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My POV: 1) You can keep your job. Just always build things on the side. It keeps you coding for play and not just for work. 2) Try to sell the things you buil

My POV: 1) You can keep your job. Just always build things on the side. It keeps you coding for play and not just for work. 2) Try to sell the things you build. You don't need to be fully polished on day one. In fact, you shouldn't be and can't be because you need real customers to really understand their needs. 3) you can find the numbers online, but my saas project Cronitor had just $500mrr after seven months. You need patience and to adjust your work factor to match the available outputs. By letting it coast a bit while it picked up momentum we prevented burnout. When it started to grow faster we could pour some attention in and level up the product. 4) grow it while you work your day job. This is easy at first and grows harder. Having a partner is important here. Alternative: a business where a little downtime is not a big deal. 5) when it gets stressful, know your commitments. Your day job gets first bite and when you can't do that anymore you know it's time to move on and do it full time. Most importantly the tldr is: quit your job after you've replaced most of your salary. And before you quit enjoy the incremental income.

fizixer 9y ago
One thing I noticed while doing a 40 hour a week software job recently (I'm not working now) is that your ability to work in the evenings and weekends depends on how much cognitive load you go through during those 40 hours. I've had jobs where the load is moderate, but in this recent one, the employer wanted to extract work from every hour of the 40 hour perior. I was so exhausted, that I couldn't do anything in the evenings, would spend Saturday in a state of haze, and on Sunday finally be able to think straight. But then on Sunday you barely catch up with what you were doing last Sunday. So your progress practically comes to grinding halt.
- jaggederest 9y ago
  This is the beginning of burnout. Soon, you'll stop being able to think straight even into Monday. Other things in your life will fall to the wayside or disappear out of neglect. Monday will turn into Tuesday, Tuesday into Wednesday. You'll wonder why you even bother to show up. Eventually, your employer will fire you for someone younger and cheaper, and you'll realize that you have no ability to maintain enough software development effort on your own to demonstrate to potential employers that you can do the work. And even if you could, it's a sham, because you can't. You'll find that you end up being able to work ten, maybe twenty hours a week if you're having an especially good week. Your work won't be any worse, for quality, you just simply won't be able to force yourself to do it any more than that. So, it's worth addressing that early. I'm not sure why the mantra of HN is that "You just have weekend and side projects and stay up till 3 am while still making that 9am meeting and everything is great". Sure, that works for a while, until you hit your limits and your life falls apart. There's no road back from there. Take it from me, you can truly excel, and nobody cares unless you can work 40, 50, or 60 hours a week. To PG's point from a while ago, "Nobody is willing to pay double for twice the work" - neither is anyone willing to pay half the rate for half the work.
  - sqldba 9y ago
    I'm not sure what solution you're suggesting. Can you please rephrase?
    - jaggederest 9y ago
      I am suggesting that, if the environment you work in leaves you with no energy at the end of the day, you need to either change it or leave. (Not that you should use that free energy for programming. Use it to build your life, not software.)
  - watwut 9y ago
    Parent is not working 60 hours a week. He is working 40, but he does not slack around, so he is tired after that.
    - jaggederest 9y ago
      I don't think that being exhausted at the end of the day should be accepted, or considered normal. Sure, everyone has bad days. What happens if you're working to your utmost, absolutely everything you've got has to go into the job, and you hit a rough patch? A cold, a breakup, God forbid a death in the family. You have to build that into your routine. You're not going to be a superhero every day, so you need to spend some of your time managing for that, setting things up in such a way that when you have a bad day, you can compensate for it, rather than falling apart. If you're putting out more than 90% of your 'best day' effort every day, you're sitting in a very precarious place. You need to be proactive about resting and rehabilitating yourself.
      - eeZah7Ux 9y ago
        > I don't think that being exhausted at the end of the day should be accepted, or considered normal. Indeed. Being physically exhausted can be healthy in most cases but mentally exhausted is completely different. You don't recover from it with a good sleep.
- sqldba 9y ago
