6 ms·

I like it - the all or nothing approach is terrifying as a guy, and defining levels of inappropriateness with exact descriptions of actions is very helpful for

I like it - the all or nothing approach is terrifying as a guy, and defining levels of inappropriateness with exact descriptions of actions is very helpful for those who are freaked out they are going to unwittingly harass someone they are attracted to even just acting naturally. I'm hopefully not belittling the recipients of undesired advances of VC assholes like McClure, but I hope it's also not wrong to say these scandals induce anxiety in a ton of well meaning lower level guys who get circled over as part of the problem, and thinking of a solution that considers this large segment of guys is nice to hear.

emmab 9y ago
Asking permission before touching people, and not arguing when they say no goes a long way. Want to be able to touch someone without asking every time? Ask them permission for that! "Hey is it ok if I touch your arms and back without asking in the future?"
- marcosdumay 9y ago
  > "Hey is it ok if I touch your arms and back without asking in the future?" Oh, that sounds creepy.
  - emmab 9y ago
    You could further constrain the time period e.g. "this evening". If its creepy to ask in some situation it must be even more creepy to do in that situation.
- novia 9y ago
  Often the counter-argument to this is that it feels artificial, unnatural, and it will definitely kill the mood. So I want to preemptively address it. When a guy asks before touching me, and of course I'm already interested, it makes me melt. It is so sexy and it definitely improves the mood. I just want to point to myself as one data-point. If you're having trouble believing it, imagine that a hot swimsuit model walks up to you and asks if she can rub your shoulders. Would you be like, "Uh, no, by communicating with me you have completely killed my interest"?
  - codezero 9y ago
    I'm convinced the whole "kills the mood" line is coming from folks where the mood never existed but they thought it did. It's basically victim blaming :/ Your example is spot on.
    - throwaway1572 9y ago
      As a person who asks, I can tell you that you're wrong. My spouse confided in me (years after it happened) that when I asked to kiss them the very first time, they thought it was kind of a turn-off and wished I had just done it. (But they said "yes", so there's that.)
      - emmab 9y ago
        As a woman who is submissive sometimes, I totally want certain people to do things to me without asking, but there are other people I don't want to do these things. Explicit communication is not a barrier for me experiencing submissiveness because the fact I consented years ago to my partner doing such things to me does not make it any less fun. I'm definitely willing to forgoe some fun on the first date to avoid having it done to me by someone I'm not into or don't feel safe around (separate variables!).
    - dnautics 9y ago
      I've been told by one girlfriend that asking killed the mood. I'm sane enough to have basically ignored her advice for ever relationship since.
  - dsacco 9y ago
    > If you're having trouble believing it, imagine that a hot swimsuit model walks up to you and asks if she can rub your shoulders. Would you be like, "Uh, no, by communicating with me you have completely killed my interest"? I hate to be this person, but yes that would kill my interest. I'd be put off by her asking to touch me without any attempt at building a rapport first - that's sort of weird, just like it'd be weird if you switched the gender roles. And if she established a rapport, I'd very slightly lean towards wishing she hadn't asked. All things being equal, yes, I'd prefer she just initiated without asking (after establishing a rapport). I don't mean to invalidate your point, but I have this feeling you thought that example would sort of just "make it click", and it didn't (at least not for me). It seems like this is probably a preference thing.
- throwaway055 9y ago
  > Want to be able to touch someone without asking every time? Ask them permission for that! "Hey is it ok if I touch your arms and back without asking in the future?" Sorry but this is just absurd. Courtship doesn't (and will never) work that way. Proposing that standard for human contact implies a lot of negative things about how all of us have conducted our relationships, about how all of our families and parents met and fell in love, and I'm honestly a little offended by your suggestion.
  - emmab 9y ago
    > Sorry but this is just absurd. Courtship doesn't (and will never) work that way. Im a woman and it works well for me. Do you have a specific technical reason for thinking it wont work? > Proposing that standard for human contact implies a lot of negative things about how all of us have conducted our relationships Saying explicit communication is useful and best-practice is not saying that everyone who doesn't do it is evil or every time it wasn't used someone was hurt. It's just a useful method for avoiding hurting people.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - shapingfun 9y ago
