44 ms·

Automattic is closing its San Francisco office as most employees work remotely

533 points by nkjoep 9y ago

winteriscoming 9y ago
Looking at that picture, it looks like some kind of backroom place in some store where employees gather to have lunch.
mrweasel 9y ago
If you look at the pictures I can't say I'm surprised. It doesn't look like a nice place to work. Two long desk, concrete floor, it looks very temporary.
- artursapek 9y ago
  I agree. Is that an airplane hanger?
- ryan-allen 9y ago
  I think it has more to do with the fact that remote work is discretionary.
- ajdlinux 9y ago
  If my employer weren't providing me with a proper monitor, as appears to be the case in these pictures, then I wouldn't be coming into the office either. (Actually, if my employer weren't providing me with a proper monitor, I'd be refusing to work on the grounds of the occupational health and safety risks of working primarily from a laptop for an extended period of time.)
  - curiousGambler 9y ago
    hehe my monitor is totally a reason I go into the office
  - foooo 9y ago
    > occupational health and safety risks of working primarily from a laptop for an extended period of time This is news to me, can you explain a little more why using a monitor is better than working primarily on a laptop?
    - bryanlarsen 9y ago
      It's not the lack of monitor, it's the fact that the monitor and keyboard are inseparable. If one is well-placed, the other isn't. You can fix this with either an external monitor or with a laptop stand and external keyboard.
      - mgkimsal 9y ago
        maybe i'm addicted to something I shouldn't be, but I much much much prefer laptop/keyboard/screen setup to external monitor/keyboard setup. I use an external monitor from time to time, but I'm too mobile to have that be a "default". With the laptop setup, I have consistent experience wherever I'm at. That said, I'm typically reclining (feet up on desk, leaning back, sitting in easy chair, etc) for most of my laptop time, and perhaps the experience is different from just have it on a desk most of the time?
        morinted 9y ago
        Posture (neck angle) and arm/wrist placement are really hard to get right in the situations you describe. I saw a physiotherapist at one point and the best advice I got was to get someone to take a photo of you in your "usual" position. You can analyze that yourself or bring it to your family doctor at your next appointment if you are curious.
    - ajdlinux 9y ago
      Laptop use and poor posture go hand in hand. An external keyboard can also work as it allows you to move the laptop display to a better position, but if you're going to do that you might as well go all the way and get a decent monitor too. First result I found with Google: http://education.qld.gov.au/health/pdfs/healthsafety/laptopuse.pdf http://education.qld.gov.au/health/pdfs/healthsafety/laptopu...
  - mrweasel 9y ago
    My employer is legally required to supply me with an external monitor, keyboard and mouse and height adjustable desk and chair. If I worked from home, they would also be responsible for ensuring that I have these things, and use them. This is precisely as you say because it's a health and safety risk to work on a laptop for extended periods of time.
    - ajdlinux 9y ago
      I get aches/pain and eventually headaches if I use a laptop with poor posture for too long.
  - ohjeez 9y ago
    I'm a freelancer who works at home, but I bought my own monitor a long time ago. As well as the chair, keyboard, and other peripherals I wanted. Actually I got the monitor during a time I was an employee. But I knew that such gigs don't last forever and I sure didn't want to cope with packing it up and sending it back.
  - TheCoreh 9y ago
    Automattic does provide monitors for all employees. In fact, they will arrange a session with an ergonomics consultant upon hiring you to set up a proper home office, as well as give you an allowance to buy a proper desk, chair, keyboard, etc. At the San Francisco office, there's a table with cinema display monitors you can plug your laptop to, they're just out of frame on this picture. I'm 100% sure the people on this photo are not using the external monitors because they don't want to. Some people prefer a consistent workflow everywhere (be it at home, the office, Starbucks or at the beach) and you can't quite get that with an external monitor. Source: Worked at Automattic
    - ajdlinux 9y ago
      Well, that's good to hear! I'm surprised by how happy people seem to be using a laptop monitor, but at least it's their choice.
      - jasonlotito 9y ago
        I'm surprised as well, though I see that trend where I work as well. People who have a monitor sitting on their desk, but they never use it. They only use their laptop. For myself, I love desktop space.
        ghaff 9y ago
        I've changed over time for some reason. I have a nice dual monitor, mechanical keyboard setup in my office at home. But I really got into the habit of working on my laptop--probably because of a lot of travel. These days, I'm more likely to just work on my laptop at home and not even in the office. At work, I have an external monitor and keyboard I could use but I never do.
      - rpeden 9y ago
        I tend to work on multiple large monitors most of the time. But thinking back on it, some of the most productive programming time I've ever had happened on a netbook with a 10 inch screen. For some reason, having limited workspace made it much easier to stay focused and avoid distractions. Maybe because it was impossible to have my attention drawn away by the HN tab open on my second monitor. :) Attention and focus are a bit different for everyone, though. I could imagine many people feeling unbearably cramped if they were working on a small screen all the time.
- rmccue 9y ago
  The space is actually divided into two sections: the downstairs area is open, and designed to be flexible (for company meetups and such). The upstairs section has a lounge-type area with meeting booths and working tables, designed for the 20 or so people who actually use it regularly. There are some images of the upstairs area at https://automattic.com/lounge/ https://automattic.com/lounge/
- nilkn 9y ago
  I think I agree with you, even after reading all the other responses to your comment. The long desks are what kill it for me. That's one seating arrangement that I just don't think I can get on board with unless forced. I worked like that for some projects in college and I always felt so distracted, and I really disliked what seemed like a complete lack of privacy and isolation.
kyriakos 9y ago
doesn't strike me like a nice office. looks like a co-working space for startups. add more people and it will look like a hackathon than a company workspace.
- Cthulhu_ 9y ago
  That may just be the intent. I see that appear in a lot of hip modern offices, with parts modeled after Starbucks / coffee shops because that's the environment a certain type of person prefers to work.
- Viper007Bond 9y ago
  The downstairs is designed to be flexible to allow for parties or other events. Upstairs has meeting rooms and things.
Mozai 9y ago
So they bought an oversized office space, provisioned it like a warehouse, in a location that is horribly expensive to live near or get to. Are they surprised employees would rather not go there?
