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Think Twice Before Ordering Coffee or Tea on a Plane
- LukaAl 9y agoUmmm... Pasteurization used to kill deadly bacteria in our food is done heating the substance to sanitize at 73-75 degree Celsius for around 15 seconds. For brewing a good coffee or tea you need a much higher temperature and I guess they don't immediately cool it down. So, go ahead, drink your coffee or tea on the plane. Yes, it is disgusting, but it is a matter of taste, not of bacterial infection.
- res0nat0r 9y agoMost flights I've been on are serving water in cups from bottled water the attendants are opening as they go.
- pc86 9y agoFrom the second paragraph of the article, emphasis mine: "Flight attendants will not drink hot water on the plane." I've only ever seen bottled water for cold drinks as well, but I seriously doubt they're boiling bottles of Desani up front.
- mattkrause 9y agoAlso isn't the water....boiled for coffee and tea? Perhaps not enough to totally sterilize it, but it must help some.
- rdoherty 9y agoI'm 99% sure that any boiling will kill nearly all germs in water. I don't have facts on hand, but I do remember that once you get above ~160F, nearly all germs are dead. So boiling water will definitely kill everything.
- chc 9y agoAccording to the CDC, at elevations above 6,500 feet, water needs to be boiled for three minutes to kill E. coli.
- Bartweiss 9y agoThat's a pressure issue, though - low air pressure drops boiling temperature, so your water doesn't actually get as hot. Most commercial aircraft are pressurized to around 11psi, which is an elevation of ~3,500 feet.
- falsedan 9y agoIt will kill the pathogens which cause vomiting and diarrhea: the article mentions e. coli, which the CDC[0] recommend 1 minute at boiling temperature to deactivate. I'd skip that and stop as soon as the water boiled. Note that sterilization requires higher temperatures for longer periods, but it's not required for food products consumed by the general public. Some bacteria may survive the boiling process, but your stomach acid + immune system will destroy them. [0]: https://www.cdc.gov/healthywater/drinking/private/wells/disease/e_coli.html https://www.cdc.gov/healthywater/drinking/private/wells/dise...
- rdoherty 9y agoGood point! That's why posting on HN is so great, even if you're 99.9% correct, someone will always reply to tell you precisely how you are 0.1% wrong . Thanks for the link, I tried to find official sources online and had trouble.
- falsedan 9y agoTo be clear, I think your original comment is just fabulous and you're 100% right. I'm just curious since I know that controlling the level of E. coli contamination in milk is important from first-hand work on dairy farms, plus I know that pasteurization heats (not boils) the milk, and not for the ridiculous durations I see when searching online for "making water safe to drink".
- throwaway7645 9y agoI think to kill all bacteria you need to boil for several minutes. A typical tea kettle turns off immediately after reaching the boiling point. Coffee is a similar story I guess.
- mattkrause 9y agoRight...to actually sterilize something, you have to hold it well above boiling. Autoclaves run at high pressure so they can get liquids up to 121C. However, you don't need sterile food; you just need to ensure that there are sufficiently few bacteria that your body can deal with the rest. I would suspect boiling water (to make the coffee) and holding it hot (for serving) helps quite a bit with this, but I was wondering if anyone had some actual numbers.
- Bartweiss 9y agoI guess the question is exactly what's in the water. Sterilizing river water calls for one minute at a rolling boil, which you won't get from a kettle. But something like beef, with a much more restricted threat, can be done down around 160F, and bringing your kettle to a boil should easily get you a few minutes above that line. Not all tea brewings will, but I'm guessing "boil it and throw in tea" is more common on airplanes than a delicate, 165F green tea production. So... it'd be nice to hear from a microbiologist about the specifics on this one. Regulators seem concerned, but that's about drinking it as tap water, which I wouldn't do.
- Afton 9y agoThat's the point of the article. Drinking water is from bottled water. Hot beverages are from the 'tap' water, and the requirements on the tap water are not as strict as the drinking water. I assume that this is a just alarmist journalism, since water for tea/coffee is heated to boiling, and all the taps in the bathrooms say some version of 'non-potable'.
- Jedd 9y ago> I assume that this is a just alarmist journalism, since water for tea/coffee is heated to boiling ... Boiling at elevation is different to boiling at sea level. To kill Cryptosporidium (etc) you need a rolling boil for 1 minute (no one does this) ... and that's at sea level. At > 2km up you need to run that for > 3 minutes (and absolutely no one does that). And all this is before I even get started on the woefully uncivilised idea of using 100C water for green tea.
- splawn 9y agoBoiling time is a function of air pressure, not strictly elevation. Of course if the airplanes you fly on are not pressurized then you are correct.
