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Acetaminophen reduces empathy for pain (2016)
- mulligan 9y agoMight explain baby boomer behavior
- burntrelish1273 9y agoThere is unlikely to be a cultural or generational explanation other than having the benefits of working when there was decent income combined with mostly less violence plus higher civilized behavior standards. https://www.ted.com/talks/paul_piff_does_money_make_you_mean https://www.ted.com/talks/paul_piff_does_money_make_you_mean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Better_Angels_of_Our_Nature https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Better_Angels_of_Our_Natur...
- eeZah7Ux 9y ago"If your job ... depends on feeling empathy for others, you might want to reconsider reaching for the Tylenol" I'm afraid many "competitive" jobs depend on the opposite.
- atemerev 9y agoLike those thousands Facebooks and Reddit mods, whose job is to deal with unspeakable horrors every day. Though I suspect that acetaminophen might not be enough in this case, and they use a stronger drug with proven effect of easing emotional pain: ethanol.
- propman 9y agoAnecdotal but I believe this happened to me...I took maximum daily dosage for 2 years and most likely other factors resulted in this, but I wouldn't be surprised if this did too. I used to feel awful about people's problems, depressing stories used to make me want to do anything to help, seeing homeless on the street near a fast food place made me often buy them a meal, and I used to care so much about friends' problems but I 90% stopped caring. Honestly can't say it's a bad thing either, I finally am focusing more on myself but it is a huge change in my life.
- greenyoda 9y agoYou may have been experiencing "compassion fatigue": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compassion_fatigue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compassion_fatigue "Compassion fatigue, also known as secondary traumatic stress (STS), is a condition characterized by a gradual lessening of compassion over time. It is common among individuals that work directly with trauma victims such as, therapists (paid and unpaid), nurses, teachers, psychologists, police officers, paramedics, animal welfare workers, health unit coordinators and anyone who helps out others..."
- brohoolio 9y agoDid the dosage cause a permanent shift in your behavior?
- propman 9y agoNot outwards behavior but things that used to seem like such a big deal became trivial. Again anecdotal so don't put any stock in what I'm saying, I just found this to be interesting
- ficklepickle 9y agoGet a liver enzyme test. It's very hard on the liver, especially if you consume alcohol at the same time. Acetaminophen/paracetamol is not as harmless as most people think. It has wrecked many-a-liver.
- arcticbull 9y agoIt's the #1 cause of liver failure in the United States. [1] [1] https://www.medpagetoday.com/psychiatry/depression/2233 https://www.medpagetoday.com/psychiatry/depression/2233
- DanBC 9y agoBut your link is talking about short term use - deliberate or accidental overdose. It's not talking about normal long term use. Paracetamol is commonly used in overdosing because people don't understand how dangerous an overdose is; they don't understand how painful a death from liver failure is; paracetamol is available off the shelf in large quantities; and many people have stocks of it in their homes. Indeed, your link suggests that long term use is not harmful: > But in an accompanying editorial, John G. O'Grady, M.D., of the Institute of Liver Studies at King's College Hospital in London cautioned that there's no need for panic, because acetaminophen-associated liver toxicity is uncommon, and the drug itself is not toxic. > "Measures to minimize acetaminophen hepatotoxicity are important but need to be considered in the context that the apparent scale of the problem is a reflection of the huge number of patients taking acetaminophen with good effects and in the absence of any adverse event," Dr. O'Grady wrote. > "Educational initiatives to highlight the range of preparations containing acetaminophen, together with reiteration of advice on maximum daily dosing, have potential benefits, especially with respect to unintentional overdosing," he added. And it says this: > The data suggest that consistent use of as little as 7.5 g/day of acetaminophen could lead to severe hepatic injury, Dr. Larson and colleagues wrote. That's a lot! The recommended dose on the box is 4 g per day - 4 doses of 1 g each, with 4 hours in between them.
- triangleman 9y agoNice istock photo there.
- gaius 9y agoThe same story without an ad-blocker-blocker http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/popular-painkiller-ingredient-acetaminophen-can-reduce-empathy-study-finds-a7026061.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/popular-painkiller...
- OscarTheGrinch 9y agoThanks! Time to build an ad-blocker-blocker-blocker.
- waterphone 9y agoTurn on the Adblock Warning Removal List and Anti-Adblock Killer in uBlock Origin.
- dorgo 9y agoThere is one. It's called: just disable javascript.
- brobinson 9y agouBlock Origin already has this. I don't see any ads on the article.
