not the quality or correctness of their belief. A person did something criminal. period. what point is there to be made with respect to their religion? Did they claim their religion mandated the importation of the artifcats or the ignorance of the laws involved? or is the expectation here that people of certail beliefs or moral values are incapable of committing crimes? Regardless, I hope the people making this about religion also hold other corporations who commit crimes to the same standard and associate their beliefs or religion with their crimes. I for myself won't correlate an unrelated moral or ethical stand someone is making to a separate crime they've committed. Would you call a theif a hypocrite because he said he was against murder? or the same accusation to a murderer because he was against rape? Come on... leave some room to reason.
- bogomipz 9y ago
  >"I think a lot of people on here are "fishing for a hypocrisy story" There's no need to fish. See my comments above, they Green's were well briefed on this before they started their collection. They were briefed by a well-known legal authority. Honestly you sound like a shill. >"Regardless, I hope the people making this about religion also hold other corporations who commit crimes to the same standard and associate their beliefs or religion with their crimes. Why wouldn't they? >"Come on... leave some room to reason." Except that none of the actions or claims by the Hobby Lobby stand up to reason, which is why they lost in court.
  - commenter98456 9y ago
    Nein, the story is about a crime, why fish or something else? > Why wouldn't they? Because it happens all the time and nobody says "Oh, <insert corp> are atheists,that's why they're so bad, hypocrits!" maybe that's just because their beliefs has no moral standards at all. >"Come on... leave some room to reason." Except that none of the actions or claims by the Hobby Lobby stand up to reason, which is why they lost in court. I wasn't defending hobby lobby, "reason" in that context means accusing someone of a different crime when the evidence/context is for a present crime. You're calling a thief a hypocrite because he said he doesn't approve of murder. that is unreasonable.

164 points by Red_Tarsius 9y ago

Buy priceless artefacts from warzones and funding terror groups who steal them! Hey Hobby Lobby, you should also build a conflict diamond collection. If you want to take a chance you could also get into human trafficking or organ smuggling.

tclancy 9y ago
"Man's gotta have a hobby."

draw_down 9y ago

Real lovely group of humans over there at Hobby Lobby.

pboutros 9y ago

Saw on Twitter that someone called them the "Wahhabi Lobby". But actually, it seems ridiculous to me that this only warranted a $3m settlement. They've (almost certainly) been indirectly funding ISIS by robbing a country of its cultural artifacts. Not cool.