- Jedd 9y agoYou're absolutely correct. I should have been clearer. When I mentioned the >2km 'elevation' I meant in an airplane, which typically cruises around 10km ... but are pressurised, as you note. Unfortunately they're pressured to be around 2.4km (effective). Some newer planes will pressurise to around 1.8km but these are uncommon. In any case, water boils at '2.4km effective' at around 92C ... and therein lies the problem.
- farnsworth 9y agoI never know what to take away from these "germs are everywhere" scare stories. I've been drinking coffee on planes for years. Maybe I've been exposed to something, but I've never been sick. Maybe it's making my immune system stronger. I'll make reasonable choices but I'm not going to be paranoid or even think twice about something like coffee on an airplane.
- Bartweiss 9y agoI was initially concerned, expecting a "heavy metals" story. Those are also common, but they're a bit less overhyped, and do predictable, cumulative harm. A vague threat of E. Coli just isn't as disturbing to me.
- bspn 9y agoThe water is boiled to thermo-nuclear levels so I'd be shocked if anything nasty could survive it - certainly the flavor can't! I'm not sure if it's because there's more content available these days, but the "germs are everywhere" movement has far greater prominence than when I grew up. We'd spend all summer barefoot, put our hands in places they shouldn't and then in our mouths, eat food that we almost certainly shouldn't have and yet we somehow survived. There's some things that we absolutely shouldn't consume, but airplane tea and coffee are pretty low down that list.
- lazerpants 9y agoIt's potentially relevant to people who have compromised immune systems or who are on immunosuppressants. Depending on when you grew up it is likely that those two groups are more prevalent, or at least are more likely to fly than before (think HIV and autoimmune disorders). But for most people the "germs are everywhere" thing is pretty overblown.
- officialjunk 9y agoboiling water kills most of the organisms, but the toxins they excreted will still be present and can cause problems.
- virtuexru 9y agoNo wonder my immune system is so strong; I love airplane coffee.
- mindcrime 9y agoIt's strange... I've always assumed that airplane coffee is the lowest of the low-bid, el-cheapo, nobody-else-would-buy-this coffee that you could find. But yet, I've always enjoyed the coffee on airplanes, and to a surprising degree. I think every time I've ever gotten coffee on an airplane, my thought after the first sip was "OMG, that is SO good". But, that could just be because I'm usually dead-tired, caffeine deprived, and jonesing for coffee like a crack addict craving their next hit, by the time I get on the plane. shrug
- rwc 9y agoDamn near every flight I see the pilot and copilot enjoy a cup of coffee, and yet we don't hear about the waves of moribund pilots unable to perform their duties....
- benhoyt 9y agoWhat kind of flights do you take that you get to see the pilot in this post 9/11 world? (I agree with the sentiment though.)
- Godel_unicode 9y agoIf you're paying attention you'll notice that, typically after cabin beverage service ends, the flight attendants will make and deliver coffee to the cockpit. What happens to that coffee once it's behind the door is, of course, purely speculation.
- Yellow_Boat 9y agoPossibly non-US ones. Europe is much more relaxed.
- jsjohnst 9y agoI see the pilot (or co-pilot) during at least 50% of the flights I take in the US over two hours in flight time. If you've noticed a FA blocking the aisle to the galley with a drink cart and standing posted at attention watching the passengers attentively, that's why. The cockpit door is rarely open more than 15-30 seconds. If either of the cockpit crew actually leaves the cockpit (say to use the restroom), then a FA must take their place and relock the door. This scenario requires a minimum of two FAs, one to watch the passengers / block the aisle, the other to fill-in in the cockpit.
- theDoug 9y agoAsked two flight attendants I know, neither agree with this. But hey, more coffee for me.
- vinayan3 9y agoTaking a flight can contribute to dehydration because the air in the cabin is dry and low humidity. Drinking coffee and tea doesn't help.
- ceejayoz 9y agoThat urban legend has been long debunked. http://www.abc.net.au/health/talkinghealth/factbuster/stories/2014/02/27/3951831.htm http://www.abc.net.au/health/talkinghealth/factbuster/storie...
- Godel_unicode 9y agoThis is a commonly belief with no basis in actual science; see this answer from a Mayo clinic dietician. http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition-and-healthy-eating/expert-answers/caffeinated-drinks/faq-20057965 http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition-and-he...
- jobu 9y ago"According to a 2004 EPA sample of 158 planes, 13 percent contained coliform. Two of the airplanes were found to have dangerous E.coli in the water." That is kinda gross, but realistically all that bacteria would be killed by heating the water. More of a concern is that is the same tap water in the bathroom for washing hands. Last flight I took I noticed there was a Purell dispenser in the bathroom next to the sink and I wondered why that was necessary given there was soap and water.
- Navarr 9y agoSome people prefer sanitizer as opposed to soap and water? shrug
- ada1981 9y agoSome people prefer free sanitizer to booze.