- akerro 9y ago
  I would go there. No... I would move in there.
  - Cthulhu_ 9y ago
    Do the bigger companies offer living spaces alongside their campuses yet? I mean having good apartments in 10 minute walking distance would be a huge perk in SF.
    - angersock 9y ago
      Does the phrase "company town" ring any bells? This is a baaaaad idea.
      - rtx 9y ago
        Not when everything is going well. Grew up in one, it's better than any socialism and communism.
        Crespyl 9y ago
        There are a lot of bad ideas that work great "as long as everything goes well". Unfortunately, everything does not always go well, and some ideas are better at handling that than others.
        amyjess 9y ago
        The biggest problem with company towns was that they paid employees in company scrip instead of money. IIRC, that's illegal now under modern labor laws. The second biggest problem was that companies used their company towns to force their social agendas on their employees. George Pullman would spy on employees' homes and firevict anyone living a lifestyle he didn't approve of. Tenant protections and anti-discrimination laws can take care of that (but we do need to strengthen our laws first... they're not quite there yet).
carroccio 9y ago
What type of work can one do without double monitors and a mechanical keyboard?
- wolfgke 9y ago
  Mechanical keyboards make annoying noise that will disturb other people working there.
  - kyriakos 9y ago
    at least a monitor though..
    - wolfgke 9y ago
      I like the saying: "One can recognize experienced programmers/users that next to their second monitor there is a third one." :-)
  - nerdponx 9y ago
    Not all of them.
  - froindt 9y ago
    Man, it's a good thing nobody else is working there! /s
  - mrob 9y ago
    Buckling springs are always noisy (you can reduce but not eliminate the noise by putting vibration damping materials inside the springs). "Clicky" switches like Cherry MX Blues are always noisy. Other key switches are much quieter, and most of the noise comes from operator error. You're not supposed to press them all the way down like a membrane switch. The operating point of mechanical key switches is near the middle of the travel. If you press too hard they'll bottom out and make a lot more noise, as well as tiring your fingers more. If you're prone to doing this by accident you can fit soft o-rings around the keycap stem to cushion the end of the stroke.
TokenDiversity 9y ago
I'm sick of working in open spaces. If you cannot give me a cubicle, let me work at home. There are countless researches clearly saying that open spaces are bad for productivity yet for some reason they always win. And it's easy to see why, you only have to throw buzzwords like collaboration, team-work, open ... and done.
- pacomerh 9y ago
  Yeah agree, I guess it's just more cost effective to define an open space. At some point in time cubicles gained a bad rep also.
- restalis 9y ago
  What I dislike most about a cubicle is the lack of natural light. (Open space doesn't necessarily mean that natural light is available, I know, but a cubicle makes it even less likely.) I am all for productivity but the cubicle setup feels like going to an extreme for the sake of the last few available percents worth of concentration improvement by stepping over parts of our inherent nature. I am willing to tolerate that only for limited periods if I absolutely need that productivity boost, I am not however considering that good for me or anyone else for the normal daily work regime.
alaskamiller 9y ago
Had a party at the WordPress office a few years back and it's a great space. There's a lounge, kitchen, the bathrooms are nice, some room for bikes, and the rest of the space is setup to be multi-use. There's a big stage area and the corners are furnished to be pretty cozy. Of my past work places--death star cube farms in old silicon valley to tiny rooms in sweltering Berkeley summers to shiny live/work lofts to giant sprawling disneyland like campus to noisy hipster coffee shops--that WordPress office would be up there in terms of a good place to work at. The real story is the upward trend that if you give an inch, your employees will take a foot. If you offer telecommute, workers will not show up. I've been freelancing and telecommuting the past five years. I've built my workstyle around chat bubbles, slack channels, video calls, and emails whether 2PM or 2AM. I've built my lifestyle around that. As in I work around my life. Things just... get done without a direct measure of productivity anymore. Sitting somewhere from 9 to 5 is like watching TV from the 2000's, ordering Netflix DVDs when we live in the 2010's with streaming Netflix. And as one disappear, so does another and another. When you look around and realize no one else is there anymore it just becomes a ghost town while the virtual water cooler becomes more and more vibrant. No ones goes to the office anymore, it's too lonely.
- devoply 9y ago
  > if you give an inch, your employees will take a foot. Employers have been eating up to 10 hours (2 hours per day) of unpaid commute time of employees for ages. Is it then really surprising that no one wants to waste time coming to work. If that time was paid, if commute time was paid, then maybe you would consider it. But it's a very simple economic calculation. It's like why am I paying for that time. I don't have to, so I won't. That 10 hours is 20% extra salary that is not paid. And if your argument is that you could live closer, then the counter argument is that employers should have their offices in affordable areas where any employee can afford to easily live because rent is cheap. Not in the middle of downtown because that's what their peers or customers expect.
  - del82 9y ago
    It's interesting to view commute time as the employer's time rather than employee's time, and therefore as time that should be compensated. I'd always thought of it as the employee's time, and the employee's decision about where to live and how to commute, etc. As an employee I'd factor in the commute when making decisions about a job. Playing with this idea a bit: do you view the clothes that someone (only) wears to a traditional in-person office as rightfully the responsibility of the employer? Lunch?
syshum 9y ago
>The goal is to make the company’s workforce more nimble No the goal is to reduce head count with out laying people off. Companies that go from Remote to Non-Remote do it because it is an easy way to reduce head count with out having to Lay people off, it is a methodology to force people to look for work elsewhere. People that can not relocate or have built their life around working from home can not or will not make the transition back to working in an office easily. As such they will seek out employment that better fits their needs which is ultimately these companies goal because they want to avoid that "XX Company is laying off X,XXX people in the next quarter" headlines
- abakker 9y ago
  >Companies that go from Remote to Non-Remote do it because it is an easy way to reduce head count with out having to Lay people off, it is a methodology to force people to look for work elsewhere. Isn't the article suggesting that Automattic is doing the opposite? They are allowing people to work remote? By your logic, this would be to help retain workers, right?
