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Easiest Path to Riches on the Web? An Initial Coin Offering
- partycoder 9y agoExcept that soon, the proliferation of cryptocurrencies will reduce the value of such ICOs.
- ruytlm 9y agoAgreed; I'm yet to see any serious discussion of how fragmentation to various coins isn't going to cause headaches. It's like if we were to print different banknotes for different services; suddenly we have blue Advertising Dollars, red Server Time dollars, yellow Financial Transaction dollars, and none can be used for anything else. To me this looks like an arbitrary level of complication, the only true winner from which is whoever runs the exchanges.
- devoply 9y ago> made it easier than ever for entrepreneurs to raise large sums of money without dealing with the hassles of regulators, investor protections or accountants. Umm no easier than raising funds for any other venture, in fact probably more difficult and I would think a lot of that money is coming from people who were already made rich by other coin like bitcoin. Easy come, easy go, but enjoy the gravy train while you are riding it.
- abrkn 9y agoThere are programs that generate the tokens for you, templates for promotional websites, companies that specialize in shilling, pump groups that help for a cut. You don't have to do much but invent a name and write a nonsense "white paper" (pet supplies on the blockchain). Best of all, you can remain anonymous.
- nodesocket 9y agoCan you link to such programs, templates, companies? I'm interested to research and have a good chuckle.
- milkytron 9y agoHere's a decent way to start... http://launchaco.com http://launchaco.com
- sanswork 9y ago>in fact probably more difficult and I would think a lot of that money is coming from people who were already made rich by other coin like bitcoin. That's why it is easier. You have a bunch of gamblers who have gotten lucky on one bet thinking they are now master investors. They have seen a few ICOs pop so they are willing to take a punt on any that come through pretty much even if it makes no sense.
- to3m 9y agoI claim it can be +EV even when it's a punt. Suppose you make 3x on your first bet, as I did - and it's a long story why i settled for such a poor return ;) - you can then "invest" 2/3 of your winnings, and even if it all goes to nothing then you've still broken even. But in the current climate a 0% return seems, at least for now, unlikely.... (In the interests of even-handedness: Preston J Byrne, quoted in the article, is worth listening to, especially if you are by nature inclined to be a true believer when it comes to this kind of thing. Relevant thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14573875 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14573875)
- peculiar 9y agoWell, actually US is not the only country in the world. There are places with zero chance to get any VC funding. I have even seen a funny acceleration program that offers $300 (three hundred bucks) for 10% of a startup (and there was a huge list of requirements the company and founders should meet). That's ridiculous. ICOs open a window of opportunities in such places. That's a pity though it is discredited by been used for scams.
- nodesocket 9y agoI'm sorry but this is so absurd. They are doing the equivalent of printing their own monopoly money in the garage and then selling it for real currency... dollars.
- notadoc 9y ago"A fool and his money are soon parted" Sounds fitting, huh?
- devindotcom 9y agoAnd on the internet, a fool and his folly are soon united.
- jamespitts 9y agoMetaphors are not as useful as historical analogies or actual descriptions of what is going on. Basically, a new form of fast finance has emerged, connected with a blockchain technology which enables the financing mechanism as well as potential applications that are financed. It is not monopoly money as much as it is speculative vendor financing.
- hendzen 9y agoWe have "speculative vendor financing" - normally in the form of OTC stocks, i.e. pink sheets. This seems like an even less regulated way of trading pink sheets, except funded by a bunch of software people with a lot of disposable income instead of some mob guys in a boiler room in New Jersey.
- the_cat_kittles 9y agothese things are strike me as greater-fool schemes. everyone hops on thinking they are probably ahead of the curve, and most of them are suckers. what a funny game- the skill is knowing how many other people will go for it.
- taberiand 9y agoI think there are at least some people (e.g., money launderers) who will use a cryptocurrency even in the face of losing money, therefore it's not entirely a pyramid scheme.
- hendzen 9y agoWow. So people should treat it not as a pyramid scheme, but as a legitimate asset, because it can be used for money laundering! That is truly hilarious!
- taberiand 9y agoWell, if money laundering it legitimate to you...
