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Uber Fires More Than 20 Employees in Harassment Probe
- rwmj 9y ago12,000 employees in Uber? (I'm assuming that doesn't include the drivers). What do they do all day?
- oculusthrift 9y agoare you the type to ask that question about google and facebook too? uber is facebook minus a few years and has similiar numbers
- rwmj 9y agoAbout Facebook, yes. Google does genuinely seem to have fingers in very many pies so their headcount is not really a surprise.
- fixermark 9y agoFacebook also has fingers in many pies (their main product, the messenger, ads, VR...)
- komali2 9y agoI ask that about Twitter - these companies always seem to have more than I would expect necessary.
- mattzito 9y agoi think you underestimate the massive amount of backend and internal optimization that's required. Sure, the MVP of Twitter is a few thousand lines of code, but think about ad buying, ad display, abuse detection, customer service, content management, APIs, mobile, mobile web, etc., and that's just on the engineering side of things. For every engineer you'll need business folks, PMs, designers, operations, etc.
- fixermark 9y agoHell, Twitter is a great example. We know what Twitter looks like without enough staff: an unreliable MVP that fail-whales all the time. Twitter acquired the staff and capital to scale up and they became far more stable. The economies of scale large computer systems offer are counter-weighted by the n-squared complexity of larger systems.
- icebraining 9y agoYet Whatsapp managed to support 500M users sending 10 billion messages/day using five mobile apps with only 50 engineers.
- austenallred 9y agoAdding manpower doesn't make product/shipping grow linearly. At a certain point the majority of work is coordination costs, but is mostly requisite to eke out a wide range of coordinated and successful products. At scale things can become massively difficult.
- sulam 9y agoFacebook had ~2000 employees just before their IPO IIRC. Just as a data point.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- djsumdog 9y agoThey're in a lot of counties and have a massive infrastructure. This number isn't that surprising.
- microtherion 9y agoThis is roughly as many employees as Apple had in 2005 so it still seems rather high to me.
- Cacti 9y agoWell, this is world-wide. Presumably most of them are local support and such.
- ng12 9y agoAt a valuation of $6m/employee it's hard to argue with.
- hendzen 9y agoIn the business world, people typically cite profit/employee or revenue/employee. It's only in SV that people cite valuation/employee..
- mikeyouse 9y agoThey're on a run rate of ~$14 billion in 2017 revenue based on their Q1 numbers, so call it $1.2 million per employee in revenue.
- vkou 9y agoI can have a run rate of infinity dollars, if my business model consists of selling $20 bills for $19. What's their revenue minus costs of revenue?
- noway421 9y agois that any different from profit?
- vkou 9y agoIt is. If they made 20 billion dollars, and then spent 21 billion dollars, and 2 billion of the latter was a big pile of money that they set on fire, it shouldn't count as a cost of revenue. If, on the other hand, the spent all 21 billion dollars on paying drivers, driver promotions, marketing, flash sales, and coupons... It most certainly should.
- austenallred 9y agoHelp manage the 1 million rides that happen every day in 450 cities. Multiple products, localization, recruiting, customer support, operations, etc etc etc. Look at their job openings to get a sense of how massive of an operation Uber is: https://careers-uber.icims.com/jobs/search?iis=joindot-V101A-eng&mobile=false&width=1120&height=500&bga=true&needsRedirect=false&jan1offset=-480&jun1offset=-420 https://careers-uber.icims.com/jobs/search?iis=joindot-V101A...
- komali2 9y ago>manage How do they manage the rides? I thought it was handled by the app?
- seanmcdirmid 9y agoSomeone has to write the app and maintain the backend.
- nevir 9y agoAlso deal with all the crazy situations that arise from cars driving humans through cities
- AnimalMuppet 9y agoYou should be able to do both with far fewer than 12,000 people. I suspect that the bulk of those people are doing something else.
- 1024core 9y agoWell, no one's stopping you from starting a competitor. Since you can do it with far fewer people, you should be profitable in no time. Good luck!
- AnimalMuppet 9y agoI never said Uber didn't have that many people. I said that all those people aren't writing the app and maintaining the backend. Could I do it with fewer people? Maybe, maybe not. Could I do it with fewer than 12,000 people writing the app and maintaining the backend? Absolutely.
- babuskov 9y ago> What do they do all day? Convince the investors of the company worth?
- sulam 9y agoA lot of them seem dedicated to repeatedly contacting me about interviewing there. As in trying to get me to. No thank you.
- exelius 9y agoThey use a different model in nearly every city they operate (some are base fare + per mile; some base fare + per mile + per minute, others flat fee between certain areas, etc.) thanks to varied taxi laws across the country / world. That takes a lot of local employees.
- vernie 9y agoThat's a lot of laws to skirt.