  I know how you feel. I'm currently technically doing a 37.5 hour week - but it FEELS like a LOT more and it's killing me. A lot of those hours are at odd times and I seem to work more and then take it up in time in lieu but it's entirely recovery time not doing-things-time. Try explaining to your boss, "We need more staff because although I consistently meet all targets I'm just working TOO hard". I get gas lighted when I do so. They insinuate I'm doing something wrong and need to take more breaks. Uh yeah but then the work doesn't get done, and day by day it builds up, and everyone is clamouring for it, and then you make it seem like I'm at fault again? I started keeping an Excel spreadsheet of what I do every day just to see how much time I "waste". It turns out I'm doing 6-20 different things a day. Which is what I've been telling them, the load of constantly switching between so many different demands on attention and doing stuff "which should only take a minute" but can turn into hours spread out over days - all the time goes. I'm extremely sad every day. I'm definitely depressed. But the pay is good and it pays my mortgage. So I feel very trapped. And yeah when I get home I do nothing. I used to do stuff and blog but now I'm just too tired. All day every day I'm working and making decisions and stressing out - I have no capability to function outside of hours. I can't even make dinner so my partner does it. I find it hard to decide on even simple things and if anything goes wrong I'll break down into tears.
  - baudehlo 9y ago
    I hope writing that down helped. Because that is not sustainable. I tell developers that I interview that I don't want them working long hours because it leads to bad code. Go home. I want you to have a life and one you enjoy.
  - wolco 9y ago
    Let the work pile up. Who cares if they insinuate you are doing something wrong. Don't take it personally. Resourcing issues are not something you should be worried about. I wouldn't worry about them replacing you if they don't understand what you do either.
  - mythrwy 9y ago
    You bring up an often overlooked point. The friction of switching tasks. Some people (non-technical managers especially) don't understand the price. They think "oh, I'll just have them jump on this for 15 minutes, then that for half an hour, then the other until lunch". Wrong. You don't get 15 minutes + half an hour + whatever until lunch. You can take 30% + off the top for the switching. This holds true in non-technical fields as well. The ideal workday is doing just one or two things. That's where a person gets the most return on effort.
- iliis 9y ago
  This isn't normal? ... f*ck. What kind of software job leaves you with enough mental energy at the end of the day to let you work and code on your own projects? (Serious question, I feel like it's either work or hobby for me!)
  - Grustaf 9y ago
    Most I would say, definitely so in Northern Europe. We all have side projects.
    - iliis 9y ago
      But how? After about 6 hours of work my brain is mush!
      - DanWaterworth 9y ago
        You're not alone: https://www.johndcook.com/blog/2013/02/04/four-hours-of-concentration/ https://www.johndcook.com/blog/2013/02/04/four-hours-of-conc...
  - eeZah7Ux 9y ago
    No, it's not normal at all across the world and especially throughout the last century.
- hkjgkjy 9y ago
  What I personally found is that the days when I go straight home, have some food and then get coding, I get nothing done at home. Instead I feel stressed and it's no fun. Not a good way. When I instead pass the gym on the way home and work my body hard for an hour it works much better. Then I go home hungry like a wolf and devour a meal, and I feel more inspired for my projects than I did during the "regular" work day. My conclusion is that sitting life isn't how we evolved - and when I fix my body-use deficiency I unlock all that potential.
ryandrake 9y ago
Nice, but many employers lay IP claim to everything you do, even on your non-work time, and also forbid working for anyone else. Mine is one of them. Can anyone actually name a tech employer that has a written "moonlighting-friendly" policy?
- encoderer 9y ago
  Some are very restrictive. Google famously so. Many others cannot afford to care if you are meeting your obligations and not competing with them or taking advantage of the situation. If you think you're building something you want funding for then you should quit first, but that's not really what I was talking about.
- hkjgkjy 9y ago
  I don't think this is legal anywhere in Europe (is it?). I've also read that it's illegal in California, USA. In what regions is it allowed?
  - stonith 9y ago
    Standard at pretty much every company in Australia. Generally impossible to get a complete exemption, but you can often carve out exceptions. When I was at Cisco it was 100% of anything made at any time, other places have been slightly less encompassing.
- uiri 9y ago
  If it is on non-work time, without using any company resources, then they will have a hell of a time proving that they own it. Microsoft, surprisingly, seems to have a rather friendly written moon-lighting policy, excluding situations where you sit on the board of directors of a for-profit company. The main stipulation is to avoid competing with Microsoft, having a conflict of interest, or using any confidential/proprietary/secret information (including what the employee in question and their colleagues are working on). Google's policy is very open source friendly but they want to own it (e.g. you add Google copyright notices) rather than spend lawyer time determining whether or not it is safe for Google to disclaim ownership.
- 9y ago
stefek99 9y ago
I'm always full of respect to people who break the law - it takes a lot of courage. So far - 10+ different employment contracts - every single one explicitly forbid working on the side. Bonus question - how do you do this with 2 young kids?