- mschuster91 9y agoMoney laundering, in my opinion, is not only legitimate, but neccessary, given that e.g. European banking transactions end up via SWIFT or implants at the NSA headwuarters. In addition many governments try to move citizens to "electronic payment" (ranging from online banking to NFC credit cards). The reason is once again tracking, and as could be seen during the financial crisis it's easy to just confiscate money when it's just numbers in a mainframe vs actual piles of cash in my home safe.
- ruytlm 9y agoOn the flip side, your piles of cash are only valuable at the moment. Print enough new money, and your cash is worthless, at which point its value has been taken from you without any interaction with you.
- notadoc 9y agoDoes anyone think these cryptocoins will hold value during, in, and through the next recession?
- alyx 9y agoDepends on the recession type.
- notadoc 9y agoImagine a repeat of 2008, what do you think would happen in that scenario?
- nodesocket 9y agoI'm not sure actual economic events will have anything to do with a cryptocurrency crash. The price of bitcoin, ether really has nothing to do with overall economic prosperity. Also, I believe of lot of crypto currency is purchased in China as protection for them, and a truthfully a get rich scheme.
- notadoc 9y ago> The price of bitcoin, ether really has nothing to do with overall economic prosperity. You don't think the same economic policies that have driven all other asset values through the roof is also impacting cryptocurrency?
- zanny 9y agoThe next recession will not be caused by a loss of faith in cryptocurrencies, so probably. But the exchange rates will slip just as much as everything else in said recession because recessions are highlighted by a near uniform withdraw of capital from investment. On the flipside, btc usually goes up when gold goes up, and gold goes up in recessions. They might bounce back as an alternative store of value not dependent on the general economies functioning.
- notadoc 9y ago
- matt_wulfeck 9y agoThese crypto coin bubbles can't pop soon enough.
- soup10 9y agoThe problem is they will pop, and then come back. They are like a resilient strain of disease. Each time people lose faith in them they develop new ideas and arguments for why they are the future. They aren't the future, they are deeply flawed ponzi-schemes, this is obvious. But we better find out what the future is before they start converting the gullible masses to a currency that is less secure in many ways that is swept under the rug. People are getting hurt by being swept up in cryptocurrency mania; and its not going to end anytime soon. There is talk of China developing new digital currencies(or adopting bitcoin) for stronger population control. There are innovative things happening here, its not all bad, but some of it is clearly evil.
- viraptor 9y ago> Each time people lose faith in them they develop new ideas and arguments for why they are the future. You mean just like after the 1929 stock market crash we just improved stock trading? Or after dotcom crash we became more serious about evaluating usefulness of services? Or after various mortgage issues we introduced controls for known issues? I feel like it's similar to any other huge system. There are issues with it. We prevent some behaviours and provide incentives for others. We don't lose faith in stock market and burn it to the ground.
- Jabanga 9y ago>They aren't the future, they are deeply flawed ponzi-schemes, this is obvious. By definition, they are not ponzi schemes. None of your claims are obvious, and implying otherwise is disingenuous. >But we better find out what the future is before they start converting the gullible masses to a currency that is less secure in many ways that is swept under the rug. Ah yes the "gullible masses", and the wise men and women who know better. How about we respect other people as adults who have a right to buy whatever they want with their own money and stop trying to treat them like sheep that need to be protected from their own gullibility. Your presumptions of knowing what's best for them, to the point where you'd like them to be denied the option of buying them, are extremely condescending.
- hendzen 9y agoSomeone should start WebVanCoin.
- wmf 9y agoIt's funny you should mention Webvan. In 1999 grocery delivery was a hot market, then in 2002 it was completely and obviously stupid, now in 2017 it's hot again. Cryptocurrency is a bubble now, but will the world change such that it actually makes sense in 20 years?
- MachinShinn- 9y agoIts still obviously stupid. The difference this time is there is a new niche that places like Whole Foods serve. They're not in the 'food' business so much as the 'whole food / wellness' business. These people will pay a premium that warrants delivery.
- sanswork 9y agoI've been having groceries delivered from the internet pretty much continuously for the past 15 years or so across 3 countries and a half dozen services. What is stupid about grocery delivery?
- djrogers 9y ago> in 2002 it was completely and obviously stupid It was never that. Yes Webvan failed, but Peapod didn't. Grocery chains also started their own delivery services which are still around today, and the industry slowly grew from there. Judging an entire market by looking at the failure of one failed startup is not smart.
