10 ms·

This is great but what if, hold on, we paid taxes.

by jelder 9y ago

Consultant32452 9y ago
In spite of having tax funded garbage collection I often have trouble getting rid of certain things. Large items are collected infrequently and I might not want that sitting in my yard for a week or more awaiting pickup. Similarly, car batteries or other things that have special disposal rules can be difficult to find that information easily when it's something you deal with very infrequently. A service like this could help with that and I'd be happy to pay someone a few bucks to solve this problem for me.
- BlackjackCF 9y ago
  I'm running into this issue right now. I'm moving, but I'm kind of stuck with leaving the couch inside instead of being able to put it out on the curb because it's illegal to leave large items on the curb, but large item pickup also doesn't happen until next Tuesday.
- dullgiulio 9y ago
  It really is bad government. The city council should make a tender and have the local utility come and collect big items for free. That's how it works in the European city I come from. And the utility taxes are all but high.
  - Consultant32452 9y ago
    But I already do have large item pick-up funded by the city or whatever. I basically never use that service and have no idea when it is. My standard operating procedure is to just put this large eyesore out in my front yard and eventually the government will come pick it up. Either that, or often times private citizens will recycle whatever it is for money. So if this service rolls out in my area, I can either leave this large piece of garbage in my yard for a week or so waiting for the government to come pick it up, or I can open an app on my phone and have someone pick it up today.
    - leovander 9y ago
      Check with your city, if Waste Management pickups up your garbage you might have three free pickups a year on top of the yearly large item pickup. For the scheduled ones, we usually get a mailer a few weeks before they come up. Here's the description from a random city: For items that are too large to fit into the trash cart, residents may request the free pick up of household bulky goods three times per year. We will retrieve up to four large items such as furniture, appliances or up to 20 plastic bags of refuse or bundles of yard waste (less than 50 pounds each) for each request. Advance notice is required. To schedule a free bulky goods pick up, please contact Waste Management...
  - phdp 9y ago
    Why should they? If there are dangerous items to be disposed that 99.99% of the people on a given garbage day don't throw out, should the other people subsidize the disposal? Most residents are not throwing out things that need special care. By making the price more transparent, you can incentivize people to use fewer items that are toxic or bad for the environment.
    - Consultant32452 9y ago
      The other side of the argument is that people simply won't do it. If you make it difficult to dispose of used motor oil, people will just put it in their regular trash bags and it will wind up in a land fill where it's dangerous.
      - dsfyu404ed 9y ago
        Yup. The towns around where I grew up used to make you pay money to get rid of metal (!!!!). Consequently it wasn't uncommon to find washing machines and old rims in random places. Then a scrap place opened up, appliances stopped showing up on the side of the road and the scrap place that only took copper quickly got ran out of business. People don't want to dump stuff illegally, it's just the least worst option in the moment.
  - JumpCrisscross 9y ago
    > The city council should...have the local utility come and collect big items for free I don't produce lots of big trash. Not sure why I--nor anybody else--should subsidise people who produce lots of big trash.
    - dullgiulio 9y ago
      I think the free service was born out of despair for people consistently leaving big trash on the roadside. While I understand you as I don't produce big trash myself, I guess it's still better to just pay a little more and get rid of the bigger problems having trash on the roadside would bring.
      - JumpCrisscross 9y ago
        New York City fines people $100 to $400 for using improper receptacles, leaving receptacles uncovered, putting trash in front of others' buildings and/or leaving loose rubbish lying about [1]. Note that these can accumulate, e.g. if you put loose trash in front of someone else's building in an improper receptacle, that could be $300 to $1,000 of fines. Those fines pay for enforcement. They also pay for picking up garbage dumped by unknown persons. This model shifts the burden from everyone to just the offenders. I find it preferable to small households subsidising big ones. [1] http://www1.nyc.gov/assets/dsny/downloads/pdf/about/laws/DSNY_RulesRegs_2014.pdf http://www1.nyc.gov/assets/dsny/downloads/pdf/about/laws/DSN...