ivl 9y ago
If I recall, they made these purchases in 2010. So just AQ linked Iraqi warlords (who you could probably bet on having joined ISIS). Ironically, if these artifacts were from northern Iraq, where ISIS has had its main destructive presence, there's a good chance they would have been destroyed. Still, gross to see a "Christian" company wanting to get items from the 'holy land' that have been totally plundered to build a bible museum.
- ffxtian 9y ago
  Except that many of the artifacts that ISIS "destroys" are in fact sold: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/islamic-state-isnt-just-destroying-ancient-artifacts--its-selling-them/2015/06/08/ca5ea964-08a2-11e5-951e-8e15090d64ae_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/islamic-sta...
  - bogomipz 9y ago
    I agree but I think this a more recent development. Specifically as ISIS has been driven out of a number of oil fields in the North of Iraq and lost that oil as a source of funding. I think the "idolatry smashing" propaganda videos are more selective now as ISIS needs to rely more on the sales of those artifacts for funding due the loss of the oil.
- DanBC 9y ago
  See also The Museum of Lost Objects which talks about some of the artifacts that have been destroyed. Here's one about Abu al-Alaa al-Maarri. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35745962 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35745962
- masklinn 9y ago
  > Ironically, if these artifacts were from northern Iraq, where ISIS has had its main destructive presence, there's a good chance they would have been destroyed. It's largely understood that ISIS destroys archaeological sites so it's harder to notice that they've looted the artefacts to sell them. It also makes the artefacts harder to track and link to their POI.
frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago
To me this seems tantamount to funding terrorists and yet no one will spend even 1 hour in jail. From a purely practical perspective, why doesn't the government pursue prison for individuals involved in this?
- gorkonsine 9y ago
  The highest levels of the government now are good buddies with people just like this. I'm surprised they aren't just being let off scot-free to keep their artifacts.
- petraeus 9y ago
  If you think the law has anything to do with justice I've got a bridge to nowhere for sale ...
bogomipz 9y ago
And perhaps equally infuriating and insulting is this Christian company not taking any responsibility for the theft or funding terrorists. From the BBC articles; >'Hobby Lobby said it "did not fully appreciate the complexities" of the import process when it began' and >'The company imprudently relied on dealers and shippers who, in hindsight, did not understand the correct way to document and ship these items," Hobby Lobby said'[1] Its amazing that "committed evangelical Christians" who said religious beliefs barred them from paying for certain kinds of contraception in their employees health care doesn't have the same moral compunction when it comes to stealing or doing business with terrorists.[2] Sources: [1] http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40516932 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40516932 [2] http://www.bbc.com/news/28093756 http://www.bbc.com/news/28093756
- noonespecial 9y ago
  The 3rd (of the 10) commandments should loom large enough in the Evangelical faith that religion should just never be brought into business. No matter how good the intention at the outset, this seems an entirely predictable (and often repeated) result. I think it's great to be a Christian in business and try to live out your faith, but I think it's trouble to try to be a "Christian business" and use it as part of your advertising/PR.
  - humanrebar 9y ago
    Yes, according to the Bible, God clearly wants his followers to be closeted.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- knodi123 9y ago
  > who said religious beliefs barred them from paying for certain kinds of contraception in their employees health care And who actually offered that contraception as part of their health care for decades, no problem, until obamacare mandated it, at which point they suddenly realized they had a deep-seated religious conviction against it.
kevmo 9y ago
That's how the "justice" system works in America. Giant crime by a party with a lot of money? DOJ will just slap you with a relatively small fine. Bag of weed? You're going to jail, buddy!
- rayiner 9y ago
  The difference is that in drug cases, there is almost always overwhelming proof that someone committed a crime. Nobody has a kilo of cocaine shoved down their waistband and doesn't know about it. In a case like this, maybe it's a "giant crime," or maybe it's just a customs violation. Unless you have proof of the entity's state of mind, it's impossible to tell the difference.
  - blackguardx 9y ago
    "Intent to distribute" charges get slapped on people an awful lot without much hard proof.
    - rhino369 9y ago
      because the law has defined "intent to distribute" purely by the amount of drugs you have. They don't have to actually prove intention to distribution. Really it should just be called "possession of a lot of drugs." The reason the laws were changed was that it was tough to convict someone if you had to actually show they intended to sell.
  - petraeus 9y ago
    If you think officers need a shred of proof to arrest somebody and judges need a shred of proof to convict, i've got a bridge to nowhere for sale ... the us criminal system is a machine run for profit, not for justice, simply because SOME of the convicts are murderers is simply correlation
    - rayiner 9y ago
      I have a lot of criticism for the U.S. criminal justice system, but I've also got first-hand experience with it and I think your assertion is inaccurate. As a judge's clerk I saw the files of numerous criminal convictions on appeal. I can't think of a single one where there wasn't overwhelming evidence to support the conviction. The felon caught with a gun in his car, or the drug dealer who tried to sell drugs to an undercover cop, or the guy who was arrested after beating his wife bloody. That's the bread and butter of the justice system. You can argue that two of those three things shouldn't be crimes (and I agree--but at least half the country doesn't) but the idea that people are routinely convicted without evidence is a myth.
rayiner 9y ago
> They've (almost certainly) Is that true? More importantly, is there evidence that makes it more likely than not that (1) this is true; and (2) that Hobby Lobby knew about it, or was willfully blind about it? Like, what percentage of unprovenanced antiquities sales are used to support terrorism? It's like saying buying drugs (or diamonds, or products containing certain metals) finances terrorism. Yeah, some does. But the percentage is not such that it would be reasonable to try and pin someone who bought a back of weed as being responsible for funding terrorism.
- ocschwar 9y ago
  Any percentage above 0 makes it true.
  - rayiner 9y ago
    That makes no sense. Say 10% of unprovenanced sales go to funding terrorism. In that case, it's vastly more likely than not that any given sale does not go to fund terrorism. Moreover, you're not willfully blind as to the risk of funding terrorism if you do buy unprovenanced articles, because statistically speaking it's probably not funding terrorism. Willful blindness doesn't just require ignoring a risk, but an unacceptably high risk.
- humanrebar 9y ago
  These are great questions that need to be answered. Nearly all the rest of the comments in this thread are think veiled vitriol for Hobby Lobby and Christianity. I expect more of the HN community. Thanks for trying to improve the level of discourse here.
- lostlogin 9y ago
  That's a good point. One could make a decent argument that by paying taxes in some places you have funded 'terrorism'. Unfortunately terrorism is a word that is polarising and is generally shouted hysterical such that it's devoid of meaning and you can't really use it helpfully.