- piratebroadcast 9y agoAnyone have a resource on the technical aspect of this? Seems like these businesses create their own cryptocurrency? Or build it on top of Ether?
- feelix 9y agoYou can easily do it in an hour or two by copying and pasting some code off the ethereum site. They encourage it. I like to think of ethereum as a ponzi scheme which spawns ponzi schemes (some of which themselves are intending to be a new platform for generating currencies...) https://www.ethereum.org/token https://www.ethereum.org/token
- detaro 9y agoNot every questionable, bad or even fraudulent financial construct is a Ponzi scheme. Unless a coin has a clear promise of payout that the people organizing it would have to satisfy, it can't be a Ponzi scheme.
- ruytlm 9y agoI suspect they're not using Ponzi scheme literally, more as a shorthand for the kind of scheme that promises plenty, but doesn't actually do anything. See e.g: http://www.nytimes.com/1990/02/25/books/nothing-but-zzzz-best.html http://www.nytimes.com/1990/02/25/books/nothing-but-zzzz-bes...
- kaffeemitsahne 9y agoLuckily we already have a word for that kind of scheme, "scam".
- nathan_f77 9y agoWow, thanks for that link. That's actually very cool, and I can see why Ethereum is taking off.
- Jabanga 9y ago
- huckyaus 9y agoIf there's anyone qualified to write about the crypto bubble, it's surely a guy called Popper.
- sriram_sun 9y agoWould it make sense for companies like Amazon or Alibaba to print their own currencies when they are in the business of selling everything under the sun? Would they be saving on transaction costs? I believe most of the money that is ending up in Bitcoin exchanges is laundered in the first place. Also, there is a whole lot more that is getting laundered everyday than Bitcoin being mined. That would mean Bitcoin will keep going up in value. Gold should correspondingly fall.
- pmorici 9y ago"I believe most of the money that is ending up in Bitcoin exchanges is laundered in the first place." Do you have any evidence for that because I'd say that is almost certainly blatantly false.
- mathieuuu 9y agoI am amazed that in 2017, there is still people qualifying Bitcoin or Ethereum of ponzi schemes. Crypto currencies have a lot of problems (technical, economical, philosophical, ICO are insanes) but saying they are ponzi schemes is plain wrong. And it just takes 5 minutes of reading on Ponzi Schemes signs and basic knowledges of how those currencies work to understand why.
- RexetBlell 9y agoThey are as much a Ponzi scheme as gold (which has almost no practical use) and ugly paintings that cost millions http://www.therichest.com/luxury/most-expensive/10-ugly-pieces-of-art-you-wont-believe-sold-for-millions/ http://www.therichest.com/luxury/most-expensive/10-ugly-piec... If expensive ugly paintings are not a Ponzi scheme, then cryptocurrencies are not a Ponzi scheme.
- BoiledCabbage 9y agoGold isn't a "Ponzi scheme". Even if you believe that investing in gold makes no sense, and it's a useless metal with no practical purposes, and it's a bubble waiting to burst and so on, that still doesn't make it a Ponzi scheme. Even if all of those beliefs above were true, it still wouldn't be a Ponzi scheme. As someone else posted in here, Ponzi Scheme has a fairly specific definition which "Gold" doesn't meet.
- wc- 9y ago[Cryptocurrency] isn't a "Ponzi scheme". Even if you believe that investing in [Cryptocurrency] makes no sense, and it's a useless [tech] with no practical purposes, and it's a bubble waiting to burst and so on, that still doesn't make it a Ponzi scheme. Even if all of those beliefs above were true, it still wouldn't be a Ponzi scheme. As someone else posted in here, Ponzi Scheme has a fairly specific definition which "[Cryptocurrency]" doesn't meet.
- libertine 9y agoGold has a lot of practical uses.
- bluetwo 9y ago200 years ago in the U.S. regional banks printed their own currency. The constitution does not create a common US currency, although we have been operating as if it does. Will a non-nation state be able to generate enough credibility to run their own currency that lasts a lifetime? I don't know be I think it's interesting to watch. And if they do, it may force central banks into a corner by limiting their ability to print money (i.e., lowering the value of your currency by printing money will cause people to move their money to the alternative currency, leaving you with inflation).