  - syshum 9y ago
    The story also talks about IBM and Yahoo and how they are doing the opposite of Automattic, this is where the quote is from and what I am talking about. While the headline is about Automattic the actual article covers more than just them
  - dnh44 9y ago
    Yeah I think he got it backwards. I still found his comment insightful but it just doesn't apply to this post.
- tcbawo 9y ago
  Going remote may make a company easier to sell as well.
- _e 9y ago
  There is less to no friction to look for new employment when you work entirely remotely.
redm 9y ago
It's gotten far easier to telecommute in recent years and that keeps the productivity much higher than it used to be. My partners and I tried remote work back in 2007, even spending 10k to video conference with Marratech [1] (Google-owned). Today it's trivial to have good fast communication while working remotely. [1] http://www.marratech.com/ http://www.marratech.com/
ldp01 9y ago
It sounds like the crux of the issue is connectivity is now fast, reliable, and cheap. Employees don't need to waste time commuting anymore, so they don't. Now spare a thought for those of us sweating in the digital wasteland that is Australia. Every so often I have to walk over to my fridge and nudge my 4G modem to improve the signal strength. I have a script running 'round the clock to reset the darn thing if the connection drops completely (this somehow it fixes it). I need the 4G connection because the copper wire to my house is so broken it can no longer support an ADSL signal. Fibre is apparently coming in like... 2019? It is expected to run at a maximum of 25Mbps. Needless to say, remote work is not exactly on the cards.
- rmccue 9y ago
  FWIW, I have 100Mbps on NBN fibre in Brisbane, and I remote work (for a WordPress agency, as it happens). Fast internet is definitely possible in Australia, although right now, you might need to move to get it (alas). It's also not yet cheap (but we can partially expense internet, and you can also write it off for tax).
  - coffeecheque 9y ago
    I've got 100Mbps plan over copper with FTTN. Generally get about 96mb/s down and 35Mb/s up. It's great. But I'm lucky, and I get that. We play the broadband lotto, and it's not easy to win. If I move I no doubt will be back in the ADSL2 world hoping I'm close to the exchange.
    - ldp01 9y ago
      100Mbps on FTTN? That's not bad! I'm holding my breath for when the NBN finally rolls through my area. Even 25Mbps would be acceptable at this point. I had a chuckle today when I saw a restaurant in the Perth CBD was using a Vividwireless 4G modem. I would have thought the middle of the city at least would have a decent wired connection.
  - laktek 9y ago
    I'm actually considering to move to Brisbane to bootstrap my startup. Which area you live in and who's your provider?
Androider 9y ago
If you ask anyone inside IBM or Yahoo, going from remote to in-office was all about significantly reducing the headcount. The moves also coincided with reducing the number of sites, so many people would have to move far away or resign. I think the benefits of working remotely are still poorly understood, and long-term the companies that are being built remote-first are going to have a significant engineering advantage over those that bolt remote working on after the fact.
- tuna-piano 9y ago
  If true, it seems like a silly way to reduce headcount. The employees who feel like they need the job will move, but those who know they can get a job elsewhere will not. This adverse selection leads to some of your best employees leaving, with your worst staying. Better to just pick and choose who you want to keep.
  - snomad 9y ago
    Agree with your point and think your right. From the companies perspective, downsizing via changes on remote policy they spin a negative news headline into a positive ("Yahoo no longer allowing remote" vs "Yahoo lays off 2,000") and it is way lower risk in terms of labor law.
  - restalis 9y ago
    "The employees who feel like they need the job will move, but those who know they can get a job elsewhere will not. This adverse selection leads to some of your best employees leaving, with your worst staying." So your argument is that the employees that choose to stay must be bad because there can not be other reasons for their decision but the limits of their career prospects? Even if that might be true to some degree, I'm afraid that if you use this logic to guide yourself it will someday backfire badly.
  - eloisant 9y ago
    Not sure about the US, but in France it's pretty common to use these kind of sub-optimal ways to reduce headcount, like offering a "resign bonus" for the volunteers. Obviously highly employable people will leave, but the company saves the risk of strike, lawsuits, bad press etc. that come with lay-offs.
westoque 9y ago
As a remote developer myself. I still value having an office. I think being remote with an office setup is the best you can get. I can go in at any time I want, and still have the nice environment to work from of. Being remote doesn't necessarily mean no offices.
- _e 9y ago
  Yes, working remotely with kids running around in the background is not the easiest way to concentrate and get work done. On those days it is nice to have another place to go to.
- wolco 9y ago
  Agreed same situation but I lost my desk to someone who comes in daily so I stopped coming in. Kinda miss the office but not as much as I would if I lost my remote position.
- georgestephanis 9y ago
  Yarp! That's what our coworking allowance is for. I've been a member of a local coworking space for longer than I've worked at Automattic, and always got value out of it. But there's many coworkers that don't get value from it -- so no need for them to pay for / expense it.
- eloisant 9y ago
  Me too, and that's why as a remote worker I go to a coworking space.
marcuskaz 9y ago
We didn't switch to allowing remote work but started remote and always been remote. We had an office space at Pier 38 that was closed by the city in 2011[1], so had to scramble to find space. At that time we thought we would expand more in Bay Area and found a good deal that also could support other employees visiting the Bay Area. For example, in 2013 we held our whole company meetup, but have outgrown it. The main US WordCamp used to be held in SF but now as cost goes up we are moving them around last two in Philly, next in Nashville so another use of the space wasn't needed. We found it easier to grow and expand all over the world and didn't grow as much in the Bay Area as thought. Currently only 20-30 people of our 550+ live in Bay Area Also as far as space goes, that is just one photo of the downstairs area of the space. You can see more at https://automattic.com/lounge/ https://automattic.com/lounge/ and some early shots here https://customspaces.com/photo/uklO4BLxis/ https://customspaces.com/photo/uklO4BLxis/ P.S. I'm the guy in the green shirt in the photo, woo hoo! [1] https://techcrunch.com/2011/09/06/pier-38-shut-down/ https://techcrunch.com/2011/09/06/pier-38-shut-down/
- rocky1138 9y ago
  Why not offer dorms for people to live there on a daily to weekly basis? It looks like a fantastic place to work but it seems like not a lot of people live near there. It would be totally awesome to get a group of developers together and hack away at stuff not having to worry about going home for a few days.