        dullgiulio 9y ago
        How do you demonstrate that the fridge left on the side of a public road, even if close to someone's home, actually belonged to someone? The examples that you mention are even harder to enforce. Cameras?
    - antisthenes 9y ago
      Don't worry, he's willing to pay a few bucks for it.
    - enraged_camel 9y ago
- alkonaut 9y ago
  I have zero pickups apart from household trash, so broken tv's, those bushes I cut down, or huge boxes etc I have to drive to the recycling place (15 min drive). I'd happily pay for a service to take it there but there is a catch 22: as an individual I already paid (through taxes) to leave stuff. Companies have not - so if I pay a company to take my things there, I'd also pay twice to leave the stuff there as they can't leave my stuff "for me". If I could somehow give a transport company the right to use my free (tax paid) recycling/dumping right then this would work here. Without that, can't work for individuals. Would work perfectly for businesses though.
duncan_bayne 9y ago
Wouldn't it be better if we were allowed to interact voluntarily? Pay for what we wanted and used, and support people and causes through charity instead of under duress?
- untog 9y ago
  Not really, no. These things work at scale, and it would be incredibly difficult to find a price that works for everyone without it also taking into account their income, or similar. So... a tax.
- acdha 9y ago
  Do you want to live next to the guy who either cannot or is unwilling to pay? Nobody else does either.
  - sp332 9y ago
    And that's why the government puts them in jail. Seems harsh actually.
    - nebabyte 9y ago
      I assume they give warnings first.
      - sp332 9y ago
        Right, but the punishment for not paying taxes is a lot harsher than seems reasonable for someone who just doesn't pay their garbage-pickup bill. It feels weird for those to be the same thing.
        Broken_Hippo 9y ago
        I'm gonna guess it'll be treated much like water bills (when the city owns the water processing, anyway). Threaten to call the health authority and child protective services if you don't pay the bill (after all, living in a home full of waste is a health hazard). Put liens on your house and/or car, eventually taking you to court and possibly garnishing your wages. In the meantime, no water service and they'll probably alert other utilities to your lack of payment so you'll either not get turned on or have to pay a deposit.
discombobulate 9y ago
It's a shame government services are normally junk (pun unintended). That's my experience. Off the top of my head: I would pay twice for x. Given how bad gov services are. Edit: Cool downvotes Marxist bros. Our national health service can't be super inefficient (I'm just about to go on a waiting list for a year) & my rubbish collection can't have just halved the amount of trash they take every two weeks. You're right!
- tomjakubowski 9y ago
  Marxism is entirely orthogonal to the idea of "government-provided services."
  - discombobulate 9y ago
    Socialised production & all ...
  - zo1 9y ago
    Marxism and socialism are often clumped together in these sorts of discussions. They both happen to be examples of pretty-bad and un-free systems of government.
    - discombobulate 9y ago
      Marx believed in a move from feudalism -> capitalism -> socialism -> to communism.
simonsarris 9y ago
Many towns in New Hampshire with spread out population do not want to pay for garbage pickup. Everyone brings everything to the dump themselves. These people "self-uber for garbage" as they say. Some rich folks pay companies like Waste Management to do it for them. What's wrong with that model?
- chimeracoder 9y ago
  > Many towns in New Hampshire with spread out population do not want to pay for garbage pickup. Everyone brings everything to the dump themselves. Yes, and this is pretty common even in areas where the population isn't particularly spread out.
- exclusiv 9y ago
  Makes sense and I've seen it in mountain & destination communities where a lot of the trash is from transients. However, it's possible that could lead to people not disposing of trash properly or burning it. My grandma used to burn her trash when she lived on a farm.
- ohples 9y ago
  Heck even large towns like Merrimack you haul it your self.
- bb611 9y ago
  This is common in many areas of suburban MA within 30 minutes of Boston.
MrMember 9y ago