- douche 9y agoThe British East India Company was able to do this; they issued their own currency at various times. I'm not sure we'll ever see a company with that kind of temporal power again, though.
- xyzzy_plugh 9y agoAmazon Coins? (I'm only half joking)
- douche 9y agoI would not terribly surprised... I already have an Amazon Chase credit card that gives me significantly more cash back for Amazon purchases. I don't think Amazon is planning on a standing army or navy yet, however
- 9y ago
- jamespitts 9y agoI would like to make an appeal to the YC community: please reach out and help guide those involved in this rapidly advancing phenomenon. There is a huge amount of instantly-deployable capital in Ethereum and Bitcoin, held by individuals now seeking ways to put it to work. Many technologists will naturally make use of this energy, but so will BS artists and people under the influence of hubris. I am making this appeal because it is irresponsible to stand by and watch so much financial energy be directed at projects without appropriate constraint. Many firms funded by ICOs (or soon to be) have qualified leaders and developers and are developing great ideas, but IMO many are also raising too much money for their own good. What may be needed to guide these rockets to their full potential are maturity, mentorship, and the careful application of jurisprudence and principles of accounting.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- afeezaziz 9y agoI agree with this sentiment. The sentiment on HN is that ICO promoters/startups are all scammer. My company, Pipeline Network is going to launch our ICO soon. We would be more than happy to get some guide/mentorship from the YC community.
- jamespitts 9y agoI hope that instead of slinging mud at ICOs, the YC community reaches out to firms like yours. Calling them all scams will not stop the next ICO from getting bigger. Note to blockchain-denialists: there are 10s of billions of capital, a deep enough pool for thousands of ICOs. Slinging mud will also not help make ICOs any safer, nor protect financial systems outside of blockchains from collateral damage should firms fail.
- influx 9y agoCui bono? In a world with ICO crowd funding, the roles of a VC firm like YC is greatly diminished. It's not surprising the buggy whip manufacturer is casting doubt on the dangers of the automobile.
- thedrake 9y agoWait until amazon offers its own coin...that is when the mainstream will happen and if these much less know are able to pull this valuation the legitimacy and hype will many x when amazon does it. They have already tested the waters with https://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html?docId=1001166401 https://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html?docId=1001166401
- ransom1538 9y agoI have a fetish for watching complicated court cases play through. What you realize is a judge in a courtroom has a lot of power. They can take your money, freedom or even kids. However, if I had few hundred thousand in Ethereum encrypted placed into a few random anonymous git hub repros, well, the government can't take it. It is truly yours. No one can take it. That must be horrifying proposition for (some) governments - the inability to control people.
- xyzzy_plugh 9y agoAnd if you go hide a few million bucks in cash in the middle of a desert, they can't take it either. The hard part has always been getting it out and not getting caught. Nothing is truly yours.
- ransom1538 9y agoYou can trade for goods or services with your coins. You cannot trade for anything with cash dug in the desert. Cash is confiscated daily by authorities.
- agrajag 9y agoIf I buy a house or a car with cryptocurrency that can be confiscated. If I live a lavish lifestyle while under a judgement I'm not paying, then the court can imprison me indefinitely under contempt of court. Courts have centuries of case law for how to deal with people that hide assets from judgements. They're not going to care whether your assets are in a shell company or a cryptocurrency.
- piaste 9y agoYou are correct, when it comes to protecting your assets from (minimally competent) authorities, cryptocurrencies aren't much better than a hole in the ground full of cash. Where they are much better than a hole in the ground is when it comes to moving your assets to a different jurisdiction. As long as you can physically get yourself from Somecountry to Othercountry, all your e-cash will be accessible in Othercountry regardless of what Somecountry may have to say about it. And even if Somecountry imprisons you, you can still hand over your e-cash to someone else with a single message. I can't think of any asset that offers that particular advantage.
- kim0 9y agoCan someone in the know shed some light on why does every project need its own currency?! Why isn't a standard coin like BTC or eth good enough?
- Canada 9y agoBecause then the project can create it for nothing and sell it.
- programmarchy 9y agoWhy does every company need its own stock certificates? It's a token representing ownership.
- peculiar 9y agoBecause everyone wants to own a casino, not just play there.