- jawns 9y agoThe article doesn't make clear whether the study participants were given acetaminophen to relieve pain (e.g. a headache), or whether they were simply given the drug regardless of whether they were currently experiencing pain. So I looked up the pharmacological procedures in the study itself, which confirms that it's the latter case. The drug was administered regardless of whether the subjects were experiencing any pain for which acetaminophen would be an appropriate treatment. I would think it's at least conceivable that the body reacts differently to acetaminophen when it's used to treat pain, versus when it's administered even if the subject is not in pain. And especially since most people take acetaminophen for some pain-relieving purpose, rather than for no purpose at all, I would think it's important to try to emulate those real-world conditions when designing studies like this (although clearly it's difficult to control for something as subjective as pain). Side note: I absolute hate when articles about scientific studies don't even name the study so you can look it up. In this case, the study appears to be titled "From painkiller to empathy killer: acetaminophen (paracetamol) reduces empathy for pain" and the full text is available here: https://academic.oup.com/scan/article/11/9/1345/2224135/From-painkiller-to-empathy-killer-acetaminophen https://academic.oup.com/scan/article/11/9/1345/2224135/From...
- guelo 9y agoMaybe you could hit study participants in the head with a stick.
- fossuser 9y agoI also remember reading that there was some evidence that acetaminophen (and possibly other NSAIDs) helped with anxiety [1] - the idea being that social pain and physical pain are similar. It seems like reducing empathy might be the same thing - a more general dulling of emotions. On a personal note I've found Aleve works really well (better than Tylenol) when I'm feeling anxious, but maybe that's just placebo. I originally read about the Tylenol affect after feeling surprisingly less anxious when I took Aleve and searching around. [1] https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/mind-guest-blog/tomorrows-anti-anxiety-drug-is-tylenol/ https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/mind-guest-blog/tomorro...
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- exabrial 9y agoWow, pretty crazy find. Seems like a decent sample size too. I hope someone tries to reproduce the results!
- pmiller2 9y agoI wonder if other pain relievers do the same. Has there been any work with aspirin, ibuprofen, or prescription pain relievers along these lines?
- debatem1 9y agoThis is exactly my question. We know that many painkillers work on the pain caused by heartbreak, for example. Does this effect have a similar root cause? If so, it would be reasonable to conclude that many painkillers would cause this as well. The advice in the article would therefore be at best useless.
- watertorock 9y agoAcetaminophen Hate the click bait headlines, totally degrading to a paper like Washington post that presumably wants to maintain respectability. But you won't believe what happens next!
- sctb 9y agoWe've updated the title from “This popular painkiller also kills kindness” to that of the linked study: https://academic.oup.com/scan/article/11/9/1345/2224135/From-painkiller-to-empathy-killer-acetaminophen https://academic.oup.com/scan/article/11/9/1345/2224135/From....
- newtem0 9y agoThe washington post is trash.
- murukesh_s 9y agoNowadays I never visit the actual article, just going through HN comments will often summarize the topic better.
- wjh_ 9y agoProbably not the best idea. While they do tend to summarise well, comments tend to be filled with opinion - generally a better idea to ensure you form your own, rather than rely on a potentially biased third party.
- aiyodev 9y agoMay 12, 2016
- tbabb 9y agoNo mention of effect size. N=200 is pretty small. Smells a bit like BS. Anyone have the original paper?
- itcrowd 9y agoYou're down voted but I agree. 200 participants split into A/B for yes/no drugs, 8 scenarios and 3 different tests makes the sample incredibly small.. would like to hear statistical arguments opposing my PoV
- hammock 9y agoPretty standard for this type of research
- tbabb 9y ago"Everybody does it" is not really a statement about its validity.
- ricardobeat 9y agoStraight from the paper: > we determined sample size based on previous research which indicated that a sample size of about 40 participants per cell provides sufficient power to detect a behavioral effect of acetaminophen (Durso et al., 2015). For Experiment 2, a power-analysis based on a power criterion of (1−β) = 0.80 and effect sizes obtained in Experiment 1 indicated that a mean cell size of n = 54 was sufficient to replicate significant findings
- taway_1212 9y agoI imagine military should be very interested in this.
- gaius 9y agoThe Infantry are already Tylenol's biggest fans...
- mtgx 9y agoSo if it numbs not just pain but your empathy feelings as well, could it also numb feelings like depression or anxiety? EDIT: After a quick search, the answer seems to be yes? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26357585 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26357585 http://time.com/3825042/tylenol-emotion-acetaminophen/ http://time.com/3825042/tylenol-emotion-acetaminophen/ https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/12/091222154742.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/12/091222154742.h... https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-superhuman-mind/201304/do-you-suffer-emotional-pain-or-anxiety-pop-tylenol https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-superhuman-mind/201...
- 55555 9y agoRelated: Opioids reduce feelings of loneliness.
- ficklepickle 9y agoI can attest to that. Please don't use them for this though. It can lead to a downward spiral, I went through that some years ago. Seek help, and keep seeking help. Mental health is neglected in our society, IMO.
- copperx 9y agoI don't think it's that neglected, but it's incredibly expensive even with a good insurance policy.