  - elliotec 9y ago
    Because that's an extremely expensive project that nobody would use in addition to the already super expensive space that they are closing because nobody uses it.
    - elliotec 9y ago
      Also I can't imagine many people want to be at work for days at a time and not go home
      - 9y ago
tuna-piano 9y ago
Humans desire to be a part of a community. For the last several decades, that community (in the US) has been in large part the workplace. Is anything replacing the workplace as the form of community for people or is that something that is just being lost?
- splouk 9y ago
  Maybe people will go back to Church!
  - driverdan 9y ago
    Let's hope not.
- driverdan 9y ago
  Coworking offices are great. Go whenever you want, interact with people who are not your coworkers, attend industry events.
- marcosdumay 9y ago
  The workplace stopped hosting healthy communities decades ago. Forcing people into being there all day is just making sure no other community appears to fill this need.
  - steve-howard 9y ago
    I'm sure you're well aware that this depends on the workplace.
    - marcosdumay 9y ago
      Not really. At least, not to any sizeable amount. It depends more on the country, but if a decade on the same job is a long time on your region, then no workplace will have a healthy community.
- justrudd 9y ago
raimue 9y ago
The article claims they had 5 people visiting the office regularly. That does not sound much compared to 550 employees. However, according to their map [1], there are only about 10 employees in SF itself, a few more in the surroundings. Maintaining a 15,000 square feet office in that area for the amount of employees seems oversized in any case. [1] https://automattic.com/map/ https://automattic.com/map/
sgt 9y ago
I find this quite funny: "And if they’d rather work at Starbucks, Automattic will pay for their coffee" I can understand occasionally working out of a coffee shop. But who does this all the time and remains productive? And is it really fair to the coffee shop?
- Woofles 9y ago
  I work out of a coffee shop every morning and come into the office around lunch time. It helps break up my day into getting serious work done and things that require communications. As for being fair to the coffee shop, it's just become a way of life recently. If you don't want people working from your shop, don't offer wifi. The shop I'd been going to for over a year recently stopped offering wifi so I started going to a more worker friendly shop.
- kilroy123 9y ago
  I work remote full-time and I agree. No way will I work at a cafe all day. I usually go across the street to work at a cafe like 3-4 hours max. Maybe only 3 days a week as well.
- trustfundbaby 9y ago
  > But who does this all the time and remains productive? And is it really fair to the coffee shop? I do, and I'm pretty productive. I love the white noise of people around me, and its stimulating enough having different people come in and out, without being overwhelming. I buy at least a cup of coffee and a snack for every 3-4 hours I spend in there. Most of the local coffee shops I work at know me by name and usually can guess what I'm ordering before I even say anything, so I assume it doesn't bother them :D
- gibrown 9y ago
  I work at Automattic, and work out of my local coffee shop probably two times a week (rest of the time at home). It's a nice way to mix things up. Also, pretty efficient as they have great food that they will deliver to my table as I work. Does end up being a bit more social, but that is good for the soul too (see all the folks discussing feeling alone in this thread). Funny example. Last week the person next to me started a conversation about emacs. I mentioned I worked for WordPress.com, and then it turned out that two of my colleagues from Automattic (one who I hadn't met) were working just two tables over. This is in Boulder, I was pretty floored and excited to actually be seeing folks I work with in person.
nfriedly 9y ago
I feel like I have the best of both worlds. I work remote, at least from my employer's prospective, but I recently leased an office in town. I now have a quiet, private space to work, and a nice 5-6 minute bicycle commute :D It costs a little bit (~$300/mo for the space & utilities - yay for small-town-Ohio pricing), but it's totally worth it.
- sasper 9y ago
  This is how I like to manage my 100% remote position -- I rent a small space to convert into an office, or just hop into a coworking space depending on the amount of time I'm going to be somewhere and the infrastructure that needs to be built out. I have worked "from home" for years and have much better mental health (and therefore better relationships) if I have a separate space to work from.
KIFulgore 9y ago
Judging just from the photo, I'd work from home too if my workspace was a warehouse with a bunch of picnic tables.
pyb 9y ago
Funny how fast the 'remote' tide has turned in the last year or two. These days, most prospective employers/contracts I find would prefer me to work remotely. Although personally, I'd rather work onsite ! This is for London and the South East of England.
aresant 9y ago
What does a remote team do to enterprise value assuming a long term acquisition?
spikels 9y ago
Shame that such awesome space was barely being used right in the middle of SF. There is a pretty severe shortage of office space in the area. Automattic should both make a pretty good profit by subleasing at current much higher market rents and help alleviate the shortage. Even better would be if this low density land could be incorporated into the huge 667 Folsom office/residential project planned next door. You could build 50,000+ sqft on that large lot and help both the office and housing shoartage. Unfortunately SF's planning process is so slow and uncertain it is probably too late even if the owner and tenants agreed.
daemonk 9y ago
I've just started working remotely. I think one of the major benefit for me is actually that we mostly communicate via e-mail/messaging services. Of course there are plenty of situations where talking face to face is more informative, but I often find that to be rare. Communicating via text has the added benefit of documentation and allows you to think about what you are actually writing. I find describing what I plan to do with a client via text helps me organize my thinking. I work in data analysis though. So maybe this doesn't apply to other fields.
cygned 9y ago
I am wondering how a globally distributed team is set up from a law perspective. How can I employ someone from another company? Create a subsidiary in their country?
CapnCrunchie 9y ago
Working remotely has been a great experience for me. My wife and I started traveling around the US since I am fully remote and her company offered to let her work remote for a while so we could do this. We either work out of the Airbnb we rent or a cafe. In some cities we were close to a reasonably priced co-working space and would work out of there. The big draw for me has been the flexibility. We try as hard as possible to do asynchronous work, so some days I will take a few hour break in the middle of the day and go do something, and then work later into the evening.