I found out first hand that getting my city to dispose of large objects (in my case a box spring) isn't a fun process. I didn't have the means to get it to the dump myself so I had to print off a request for a special collection, mail it in with a check for the fee for said collection, and call at a later time to confirm that they had received my request. More than a week after I decided I wanted to get rid of it they came and picked it up.
austenallred 9y ago
Why is that inherently better than having it available as a service for a small fee?
- Broken_Hippo 9y ago
  Yes, actually, at least for basic pickup. I'd support it for big/dangerous items as well. It is really easy to let that trash bill go if you get poor, and folks tend to dump things when convenient or burn things that shouldn't really be burned to get rid of their trash. They leave large items in rentals they are moving out of and put dangerous items in with the regular trash. Sure, communal pickup is flawed - but so far, it seems to be the better solution.
  - austenallred 9y ago
    It seems like this is in addition to, not necessarily a replacement for, communal pickup
    - Broken_Hippo 9y ago
      The trash bill for the poor is that for weekly pickup. Luckily, many poor folks live in cities, where the cost is included in taxes. Get outside city limits in somewhere like Indiana, and you have to pay.
Tharkun 9y ago
I pay roughly a 50% income tax, and in spite of that municipal garbage collection is, well, garbage. Regular waste is easy enough: weekly collection is OK. Larger items which can be incinerated are OK-ish: need to make an appointment two weeks in advance, and pay by weight. Anything else and I'm screwed. I'd like to get rid of a metal ladder, but it can't be incinerated. I'm supposed to take it to a municipal recycling centre, but I can't because it's too heavy and I don't drive. Yet this same ladder, years ago, was delivered to my doorstep after a one-click purchase on some website. Why shouldn't I have a one-click disposal?
- degenerate 9y ago
  You do, it's called throw it in the front yard. Anything metal will be picked up and melted down for $ by junk seekers. Used motor oil, insulation, car batteries, and other toxic stuff, I could see a door service being useful.
  - warent 9y ago
    There are plenty of neighborhoods where you'll be fined by the HOA for doing that. Just "tossing in the front yard" isn't a feasible sustainable solution. Anyway if he's paying 50% in income taxes then it's unlikely he even lives in a neighborhood where junk collectors drive around
    - hkmurakami 9y ago
      typically you'll need to call a "junk collector service" which will charge you about $50/item to get rid of it for you.
    - rubidium 9y ago
      At 50% tax bracket that's exactly the neighborhood scrappers want to be in. Only problem is if it's a gated community. Then you have to pay for what the rest of us (who actually rub shoulders with the world) get for free :)
    - jimmaswell 9y ago
davidppp 9y ago
In the socialist hell-hole (/s) I live in, I pay taxes for a fairly comprehensive trash and recycling service run by my local government. The service operates weekly. However, they only take care of trash that fits into their standardised trash bags or containers. They will not pick up anything that is too heavy for their workers to lift, such as a broken TV, or too big for their trucks, such as a mattress. Thus, there are additional private services here that have sprung up to take care of non-standard trash, and they do quite well out of it.
icelancer 9y ago
Taxes are extremely high in my area, especially small business nickle and dime taxes. It may shock you to hear my employees spend a minimum of 2 hours every two weeks (to say nothing of the distress of spending time on hold and dealing with unaccountable government agencies) on the phone yelling about non-compliance of pickup and outright lies by the waste management companies about how they do their jobs. In theory I certainly agree with you. In practice, these agencies and government-backed crony companies have zero accountability, zero recourse, and no customer service.
dgacmu 9y ago
Their target isn't residential collection -- it's commercial, which isn't covered by taxes in most places.
- jelder 9y ago
  That makes it sound a lot less stupid. The Uber comparison strongly implies that it is consumer focused, and intended to privatize an existing public service (mass transit in that case).
jokoon 9y ago
In the future many services might be operated by corporations that started as "disruptive". Behind every VC, and inside the Silicon Valley, there is a big and untold libertarian agenda. I think government will not seize the opportunity to organize itself using internet technologies, for the simple reason that people will complain about surveillance (government slowness and red carpets would also be an issue).