      > Do you have a specific technical reason for thinking it wont work? Yeah, it's robotic and, in most courtship contexts, weird. If a woman said "hey, I want you to ask permission before making any physical contact", I would certainly respect that, but I would find it odd and would probably be looking for a way out. Simply because "odd" means "red flag." Though I suppose it depends on the girl and how it's presented. I've never experienced that though, and my impression is that most girls I was dating wanting me to make the first move and read their nonverbal signals. That was certainly a learning process. Now maybe it does work for you. But I think what people are saying (and I agree with them) is that it is very unusual for that expectation to exist in the context of courting. Thinking back to all my past relationships (including the one that led to my marriage), I can't think of a single one who wouldn't have been weirded out if I asked permission to put an arm around her, touch her neck, or go in for a kiss (in a setting that most people might find those actions to be an option). Everyone sitting here with me agrees (3 guys including me, 3 women, all early 30's). Maybe my circle of friends is just different then yours in some fundamental way (we're all physicians, who maybe tend to be a bit more direct). But I think you'll find that most people think your position on this issue is too rigid and mechanical.
- ookblah 9y ago
  in an ideal world, yes... but none of this exists in a vacuum. context is everything and i don't think there's a one size fits all for what would be considered creepy or not in the dating/relationship world. it depends on each other's attraction to one other, situation, mood, blah blah blah. sometimes it's romantic and bold(!) and other times it's creepy af. THAT SAID, i think it's absurd that 1) given their working relationship and the hierarchy and 2) his knowledge of her current bf and the fact that it wasn't a date that he'd think any of that any of his actions were okay. and even doubly so if she refused your first advance. i mean how can you not read a situation like that? my .02
- morgante 9y ago
  > Asking permission before touching people, and not arguing when they say no goes a long way. Honestly, that's just not realistic. Subtle touching is a key part of rapport and bonding (even in a platonic setting between men). It would be extremely bizarre if after a woman laughs at a joke I stopped and said "is it okay if I gently touch you on the elbow for a second as you laugh?" I'm a huge fan of consent (ex. I almost always ask before kissing anyone) but that doesn't mean we need to extend it to absolutely everything. Humans are set up to be able to send touch-based signals which can escalate while allowing plenty of exit points. We don't need hard rules like asking before ever touching another person (what if I accidentally brush against someone walking through a bar?). We need better training on reading social cues and a culture which calls people out when those cues are ignored. A key part of healthy, mature flirting is leaving plenty of exit points and respecting them. Ex. it's normally fine to brush your leg against someone's leg. If they're not interested, they'll quickly pull away and it shouldn't cause too much discomfort. If they are, they'll maintain the contact. TL;DR bodies can communicate. The problem isn't with these communications being non-verbal, but with people willfully ignoring those communications.
  - wiredfool 9y ago
    I find 'touchy' people to be really creepy. They ignore the body language of "go the [word] away before I find something to run through you". But you say that in a workplace and people look at you funny. It's not bonding. It's a power thing, I think. "I can touch you, but if you call it out, then you're the one who is reacting and being 'sensitive'". (reversed, obv). You may think it's an important part of platonic settings between men, but.. eh, stay away from me. Accidentally brushing someone in a crowded bar is a red herring. (Unless it's an 'accident'.) That's completely different than invading someone's space to touch their elbow.
    - morgante 9y ago
      You're uncomfortable with touch, in a way that most people aren't. That's totally fine. I'm guessing you send off signals that you're uncomfortable with it. Part of social skills is knowing how to read those signals and respecting them. There are definitely people who I take pains to not touch (due to the signals they send), even in a crowded bar. I'll tell you it's definitely not a power thing. Most of the time, it is somewhat reciprocal. If it's not, then any well-adjusted person backs off.
- ThrustVectoring 9y ago
  Asking permission beforehand is a good rule if you can't read body language and non-verbal cues, but not the best choice if you can. It goes without saying, of course, that you respect a verbal "no". Like, it's not mysterious magical rocket science. Leave a graceful exit path, start small and safe, and gauge their response before escalating. If you're not a dickwaffle, this'll get more positive responses without coming across as creepy or pressuring. If you're not making a game of pushing boundaries or starting with a huge power discrepancy, this process fails really gracefully. Like, really gracefully. Neurotypicals have probably done this dance with you without you or them noticing it.
- whitemale 9y ago