hprotagonist 9y ago

When they start getting their hands on harleys and nukes from the orthos, call me. Happy to lend a hand.

moomin 9y ago

Is it just me, or does Hobby Lobby seem to go out of their way to remind their customers that their values aren't the same as the customers? Seriously, they should go out of business.

gorkonsine 9y ago
Their customers are obviously perfectly happy to patronize them regardless of this.
- MrZongle2 9y ago
  Source?
  - Brendinooo 9y ago
    https://www.forbes.com/companies/hobby-lobby-stores/ https://www.forbes.com/companies/hobby-lobby-stores/ Not definitive proof of anything, as they could be losing money, but that's a big enough number to suggest that plenty of people don't know, don't care, or know but don't care about their extracurricular activities.
Chaebixi 9y ago
> Is it just me, or does Hobby Lobby seem to go out of their way to remind their customers that their values aren't the same as the customers? Seriously, they should go out of business. It's probably just you (or more precisely, those like you). It's quite possible that your values are not typical of their customers, or their customers don't care about the values of the owners of the craft store they patronize.
- moomin 9y ago
  True enough, but I always got the impression their customers would skew liberal. But that might be my liberal assumptions about who does craft projects showing through. :)

tomswartz07 9y ago

Hobby Lobby's robby hobby: Hammurabi

nardi 9y ago
It looks like you stole this from this tweet? https://twitter.com/mattdpearce/status/882762284858097665 https://twitter.com/mattdpearce/status/882762284858097665

arbitrix 9y ago

So when will the artifacts be returned to Iraq?

nappy-doo 9y ago
Probably the day after the British give back the Elgin Marbles.

tyingq 9y ago

Does anyone know what the purpose of the purchase was? Hobby Lobby isn't a place people would go to buy things like this. So, I'm assuming it was something unrelated to their main line of business.

joezydeco 9y ago
Here's some background: http://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/5-things-to-know-about-hobby-lobbys-owners/ http://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/5-things-to-know-ab...
- tyingq 9y ago
  Ahh, okay. The Hobby Lobby owner is also a founder and board member for "Museum of the Bible". https://www.museumofthebible.org/board-members https://www.museumofthebible.org/board-members
crisnoble 9y ago
The owners of Hobby Lobby are building a museum of the bible in Washington DC. via http://www.npr.org/2017/07/06/535823149/hobby-lobby-agrees-to-renounce-smuggled-iraqi-artifacts http://www.npr.org/2017/07/06/535823149/hobby-lobby-agrees-t...
- spookyuser 9y ago
  Well... I don't know what I expected.

WhiteNoiz3 9y ago

Anyone else reminded of Snow Crash by this?

kchoudhu 9y ago
https://twitter.com/leyawn/status/882973851759628288 https://twitter.com/leyawn/status/882973851759628288
humanrebar 9y ago
Honestly no. Which part? The themes of Snow Crash include anarcho-corporatism, psychological hacking, and virtual reality. Which of those involves ancient artifacts, smuggling, and Christian craft stores?
- Analemma_ 9y ago
  L. Bob Rife used an Evangelical Christian church as a cover for his plan to spread the mind-virus that he developed from the information in ancient Sumerian tablets.
  - WhiteNoiz3 9y ago
    Bingo, I was mainly thinking of a large christian organization acquiring ancient artifacts from the middle east.
    - humanrebar 9y ago
      The big bad organization wasn't Christian though. They just acted like they were.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- TACIXAT 9y ago
  >In Snow Crash, a sinister industrialist has obtained and translated ancient nam-shubs and is using them to wreak linguistic havoc in the modern world. [1] >Yes. These practical Kabbalists used a so-called 'archangelic alphabet', derived from first-century Greek and Aramaic theurgic alphabets, which resembled cuneiform. The Kabbalists referred to the alphabet as 'eye-writing,' because the letters were composed of lines and small circles, which resembled eyes. [2] 1. http://deoxy.org/aleph/nam-shub.htm http://deoxy.org/aleph/nam-shub.htm 2. http://besser.tsoa.nyu.edu/impact/f93/students/tracy/tracy_midterm.html http://besser.tsoa.nyu.edu/impact/f93/students/tracy/tracy_m...