This is great but what if, hold on, we paid taxes.

by jelder 9y ago

This is great but what if, hold on, we paid taxes.

In spite of having tax funded garbage collection I often have trouble getting rid of certain things. Large items are collected infrequently and I might not want that sitting in my yard for a week or more awaiting pickup. Similarly, car batteries or other things that have special disposal rules can be difficult to find that information easily when it's something you deal with very infrequently. A service like this could help with that and I'd be happy to pay someone a few bucks to solve this problem for me.

BlackjackCF 9y ago
I'm running into this issue right now. I'm moving, but I'm kind of stuck with leaving the couch inside instead of being able to put it out on the curb because it's illegal to leave large items on the curb, but large item pickup also doesn't happen until next Tuesday.
dullgiulio 9y ago
It really is bad government. The city council should make a tender and have the local utility come and collect big items for free. That's how it works in the European city I come from. And the utility taxes are all but high.
- Consultant32452 9y ago
  But I already do have large item pick-up funded by the city or whatever. I basically never use that service and have no idea when it is. My standard operating procedure is to just put this large eyesore out in my front yard and eventually the government will come pick it up. Either that, or often times private citizens will recycle whatever it is for money. So if this service rolls out in my area, I can either leave this large piece of garbage in my yard for a week or so waiting for the government to come pick it up, or I can open an app on my phone and have someone pick it up today.
  - leovander 9y ago
    Check with your city, if Waste Management pickups up your garbage you might have three free pickups a year on top of the yearly large item pickup. For the scheduled ones, we usually get a mailer a few weeks before they come up. Here's the description from a random city: For items that are too large to fit into the trash cart, residents may request the free pick up of household bulky goods three times per year. We will retrieve up to four large items such as furniture, appliances or up to 20 plastic bags of refuse or bundles of yard waste (less than 50 pounds each) for each request. Advance notice is required. To schedule a free bulky goods pick up, please contact Waste Management...
- phdp 9y ago
  Why should they? If there are dangerous items to be disposed that 99.99% of the people on a given garbage day don't throw out, should the other people subsidize the disposal? Most residents are not throwing out things that need special care. By making the price more transparent, you can incentivize people to use fewer items that are toxic or bad for the environment.
  - Consultant32452 9y ago
    The other side of the argument is that people simply won't do it. If you make it difficult to dispose of used motor oil, people will just put it in their regular trash bags and it will wind up in a land fill where it's dangerous.
    - dsfyu404ed 9y ago
      Yup. The towns around where I grew up used to make you pay money to get rid of metal (!!!!). Consequently it wasn't uncommon to find washing machines and old rims in random places. Then a scrap place opened up, appliances stopped showing up on the side of the road and the scrap place that only took copper quickly got ran out of business. People don't want to dump stuff illegally, it's just the least worst option in the moment.
- JumpCrisscross 9y ago
  > The city council should...have the local utility come and collect big items for free I don't produce lots of big trash. Not sure why I--nor anybody else--should subsidise people who produce lots of big trash.
  - dullgiulio 9y ago
    I think the free service was born out of despair for people consistently leaving big trash on the roadside. While I understand you as I don't produce big trash myself, I guess it's still better to just pay a little more and get rid of the bigger problems having trash on the roadside would bring.
    - JumpCrisscross 9y ago
      New York City fines people $100 to $400 for using improper receptacles, leaving receptacles uncovered, putting trash in front of others' buildings and/or leaving loose rubbish lying about [1]. Note that these can accumulate, e.g. if you put loose trash in front of someone else's building in an improper receptacle, that could be $300 to $1,000 of fines. Those fines pay for enforcement. They also pay for picking up garbage dumped by unknown persons. This model shifts the burden from everyone to just the offenders. I find it preferable to small households subsidising big ones. [1] http://www1.nyc.gov/assets/dsny/downloads/pdf/about/laws/DSNY_RulesRegs_2014.pdf http://www1.nyc.gov/assets/dsny/downloads/pdf/about/laws/DSN...
      - dullgiulio 9y ago
        How do you demonstrate that the fridge left on the side of a public road, even if close to someone's home, actually belonged to someone? The examples that you mention are even harder to enforce. Cameras?
  - antisthenes 9y ago
    Don't worry, he's willing to pay a few bucks for it.
  - enraged_camel 9y ago
alkonaut 9y ago
I have zero pickups apart from household trash, so broken tv's, those bushes I cut down, or huge boxes etc I have to drive to the recycling place (15 min drive). I'd happily pay for a service to take it there but there is a catch 22: as an individual I already paid (through taxes) to leave stuff. Companies have not - so if I pay a company to take my things there, I'd also pay twice to leave the stuff there as they can't leave my stuff "for me". If I could somehow give a transport company the right to use my free (tax paid) recycling/dumping right then this would work here. Without that, can't work for individuals. Would work perfectly for businesses though.