- thebiglebrewski 9y agoHow can one profit off of this?
- kbaker 9y ago1) Get a bunch of Eth. 2) Invest in the right ICO. Not the wrong one, where the value drops to zero.
- thebiglebrewski 9y agoI've bought some Ethereum. Why should I buy more though? Do you have a theory of future value for it?
- adbachman 9y agoSell it when it goes up, but make sure you decide to sell before everyone else decides to sell.
- thebiglebrewski 9y agoHahah nice.
- surrey-fringe 9y agoYou all get so angry when someone mentions a blockchain. It's strange.
- ashnyc 9y agoICO are the best thing that ever happened. This is no different then kickstarter.com started. People where saying the same things. People put up lot of BS project and they got funded, in time these kind of project will fail on there own. This is just the start, no government or bank would have supported such system. For once, the small guy can participate in this market. I would have loved to invest in amazon, facebook, etc when they where private. You had to have the connection and access .. here the little guy in columbia or Africa has the same access to such a deal
- ailideex 9y ago> I would have loved to invest in amazon, facebook, etc when they where private. I'm sure if you wen't to them then and said here is money plz give share they would have considered it. Everybody want's to have gotten into the big giants when they were small - but there are many small cap/penny stock companies you can invest in now ... yet people don't. There are even non listed share trading options. And the reason is because hindsight is 20/20 ... it takes experienced and diligent investors to make good investments that beat the market - it's exceptionally rare. ICOs are not like getting into Amazon/Facebook/etc early. It's like penny stocks or worse. Could it pay out big ? Sure ... why not. So can the lottery. But there is no enforcement on any of these things in the real world, no shareholder rights and no protections. > People put up lot of BS project and they got funded, in time these kind of project will fail on there own. People keep funding these BS projects and loosing their money though. Let's not pretend nobody is loosing, and I'm actually pretty sure with kick-starter garbage most of the time nobody is winning. > For once, the small guy can participate in this market. I'm not sure what market you think you were excluded from, but I doubt this was the case. > You had to have the connection and access .. here the little guy in columbia or Africa has the same access to such a deal ... this is just wrong.
- sharemywin 9y ago- try investing in a high flying startup as a non-accredited investor.
- 9y ago
- pikzen 9y ago>the inability to control people. What's horrifying is people thinking like that. We live in societies with rules, with laws that we have agreed upon, and are, for the most part, fair. These same laws and this same governement protects you, gives you at least some basic services. And you're advocating for not holding up your end of the bargain, and removing one big part of the punishment for not holding it up. To people advocating that, then I can only hope that since your money cannot be taken away, then more of your freedom will. For the good of all of us.
- ebcode 9y agoGovernments do not protect everyone, or provide basic services to everyone, equally. Also, unless you were there for the revolution, you didn't agree to the laws of the land where you happened to be born. As an anarchist, I don't find my relationship with my government to be one that I would enter into willingly if I were given the freedom not to. Instead, I live under the constant threat of state-sanctioned violence for any act of civil disobedience or political dissent on my part. > "For the good of all of us." Yeah, so who are you to decide what is good for everyone? That way lies tyranny, and for everyone but the tyrants, slavery. But really, you are advocating for less freedom for a specific group of people, so I suppose that what you have put forth is a pro-slavery argument. I pray that you reconsider your position.
- delazeur 9y ago> Governments do not protect everyone, or provide basic services to everyone, equally. That's true, but why is your response is to check out of society rather than to push for constructive changes? Why should I respect your choice to take your ball and go home?
- ebcode 9y agoWell, first off, I don't think that advocating for anarchy/no government is "checking out of society." It's not like I'm saying "f* society, let's all be hermits!" I'm saying, "let's stop using state-sanctioned violence to oppress people into obedience." Secondly, your idea of constructive change and my idea of constructive change are going to be different. I'm not taking my ball and going home; I'm taking my ball and saying, "I just don't want to play dodgeball with you guys. I want to juggle. If you want to juggle too, bring your balls over to the park and let's juggle together."
- dearthVaderr 9y agoThe seems to be a dearth of proper English in this thread, and poor grammar. If you're advocating for proponents of a technology, please proofread your posts to earn a modicum of credibility if you've got the time.
- tempestn 9y ago> The seems to be a dearth of proper English in this thread, and poor grammar. I almost want to upvote for irony.
