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Really glad to see people like this getting called out. Dealing with sexual harassment/assault from someone in power is the last thing you want as a female foun

Really glad to see people like this getting called out. Dealing with sexual harassment/assault from someone in power is the last thing you want as a female founder - you have a million other things you need to do to keep your startup afloat, and you don't want to rock the boat if it affects your likelihood of being funded. Feels like the valley is slowly but surely changing. And yes, I recognize that this hasn't been "proven", but really what's the chance than there's a shadowy cabal of women who start companies in order to target individual VCs. These women have little to gain from this and everything to lose. Occams razor is that he's at the very least doing something that's inappropriate.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
munchbunny 9y ago
The sad part to me is that this is just the part of the iceberg that is visible above the surface. I've heard stories from several female founders/VC's (not naming names or specific details to protect anonymity) who have experienced repeated unwelcome advances even after it was made clear they had a significant other. That's not as egregious as groping (one of the accusations in this article), but that's still sexual harassment by the letter of the law and slimy as hell every other way. Another common theme I noticed is when the man in question stays in the gray area where individual incidents aren't clearly over the line and might not qualify legally as sexual harassment, but in context and in aggregate it's clear why a woman would feel very uncomfortable. How do you confront something like that when they can just question your perception of reality? In all but one case, the women decided against confrontation because the man was in a much more powerful position (such as a general partner of a VC fund), and the women were afraid of retribution and risking killing their careers by taking a principled stand. They all wished they could do more, but decided they didn't want to be martyrs. That's a bad position to be in. I think it's damning of the industry that these women have accepted silence on the matter as part of the burden of being a woman and pursuing this line of work. Granted I'm looking at this with N < 10, but everyone I've talked to shares the sentiment that it's a pattern, not a coincidence. I'm hopeful that everything going on around Uber will move the needle enough that more people are willing to come forward.
- erikpukinskis 9y ago
  > repeated unwelcome advances even after it was made clear they had a significant other Repeated unwelcome advances are not OK even if the person is single.
  - biocomputation 9y ago
    I am the very close relative of two women in tech. One of my relatives was on the receiving end of repeated, unwanted advances over the last several months, none of which were reported to HR because she didn't want to destroy her career at the company. Last weekend she received an unsolicited, nearly naked photo from the same male co-worker. Needless to say, he is no longer at the company. This is sad on two counts. First, it's sad that my relative felt she couldn't report because she thought it would harm her career. It sickens me to say this, but maybe she was right. Maybe it would have harmed her career. Second, and I've seen this before, she had to endure further harassment until he really escalated so she could report something significant enough that she felt it wouldn't harm her credibility. Though we're discussing this through the lens of the tech industry, the most horrifying thing of all is that this isn't even a problem that's unique to tech. It's pervasive. Still.
    - braveo 9y ago
      I mean, there's a line. If he hadn't crossed it yet, then he hadn't done anything that needed or deserved to be fired for. That's why the line is there. I have to wonder if the woman in question made it clear she didn't appreciate the attention? It could've just been an idiot who took her silence as implicit approval, playing coy, etc, causing him to escalate to naked pictures. And I'm not saying it's her fault, but communication goes both ways. And like I said, he may have just been an idiot.
      - DonHopkins 9y ago
        So you're saying idiots can't sexually harass people. Is that your excuse?
novia 9y ago
Really glad to see people like this getting called out. This story was posted yesterday and it got flagged. (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14613890 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14613890) When I saw that, I thought the Hacker News community did not care. I am glad to see supportive comments like yours in this new thread.
- choudanu4 9y ago
  I was under the impression that the previous discussion got flagged because it was behind a paywall. Don't despair, I think we do care. :)
- choudanu4 9y ago
  I was under the impression that the previous discussion got flagged because it was behind a paywall. Don't despair, I think we do care. :)
anothercomment 9y ago
The accusations can be true, and at the same time it seems possible that the VC didn't take advantage of his "position of power", but genuinely believed the women liked him for his looks and personality, not because they needed his money.
- irpapakons 9y ago
  What makes you think that the women liked him, or that he thought they liked him? They were pitching to him, that's a business transaction. He himself said he leveraged a position of power in exchange for sexual gain, and the linked article mentions groping and harassment with unwanted sexual propositions. Now the question is, what motivates you to seek out a relatively far-fetched justification for this man's possible innocence?
  - ddoolin 9y ago
    Perhaps they see a trend of knee-jerk reactions to these kinds of cases where the defendant is presumed guilty before the entire story or evidence is out, or before any sort of due process occurs. I can see why someone would at least try, even weakly, to counteract this type of community pressure. I realize this isn't a legal matter at this point but I'm speaking of the principle(s) on which those features are based. It almost always seems to become a case of "you're either with us or you're against us," so let's try to steer clear of that.
    - mejari 9y ago
      The "defendant" has already admitted to the accusations and stepped down.
      - ddoolin 9y ago
        In this case, I agree in the sense it defeats the point I made above, but for various reasons others may continue to push back on that pressure on principal rather than on the facts of the matter.
  - 9y ago
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
avaer 9y ago
> And yes, I recognize that this hasn't been "proven", but really what's the chance [...] Occams razor is that he's at the very least doing something that's inappropriate. Occam's razor is a tool to winnow down proven scientific theories, not to bypass the need for evidence. I'd rather vest power in the courts than outrage media.
- coolgeek 9y ago
  Occam's razor is not in any way either now or historically restricted to scientific theories - proven or otherwise.
jerengie 9y ago
Although I agree with you that if it's definitely like the presumed victims say I just want to remember that often people are called out for base motives. Since I live in germany I remember the case of Kachelmann, who due to false claims of rape lost everything from his job to his freedom of a half years worth and much of his friends and family - because of a lie. So for me this means that I wait for the judges to decide. Before he's found guilty it's nothing more than gossip to me, although this is a rather unpopular opinion I guess.
- jmcgough 9y ago
  He essentially confirmed the accusations and took an indefinite leave of absence from Binary Capital yesterday (https://techcrunch.com/2017/06/23/vc-justin-caldbeck-is-taking-an-indefinite-leave-of-absence-apologizes-to-the-women-he-made-feel-uncomfortable/ https://techcrunch.com/2017/06/23/vc-justin-caldbeck-is-taki...)
  - jerengie 9y ago
    Thanks for the clarification in this case :) Since he at least didn't deny the accusations this fosters the believes in his guilt. For this case it's fine then. However, I tried to make a more general statement in my post before, since the zeitgeist tends to prejudgements nowadays, which also was a thing in the middle ages and does more harm than good.
gist 9y ago
> I recognize that this hasn't been "proven", but really what's the chance than there's a shadowy cabal of women who start companies in order to target individual VCs. These women have little to gain from this and everything to lose. Occams razor is that he's at the very least doing something that's inappropriate. Seriously? I mean then why do we need courts, judges and juries if it's that simple. Details matter and both sides of the story. [1] And what do you mean by 'at the very least doing something that's inappropriate'?. By what and by whose standards? [1] What if you were charged with the crime of assault (non sexual in this example) and nobody had seen what had happened prior to you throwing (what they thought) was the first punch without any knowledge of the provocation prior to that point (as only one quick example).