duncan_bayne 9y ago

Wouldn't it be better if we were allowed to interact voluntarily? Pay for what we wanted and used, and support people and causes through charity instead of under duress?

untog 9y ago
Not really, no. These things work at scale, and it would be incredibly difficult to find a price that works for everyone without it also taking into account their income, or similar. So... a tax.
acdha 9y ago
Do you want to live next to the guy who either cannot or is unwilling to pay? Nobody else does either.
- sp332 9y ago
  And that's why the government puts them in jail. Seems harsh actually.
  - nebabyte 9y ago
    I assume they give warnings first.
    - sp332 9y ago
      Right, but the punishment for not paying taxes is a lot harsher than seems reasonable for someone who just doesn't pay their garbage-pickup bill. It feels weird for those to be the same thing.
      - Broken_Hippo 9y ago
        I'm gonna guess it'll be treated much like water bills (when the city owns the water processing, anyway). Threaten to call the health authority and child protective services if you don't pay the bill (after all, living in a home full of waste is a health hazard). Put liens on your house and/or car, eventually taking you to court and possibly garnishing your wages. In the meantime, no water service and they'll probably alert other utilities to your lack of payment so you'll either not get turned on or have to pay a deposit.

discombobulate 9y ago

It's a shame government services are normally junk (pun unintended). That's my experience. Off the top of my head: I would pay twice for x. Given how bad gov services are. Edit: Cool downvotes Marxist bros. Our national health service can't be super inefficient (I'm just about to go on a waiting list for a year) & my rubbish collection can't have just halved the amount of trash they take every two weeks. You're right!

tomjakubowski 9y ago
Marxism is entirely orthogonal to the idea of "government-provided services."
- discombobulate 9y ago
  Socialised production & all ...
- zo1 9y ago
  Marxism and socialism are often clumped together in these sorts of discussions. They both happen to be examples of pretty-bad and un-free systems of government.
  - discombobulate 9y ago
    Marx believed in a move from feudalism -> capitalism -> socialism -> to communism.

simonsarris 9y ago

Many towns in New Hampshire with spread out population do not want to pay for garbage pickup. Everyone brings everything to the dump themselves. These people "self-uber for garbage" as they say. Some rich folks pay companies like Waste Management to do it for them. What's wrong with that model?

chimeracoder 9y ago
> Many towns in New Hampshire with spread out population do not want to pay for garbage pickup. Everyone brings everything to the dump themselves. Yes, and this is pretty common even in areas where the population isn't particularly spread out.
exclusiv 9y ago
Makes sense and I've seen it in mountain & destination communities where a lot of the trash is from transients. However, it's possible that could lead to people not disposing of trash properly or burning it. My grandma used to burn her trash when she lived on a farm.
ohples 9y ago
Heck even large towns like Merrimack you haul it your self.
bb611 9y ago
This is common in many areas of suburban MA within 30 minutes of Boston.