  Preamble: I am not defending the guy mentioned in the article, his only defense could be that he was drunk(not good enough imho). What about when at a nightclub? What about women who rely on easily misinterpret-able body language? What if two people have totally consensual intercourse where one has more power over the other one? The issue I take here is that people pretend like the issue is black and white, while it's incredibly nuanced. The other issue is that when gender comes into play, people become emotional, I would love to talk about this topic as if instead of sex the guy demanded money from the women in exchange for the deal, then I feel we could have a much more rational conversation about this.
tracker1 9y ago
I have to agree... there are absolutely shades of gray. I've always had a personal policy of if you ask someone out, and they decline, give it a while, then ask a second time, in case of a timing issue, then never bring it up again. Though, I'm not one to force myself onto someone like that, we all have feelings, emotions and desires. It's not always easy to read a given situation. And the those outlined in TFA are definitely over the line.
hyperdunc 9y ago
It would be great if people could just follow a maxim like "don't be a creep", but clearly that's impossible in today's culture and so some official guidelines do need to be adopted by some organizations. However, Level A and Level B outlined near the bottom of the article takes it too far. Treating people like children is not going to solve anything, it's just going to promote further awkwardness, fear and resentment. Suggestions like Level A and Level B are sucking the life out of life. When implemented, they punish everyone just because a small minority don't know how to set their own boundaries and respect the boundaries of others.
- FeepingCreature 9y ago
  "Oh, I was thinking I was gonna be a creep but now that you told me that I totally know to avoid that."
ctvo 9y ago
Is there so much anxiety involved in following simple rules like don't touch people at work and don't talk about sexual topics? There might be more anxiety involved in trying to find the line and getting as close to it as possible. Is a shoulder rub allowed? Can I touch her arms? Can I make a suggestive joke? I'd definitely be more anxious trying to keep that straight in my head.
- orthoganol 9y ago
  Sorry but the rules aren't black and white like that, "Too much eye contact" "Your vibe get flirty" (or conversely "Your vibe gets weird") gets thrown in; it's anxiety inducing when you have to worry about anything that's natural or involuntary when in the presence of someone you're attracted to being policed as causing discomfort to someone. Hence enshrining detailed coordinates means you don't have to worry about that (presuming the list actually excludes such involuntary innocuous behavioral changes as extra eye contact).
  - ctvo 9y ago
    Where do they get thrown in? Outside of internet forums where men come up with absurd situations to justify their feelings of prosecution, who is exactly reporting co-workers in the Valley for too much eye contact? You're in a comment thread about sexual assault for reference.
    - orthoganol 9y ago
      Oh c'mon, it's a thread about solutions too, which was the focus of my original comment; I intended it to be "Thanks for a solution that is helpful to guys anxious about all of this," not a detailed discussion about the validity of those feelings or anxiety. If you insist on the latter, This has nothing to do with "men forums," thanks. People I know working in tech actually think holding eye contact is harassment. I had a female coworker complain about the vibe of another coworker who was clearly attracted to her; just the vibe, imagine how that affected other coworkers when that got around? You're free to dismiss this sentiment, but it's still something on the mind of a large group of well meaning guys. Again, enumerating detailed descriptions feels like a good solution for everyone.
grey-area 9y ago
If you find this sort of example terrifying, imagine for a moment what it'd be like to be on the other end of aggressive advances from a guy who could make or break your career and wanted you to submit to sex. Hopefully that puts your terror as a guy in perspective.
- whitemale 9y ago
  If a women who I find unattractive would ask for me to sleep with her for a contract, I would just find another contract. I get to choose who I sleep with, she gets to choose who she awards the contract to, we both have our freedoms. If she would however try to force herself on me, I would call the police, because she has just violated my freedom. Everyone deals with people in power, and many in power abuse it, corruption is not a gendered issue, making it gendered will only generate even more problems.
- orthoganol 9y ago
  I understand - I never claimed equivalence or even a comparison. I don't believe its wrong to acknowledge other parties also affected, especially when designing an ideally lasting and widely adopted solution.
  - grey-area 9y ago
    It was the word terrifying which seemed a little out of place, I don't agree men should be or are in terror over changing social norms. If you act naturally but respect the other person and what they say and do, you really have nothing to fear. Just treat people as equals and check they are comfortable from time to time. In most of these cases we hear about it's very, very clear that someone was using their position of power to attempt to coerce others. If you don't do that, you have nothing to feel terror about.

