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"Poverty causes poverty." I couldn't agree more. I think the model is exactly right: too many miseries, not enough motivation to alleviate them. But I don't

by Dove 16y ago

"Poverty causes poverty." I couldn't agree more. I think the model is exactly right: too many miseries, not enough motivation to alleviate them. But I don't like the proposed solution of giving away money; that fosters dependency. I think the best approach is a personal one. Friends I've had who were poor were sometimes poor due to circumstances beyond their control, but most often they had just never learned how to live differently. They hadn't been taught how to handle money. They didn't understand budgets. They ate fast food; we cooked. They bought tons of toys; we had fun money, but it was tracked and budgeted. They bought pre-packaged sausages; we bought potatoes. They failed to pay bills for months on end, constantly fighting fees and debt collectors. We tracked and budgeted everything. For some of these people, it was totally lifechanging just being friends with my family--seeing how we ran a clean household on a shoestring budget, and saved money. A poor person who's good friends with a not-really-poor person has a lot of advantages. Not-really-poor can alleviate some of the worst pain of poverty: help out when they need a lift or a dinner or an advocate or a place to stay. But the major advantage is lifestyle modeling. Poor can see what Not-Really-Poor does that makes it all hang together, that solves all the problems at once. And he sees how he could maybe get there himself. Economically mixed neighborhoods, a sense of neighborliness, hobby groups (say, gaming) that cut across social classes and create friendships. I have observed these things to effectively combat poverty.

pbhjpbhj 16y ago
>But the major advantage is lifestyle modelling. Poor can see what Not-Really-Poor does that makes it all hang together, that solves all the problems at once. And he sees how he could maybe get there himself. Hmm. We pay our mortgage and bills on time (mostly), we cook for ourselves, we use second hand washable nappies, walk rather than driving (we need a car for our work though; walking may actually cost more I've never done a complete analysis but have heard this suggested), have second hand and donated clothes and toys and furniture, cancelled our TV license, grow some of our own food, etc., but we're still poor. How poverty causes poverty for us is that we can't afford as healthy food as we'd like. We don't have time/money for entertainment (except the net which is needed for work) and we get excluded from social activities by entry costs (we can't afford to go out to meals or buy drinks at the pub, etc.). Moreover as we have a mortgage on a house we have maintenance costs which we can't afford, this is a time bomb really as dilapidation is progressive, early action avoids more cost later. I should now be doing repairs for winter but can't really afford them. We could be poorer, we can afford 3 meals a day again and even some non-essentials, and largely this has been a choice to value a particular lifestyle and promotion of creativity over material values. Basically we don't want for more education on frugal living but I can see that others do. Indeed we have friends with more money than us (and in particular a friend on benefits!) that we try and encourage to make savings when we see them wasting money.
- Dove 16y ago
  Indeed, this is an aspect of poverty often overlooked: when you have no money, everything is so much harder and more expensive. You can't just hop in the car and go downtown for the cost of a little gas; you have to do something like dig up bus fare and wait at a stop for two hours. Tossing a load in the washer instead of hauling it to the laundromat, dishwasher meaning a device rather than a person, buying and storing in bulk because you have an extra freezer. When you're poor, time and money saving devices like these sure would be nice. And then there's the neglect of routine car and house maintainence that becomes acute and expensive, doctor's bills when you couldn't even afford insurance, late fees for missed payments, credit cards that hike the rate on you when you become a "risk". Seems only the rich could ever afford to be poor. I don't know much about life on the cheap in the UK (which, from your references to nappies and TV licenses, I gather is where you're from). It sounds to me like you know what you're doing. Over here (in the US), if someone complained they didn't have enough money to eat healthy, I'd be awfully concerned. Unless you have an exotic notion of 'healthy' that involves concepts like organic food and complex carbohydrates, it really is pretty cheap to eat healthy. If you're so poor that you're giving up things like spaghetti, potatoes, rice, beans, carrots, cheese, and milk for ramen, and you've been doing it so long that it's impacting your energy and lifestyle, you're in a really bad way. Over here I'd encourage you to apply for EBT and look at local food banks. No shame in it. Helping people avoid that kind of poverty trap is what those programs are there for. There definitely is a level of poverty where the money saved starts to be destructive, and it sounds like you're in it. Sorry to hear that. Sorry to hear you're committed to a mortgate in the midst of that; that makes it hard to downsize, match your income, and take some of the pressure off. Mortgages and creative lifestyles can be a bad mix. I hope you get the cash flow going the right direction sometime soon.
  - megablast 16y ago
    I am sorry, I don't agree with this at all. I have never had a car, I have never had a problem with laundromats, and I have never bought bulk amounts of food to store in a freezer. For almost a year, I didn't even have a fridge. These are not the reasons that people are poor, and they did not keep me poor. These DO NOT make it harder or more expensive to live. Most people I know do the washing once a week, whether they have a laundry or not. I can not conceive of a way in which washing ever day can make your life better or richer. Catching the bus actually makes things cheaper for you, no need for parking, insurance, gas, cars, etc... And bulk buying meat is not going to save you that much. There are a lot better things you can do for your diet that will save you money, and improve your health.