533 points by nkjoep 9y ago

Looking at that picture, it looks like some kind of backroom place in some store where employees gather to have lunch.

If you look at the pictures I can't say I'm surprised. It doesn't look like a nice place to work. Two long desk, concrete floor, it looks very temporary.

artursapek 9y ago
I agree. Is that an airplane hanger?
ryan-allen 9y ago
I think it has more to do with the fact that remote work is discretionary.
ajdlinux 9y ago
If my employer weren't providing me with a proper monitor, as appears to be the case in these pictures, then I wouldn't be coming into the office either. (Actually, if my employer weren't providing me with a proper monitor, I'd be refusing to work on the grounds of the occupational health and safety risks of working primarily from a laptop for an extended period of time.)
- curiousGambler 9y ago
  hehe my monitor is totally a reason I go into the office
- foooo 9y ago
  > occupational health and safety risks of working primarily from a laptop for an extended period of time This is news to me, can you explain a little more why using a monitor is better than working primarily on a laptop?
  - bryanlarsen 9y ago
    It's not the lack of monitor, it's the fact that the monitor and keyboard are inseparable. If one is well-placed, the other isn't. You can fix this with either an external monitor or with a laptop stand and external keyboard.
    - mgkimsal 9y ago
      maybe i'm addicted to something I shouldn't be, but I much much much prefer laptop/keyboard/screen setup to external monitor/keyboard setup. I use an external monitor from time to time, but I'm too mobile to have that be a "default". With the laptop setup, I have consistent experience wherever I'm at. That said, I'm typically reclining (feet up on desk, leaning back, sitting in easy chair, etc) for most of my laptop time, and perhaps the experience is different from just have it on a desk most of the time?
      - morinted 9y ago
        Posture (neck angle) and arm/wrist placement are really hard to get right in the situations you describe. I saw a physiotherapist at one point and the best advice I got was to get someone to take a photo of you in your "usual" position. You can analyze that yourself or bring it to your family doctor at your next appointment if you are curious.
  - ajdlinux 9y ago
    Laptop use and poor posture go hand in hand. An external keyboard can also work as it allows you to move the laptop display to a better position, but if you're going to do that you might as well go all the way and get a decent monitor too. First result I found with Google: http://education.qld.gov.au/health/pdfs/healthsafety/laptopuse.pdf http://education.qld.gov.au/health/pdfs/healthsafety/laptopu...
- mrweasel 9y ago
  My employer is legally required to supply me with an external monitor, keyboard and mouse and height adjustable desk and chair. If I worked from home, they would also be responsible for ensuring that I have these things, and use them. This is precisely as you say because it's a health and safety risk to work on a laptop for extended periods of time.
  - ajdlinux 9y ago
    I get aches/pain and eventually headaches if I use a laptop with poor posture for too long.
- ohjeez 9y ago
  I'm a freelancer who works at home, but I bought my own monitor a long time ago. As well as the chair, keyboard, and other peripherals I wanted. Actually I got the monitor during a time I was an employee. But I knew that such gigs don't last forever and I sure didn't want to cope with packing it up and sending it back.
- TheCoreh 9y ago
  Automattic does provide monitors for all employees. In fact, they will arrange a session with an ergonomics consultant upon hiring you to set up a proper home office, as well as give you an allowance to buy a proper desk, chair, keyboard, etc. At the San Francisco office, there's a table with cinema display monitors you can plug your laptop to, they're just out of frame on this picture. I'm 100% sure the people on this photo are not using the external monitors because they don't want to. Some people prefer a consistent workflow everywhere (be it at home, the office, Starbucks or at the beach) and you can't quite get that with an external monitor. Source: Worked at Automattic
  - ajdlinux 9y ago
    Well, that's good to hear! I'm surprised by how happy people seem to be using a laptop monitor, but at least it's their choice.
    - jasonlotito 9y ago
      I'm surprised as well, though I see that trend where I work as well. People who have a monitor sitting on their desk, but they never use it. They only use their laptop. For myself, I love desktop space.
      - ghaff 9y ago
        I've changed over time for some reason. I have a nice dual monitor, mechanical keyboard setup in my office at home. But I really got into the habit of working on my laptop--probably because of a lot of travel. These days, I'm more likely to just work on my laptop at home and not even in the office. At work, I have an external monitor and keyboard I could use but I never do.
    - rpeden 9y ago
      I tend to work on multiple large monitors most of the time. But thinking back on it, some of the most productive programming time I've ever had happened on a netbook with a 10 inch screen. For some reason, having limited workspace made it much easier to stay focused and avoid distractions. Maybe because it was impossible to have my attention drawn away by the HN tab open on my second monitor. :) Attention and focus are a bit different for everyone, though. I could imagine many people feeling unbearably cramped if they were working on a small screen all the time.
rmccue 9y ago
The space is actually divided into two sections: the downstairs area is open, and designed to be flexible (for company meetups and such). The upstairs section has a lounge-type area with meeting booths and working tables, designed for the 20 or so people who actually use it regularly. There are some images of the upstairs area at https://automattic.com/lounge/ https://automattic.com/lounge/
nilkn 9y ago
I think I agree with you, even after reading all the other responses to your comment. The long desks are what kill it for me. That's one seating arrangement that I just don't think I can get on board with unless forced. I worked like that for some projects in college and I always felt so distracted, and I really disliked what seemed like a complete lack of privacy and isolation.

kyriakos 9y ago

doesn't strike me like a nice office. looks like a co-working space for startups. add more people and it will look like a hackathon than a company workspace.

Cthulhu_ 9y ago
That may just be the intent. I see that appear in a lot of hip modern offices, with parts modeled after Starbucks / coffee shops because that's the environment a certain type of person prefers to work.
Viper007Bond 9y ago
The downstairs is designed to be flexible to allow for parties or other events. Upstairs has meeting rooms and things.