monochromatic 9y ago

Edit: disregard. Title is bad. There's a civil suit attempting to take the artifacts, but the government hasn't won yet.

KC8ZKF 9y ago
From the article: "The government also filed a stipulation of settlement with Hobby Lobby, in which Hobby Lobby consented to the forfeiture of the artifacts in the complaint, approximately 144 cylinder seals and an additional sum of $3 million, resolving the civil action."
- monochromatic 9y ago
  Whoops, never mind.

gorkonsine 9y ago

The terrorists are really only killing other Muslims in the Middle East, so that's perfectly OK with "committed evangelical Christians".

RUG3Y 9y ago
This is really a distorted generalization of "committed evangelical Christians."
- gorkonsine 9y ago
  Not in my experience. It's obviously not a distorted generalization of the Hobby Lobby owners themselves, and I think they're very representative of that sub-group of Christians. Not to say that all Christians are like this, not by a long shot; evangelicals are only a fraction, and the far-right-wing politically-active ones like the HL owners are a fraction of that, but they're a really awful fraction.
  - aaron-lebo 9y ago
    Having grown up in that culture, worked at HL as my first job and a brother that worked at Mardel, you have no idea what you are talking about.
    - fapjacks 9y ago
      I also worked at HL as my first job ever, at a branch in what were the northern reaches of HL's sphere of influence in the mid-90s.
    - CaptSpify 9y ago
      Having grown up in that culture, and lived in that area before, I'd say he's actually spot on.
      - aaron-lebo 9y ago
        This is his original statement: The terrorists are really only killing other Muslims in the Middle East, so that's perfectly OK with "committed evangelical Christians". If you've grown up in an evangelical church, you would be aware that evangelicals put a ton of focus on missionary work (evangelical get it) and have a lot of interest in spreading Christianity worldwide and there's also a ton of focus on 3rd world Christians and their persecution (very real). That actually has a spillover where Christians here imagine they are being persecuted. They care a lot about this stuff. Jim Elliot, Travel the Road, Gospel for Asia, Jesus Freaks, Voice of the Martyrs and other kind of stuff. It's a very separate subculture but by god do they love 3rd world Christians. I don't think anyone who has been in that culture would agree with the parent post. The truth is really the opposite. It sounds like an uninformed rant.

s73ver 9y ago

Remember, providing birth control to your employees is a sin. But directly contributing to the rise of terrorist groups, or that whole “Thou Shalt Not Steal” thing? Pfffff.

Analemma_ 9y ago

I've been taking it as a given that 2017 would just basically be Snow Crash, and even I didn't see "Evangelical fundamentalists secretly acquiring ancient cuneiform tablets" coming.

ceedan 9y ago

Per Hobby Lobby statement: https://newsroom.hobbylobby.com/articles/artifact-import-settlement/ https://newsroom.hobbylobby.com/articles/artifact-import-set... "At no time did Hobby Lobby ever purchase items from dealers in Iraq or from anyone who indicated that they acquired items from that country." lol. Don't ask don't tell, amirite? It's funny to see HL running through the motions defending themselves on this one. Surely nobody there is stupid enough to think that we actually buy their excuses.

