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Isn't this the person who ran a code of conduct that has a website which includes things like "thoughtless use of pronouns" and mentions meritocracy as an evil,

Isn't this the person who ran a code of conduct that has a website which includes things like "thoughtless use of pronouns" and mentions meritocracy as an evil, not a goal to strive for? Can't really say I'm expecting someone like that to be low friction.

Dirlewanger 9y ago
She went on a tirade against an Opal contributor a couple years back: https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/941 https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/941
- problems 9y ago
  Didn't know about that, but abrasiveness like that is really unfortunate. It makes real progress harder because it means people dig in on views that maybe they shouldn't.
  - Skywing 9y ago
    Looks like she wasn't even aware of the project, but instead saw it on a person's twitter profile and went to its github repo to get that person fired. In a way, she's doing the exact same thing, to others, that she is claiming github did to her.
    - joatmon-snoo 9y ago
      And she backtracked from the aggressive tone later on: https://medium.com/@coralineada/on-opalgate-2efd0fc1e0fd https://medium.com/@coralineada/on-opalgate-2efd0fc1e0fd
- azinman2 9y ago
  The maintainers instant reply was super flippant and worthy of retort. Never really wanted to use opal before, but if this is who is behind it...
  - myko 9y ago
    Wow. That particular maintainer is really off the deep end - here is their writeup on the incident (which is pretty fucked up reading IMO): http://meh.schizofreni.co/random/lulz/2016/01/08/tales-from-a-gate.html http://meh.schizofreni.co/random/lulz/2016/01/08/tales-from-...
    - pyre 9y ago
      Don't you understand? Since the "SJWs" are wrong, any action taken against them must be right!
    - patrickfreed 9y ago
      well that's really shitty. I read about the first 50 replies or so and found myself agreeing with the 'meh' user, but after reading that blog post, it seems aredridel was on to something...
    - TheLilHipster 9y ago
      Eh, it's only brass if you don't get "lulz" humor/culture.
      - azinman2 9y ago
        The blog post only further confirms what a self-righteous jerk ‘meh’ is... it’s clearly not a joke but some strange mini-achievement in “freedom” and upsetting the “cucks” (meanwhile getting an F in human decency).
        GlqDsLL1HLFLElr 9y ago
        I can confirm that blog post is a joke, going lengths to have a "safe" version of it (which is actually funnier than the original) should have been a good tell.
    - sethrin 9y ago
      What a perverse individual. God help this country that has such people in it.
- jwr 9y ago
  A "tirade"? I read her statements in that thread. I'd say they were very measured.
  - pyre 9y ago
    I know. I like how the response from the project has gems like this: > Protip: you won't because you can't.
  - abiox 9y ago
    they opened with 'Transphobic maintainer should be removed from project'. hard for me to see that as measured.
  - Chris2048 9y ago
    A dev contributes to open-source, also personally expresses (in an entirely different context) views about Trans that she dislikes. Demands the dev be forcibly removed from the project, invites others into thread to say how terrible it is one of the developers has the wrong political views. Suggests (prescribes) this will put people off contributing, but while borderline threatening to spread the news of said dev's views in order to make sure this happens. She doesn't care about said project, but to promote the idea of political cleansing in open source. Meh's comments, while to course, are correct in the sentiment that she isn't really contributing anything, but is instead attacking. HOWEVER, he should of said "because you won't" rather than "can't", since that's just an unjustified attack on her competence as a dev.
- georgespencer 9y ago
  Hmm. That entire thread is full of people communicating in a fairly brusque manner -- OP's comments didn't seem like a 'tirade' to me! But I guess it's up to the receiver to decide what a tirade is.
- dcre 9y ago
  It's pretty strange to read through that issue and come away thinking Coraline is the one with a problem.
  - Sorreah 9y ago
    Wait, so some person reads a twitter post of someone commenting on kids going through sexual reassignment surgery and how they consider it an issue. They find a project they're associated with. They go on it's github repo and they start an issue with a title of "Transphobic maintainer should be removed from project". Not "Potentially transphobic maintainers and how their association with the project hurts it in the long run". Not even "My feelings were hurt after I interpreted some comment of one of the maintainers in some way, please let's discuss". No, they simply demanded removal of someone, based on an, at best, ambiguously "transphobic" twitter comment. And you're here telling me that person isn't the one with the problem.
ohthehugemanate 9y ago