fizixer 9y ago

One thing I noticed while doing a 40 hour a week software job recently (I'm not working now) is that your ability to work in the evenings and weekends depends on how much cognitive load you go through during those 40 hours. I've had jobs where the load is moderate, but in this recent one, the employer wanted to extract work from every hour of the 40 hour perior. I was so exhausted, that I couldn't do anything in the evenings, would spend Saturday in a state of haze, and on Sunday finally be able to think straight. But then on Sunday you barely catch up with what you were doing last Sunday. So your progress practically comes to grinding halt.

jaggederest 9y ago
This is the beginning of burnout. Soon, you'll stop being able to think straight even into Monday. Other things in your life will fall to the wayside or disappear out of neglect. Monday will turn into Tuesday, Tuesday into Wednesday. You'll wonder why you even bother to show up. Eventually, your employer will fire you for someone younger and cheaper, and you'll realize that you have no ability to maintain enough software development effort on your own to demonstrate to potential employers that you can do the work. And even if you could, it's a sham, because you can't. You'll find that you end up being able to work ten, maybe twenty hours a week if you're having an especially good week. Your work won't be any worse, for quality, you just simply won't be able to force yourself to do it any more than that. So, it's worth addressing that early. I'm not sure why the mantra of HN is that "You just have weekend and side projects and stay up till 3 am while still making that 9am meeting and everything is great". Sure, that works for a while, until you hit your limits and your life falls apart. There's no road back from there. Take it from me, you can truly excel, and nobody cares unless you can work 40, 50, or 60 hours a week. To PG's point from a while ago, "Nobody is willing to pay double for twice the work" - neither is anyone willing to pay half the rate for half the work.
- sqldba 9y ago
  I'm not sure what solution you're suggesting. Can you please rephrase?
  - jaggederest 9y ago
    I am suggesting that, if the environment you work in leaves you with no energy at the end of the day, you need to either change it or leave. (Not that you should use that free energy for programming. Use it to build your life, not software.)
- watwut 9y ago
  Parent is not working 60 hours a week. He is working 40, but he does not slack around, so he is tired after that.
  - jaggederest 9y ago
    I don't think that being exhausted at the end of the day should be accepted, or considered normal. Sure, everyone has bad days. What happens if you're working to your utmost, absolutely everything you've got has to go into the job, and you hit a rough patch? A cold, a breakup, God forbid a death in the family. You have to build that into your routine. You're not going to be a superhero every day, so you need to spend some of your time managing for that, setting things up in such a way that when you have a bad day, you can compensate for it, rather than falling apart. If you're putting out more than 90% of your 'best day' effort every day, you're sitting in a very precarious place. You need to be proactive about resting and rehabilitating yourself.
    - eeZah7Ux 9y ago
      > I don't think that being exhausted at the end of the day should be accepted, or considered normal. Indeed. Being physically exhausted can be healthy in most cases but mentally exhausted is completely different. You don't recover from it with a good sleep.
sqldba 9y ago
I know how you feel. I'm currently technically doing a 37.5 hour week - but it FEELS like a LOT more and it's killing me. A lot of those hours are at odd times and I seem to work more and then take it up in time in lieu but it's entirely recovery time not doing-things-time. Try explaining to your boss, "We need more staff because although I consistently meet all targets I'm just working TOO hard". I get gas lighted when I do so. They insinuate I'm doing something wrong and need to take more breaks. Uh yeah but then the work doesn't get done, and day by day it builds up, and everyone is clamouring for it, and then you make it seem like I'm at fault again? I started keeping an Excel spreadsheet of what I do every day just to see how much time I "waste". It turns out I'm doing 6-20 different things a day. Which is what I've been telling them, the load of constantly switching between so many different demands on attention and doing stuff "which should only take a minute" but can turn into hours spread out over days - all the time goes. I'm extremely sad every day. I'm definitely depressed. But the pay is good and it pays my mortgage. So I feel very trapped. And yeah when I get home I do nothing. I used to do stuff and blog but now I'm just too tired. All day every day I'm working and making decisions and stressing out - I have no capability to function outside of hours. I can't even make dinner so my partner does it. I find it hard to decide on even simple things and if anything goes wrong I'll break down into tears.
- baudehlo 9y ago
  I hope writing that down helped. Because that is not sustainable. I tell developers that I interview that I don't want them working long hours because it leads to bad code. Go home. I want you to have a life and one you enjoy.
- wolco 9y ago
  Let the work pile up. Who cares if they insinuate you are doing something wrong. Don't take it personally. Resourcing issues are not something you should be worried about. I wouldn't worry about them replacing you if they don't understand what you do either.
- mythrwy 9y ago
  You bring up an often overlooked point. The friction of switching tasks. Some people (non-technical managers especially) don't understand the price. They think "oh, I'll just have them jump on this for 15 minutes, then that for half an hour, then the other until lunch". Wrong. You don't get 15 minutes + half an hour + whatever until lunch. You can take 30% + off the top for the switching. This holds true in non-technical fields as well. The ideal workday is doing just one or two things. That's where a person gets the most return on effort.
iliis 9y ago
This isn't normal? ... f*ck. What kind of software job leaves you with enough mental energy at the end of the day to let you work and code on your own projects? (Serious question, I feel like it's either work or hobby for me!)
- Grustaf 9y ago
  Most I would say, definitely so in Northern Europe. We all have side projects.
  - iliis 9y ago
    But how? After about 6 hours of work my brain is mush!
    - DanWaterworth 9y ago
      You're not alone: https://www.johndcook.com/blog/2013/02/04/four-hours-of-concentration/ https://www.johndcook.com/blog/2013/02/04/four-hours-of-conc...
- eeZah7Ux 9y ago
  No, it's not normal at all across the world and especially throughout the last century.
hkjgkjy 9y ago
What I personally found is that the days when I go straight home, have some food and then get coding, I get nothing done at home. Instead I feel stressed and it's no fun. Not a good way. When I instead pass the gym on the way home and work my body hard for an hour it works much better. Then I go home hungry like a wolf and devour a meal, and I feel more inspired for my projects than I did during the "regular" work day. My conclusion is that sitting life isn't how we evolved - and when I fix my body-use deficiency I unlock all that potential.