emmab 9y ago

Asking permission before touching people, and not arguing when they say no goes a long way. Want to be able to touch someone without asking every time? Ask them permission for that! "Hey is it ok if I touch your arms and back without asking in the future?"

marcosdumay 9y ago
> "Hey is it ok if I touch your arms and back without asking in the future?" Oh, that sounds creepy.
- emmab 9y ago
  You could further constrain the time period e.g. "this evening". If its creepy to ask in some situation it must be even more creepy to do in that situation.
novia 9y ago
Often the counter-argument to this is that it feels artificial, unnatural, and it will definitely kill the mood. So I want to preemptively address it. When a guy asks before touching me, and of course I'm already interested, it makes me melt. It is so sexy and it definitely improves the mood. I just want to point to myself as one data-point. If you're having trouble believing it, imagine that a hot swimsuit model walks up to you and asks if she can rub your shoulders. Would you be like, "Uh, no, by communicating with me you have completely killed my interest"?
- codezero 9y ago
  I'm convinced the whole "kills the mood" line is coming from folks where the mood never existed but they thought it did. It's basically victim blaming :/ Your example is spot on.
  - throwaway1572 9y ago
    As a person who asks, I can tell you that you're wrong. My spouse confided in me (years after it happened) that when I asked to kiss them the very first time, they thought it was kind of a turn-off and wished I had just done it. (But they said "yes", so there's that.)
    - emmab 9y ago
      As a woman who is submissive sometimes, I totally want certain people to do things to me without asking, but there are other people I don't want to do these things. Explicit communication is not a barrier for me experiencing submissiveness because the fact I consented years ago to my partner doing such things to me does not make it any less fun. I'm definitely willing to forgoe some fun on the first date to avoid having it done to me by someone I'm not into or don't feel safe around (separate variables!).
  - dnautics 9y ago
    I've been told by one girlfriend that asking killed the mood. I'm sane enough to have basically ignored her advice for ever relationship since.
- dsacco 9y ago
  > If you're having trouble believing it, imagine that a hot swimsuit model walks up to you and asks if she can rub your shoulders. Would you be like, "Uh, no, by communicating with me you have completely killed my interest"? I hate to be this person, but yes that would kill my interest. I'd be put off by her asking to touch me without any attempt at building a rapport first - that's sort of weird, just like it'd be weird if you switched the gender roles. And if she established a rapport, I'd very slightly lean towards wishing she hadn't asked. All things being equal, yes, I'd prefer she just initiated without asking (after establishing a rapport). I don't mean to invalidate your point, but I have this feeling you thought that example would sort of just "make it click", and it didn't (at least not for me). It seems like this is probably a preference thing.
throwaway055 9y ago
> Want to be able to touch someone without asking every time? Ask them permission for that! "Hey is it ok if I touch your arms and back without asking in the future?" Sorry but this is just absurd. Courtship doesn't (and will never) work that way. Proposing that standard for human contact implies a lot of negative things about how all of us have conducted our relationships, about how all of our families and parents met and fell in love, and I'm honestly a little offended by your suggestion.
- emmab 9y ago
  > Sorry but this is just absurd. Courtship doesn't (and will never) work that way. Im a woman and it works well for me. Do you have a specific technical reason for thinking it wont work? > Proposing that standard for human contact implies a lot of negative things about how all of us have conducted our relationships Saying explicit communication is useful and best-practice is not saying that everyone who doesn't do it is evil or every time it wasn't used someone was hurt. It's just a useful method for avoiding hurting people.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - shapingfun 9y ago
    > Do you have a specific technical reason for thinking it wont work? Yeah, it's robotic and, in most courtship contexts, weird. If a woman said "hey, I want you to ask permission before making any physical contact", I would certainly respect that, but I would find it odd and would probably be looking for a way out. Simply because "odd" means "red flag." Though I suppose it depends on the girl and how it's presented. I've never experienced that though, and my impression is that most girls I was dating wanting me to make the first move and read their nonverbal signals. That was certainly a learning process. Now maybe it does work for you. But I think what people are saying (and I agree with them) is that it is very unusual for that expectation to exist in the context of courting. Thinking back to all my past relationships (including the one that led to my marriage), I can't think of a single one who wouldn't have been weirded out if I asked permission to put an arm around her, touch her neck, or go in for a kiss (in a setting that most people might find those actions to be an option). Everyone sitting here with me agrees (3 guys including me, 3 women, all early 30's). Maybe my circle of friends is just different then yours in some fundamental way (we're all physicians, who maybe tend to be a bit more direct). But I think you'll find that most people think your position on this issue is too rigid and mechanical.