Brendinooo 9y ago
So in your mind it's just flat-out impossible that the decision-makers here didn't fully grasp the complexities of the arena they were entering into? The linked article says that the most we know for sure is that "an expert on cultural property law retained by Hobby Lobby" warned the company of some things and the company ignored those things. It doesn't say who heard the warning, who called the final shots, or what their motives were. Do you know something these we don't? Perhaps you read a source that I didn't here.
- ceedan 9y ago
  Are you that dense? That gullible to believe the PR from big company XYZ who had just gotten caught illegally smuggling artifacts from a warn-torn region of the world? Did you not read the part of the article "The acquisition of the Artifacts was fraught with red flags. For example, Hobby Lobby received conflicting information where the Artifacts had been stored prior to the inspection in the UAE. Further, when the Artifacts were presented for inspection to Hobby Lobby’s president and consultant in July 2010, they were displayed informally. In addition, Hobby Lobby representatives had not met or communicated with the dealer who purportedly owned the Artifacts, nor did they pay him for the Artifacts. Rather, following instructions from another dealer, Hobby Lobby wired payment for the Artifacts to seven personal bank accounts held in the names of other individuals." HOBBY LOBBY WIRED PAYMENT FOR THE ARTIFACTS TO SEVEN PERSONAL BANK ACCOUNTS LOL. THIS MUST BE HOW THE BIG BOY COLLECTORS DO IT HUH? Just hit up the western union and transfer some cash to a few different bank accounts.... of course. Nothing funny going on. And there's more "All of the intercepted packages bore shipping labels that falsely declared that the Artifacts’ country of origin was Turkey."

rabboRubble 9y ago

What boggles me in this case is that the Hobby Lobby people involved are not not already on a fast track for criminal charges. There are cases where simply donating money intended for orphan to the wrong type of Islamic organization has led to jail time. What more giving millions to buy black market artifacts from ISIS! I'll try to dig up a link about the charitable donation. Edit: Supreme Court ruling on providing support to organizations designated as terrorist organizations. http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-security-court-idUSTRE65K4B420100621 http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-security-court-idUSTRE... This is a better article about the same case: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/jun/21/high-court-upholds-material-support-law/ http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/jun/21/high-court-u... ACLUs commentary on Chilling Muslim charitable giving in the "war on terrorism funding" https://www.aclu.org/files/pdfs/humanrights/blockingfaith.pdf https://www.aclu.org/files/pdfs/humanrights/blockingfaith.pd... And here we go, this is the case I recall. Two "normal" women tried and convicted of providing terrorist support. The government made the case that, despite the intended charity to orphans, the women should have known they were funding a terrorist organization's larger efforts. The Hobby Lobby guys need to be held to the same standards as these (likely poor) women. http://www.startribune.com/two-rochester-women-get-10-20-years-for-aiding-somalia-terrorists/207699791/ http://www.startribune.com/two-rochester-women-get-10-20-yea...

Dolores12 9y ago
Don't forget Turkey&co is buying oil from daesh.
Agathos 9y ago
In Republican eyes, they are heroes for their Supreme Court victory over Obamacare. With that comes immunity from pretty much anything short of a dead girl or a live boy, as the saying goes.
- TheGirondin 9y ago
  And in Democrat eyes, they were already hated villains and they are cheering for the company to hit hard.

petraeus 9y ago

Ever since Drumpf was elected ignorance is now permissible as a total excuse from the law

mason240 9y ago
This was in 2010 - so according to you that makes it President Obama's fault.
- wavefunction 9y ago
  But the settlement occurred in 2017, so according to the calendar it's back to being President Trump's fault.
  - mason240 9y ago
    That's not how time works.

Analemma_ 9y ago

Don't be silly. Only poor, dark-skinned people get convicted of inadvertently supporting terrorism. Good White Christians make honest mistakes.

rabboRubble 9y ago
I know. I'm wondering if I'm white and rich enough to avoid consequences for having "giving money to terrorist organizations" in my browser history.
artificial 9y ago
How quickly The Troubles and the IRA are forgotten.
- ichamo 9y ago
  I haven't. Donating money to the IRA used to be very fashionable in Boston bars throughout the 80s and 90s (According to my Northern Irish Protestant family). I also remember when a Hollywood actor also publicly donated to the IRA as well.
- jsmthrowaway 9y ago
  Forgotten? There are groups who reject the ceasefire to this day.
sctb 9y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14719484 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14719484 and marked it off-topic.

e59d134d 9y ago

Amazing, I don't see any outrage from conservatives on funding ISIS by Hobby Lobby. There are some even defending Hobby Lobby because according to them Hobby Lobby saved important artifacts from destruction.