ryandrake 9y ago

Nice, but many employers lay IP claim to everything you do, even on your non-work time, and also forbid working for anyone else. Mine is one of them. Can anyone actually name a tech employer that has a written "moonlighting-friendly" policy?

encoderer 9y ago
Some are very restrictive. Google famously so. Many others cannot afford to care if you are meeting your obligations and not competing with them or taking advantage of the situation. If you think you're building something you want funding for then you should quit first, but that's not really what I was talking about.
hkjgkjy 9y ago
I don't think this is legal anywhere in Europe (is it?). I've also read that it's illegal in California, USA. In what regions is it allowed?
- stonith 9y ago
  Standard at pretty much every company in Australia. Generally impossible to get a complete exemption, but you can often carve out exceptions. When I was at Cisco it was 100% of anything made at any time, other places have been slightly less encompassing.
uiri 9y ago
If it is on non-work time, without using any company resources, then they will have a hell of a time proving that they own it. Microsoft, surprisingly, seems to have a rather friendly written moon-lighting policy, excluding situations where you sit on the board of directors of a for-profit company. The main stipulation is to avoid competing with Microsoft, having a conflict of interest, or using any confidential/proprietary/secret information (including what the employee in question and their colleagues are working on). Google's policy is very open source friendly but they want to own it (e.g. you add Google copyright notices) rather than spend lawyer time determining whether or not it is safe for Google to disclaim ownership.
9y ago

stefek99 9y ago

I'm always full of respect to people who break the law - it takes a lot of courage. So far - 10+ different employment contracts - every single one explicitly forbid working on the side. Bonus question - how do you do this with 2 young kids?