Mozai 9y ago

So they bought an oversized office space, provisioned it like a warehouse, in a location that is horribly expensive to live near or get to. Are they surprised employees would rather not go there?

akerro 9y ago
I would go there. No... I would move in there.
- Cthulhu_ 9y ago
  Do the bigger companies offer living spaces alongside their campuses yet? I mean having good apartments in 10 minute walking distance would be a huge perk in SF.
  - angersock 9y ago
    Does the phrase "company town" ring any bells? This is a baaaaad idea.
    - rtx 9y ago
      Not when everything is going well. Grew up in one, it's better than any socialism and communism.
      - Crespyl 9y ago
        There are a lot of bad ideas that work great "as long as everything goes well". Unfortunately, everything does not always go well, and some ideas are better at handling that than others.
        amyjess 9y ago
        The biggest problem with company towns was that they paid employees in company scrip instead of money. IIRC, that's illegal now under modern labor laws. The second biggest problem was that companies used their company towns to force their social agendas on their employees. George Pullman would spy on employees' homes and firevict anyone living a lifestyle he didn't approve of. Tenant protections and anti-discrimination laws can take care of that (but we do need to strengthen our laws first... they're not quite there yet).

carroccio 9y ago

What type of work can one do without double monitors and a mechanical keyboard?

wolfgke 9y ago
Mechanical keyboards make annoying noise that will disturb other people working there.
- kyriakos 9y ago
  at least a monitor though..
  - wolfgke 9y ago
    I like the saying: "One can recognize experienced programmers/users that next to their second monitor there is a third one." :-)
- nerdponx 9y ago
  Not all of them.
- froindt 9y ago
  Man, it's a good thing nobody else is working there! /s
- mrob 9y ago
  Buckling springs are always noisy (you can reduce but not eliminate the noise by putting vibration damping materials inside the springs). "Clicky" switches like Cherry MX Blues are always noisy. Other key switches are much quieter, and most of the noise comes from operator error. You're not supposed to press them all the way down like a membrane switch. The operating point of mechanical key switches is near the middle of the travel. If you press too hard they'll bottom out and make a lot more noise, as well as tiring your fingers more. If you're prone to doing this by accident you can fit soft o-rings around the keycap stem to cushion the end of the stroke.

TokenDiversity 9y ago

I'm sick of working in open spaces. If you cannot give me a cubicle, let me work at home. There are countless researches clearly saying that open spaces are bad for productivity yet for some reason they always win. And it's easy to see why, you only have to throw buzzwords like collaboration, team-work, open ... and done.

pacomerh 9y ago
Yeah agree, I guess it's just more cost effective to define an open space. At some point in time cubicles gained a bad rep also.
restalis 9y ago
What I dislike most about a cubicle is the lack of natural light. (Open space doesn't necessarily mean that natural light is available, I know, but a cubicle makes it even less likely.) I am all for productivity but the cubicle setup feels like going to an extreme for the sake of the last few available percents worth of concentration improvement by stepping over parts of our inherent nature. I am willing to tolerate that only for limited periods if I absolutely need that productivity boost, I am not however considering that good for me or anyone else for the normal daily work regime.

alaskamiller 9y ago

Had a party at the WordPress office a few years back and it's a great space. There's a lounge, kitchen, the bathrooms are nice, some room for bikes, and the rest of the space is setup to be multi-use. There's a big stage area and the corners are furnished to be pretty cozy. Of my past work places--death star cube farms in old silicon valley to tiny rooms in sweltering Berkeley summers to shiny live/work lofts to giant sprawling disneyland like campus to noisy hipster coffee shops--that WordPress office would be up there in terms of a good place to work at. The real story is the upward trend that if you give an inch, your employees will take a foot. If you offer telecommute, workers will not show up. I've been freelancing and telecommuting the past five years. I've built my workstyle around chat bubbles, slack channels, video calls, and emails whether 2PM or 2AM. I've built my lifestyle around that. As in I work around my life. Things just... get done without a direct measure of productivity anymore. Sitting somewhere from 9 to 5 is like watching TV from the 2000's, ordering Netflix DVDs when we live in the 2010's with streaming Netflix. And as one disappear, so does another and another. When you look around and realize no one else is there anymore it just becomes a ghost town while the virtual water cooler becomes more and more vibrant. No ones goes to the office anymore, it's too lonely.

devoply 9y ago
> if you give an inch, your employees will take a foot. Employers have been eating up to 10 hours (2 hours per day) of unpaid commute time of employees for ages. Is it then really surprising that no one wants to waste time coming to work. If that time was paid, if commute time was paid, then maybe you would consider it. But it's a very simple economic calculation. It's like why am I paying for that time. I don't have to, so I won't. That 10 hours is 20% extra salary that is not paid. And if your argument is that you could live closer, then the counter argument is that employers should have their offices in affordable areas where any employee can afford to easily live because rent is cheap. Not in the middle of downtown because that's what their peers or customers expect.
- del82 9y ago
  It's interesting to view commute time as the employer's time rather than employee's time, and therefore as time that should be compensated. I'd always thought of it as the employee's time, and the employee's decision about where to live and how to commute, etc. As an employee I'd factor in the commute when making decisions about a job. Playing with this idea a bit: do you view the clothes that someone (only) wears to a traditional in-person office as rightfully the responsibility of the employer? Lunch?

syshum 9y ago

>The goal is to make the company’s workforce more nimble No the goal is to reduce head count with out laying people off. Companies that go from Remote to Non-Remote do it because it is an easy way to reduce head count with out having to Lay people off, it is a methodology to force people to look for work elsewhere. People that can not relocate or have built their life around working from home can not or will not make the transition back to working in an office easily. As such they will seek out employment that better fits their needs which is ultimately these companies goal because they want to avoid that "XX Company is laying off X,XXX people in the next quarter" headlines

abakker 9y ago
>Companies that go from Remote to Non-Remote do it because it is an easy way to reduce head count with out having to Lay people off, it is a methodology to force people to look for work elsewhere. Isn't the article suggesting that Automattic is doing the opposite? They are allowing people to work remote? By your logic, this would be to help retain workers, right?
- syshum 9y ago
  The story also talks about IBM and Yahoo and how they are doing the opposite of Automattic, this is where the quote is from and what I am talking about. While the headline is about Automattic the actual article covers more than just them
- dnh44 9y ago
  Yeah I think he got it backwards. I still found his comment insightful but it just doesn't apply to this post.
tcbawo 9y ago
Going remote may make a company easier to sell as well.
_e 9y ago
There is less to no friction to look for new employment when you work entirely remotely.