- floatingatoll 9y agoMods, this is a repost from (2016).
- egwynn 9y agoI’d be in favor of two changes to the HN title: 1. s/This popular painkiller/Acetaminophen/ 2. (2016)
- Ericson2314 9y agos/This popular painkiller/Acetaminophen, the active ingredient in Tylenol,/ I, for one, never studied chemistry.
- d8421l01vv4r 9y agoI find using brand names for drugs less-than useful in international contexts. Brand names differ between countries, generic names don't (except paracetamol/acetaminophen).
- WWKong 9y ago"GOP breakfast includes a bowl of Tylenol"
- sctb 9y agoPlease don't post such tedious, off-topic, flamebait here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- robert_tweed 9y agoEverywhere other than the US, it's far more commonly known as paracetamol. In much the same way that nobody calls aspirin "acetylsalicylic acid", paracetamol is the generic name, except in the US for some reason.
- dom0 9y agoFollow-up question: why does it seem like some drugs are packaged kinda like candy for the American market? (https://www.google.de/search?q=tylenol&tbm=isch https://www.google.de/search?q=tylenol&tbm=isch vs. http://www.verschnupft.com/wp-content/uploads/Paracetamol-Ratiopharm_500mg.jpg http://www.verschnupft.com/wp-content/uploads/Paracetamol-Ra...)
- atemerev 9y agoI suspect that this result extends to most painkillers. It was demonstrated before that emotional pain and physical pain are partially regulated by the same mechanisms, so painkillers work for emotional pain too (though less effective than specialized drugs) -- which will prevent sharing emotional pain from some situations, which can be reinterpreted as diminished empathy.
- alkonaut 9y agoI had never heard the name "Acetainophen", apparently it's the same as Paracetamol.
- Lanthanide 9y agoFrom wiki: "Both acetaminophen and paracetamol come from a chemical name for the compound: para-acetylaminophenol and para-acetylaminophenol." The former is the name used by the United States Adopted Name (USAN) while the latter is the (International Nonproprietary Name (INN) one.
- GunlogAlm 9y agoParacetamol is the far more common name. In the US and a handful of other countries they call it "acetaminophen", though.
- vilhelm_s 9y agoThere was also this paper from 2013, about acetaminophen relieving "existential dread". The experiemental setup induced subconscious anxiety by making the subjects watch David Lynch's short film "Rabbits", then measured it's effect on strictness when recommending fines for hockey rioters. The researchers concluded, "Despite the many questions that these findings raise, they do demonstrate that acetaminophen has more far-reaching psychological consequences than previously realized, and that a single pill can serve as an effective manipulation in the lab." https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/04/130416085431.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/04/130416085431.h... http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0956797612464786 http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0956797612464786
- dlbucci 9y agoIn regards to the second experiment, isn't that kind of an obvious result? You take a painkiller, so the white noise causes you less pain, so you think that other people in the study are in less pain, which makes you seem less empathetic?
- cbanek 9y agoI wonder if opiates (or other painkillers) have the same effect. Most of the opiate drugs, such as hydrocodone, are mixed up with acetaminophen anyway in pill form. For example, a norco 5/325 is 5 mg of hydrocodone and 325 mg of acetaminophen.
- vilhelm_s 9y agoI googled and found this article, which suggests they would. http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/09/dulling-pain-may-also-reduce-empathy http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/09/dulling-pain-may-also... Apparently, in this experiment they did not use actual opioid drugs but instead used a placebo protocol (to avoid side effects), but they did produce the empathy reduction effect. And this effect was cancelled out by giving the test subjects naltrexone, so it does seem to be dependent on the opioid receptors.
- Havoc 9y ago> About a quarter of all Americans take acetaminophen every week. Wow. That seems rather high.
- vilhelm_s 9y agoThe reference they give is http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/194572 http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/194572 . Apparently it's the most commonly taken drug, number 2 and 3 were ibuprofen and aspirin. To be precise, in a given week, 23% of Americans had taken Acetaminophen. (I guess the sentence is a bit ambiguous.)
- Havoc 9y ago>in a given week, 23% of Americans had taken Acetaminophen That's still wildly high though, no? So nearly a QUARTER of Americans are on that painkiller at any given time (give or take duration). Never mind A painkiller...that particular one??? The whole concept of ~25% painkiller usage just blows my mind. And that's from someone that used to take heavy grade stuff for a year straight. (Now I just take the occasional ibu for some DOMS).
- DanBC 9y ago5% of Americans aged 15 to 64 took an opioid pain killer last year. http://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/WDR2011/StatAnnex-consumption.pdf http://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/WDR2011/Sta...
- dlwdlw 9y agoCould this be broadened to say that those who have coping mechanisms for pain have less empathy for the pain of others? As an explanation why the well off seem to have less empathy for the less well off.