by Dove 16y ago

pbhjpbhj 16y ago

>But the major advantage is lifestyle modelling. Poor can see what Not-Really-Poor does that makes it all hang together, that solves all the problems at once. And he sees how he could maybe get there himself. Hmm. We pay our mortgage and bills on time (mostly), we cook for ourselves, we use second hand washable nappies, walk rather than driving (we need a car for our work though; walking may actually cost more I've never done a complete analysis but have heard this suggested), have second hand and donated clothes and toys and furniture, cancelled our TV license, grow some of our own food, etc., but we're still poor. How poverty causes poverty for us is that we can't afford as healthy food as we'd like. We don't have time/money for entertainment (except the net which is needed for work) and we get excluded from social activities by entry costs (we can't afford to go out to meals or buy drinks at the pub, etc.). Moreover as we have a mortgage on a house we have maintenance costs which we can't afford, this is a time bomb really as dilapidation is progressive, early action avoids more cost later. I should now be doing repairs for winter but can't really afford them. We could be poorer, we can afford 3 meals a day again and even some non-essentials, and largely this has been a choice to value a particular lifestyle and promotion of creativity over material values. Basically we don't want for more education on frugal living but I can see that others do. Indeed we have friends with more money than us (and in particular a friend on benefits!) that we try and encourage to make savings when we see them wasting money.

Dove 16y ago
Indeed, this is an aspect of poverty often overlooked: when you have no money, everything is so much harder and more expensive. You can't just hop in the car and go downtown for the cost of a little gas; you have to do something like dig up bus fare and wait at a stop for two hours. Tossing a load in the washer instead of hauling it to the laundromat, dishwasher meaning a device rather than a person, buying and storing in bulk because you have an extra freezer. When you're poor, time and money saving devices like these sure would be nice. And then there's the neglect of routine car and house maintainence that becomes acute and expensive, doctor's bills when you couldn't even afford insurance, late fees for missed payments, credit cards that hike the rate on you when you become a "risk". Seems only the rich could ever afford to be poor. I don't know much about life on the cheap in the UK (which, from your references to nappies and TV licenses, I gather is where you're from). It sounds to me like you know what you're doing. Over here (in the US), if someone complained they didn't have enough money to eat healthy, I'd be awfully concerned. Unless you have an exotic notion of 'healthy' that involves concepts like organic food and complex carbohydrates, it really is pretty cheap to eat healthy. If you're so poor that you're giving up things like spaghetti, potatoes, rice, beans, carrots, cheese, and milk for ramen, and you've been doing it so long that it's impacting your energy and lifestyle, you're in a really bad way. Over here I'd encourage you to apply for EBT and look at local food banks. No shame in it. Helping people avoid that kind of poverty trap is what those programs are there for. There definitely is a level of poverty where the money saved starts to be destructive, and it sounds like you're in it. Sorry to hear that. Sorry to hear you're committed to a mortgate in the midst of that; that makes it hard to downsize, match your income, and take some of the pressure off. Mortgages and creative lifestyles can be a bad mix. I hope you get the cash flow going the right direction sometime soon.
- megablast 16y ago
  I am sorry, I don't agree with this at all. I have never had a car, I have never had a problem with laundromats, and I have never bought bulk amounts of food to store in a freezer. For almost a year, I didn't even have a fridge. These are not the reasons that people are poor, and they did not keep me poor. These DO NOT make it harder or more expensive to live. Most people I know do the washing once a week, whether they have a laundry or not. I can not conceive of a way in which washing ever day can make your life better or richer. Catching the bus actually makes things cheaper for you, no need for parking, insurance, gas, cars, etc... And bulk buying meat is not going to save you that much. There are a lot better things you can do for your diet that will save you money, and improve your health.