redm 9y ago

It's gotten far easier to telecommute in recent years and that keeps the productivity much higher than it used to be. My partners and I tried remote work back in 2007, even spending 10k to video conference with Marratech [1] (Google-owned). Today it's trivial to have good fast communication while working remotely. [1] http://www.marratech.com/ http://www.marratech.com/

ldp01 9y ago

It sounds like the crux of the issue is connectivity is now fast, reliable, and cheap. Employees don't need to waste time commuting anymore, so they don't. Now spare a thought for those of us sweating in the digital wasteland that is Australia. Every so often I have to walk over to my fridge and nudge my 4G modem to improve the signal strength. I have a script running 'round the clock to reset the darn thing if the connection drops completely (this somehow it fixes it). I need the 4G connection because the copper wire to my house is so broken it can no longer support an ADSL signal. Fibre is apparently coming in like... 2019? It is expected to run at a maximum of 25Mbps. Needless to say, remote work is not exactly on the cards.

rmccue 9y ago
FWIW, I have 100Mbps on NBN fibre in Brisbane, and I remote work (for a WordPress agency, as it happens). Fast internet is definitely possible in Australia, although right now, you might need to move to get it (alas). It's also not yet cheap (but we can partially expense internet, and you can also write it off for tax).
- coffeecheque 9y ago
  I've got 100Mbps plan over copper with FTTN. Generally get about 96mb/s down and 35Mb/s up. It's great. But I'm lucky, and I get that. We play the broadband lotto, and it's not easy to win. If I move I no doubt will be back in the ADSL2 world hoping I'm close to the exchange.
  - ldp01 9y ago
    100Mbps on FTTN? That's not bad! I'm holding my breath for when the NBN finally rolls through my area. Even 25Mbps would be acceptable at this point. I had a chuckle today when I saw a restaurant in the Perth CBD was using a Vividwireless 4G modem. I would have thought the middle of the city at least would have a decent wired connection.
- laktek 9y ago
  I'm actually considering to move to Brisbane to bootstrap my startup. Which area you live in and who's your provider?

Androider 9y ago

If you ask anyone inside IBM or Yahoo, going from remote to in-office was all about significantly reducing the headcount. The moves also coincided with reducing the number of sites, so many people would have to move far away or resign. I think the benefits of working remotely are still poorly understood, and long-term the companies that are being built remote-first are going to have a significant engineering advantage over those that bolt remote working on after the fact.

tuna-piano 9y ago
If true, it seems like a silly way to reduce headcount. The employees who feel like they need the job will move, but those who know they can get a job elsewhere will not. This adverse selection leads to some of your best employees leaving, with your worst staying. Better to just pick and choose who you want to keep.
- snomad 9y ago
  Agree with your point and think your right. From the companies perspective, downsizing via changes on remote policy they spin a negative news headline into a positive ("Yahoo no longer allowing remote" vs "Yahoo lays off 2,000") and it is way lower risk in terms of labor law.
- restalis 9y ago
  "The employees who feel like they need the job will move, but those who know they can get a job elsewhere will not. This adverse selection leads to some of your best employees leaving, with your worst staying." So your argument is that the employees that choose to stay must be bad because there can not be other reasons for their decision but the limits of their career prospects? Even if that might be true to some degree, I'm afraid that if you use this logic to guide yourself it will someday backfire badly.
- eloisant 9y ago
  Not sure about the US, but in France it's pretty common to use these kind of sub-optimal ways to reduce headcount, like offering a "resign bonus" for the volunteers. Obviously highly employable people will leave, but the company saves the risk of strike, lawsuits, bad press etc. that come with lay-offs.

westoque 9y ago

As a remote developer myself. I still value having an office. I think being remote with an office setup is the best you can get. I can go in at any time I want, and still have the nice environment to work from of. Being remote doesn't necessarily mean no offices.

_e 9y ago
Yes, working remotely with kids running around in the background is not the easiest way to concentrate and get work done. On those days it is nice to have another place to go to.
wolco 9y ago
Agreed same situation but I lost my desk to someone who comes in daily so I stopped coming in. Kinda miss the office but not as much as I would if I lost my remote position.
georgestephanis 9y ago
Yarp! That's what our coworking allowance is for. I've been a member of a local coworking space for longer than I've worked at Automattic, and always got value out of it. But there's many coworkers that don't get value from it -- so no need for them to pay for / expense it.
eloisant 9y ago
Me too, and that's why as a remote worker I go to a coworking space.

marcuskaz 9y ago

We didn't switch to allowing remote work but started remote and always been remote. We had an office space at Pier 38 that was closed by the city in 2011[1], so had to scramble to find space. At that time we thought we would expand more in Bay Area and found a good deal that also could support other employees visiting the Bay Area. For example, in 2013 we held our whole company meetup, but have outgrown it. The main US WordCamp used to be held in SF but now as cost goes up we are moving them around last two in Philly, next in Nashville so another use of the space wasn't needed. We found it easier to grow and expand all over the world and didn't grow as much in the Bay Area as thought. Currently only 20-30 people of our 550+ live in Bay Area Also as far as space goes, that is just one photo of the downstairs area of the space. You can see more at https://automattic.com/lounge/ https://automattic.com/lounge/ and some early shots here https://customspaces.com/photo/uklO4BLxis/ https://customspaces.com/photo/uklO4BLxis/ P.S. I'm the guy in the green shirt in the photo, woo hoo! [1] https://techcrunch.com/2011/09/06/pier-38-shut-down/ https://techcrunch.com/2011/09/06/pier-38-shut-down/

rocky1138 9y ago
Why not offer dorms for people to live there on a daily to weekly basis? It looks like a fantastic place to work but it seems like not a lot of people live near there. It would be totally awesome to get a group of developers together and hack away at stuff not having to worry about going home for a few days.
- elliotec 9y ago
  Because that's an extremely expensive project that nobody would use in addition to the already super expensive space that they are closing because nobody uses it.
  - elliotec 9y ago
    Also I can't imagine many people want to be at work for days at a time and not go home
    - 9y ago

tuna-piano 9y ago

Humans desire to be a part of a community. For the last several decades, that community (in the US) has been in large part the workplace. Is anything replacing the workplace as the form of community for people or is that something that is just being lost?