ookblah 9y ago
in an ideal world, yes... but none of this exists in a vacuum. context is everything and i don't think there's a one size fits all for what would be considered creepy or not in the dating/relationship world. it depends on each other's attraction to one other, situation, mood, blah blah blah. sometimes it's romantic and bold(!) and other times it's creepy af. THAT SAID, i think it's absurd that 1) given their working relationship and the hierarchy and 2) his knowledge of her current bf and the fact that it wasn't a date that he'd think any of that any of his actions were okay. and even doubly so if she refused your first advance. i mean how can you not read a situation like that? my .02
morgante 9y ago
> Asking permission before touching people, and not arguing when they say no goes a long way. Honestly, that's just not realistic. Subtle touching is a key part of rapport and bonding (even in a platonic setting between men). It would be extremely bizarre if after a woman laughs at a joke I stopped and said "is it okay if I gently touch you on the elbow for a second as you laugh?" I'm a huge fan of consent (ex. I almost always ask before kissing anyone) but that doesn't mean we need to extend it to absolutely everything. Humans are set up to be able to send touch-based signals which can escalate while allowing plenty of exit points. We don't need hard rules like asking before ever touching another person (what if I accidentally brush against someone walking through a bar?). We need better training on reading social cues and a culture which calls people out when those cues are ignored. A key part of healthy, mature flirting is leaving plenty of exit points and respecting them. Ex. it's normally fine to brush your leg against someone's leg. If they're not interested, they'll quickly pull away and it shouldn't cause too much discomfort. If they are, they'll maintain the contact. TL;DR bodies can communicate. The problem isn't with these communications being non-verbal, but with people willfully ignoring those communications.
- wiredfool 9y ago
  I find 'touchy' people to be really creepy. They ignore the body language of "go the [word] away before I find something to run through you". But you say that in a workplace and people look at you funny. It's not bonding. It's a power thing, I think. "I can touch you, but if you call it out, then you're the one who is reacting and being 'sensitive'". (reversed, obv). You may think it's an important part of platonic settings between men, but.. eh, stay away from me. Accidentally brushing someone in a crowded bar is a red herring. (Unless it's an 'accident'.) That's completely different than invading someone's space to touch their elbow.
  - morgante 9y ago
    You're uncomfortable with touch, in a way that most people aren't. That's totally fine. I'm guessing you send off signals that you're uncomfortable with it. Part of social skills is knowing how to read those signals and respecting them. There are definitely people who I take pains to not touch (due to the signals they send), even in a crowded bar. I'll tell you it's definitely not a power thing. Most of the time, it is somewhat reciprocal. If it's not, then any well-adjusted person backs off.
ThrustVectoring 9y ago
Asking permission beforehand is a good rule if you can't read body language and non-verbal cues, but not the best choice if you can. It goes without saying, of course, that you respect a verbal "no". Like, it's not mysterious magical rocket science. Leave a graceful exit path, start small and safe, and gauge their response before escalating. If you're not a dickwaffle, this'll get more positive responses without coming across as creepy or pressuring. If you're not making a game of pushing boundaries or starting with a huge power discrepancy, this process fails really gracefully. Like, really gracefully. Neurotypicals have probably done this dance with you without you or them noticing it.
whitemale 9y ago
Preamble: I am not defending the guy mentioned in the article, his only defense could be that he was drunk(not good enough imho). What about when at a nightclub? What about women who rely on easily misinterpret-able body language? What if two people have totally consensual intercourse where one has more power over the other one? The issue I take here is that people pretend like the issue is black and white, while it's incredibly nuanced. The other issue is that when gender comes into play, people become emotional, I would love to talk about this topic as if instead of sex the guy demanded money from the women in exchange for the deal, then I feel we could have a much more rational conversation about this.