Meritocracy is actually a very damaging thing, the way we tend to implement it in tech. Without concrete and public metrics of "merit", it becomes a buzzword for reinforcing the biases (conscious or not) of the evaluators. Particularly in tech, those biases tend to favor white, upper middle class, males. This kind of bias is demonstrated over and over in studies, even (and in some cases, especially) among people who are highly educated and even forewarned about the study objectives.
- problems 9y ago
  Perhaps - but the goal is to remove that kind of thing, which is in my opinion at least a noble goal and should be respected even if it's hard to implement properly. My point was not that it's perfect, but that successful meritocracy is something to strive for.
- pc86 9y ago
  So fix the implementation. Rather than say "well there's not a lot of brown people contributing to this JS package so we need to get some more" why not fix the way the mentioned biases (which I agree 100% exist) are affecting how merit is decided? The idea that the best way to fix biases in favor of wealthy white men is to add new biases against wealthy white men is crazy.
  - eropple 9y ago
    The people who generally push for that "meritocracy" are the ones who benefit from it not being fixed in the first place.
    - nathanasmith 9y ago
      Does the converse not slip just as easily off the tongue? > The people who generally push against that "meritocracy" are the ones who benefit from it not being implemented in the first place.
  - notacoward 9y ago
    > why not fix the way the mentioned biases What if the biases are deep-rooted and subtle and difficult to address without destroying productivity with endless ceremony? What if the biases exist beyond that single organization's control, but still affect them? If the waves are pushing you in one direction, pointing your bow slightly in the opposite direction might really be the right thing to do. > The idea that the best way... Few think it's the best way. The problem is, eliminating systemic bias will take a long time. During that time, new victims of that bias will continue to be created. If the introduction of a contrary bias helps more people than it harms, is that really so crazy?
rmc 9y ago
> mentions meritocracy as an evil, not a goal to strive for? I think the main objection to "meritocracy" is that often there is no real meritocracy, and people use it as a way to ignore claims that the place isn't a meritocracy. Organisation: We're a meritocracy! Member: I'm getting unfairly treated based on race/gender/etc. Org: That's impossible, we're a meritocracy!
- Chris2048 9y ago
  That's "the false premise of meritocracy", not "meritocracy"; It's an important distinction that should be made. There is nothing wrong with democracy, even if some people don't like the word anymore due to it's widespread misuse.
  - Chris2048 9y ago
    *s/democracy/meritocracy/
gurkendoktor 9y ago
Quoting from an article by her on meritocracy[1]: > In the Ruby world, we insist that “Matz Is Nice And So We Are Nice,” ignoring the sexist statements he has made with regard to diversity outreach efforts. We write off Linus Torvalds’ dismissal of diversity as an “unimportant detail” and justify it based on the utility of his creations. But why is it that we can proudly refuse to use software created by corporations whose often aggressive business policies we disagree with, but continue to adopt software written by sexists, racists, homophobes, transphobes? I feel that's pretty close to directly calling Matz a sexist. Later she proposes a Code of Conduct for Ruby so that there's a robust process for punishing sexism[2]. As far as I understand, Matz' tweet would have counted as an offence. Also, while her Contributor Covenant seems like it strives to make GitHub interactions more civilised, Caroline has a public Twitter account on which she screenshots people who disagree with her for her followers to sneer at (current, harmless example: [3]). Inexplicably (to me), this behaviour is fine by the logic of the CC. I'd say it's the highway to emotional escalation. Nothing of this invalidates her viewpoints, but her approach of working for change is more "take no prisoners" than "low friction". [1] https://modelviewculture.com/pieces/the-dehumanizing-myth-of-the-meritocracy https://modelviewculture.com/pieces/the-dehumanizing-myth-of... [2] https://bugs.ruby-lang.org/issues/12004 https://bugs.ruby-lang.org/issues/12004 [3] https://twitter.com/CoralineAda/status/882735106070376451 https://twitter.com/CoralineAda/status/882735106070376451
- kaonashi 9y ago
  I don't think it's about labeling people as being good or bad, but more about not letting things stand. If you encounter attitudes from people that are hostile towards you, you can either speak up and allow them to correct themselves (or double-down) or be silent and give your tacit approval.
  - problems 9y ago
    I think sometimes opinions are best left to change slowly or through exposure, when you approach things in this way it often just comes off as hostile and that doubling down you're talking about becomes a much more common response.