splouk 9y ago
Maybe people will go back to Church!
- driverdan 9y ago
  Let's hope not.
driverdan 9y ago
Coworking offices are great. Go whenever you want, interact with people who are not your coworkers, attend industry events.
marcosdumay 9y ago
The workplace stopped hosting healthy communities decades ago. Forcing people into being there all day is just making sure no other community appears to fill this need.
- steve-howard 9y ago
  I'm sure you're well aware that this depends on the workplace.
  - marcosdumay 9y ago
    Not really. At least, not to any sizeable amount. It depends more on the country, but if a decade on the same job is a long time on your region, then no workplace will have a healthy community.
justrudd 9y ago

raimue 9y ago

The article claims they had 5 people visiting the office regularly. That does not sound much compared to 550 employees. However, according to their map [1], there are only about 10 employees in SF itself, a few more in the surroundings. Maintaining a 15,000 square feet office in that area for the amount of employees seems oversized in any case. [1] https://automattic.com/map/ https://automattic.com/map/

sgt 9y ago

I find this quite funny: "And if they’d rather work at Starbucks, Automattic will pay for their coffee" I can understand occasionally working out of a coffee shop. But who does this all the time and remains productive? And is it really fair to the coffee shop?

Woofles 9y ago
I work out of a coffee shop every morning and come into the office around lunch time. It helps break up my day into getting serious work done and things that require communications. As for being fair to the coffee shop, it's just become a way of life recently. If you don't want people working from your shop, don't offer wifi. The shop I'd been going to for over a year recently stopped offering wifi so I started going to a more worker friendly shop.
kilroy123 9y ago
I work remote full-time and I agree. No way will I work at a cafe all day. I usually go across the street to work at a cafe like 3-4 hours max. Maybe only 3 days a week as well.
trustfundbaby 9y ago
> But who does this all the time and remains productive? And is it really fair to the coffee shop? I do, and I'm pretty productive. I love the white noise of people around me, and its stimulating enough having different people come in and out, without being overwhelming. I buy at least a cup of coffee and a snack for every 3-4 hours I spend in there. Most of the local coffee shops I work at know me by name and usually can guess what I'm ordering before I even say anything, so I assume it doesn't bother them :D
gibrown 9y ago
I work at Automattic, and work out of my local coffee shop probably two times a week (rest of the time at home). It's a nice way to mix things up. Also, pretty efficient as they have great food that they will deliver to my table as I work. Does end up being a bit more social, but that is good for the soul too (see all the folks discussing feeling alone in this thread). Funny example. Last week the person next to me started a conversation about emacs. I mentioned I worked for WordPress.com, and then it turned out that two of my colleagues from Automattic (one who I hadn't met) were working just two tables over. This is in Boulder, I was pretty floored and excited to actually be seeing folks I work with in person.

nfriedly 9y ago

I feel like I have the best of both worlds. I work remote, at least from my employer's prospective, but I recently leased an office in town. I now have a quiet, private space to work, and a nice 5-6 minute bicycle commute :D It costs a little bit (~$300/mo for the space & utilities - yay for small-town-Ohio pricing), but it's totally worth it.

sasper 9y ago
This is how I like to manage my 100% remote position -- I rent a small space to convert into an office, or just hop into a coworking space depending on the amount of time I'm going to be somewhere and the infrastructure that needs to be built out. I have worked "from home" for years and have much better mental health (and therefore better relationships) if I have a separate space to work from.

KIFulgore 9y ago

Judging just from the photo, I'd work from home too if my workspace was a warehouse with a bunch of picnic tables.

pyb 9y ago

Funny how fast the 'remote' tide has turned in the last year or two. These days, most prospective employers/contracts I find would prefer me to work remotely. Although personally, I'd rather work onsite ! This is for London and the South East of England.

aresant 9y ago

What does a remote team do to enterprise value assuming a long term acquisition?

spikels 9y ago

Shame that such awesome space was barely being used right in the middle of SF. There is a pretty severe shortage of office space in the area. Automattic should both make a pretty good profit by subleasing at current much higher market rents and help alleviate the shortage. Even better would be if this low density land could be incorporated into the huge 667 Folsom office/residential project planned next door. You could build 50,000+ sqft on that large lot and help both the office and housing shoartage. Unfortunately SF's planning process is so slow and uncertain it is probably too late even if the owner and tenants agreed.

daemonk 9y ago

I've just started working remotely. I think one of the major benefit for me is actually that we mostly communicate via e-mail/messaging services. Of course there are plenty of situations where talking face to face is more informative, but I often find that to be rare. Communicating via text has the added benefit of documentation and allows you to think about what you are actually writing. I find describing what I plan to do with a client via text helps me organize my thinking. I work in data analysis though. So maybe this doesn't apply to other fields.

cygned 9y ago

I am wondering how a globally distributed team is set up from a law perspective. How can I employ someone from another company? Create a subsidiary in their country?

CapnCrunchie 9y ago

Working remotely has been a great experience for me. My wife and I started traveling around the US since I am fully remote and her company offered to let her work remote for a while so we could do this. We either work out of the Airbnb we rent or a cafe. In some cities we were close to a reasonably priced co-working space and would work out of there. The big draw for me has been the flexibility. We try as hard as possible to do asynchronous work, so some days I will take a few hour break in the middle of the day and go do something, and then work later into the evening.