tracker1 9y ago

I have to agree... there are absolutely shades of gray. I've always had a personal policy of if you ask someone out, and they decline, give it a while, then ask a second time, in case of a timing issue, then never bring it up again. Though, I'm not one to force myself onto someone like that, we all have feelings, emotions and desires. It's not always easy to read a given situation. And the those outlined in TFA are definitely over the line.

hyperdunc 9y ago

It would be great if people could just follow a maxim like "don't be a creep", but clearly that's impossible in today's culture and so some official guidelines do need to be adopted by some organizations. However, Level A and Level B outlined near the bottom of the article takes it too far. Treating people like children is not going to solve anything, it's just going to promote further awkwardness, fear and resentment. Suggestions like Level A and Level B are sucking the life out of life. When implemented, they punish everyone just because a small minority don't know how to set their own boundaries and respect the boundaries of others.

FeepingCreature 9y ago
"Oh, I was thinking I was gonna be a creep but now that you told me that I totally know to avoid that."

ctvo 9y ago

Is there so much anxiety involved in following simple rules like don't touch people at work and don't talk about sexual topics? There might be more anxiety involved in trying to find the line and getting as close to it as possible. Is a shoulder rub allowed? Can I touch her arms? Can I make a suggestive joke? I'd definitely be more anxious trying to keep that straight in my head.

orthoganol 9y ago
Sorry but the rules aren't black and white like that, "Too much eye contact" "Your vibe get flirty" (or conversely "Your vibe gets weird") gets thrown in; it's anxiety inducing when you have to worry about anything that's natural or involuntary when in the presence of someone you're attracted to being policed as causing discomfort to someone. Hence enshrining detailed coordinates means you don't have to worry about that (presuming the list actually excludes such involuntary innocuous behavioral changes as extra eye contact).
- ctvo 9y ago
  Where do they get thrown in? Outside of internet forums where men come up with absurd situations to justify their feelings of prosecution, who is exactly reporting co-workers in the Valley for too much eye contact? You're in a comment thread about sexual assault for reference.
  - orthoganol 9y ago
    Oh c'mon, it's a thread about solutions too, which was the focus of my original comment; I intended it to be "Thanks for a solution that is helpful to guys anxious about all of this," not a detailed discussion about the validity of those feelings or anxiety. If you insist on the latter, This has nothing to do with "men forums," thanks. People I know working in tech actually think holding eye contact is harassment. I had a female coworker complain about the vibe of another coworker who was clearly attracted to her; just the vibe, imagine how that affected other coworkers when that got around? You're free to dismiss this sentiment, but it's still something on the mind of a large group of well meaning guys. Again, enumerating detailed descriptions feels like a good solution for everyone.

grey-area 9y ago

If you find this sort of example terrifying, imagine for a moment what it'd be like to be on the other end of aggressive advances from a guy who could make or break your career and wanted you to submit to sex. Hopefully that puts your terror as a guy in perspective.

whitemale 9y ago
If a women who I find unattractive would ask for me to sleep with her for a contract, I would just find another contract. I get to choose who I sleep with, she gets to choose who she awards the contract to, we both have our freedoms. If she would however try to force herself on me, I would call the police, because she has just violated my freedom. Everyone deals with people in power, and many in power abuse it, corruption is not a gendered issue, making it gendered will only generate even more problems.
orthoganol 9y ago
I understand - I never claimed equivalence or even a comparison. I don't believe its wrong to acknowledge other parties also affected, especially when designing an ideally lasting and widely adopted solution.
- grey-area 9y ago
  It was the word terrifying which seemed a little out of place, I don't agree men should be or are in terror over changing social norms. If you act naturally but respect the other person and what they say and do, you really have nothing to fear. Just treat people as equals and check they are comfortable from time to time. In most of these cases we hear about it's very, very clear that someone was using their position of power to attempt to coerce others. If you don't do that, you have nothing to feel terror about.