- realworldview 9y agoSo this is like buying food vouchers that I can redeem at a store that hasn't yet been built, if indeed it has been given planning permission and even if it does eventually get built, I have no idea how the service and product will taste. And I can't then report any irregularities. Ponzi? No. Unregulated gambling? Of course. Sign me up!
- Cakez0r 9y agoIt's worse than that. In some cases, the coins literally serve no purpose. To use your metaphor, it's like buying StoreBucks for a store that hasn't been built yet, with no promise that you'll be able to redeem your StoreBucks for anything at all. For example, a project called Status (http://status.im/ http://status.im/) recently held an ICO in which people were tripping over themselves to buy Status's coins. It actually backed up the Ethereum network for several hours with pending transactions and they raised over $100 million USD worth of Ethereum (at the time). See if you can find on their website a description of what the coins are actually used for. I can't!
- richardknop 9y agoYes I mean that is just insane. There is no reason for Status.im to have their own token. It's just a money grab. Basically a 50 million funding round without having to give up any equity in your startup! Way better than VC.
- Jabanga 9y agoThe explanation of the token's use is right here: https://status.im/whitepaper.pdf https://status.im/whitepaper.pdf
- sjg007 9y agoThey might be interpreted gift cards in that sense.
- ge96 9y agoWhat do you use Ethereum for? I bought some but realized I couldn't easily use it as buying an Amazon gift card with Bitcoin. Something about permanent storage and security (regarding Ethereum usage).
- atemerev 9y agoOK, when NYT writes about something, the hype is officially over. Selling time!
- sleepychu 9y agoLast month, a small team of computer engineers in Lithuania raised $14 million in 45 minutes by selling a coin, known as Mysterium, that is intended to give access to an encrypted online data service that is still being built. There has to be more background to this? Why would they ever bother building the service if they have the 14M in cash?
- adbachman 9y agoBecause unless they've sold their ethereum, they don't have $14mil or equivalent CHF, they've got ehthereum worth that much. It's imaginary money, still, or I'm sure they would cash out.
- dmurray 9y agoEthereum is exchangable for USD (or EUR, which is the currency in Lithuania). Calling it imaginary money isn't helpful here. I'm sure they have cashed out at least some of that. As for why they would take investors' money (not really investors according to the SEC) and actually build their product? Maybe they value keeping their promises, or their dream is to build this product and the $14mm is just a means to that end.
- adbachman 9y ago> Calling it imaginary money isn't helpful here. "Imaginary" in the sense that it's unrealized in the currency in which it's described, exchangeable only if there are enough people willing to pay the market rate at the moment. "Unrealized" may be better than "imaginary", that's a fair criticism. So it wasn't $14m USD, it was ETH whose market value at the time of calculating was potentially $14m. To pay employees or themselves I'd also bet they cashed out a slice. I'd love to see a tracker for % of ETH raised at ICO and subsequently sold off. I wouldn't be surprised if the recent flash crash[1] was an ICO selloff. [1] http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-06-21/ethereum-flash-crashes-after-status-ico-clogs-network http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-06-21/ethereum-flash-cras...
- realworldview 9y ago
- equityloan 9y agoSo these ICOs are currently legal? In that case, is it legal to have an ICO for shares in an existing private company? I am imagining the following scenario: Someone has some vested shares in a startup. They send proof of their shares to some administrators of this hypothetical service. The shares are then listed on the website. Someone browses the website and decides that they like the company, and they want to invest $10k. They make a request on the site, and then transfer $10k worth of Bitcoins to a specific address. The Bitcoins are then transferred to the person with the shares. When the company has an acquisition or an IPO, the person then buys $X worth of bitcoins, and sends them to an address, where they are distributed among the investors. This would be highly illegal, no? Something that would have to operate on the darknet? So then why are people getting away with ICOs? P.S. As you might be able to tell from my username, I've been trying to figure out a way to sell some of my shares in a private company. (They're a unicorn in Silicon Valley.) You could call it an options contract. Or you could call it a loan, that would be repaid if/when the company has an exit. I've tried using a secondary market service, but the company blocked the sale. P.P.S. This is completely unrelated to any of the above, but feel free to send me $20k worth of Bitcoins or Ethereum. I could even send you a link to my LinkedIn profile. But of course, this would just be $20k with no strings attached. But who knows, you might receive some bitcoins in the future.