illumin8 9y ago
The Republicans have proven repeatedly that they put party over everything else. It doesn't matter. If Ben & Jerry's did this "send them to Gitmo!" If Hobby Lobby does it? They're good Christians; they can do no wrong...

framebit 9y ago

I had a summer job at Hobby Lobby roughly a decade ago. The founder has an autobiography for sale by all the registers that we used to hate-read in the breakroom over our depressing, windowless lunch breaks. Our favorite bit was the part where he justified not having bar code scanners on the registers by saying that employees take more pride in their work (like sticking price stickers on 1000's of items) when they do it by hand.

bluetwo 9y ago

Remember when a Fox News cameraman was busted for doing the same thing? http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/04/23/sprj.nilaw.antiquities/ http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/04/23/sprj.nilaw.antiquities/

mordachai 9y ago

If you read the indictment, you'll see that it is very clear that it was not a straightforward or honest mistake. Here's just one small tip, of many: If you're buying antiquities from a war-torn region, and the seller tells you to instead wire the money to eight different people, none of whom is him, it's possible that this transaction is not on the up and up. Oh, and a second tip: if you're legally exporting things you think you bought lawfully, don't disguise them as something else. But yeah... I get it, you're not really interested in the truth of the matter. You're just trying to pretend that you're smart or some crap like that.

Brendinooo 9y ago
> you're not really interested in the truth of the matter This is factually incorrect (though perhaps difficult to prove). I am interested in the truth of the matter. If you are so quickly and incorrectly judging my motives, perhaps it's possible that you are doing the same to the people in this article as well? Do you think this article is on the front page of a bunch of news sites if it's a boring B2B with a boring CEO who bought the same stuff in the same way for her personal collection? I feel pretty confident that if President Obama was buying these (he wouldn't, but let me make the point), the arguments would be the same but the people arguing them would be reversed. And that's my prevailing interest in commenting today. This is the forum where people will give Uber and Tesla every benefit of the doubt, so it was disappointing to click into the comments and see a mostly one-sided pile-on.
- luddit3 9y ago
  Tired of these tribalism arguments from the right. This is not a nuanced position like taxes. The left would not defend Obama if he tried to support terrorist groups by smuggling in stolen artifacts.
dang 9y ago
It looks like you've created several accounts to post this kind of personal attack today. Would you please not do that here? We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14719496 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14719496 and marked it off-topic.

commenter98456 9y ago

I think a lot of people on here are "fishing for a hypocrisy story" as one commentor said. What's the point in that? what if you're right,is it a surprise that hypocrisy exists? it only speaks to the character of the individual(s) not the quality or correctness of their belief. A person did something criminal. period. what point is there to be made with respect to their religion? Did they claim their religion mandated the importation of the artifcats or the ignorance of the laws involved? or is the expectation here that people of certail beliefs or moral values are incapable of committing crimes? Regardless, I hope the people making this about religion also hold other corporations who commit crimes to the same standard and associate their beliefs or religion with their crimes. I for myself won't correlate an unrelated moral or ethical stand someone is making to a separate crime they've committed. Would you call a theif a hypocrite because he said he was against murder? or the same accusation to a murderer because he was against rape? Come on... leave some room to reason.

bogomipz 9y ago
>"I think a lot of people on here are "fishing for a hypocrisy story" There's no need to fish. See my comments above, they Green's were well briefed on this before they started their collection. They were briefed by a well-known legal authority. Honestly you sound like a shill. >"Regardless, I hope the people making this about religion also hold other corporations who commit crimes to the same standard and associate their beliefs or religion with their crimes. Why wouldn't they? >"Come on... leave some room to reason." Except that none of the actions or claims by the Hobby Lobby stand up to reason, which is why they lost in court.
- commenter98456 9y ago
  Nein, the story is about a crime, why fish or something else? > Why wouldn't they? Because it happens all the time and nobody says "Oh, <insert corp> are atheists,that's why they're so bad, hypocrits!" maybe that's just because their beliefs has no moral standards at all. >"Come on... leave some room to reason." Except that none of the actions or claims by the Hobby Lobby stand up to reason, which is why they lost in court. I wasn't defending hobby lobby, "reason" in that context means accusing someone of a different crime when the evidence/context is for a present crime. You're calling a thief a hypocrite because he said he doesn't approve of murder. that is unreasonable.