Dirlewanger 9y ago

She went on a tirade against an Opal contributor a couple years back: https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/941 https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/941

problems 9y ago
Didn't know about that, but abrasiveness like that is really unfortunate. It makes real progress harder because it means people dig in on views that maybe they shouldn't.
- Skywing 9y ago
  Looks like she wasn't even aware of the project, but instead saw it on a person's twitter profile and went to its github repo to get that person fired. In a way, she's doing the exact same thing, to others, that she is claiming github did to her.
  - joatmon-snoo 9y ago
    And she backtracked from the aggressive tone later on: https://medium.com/@coralineada/on-opalgate-2efd0fc1e0fd https://medium.com/@coralineada/on-opalgate-2efd0fc1e0fd
azinman2 9y ago
The maintainers instant reply was super flippant and worthy of retort. Never really wanted to use opal before, but if this is who is behind it...
- myko 9y ago
  Wow. That particular maintainer is really off the deep end - here is their writeup on the incident (which is pretty fucked up reading IMO): http://meh.schizofreni.co/random/lulz/2016/01/08/tales-from-a-gate.html http://meh.schizofreni.co/random/lulz/2016/01/08/tales-from-...
  - pyre 9y ago
    Don't you understand? Since the "SJWs" are wrong, any action taken against them must be right!
  - patrickfreed 9y ago
    well that's really shitty. I read about the first 50 replies or so and found myself agreeing with the 'meh' user, but after reading that blog post, it seems aredridel was on to something...
  - TheLilHipster 9y ago
    Eh, it's only brass if you don't get "lulz" humor/culture.
    - azinman2 9y ago
      The blog post only further confirms what a self-righteous jerk ‘meh’ is... it’s clearly not a joke but some strange mini-achievement in “freedom” and upsetting the “cucks” (meanwhile getting an F in human decency).
      - GlqDsLL1HLFLElr 9y ago
        I can confirm that blog post is a joke, going lengths to have a "safe" version of it (which is actually funnier than the original) should have been a good tell.
  - sethrin 9y ago
    What a perverse individual. God help this country that has such people in it.
jwr 9y ago
A "tirade"? I read her statements in that thread. I'd say they were very measured.
- pyre 9y ago
  I know. I like how the response from the project has gems like this: > Protip: you won't because you can't.
- abiox 9y ago
  they opened with 'Transphobic maintainer should be removed from project'. hard for me to see that as measured.
- Chris2048 9y ago
  A dev contributes to open-source, also personally expresses (in an entirely different context) views about Trans that she dislikes. Demands the dev be forcibly removed from the project, invites others into thread to say how terrible it is one of the developers has the wrong political views. Suggests (prescribes) this will put people off contributing, but while borderline threatening to spread the news of said dev's views in order to make sure this happens. She doesn't care about said project, but to promote the idea of political cleansing in open source. Meh's comments, while to course, are correct in the sentiment that she isn't really contributing anything, but is instead attacking. HOWEVER, he should of said "because you won't" rather than "can't", since that's just an unjustified attack on her competence as a dev.
georgespencer 9y ago
Hmm. That entire thread is full of people communicating in a fairly brusque manner -- OP's comments didn't seem like a 'tirade' to me! But I guess it's up to the receiver to decide what a tirade is.
dcre 9y ago
It's pretty strange to read through that issue and come away thinking Coraline is the one with a problem.
- Sorreah 9y ago
  Wait, so some person reads a twitter post of someone commenting on kids going through sexual reassignment surgery and how they consider it an issue. They find a project they're associated with. They go on it's github repo and they start an issue with a title of "Transphobic maintainer should be removed from project". Not "Potentially transphobic maintainers and how their association with the project hurts it in the long run". Not even "My feelings were hurt after I interpreted some comment of one of the maintainers in some way, please let's discuss". No, they simply demanded removal of someone, based on an, at best, ambiguously "transphobic" twitter comment. And you're here telling me that person isn't the one with the problem.