- dragon_greens 9y agoSimply heating does not kill all bacteria magically. That would require boiling for some time and I doubt that happens in-flight.
- joerickard 9y agoAlso, 'boiling' at the cabin pressure is not quite normal boiling.
- jcranmer 9y agoThe safe temperature for killing bacteria is about 140°F or 60°C. To get water to boil at that low a temperature requires about ⅕ atmospheric pressure, or roughly the atmospheric pressure outside the aircraft.
- elif 9y agoyea wilderness survival says full boil for at least 3 minutes, more in higher altitude. While shopping for an on-demand hot water tap, I couldn't find a single one that even went up to boiling temperature, so my hunch is that airplanes don't even boil for a second.
- projectramo 9y agoAlso, all coffee and (especially) tea drinkers know that the coffee or tea has to be really hot to be enjoyable. But you can't distribute weaponized fluids when your entire world is literally being rocked. So they hand out lukewarm tea or coffee. Yes it is safe but not fit for human consumption. Looks like they saved us from e.coli as well by giving us that tepid stuff.
- Semaphor 9y agoOnly been flying with Emirates recently, but their coffee was always hot
- davidw 9y agoI try to stick to hard alcohol but will make due with wine or beer. In wine there is truth, in beer friendship, in water... bacteria.
- jpm_sd 9y agoIf you've ever had coffee or tea on a plane, you probably already know that the water usually tastes terrible anyway. So, germs or no germs, stick to cold drinks. Like gin and tonic.
- farnsworth 9y agoOr tomato juice: http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-engber-tomato-juice-airplanes-20160911-snap-story.html http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-engber-tomato-jui...
- scandox 9y agoThat's my philosophy. The Quinine will also help suppress any malaria one might catch due to humid conditions in the rear cabin toilets. Slice of lemon for a Vitamin-C immune system boost. The mild sedative of alcohol to drown out the screaming void of my mind left idle without access to the internet.
- Eerie 9y ago>The mild sedative of alcohol to drown out the screaming void of my mind left idle without access to the internet. Consider doing something with your mind...
- copperx 9y agoThere's nothing as pleasurable as reading a book on a plane, as there's not much else to distract you. That's changing, though.
- malnourish 9y agoI find it unlikely the tonic you get on an airplane will have quinine.
- nradov 9y agoStick to drinks that don't stain. You never know when turbulence or a clumsy seatmate will spill a drink on your lap.
- jdc0589 9y agoI embrace all chances to strengthen my immune system. challenge accepted.
- rm_-rf_slash 9y agoThey cook the shit out of everything now cause everybody’s afraid of food poisoning! Hey, where’s your sense of adventure? Take a fucking chance will you? You know how many people die in this country from food poisoning every year? 9000... that’s all; it’s a minor risk! Take a fucking chance... bunch of goddamn pussies! Besides, what do you think you have an immune system for? It’s for killing germs! But it needs practice... it needs germs to practice on. So listen! If you kill all the germs around you, and live a completely sterile life, then when germs do come along, you’re not gonna be prepared. And never mind ordinary germs, what are you gonna do when some super virus comes along that turns your vital organs into liquid shit? I’ll tell you what you’re gonna do... you’re gonna get sick, you’re gonna die, and you’re gonna deserve it cause you’re fucking weak and you got a fucking weak immune system! -George Carlin
- heisenbit 9y agoOne really has to draw the hat to Business Insider pushing surprising insights: Long haul has more bacteria than short haul. I always thought bacteria would die off over time. /s There is however a good chance coffee or tea messes with your sense of time so moderation when flying can be important. Especially when taking into account the beverages consumed of the ever increasing leg of the flight in the terminal.
- 725686 9y agoHypercleanliness may be making us sick [2013]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/hypercleanliness-may-be-making-us-sick/2013/03/25/9e6d4764-84e9-11e2-999e-5f8e0410cb9d_story.html?utm_term=.d85b0756c125 https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/hyper...
- Mz 9y agoMore proof that absolutely everything makes us sick. /s
- pasbesoin 9y agoI take a can of V8, if they have it. A bit of nutrition and elctrolytes. If the water is a concern, then I guess it'll be a can of mineral water to go with it, instead of "tap".
- k_sze 9y agoI don't understand. Is that something that a Brita-like filter can't fix?
- smsm42 9y agoI hate it when articles say "research found X in Y", without stating how much X there was and whether or not it is above normal level and is dangerous. It's California prop 65 story all over again. Bacteria are amazingly versatile and resilient, one can find _some_ of them practically everywhere, so finding some in an environment that is not specifically and thoroughly sterilized is no wonder. The question is how many of them and how dangerous that is to a common person. The article provides no information about it, and therefore is useless.