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

munchbunny 9y ago

The sad part to me is that this is just the part of the iceberg that is visible above the surface. I've heard stories from several female founders/VC's (not naming names or specific details to protect anonymity) who have experienced repeated unwelcome advances even after it was made clear they had a significant other. That's not as egregious as groping (one of the accusations in this article), but that's still sexual harassment by the letter of the law and slimy as hell every other way. Another common theme I noticed is when the man in question stays in the gray area where individual incidents aren't clearly over the line and might not qualify legally as sexual harassment, but in context and in aggregate it's clear why a woman would feel very uncomfortable. How do you confront something like that when they can just question your perception of reality? In all but one case, the women decided against confrontation because the man was in a much more powerful position (such as a general partner of a VC fund), and the women were afraid of retribution and risking killing their careers by taking a principled stand. They all wished they could do more, but decided they didn't want to be martyrs. That's a bad position to be in. I think it's damning of the industry that these women have accepted silence on the matter as part of the burden of being a woman and pursuing this line of work. Granted I'm looking at this with N < 10, but everyone I've talked to shares the sentiment that it's a pattern, not a coincidence. I'm hopeful that everything going on around Uber will move the needle enough that more people are willing to come forward.

erikpukinskis 9y ago
> repeated unwelcome advances even after it was made clear they had a significant other Repeated unwelcome advances are not OK even if the person is single.
- biocomputation 9y ago
  I am the very close relative of two women in tech. One of my relatives was on the receiving end of repeated, unwanted advances over the last several months, none of which were reported to HR because she didn't want to destroy her career at the company. Last weekend she received an unsolicited, nearly naked photo from the same male co-worker. Needless to say, he is no longer at the company. This is sad on two counts. First, it's sad that my relative felt she couldn't report because she thought it would harm her career. It sickens me to say this, but maybe she was right. Maybe it would have harmed her career. Second, and I've seen this before, she had to endure further harassment until he really escalated so she could report something significant enough that she felt it wouldn't harm her credibility. Though we're discussing this through the lens of the tech industry, the most horrifying thing of all is that this isn't even a problem that's unique to tech. It's pervasive. Still.
  - braveo 9y ago
    I mean, there's a line. If he hadn't crossed it yet, then he hadn't done anything that needed or deserved to be fired for. That's why the line is there. I have to wonder if the woman in question made it clear she didn't appreciate the attention? It could've just been an idiot who took her silence as implicit approval, playing coy, etc, causing him to escalate to naked pictures. And I'm not saying it's her fault, but communication goes both ways. And like I said, he may have just been an idiot.
    - DonHopkins 9y ago
      So you're saying idiots can't sexually harass people. Is that your excuse?