ohthehugemanate 9y ago

Meritocracy is actually a very damaging thing, the way we tend to implement it in tech. Without concrete and public metrics of "merit", it becomes a buzzword for reinforcing the biases (conscious or not) of the evaluators. Particularly in tech, those biases tend to favor white, upper middle class, males. This kind of bias is demonstrated over and over in studies, even (and in some cases, especially) among people who are highly educated and even forewarned about the study objectives.

problems 9y ago
Perhaps - but the goal is to remove that kind of thing, which is in my opinion at least a noble goal and should be respected even if it's hard to implement properly. My point was not that it's perfect, but that successful meritocracy is something to strive for.
pc86 9y ago
So fix the implementation. Rather than say "well there's not a lot of brown people contributing to this JS package so we need to get some more" why not fix the way the mentioned biases (which I agree 100% exist) are affecting how merit is decided? The idea that the best way to fix biases in favor of wealthy white men is to add new biases against wealthy white men is crazy.
- eropple 9y ago
  The people who generally push for that "meritocracy" are the ones who benefit from it not being fixed in the first place.
  - nathanasmith 9y ago
    Does the converse not slip just as easily off the tongue? > The people who generally push against that "meritocracy" are the ones who benefit from it not being implemented in the first place.
- notacoward 9y ago
  > why not fix the way the mentioned biases What if the biases are deep-rooted and subtle and difficult to address without destroying productivity with endless ceremony? What if the biases exist beyond that single organization's control, but still affect them? If the waves are pushing you in one direction, pointing your bow slightly in the opposite direction might really be the right thing to do. > The idea that the best way... Few think it's the best way. The problem is, eliminating systemic bias will take a long time. During that time, new victims of that bias will continue to be created. If the introduction of a contrary bias helps more people than it harms, is that really so crazy?

rmc 9y ago

> mentions meritocracy as an evil, not a goal to strive for? I think the main objection to "meritocracy" is that often there is no real meritocracy, and people use it as a way to ignore claims that the place isn't a meritocracy. Organisation: We're a meritocracy! Member: I'm getting unfairly treated based on race/gender/etc. Org: That's impossible, we're a meritocracy!

Chris2048 9y ago
That's "the false premise of meritocracy", not "meritocracy"; It's an important distinction that should be made. There is nothing wrong with democracy, even if some people don't like the word anymore due to it's widespread misuse.
- Chris2048 9y ago
  *s/democracy/meritocracy/

gurkendoktor 9y ago

Quoting from an article by her on meritocracy[1]: > In the Ruby world, we insist that “Matz Is Nice And So We Are Nice,” ignoring the sexist statements he has made with regard to diversity outreach efforts. We write off Linus Torvalds’ dismissal of diversity as an “unimportant detail” and justify it based on the utility of his creations. But why is it that we can proudly refuse to use software created by corporations whose often aggressive business policies we disagree with, but continue to adopt software written by sexists, racists, homophobes, transphobes? I feel that's pretty close to directly calling Matz a sexist. Later she proposes a Code of Conduct for Ruby so that there's a robust process for punishing sexism[2]. As far as I understand, Matz' tweet would have counted as an offence. Also, while her Contributor Covenant seems like it strives to make GitHub interactions more civilised, Caroline has a public Twitter account on which she screenshots people who disagree with her for her followers to sneer at (current, harmless example: [3]). Inexplicably (to me), this behaviour is fine by the logic of the CC. I'd say it's the highway to emotional escalation. Nothing of this invalidates her viewpoints, but her approach of working for change is more "take no prisoners" than "low friction". [1] https://modelviewculture.com/pieces/the-dehumanizing-myth-of-the-meritocracy https://modelviewculture.com/pieces/the-dehumanizing-myth-of... [2] https://bugs.ruby-lang.org/issues/12004 https://bugs.ruby-lang.org/issues/12004 [3] https://twitter.com/CoralineAda/status/882735106070376451 https://twitter.com/CoralineAda/status/882735106070376451

kaonashi 9y ago
I don't think it's about labeling people as being good or bad, but more about not letting things stand. If you encounter attitudes from people that are hostile towards you, you can either speak up and allow them to correct themselves (or double-down) or be silent and give your tacit approval.
- problems 9y ago
  I think sometimes opinions are best left to change slowly or through exposure, when you approach things in this way it often just comes off as hostile and that doubling down you're talking about becomes a much more common response.