MrMember 9y ago

I found out first hand that getting my city to dispose of large objects (in my case a box spring) isn't a fun process. I didn't have the means to get it to the dump myself so I had to print off a request for a special collection, mail it in with a check for the fee for said collection, and call at a later time to confirm that they had received my request. More than a week after I decided I wanted to get rid of it they came and picked it up.

austenallred 9y ago

Why is that inherently better than having it available as a service for a small fee?

Broken_Hippo 9y ago
Yes, actually, at least for basic pickup. I'd support it for big/dangerous items as well. It is really easy to let that trash bill go if you get poor, and folks tend to dump things when convenient or burn things that shouldn't really be burned to get rid of their trash. They leave large items in rentals they are moving out of and put dangerous items in with the regular trash. Sure, communal pickup is flawed - but so far, it seems to be the better solution.
- austenallred 9y ago
  It seems like this is in addition to, not necessarily a replacement for, communal pickup
  - Broken_Hippo 9y ago
    The trash bill for the poor is that for weekly pickup. Luckily, many poor folks live in cities, where the cost is included in taxes. Get outside city limits in somewhere like Indiana, and you have to pay.

Tharkun 9y ago

I pay roughly a 50% income tax, and in spite of that municipal garbage collection is, well, garbage. Regular waste is easy enough: weekly collection is OK. Larger items which can be incinerated are OK-ish: need to make an appointment two weeks in advance, and pay by weight. Anything else and I'm screwed. I'd like to get rid of a metal ladder, but it can't be incinerated. I'm supposed to take it to a municipal recycling centre, but I can't because it's too heavy and I don't drive. Yet this same ladder, years ago, was delivered to my doorstep after a one-click purchase on some website. Why shouldn't I have a one-click disposal?

degenerate 9y ago
You do, it's called throw it in the front yard. Anything metal will be picked up and melted down for $ by junk seekers. Used motor oil, insulation, car batteries, and other toxic stuff, I could see a door service being useful.
- warent 9y ago
  There are plenty of neighborhoods where you'll be fined by the HOA for doing that. Just "tossing in the front yard" isn't a feasible sustainable solution. Anyway if he's paying 50% in income taxes then it's unlikely he even lives in a neighborhood where junk collectors drive around
  - hkmurakami 9y ago
    typically you'll need to call a "junk collector service" which will charge you about $50/item to get rid of it for you.
  - rubidium 9y ago
    At 50% tax bracket that's exactly the neighborhood scrappers want to be in. Only problem is if it's a gated community. Then you have to pay for what the rest of us (who actually rub shoulders with the world) get for free :)
  - jimmaswell 9y ago

davidppp 9y ago

In the socialist hell-hole (/s) I live in, I pay taxes for a fairly comprehensive trash and recycling service run by my local government. The service operates weekly. However, they only take care of trash that fits into their standardised trash bags or containers. They will not pick up anything that is too heavy for their workers to lift, such as a broken TV, or too big for their trucks, such as a mattress. Thus, there are additional private services here that have sprung up to take care of non-standard trash, and they do quite well out of it.

icelancer 9y ago

Taxes are extremely high in my area, especially small business nickle and dime taxes. It may shock you to hear my employees spend a minimum of 2 hours every two weeks (to say nothing of the distress of spending time on hold and dealing with unaccountable government agencies) on the phone yelling about non-compliance of pickup and outright lies by the waste management companies about how they do their jobs. In theory I certainly agree with you. In practice, these agencies and government-backed crony companies have zero accountability, zero recourse, and no customer service.

dgacmu 9y ago

Their target isn't residential collection -- it's commercial, which isn't covered by taxes in most places.

jelder 9y ago
That makes it sound a lot less stupid. The Uber comparison strongly implies that it is consumer focused, and intended to privatize an existing public service (mass transit in that case).

jokoon 9y ago

In the future many services might be operated by corporations that started as "disruptive". Behind every VC, and inside the Silicon Valley, there is a big and untold libertarian agenda. I think government will not seize the opportunity to organize itself using internet technologies, for the simple reason that people will complain about surveillance (government slowness and red carpets would also be an issue).