novia 9y ago

Really glad to see people like this getting called out. This story was posted yesterday and it got flagged. (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14613890 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14613890) When I saw that, I thought the Hacker News community did not care. I am glad to see supportive comments like yours in this new thread.

choudanu4 9y ago
I was under the impression that the previous discussion got flagged because it was behind a paywall. Don't despair, I think we do care. :)
choudanu4 9y ago
I was under the impression that the previous discussion got flagged because it was behind a paywall. Don't despair, I think we do care. :)

anothercomment 9y ago

The accusations can be true, and at the same time it seems possible that the VC didn't take advantage of his "position of power", but genuinely believed the women liked him for his looks and personality, not because they needed his money.

irpapakons 9y ago
What makes you think that the women liked him, or that he thought they liked him? They were pitching to him, that's a business transaction. He himself said he leveraged a position of power in exchange for sexual gain, and the linked article mentions groping and harassment with unwanted sexual propositions. Now the question is, what motivates you to seek out a relatively far-fetched justification for this man's possible innocence?
- ddoolin 9y ago
  Perhaps they see a trend of knee-jerk reactions to these kinds of cases where the defendant is presumed guilty before the entire story or evidence is out, or before any sort of due process occurs. I can see why someone would at least try, even weakly, to counteract this type of community pressure. I realize this isn't a legal matter at this point but I'm speaking of the principle(s) on which those features are based. It almost always seems to become a case of "you're either with us or you're against us," so let's try to steer clear of that.
  - mejari 9y ago
    The "defendant" has already admitted to the accusations and stepped down.
    - ddoolin 9y ago
      In this case, I agree in the sense it defeats the point I made above, but for various reasons others may continue to push back on that pressure on principal rather than on the facts of the matter.
- 9y ago

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

avaer 9y ago

> And yes, I recognize that this hasn't been "proven", but really what's the chance [...] Occams razor is that he's at the very least doing something that's inappropriate. Occam's razor is a tool to winnow down proven scientific theories, not to bypass the need for evidence. I'd rather vest power in the courts than outrage media.

coolgeek 9y ago
Occam's razor is not in any way either now or historically restricted to scientific theories - proven or otherwise.

jerengie 9y ago

Although I agree with you that if it's definitely like the presumed victims say I just want to remember that often people are called out for base motives. Since I live in germany I remember the case of Kachelmann, who due to false claims of rape lost everything from his job to his freedom of a half years worth and much of his friends and family - because of a lie. So for me this means that I wait for the judges to decide. Before he's found guilty it's nothing more than gossip to me, although this is a rather unpopular opinion I guess.

jmcgough 9y ago
He essentially confirmed the accusations and took an indefinite leave of absence from Binary Capital yesterday (https://techcrunch.com/2017/06/23/vc-justin-caldbeck-is-taking-an-indefinite-leave-of-absence-apologizes-to-the-women-he-made-feel-uncomfortable/ https://techcrunch.com/2017/06/23/vc-justin-caldbeck-is-taki...)
- jerengie 9y ago
  Thanks for the clarification in this case :) Since he at least didn't deny the accusations this fosters the believes in his guilt. For this case it's fine then. However, I tried to make a more general statement in my post before, since the zeitgeist tends to prejudgements nowadays, which also was a thing in the middle ages and does more harm than good.

gist 9y ago

> I recognize that this hasn't been "proven", but really what's the chance than there's a shadowy cabal of women who start companies in order to target individual VCs. These women have little to gain from this and everything to lose. Occams razor is that he's at the very least doing something that's inappropriate. Seriously? I mean then why do we need courts, judges and juries if it's that simple. Details matter and both sides of the story. [1] And what do you mean by 'at the very least doing something that's inappropriate'?. By what and by whose standards? [1] What if you were charged with the crime of assault (non sexual in this example) and nobody had seen what had happened prior to you throwing (what they thought) was the first punch without any knowledge of the provocation prior to that point (as only one quick example).