- Jabanga 9y agoAccording to some experts in US securities law, if the token being sold gets its value due to its usefulness in an application (e.g. it acts as a currency), it is, in their opinion, legal. If it gets its value from a promise of it providing the holder with a contractual claim on a share of the assets or profits of an enterprise, then it's potentially a security and thus potentially illegal. See the Coinbase securities law framework for more details. I don't see how your scheme falls into either category. I advise checking with a lawyer before doing anything.
- wc- 9y agoIt is important to clarify that buying one of these tokens does not result in you owning a 'share' or a percentage of the company that issued them. Some lawyers are using this lack of ownership as a critical part of their argument that tokens are not a security and therefore ICO's are legal. It's complicated and a very gray area right now. In response to this gray-ness, ICO's are now requiring investors to declare that they are not from the USA and some are geoblocking USA residents. Obviously this means nothing, if a US citizen wants to buy they still will, but it is an interesting case of Cover Your Ass From the SEC taken by the ICO companies.
- GreaterFool 9y agoIt's been a running joke for a while that the easiest way to be a blockchain consultant is to charge $50k to say "you don't need blockchain for that". Not it seems the 2017 version is to charge 1M to say "you don't need a special token for that". ICOs are not the micro-investing many would like to see and the use of a special tokens distinct from ETH is rather contrived. That said, if people are willing to throw money at it, so be it. But the amounts are quite frankly insane.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- carapace 9y agoAhahahahhaha.. Oh wait, you're serious. AHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHA ahhahahha ha. Seriously though, "government" is the attempt to manage human wickedness. It's a "not quite possible solution to a not quite solvable problem." Gandhi said (I'm paraphrasing) that we cannot make a system so good that it relieves the people in it from the effort and duty to be good. Good neighbors, good citizens, good people. In the Tao Te Ching we read that laws only arise once the people have turned away from "the Way" (goodness, virtue). I agree that we must constrain our worst behaviour in these historical times, but the urge to control others is a symptom of the very illness it seeks to treat.
- dang 9y ago> Ahahahahhaha.. Oh wait, you're serious. AHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHA ahhahahha ha This sort of uncivil gunk will get you banned here, so please don't do it again. We detached this comment from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14634638 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14634638 and marked it off-topic.
- carapace 9y agoSorry about that. It was meant humorously but I can understand that it wasn't a good contribution. I respect greatly the work you do here and I apologize for being "part of the problem".
- dang 9y agoOnly a minuscule part and you more than made up for it :) (Also, I'm afraid I was a bit grouchy when I posted that.)
- carapace 9y agoCheers, man, well met. :) I'll admit, I was a bit grouchy too. Thinking about it now, you weren't wrong to call me on it. The tone of HN is important and I'm capable of being civil while disagreeing. (And I can always vent spleen on twitter. heh) So thank you. You do great work and like I said, I really appreciate it.
- quantdev 9y agoWith regards to cryptocurrencies, which the standard HN anti-crypto groupthink is bashing in full swing, let me just point out that most bashings I've seen on here are US-consumer-centric and don't consider the needs of countries with oppressive governments that aim to control the wealth and labor of their citizens. In these countries, cyrptocurrencies allow the movement of wealth to your family overseas, allow the store of wealth in the face of 30% inflation (Venezuela, Zimbabwe, etc.), and allow privacy and economic freedom. If your central bank wants to lower interest rates so that yields are even more negative, you can take yourself out of that system in which you have no vote or control. If you oppressive ruler wants to track every transaction and stop funding to political opponents, you can take yourself out of that system and do so if you wish. Yes, it's not easy and not for everyone, but people in these countries go through enormous risk and effort to accomplish economic freedom.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- CaseInsensitive 9y agoThese guys took the money and ran. Absolute radio silence since the ico. Not to mention nobody is going to run an exit node since being paid to do so would mean you would be on the hook for illegal traffic, unlike TOR. It's a nice idea but completely impractical, even with a dev team that didn't disappear after raising money.
- nikolay 9y agoWe'll look at this a couple of years from now and will laugh at the yet another example how greed makes people ignore history!