- CodeWriter23 9y agoJust enumerating the publicly-known and publicly-alleged activities of Uber: (WARNING to the humor averse: this is part true, and part tongue-in-cheek) 1. Running a rideshare app. 2. Customer Service. 3. Union Busting 4. Autonomous Vehicle Development. 5. Misappropriation of Trade Secrets. 6. Developing systems to deceive government regulators. 7. Figuring out how to cut the throats of other department heads aka "always be hustlin'". 8. Poaching drivers from other rideshare networks. 9. Subprime auto financing 10. Techblog rants about tech that breaks when Uber breaks it 11. Rental/leasing programs 12. Generating bogus ride requests on other rideshare networks. 13. Getting dates for CEO ("Boober", lest we forget) 14. Getting CEO invited to celebrity parties 15. Flying Cars. 16. Food Delivery. 17. Autonomous LTL and Truckload carriage. 18. Innovating new ways to break laws. 19. Fending off unwanted sexual advances. And no, drivers are not included as they are not drivers. Also, there are a lot more than 12,000 Uber drivers. There's probably at least half that in California alone, possibly more.
- belovedeagle 9y agoI remember when these were called "witch-hunts", not "probes". How progressive we are.
- sctb 9y agoThese threads don't need drive-by inflammation, please.
- belovedeagle 9y agoIs "inflammation" a function of opinion popularity?
- sctb 9y agoNo, rather a function of provocation over substantiveness.
- belovedeagle 9y agoAnd popular opinions are not provocative, by definition. Why would one pour substance into a comment which will be flag killed anyways, instead of simply saying what one means succinctly in the hopes that approximately four people will be exposed to ideas they've never been exposed to?
- ThrustVectoring 9y agoThe article doesn't discuss the seniority of the fired employees. It's very hard to distinguish between scapegoating and actually working to fix the problem without that information. The problem with Uber isn't that some employees engage in sexual harassment. The problem is that there's a culture where sexual harassment isn't taken seriously, is tolerated if the perpetrators are "high performing" in other respects, and there's common knowledge that being "high performing" covers all sorts of other ills. No amount of firing of the low-level scum that grows in this environment will fix this issue.
- macspoofing 9y ago>The problem is that there's a culture where sexual harassment isn't taken seriously Is there? I've seen people claim this but I haven't seen any evidence for it. I know Susan Fowler's account is used frequently as basis for that statement and though I don't doubt her sincerity and truthfulness, you can't just extrapolate her experience to the entire (global) company.
- mavelikara 9y agoYou stated: I haven't seen any evidence for it. In the very next sentence you offer one such evidence, and then go on to discredit it with you can't just extrapolate.
- travmatt 9y agoThe mental gymnastics of motivated reasoning is a wonder to behold.
- macspoofing 9y ago>In the very next sentence you offer one such evidence, and then go on to discredit it with you can't just extrapolate. Right. Because in the first case we're talking about a systemic problem applying to a global company of 12,000 possibly spanning all levels of management as well as its polices and mandates. In the second case we're talking about a person's singular experience - which I've never disputed. The former is a much stronger statement than the latter so you cannot use the latter to prove the former.
- hueving 9y agoI wonder if events like this turn Uber employees who leave around this time into a market of lemons. Obviously nobody will put on their resume that they were fired for sexual harassment so hiring managers will have to wonder if a person who left Uber recently was fed up or fired. Seems risky to hire a recent Uber employee at this point because bringing a toxic sexist into the company can inflict massive damage.
- ASinclair 9y agoThe easy way to avoid this would be to hire people still employed by Uber. I'd say most people don't quit their job then start the interviewing process. Usually people quit once they have a new job lined up.
- tedivm 9y agoI have the exact opposite experience- most of the people I know here in the bay area embrace "funemployment" by having a break between leaving their jobs and getting a new one. At a minimum I wouldn't use it as a heuristic for whether the person is hirable or not.
- sushid 9y agoThe "funemployment" part is true, but that's usually after they secured a job and plan on starting with a bit of a break. Otherwise their "funemployment" would be plagued with job interviews and prep.
- mdpye 9y agoI've left all of my previous posts without anything lined up and taken a few months. Even once in to the interview cycle at the end, it's a lot more relaxing (and flexible) than doing them while employed!
- wikibob 9y agoI've wondered how common this is in the bay. Can you expand on this with an anecdote or two? Do the people who you know that have done this seem to ever have problems getting hired again?
- ramshanker 9y agoDoes it make having "Uber" in your Career Profile look bad now? Even if someone wants to genuinely switch job within next few month out of Uber, It would raise eyebrows at next interview table. So Uber gonna have very mall attrition rate now. Every action has both side of coin. :)
- zorpner 9y agoDepending on where you are, it already has been. I recruited a friend recently who worked for Uber two jobs ago, and got objections at multiple levels (pulled them through because I knew they left Uber originally due to ethical objections and could speak to that directly). At this point having it in your job history needs to be addressed in your e-mail/cover letter.
- idiotdummy 9y ago>I recruited a friend recently who worked for Uber two jobs ago, and got objections at multiple levels So Silicon Valley has a sexual harassment problem and a prejudice problem?
- samstave 9y agoWhat about a zenifits job? They had to BAN sex in the stairwells and drinking on the job
- zorpner 9y agoHaving a problem and addressing it is different than having a problem and not addressing it for years (and yeah, I might ask an ex-Zenefits prospect how they felt about that). Is that unclear or difficult to understand?
- samstave 9y agoI think you read tone into my comment where there was none. Mine was a valid question; "in your opinion, iss Zenifits also seen poorly on a resume, given the fact that it is known that the CEO had to step down and they had to take measures to ban sex and drinking in the office, and this is amplified by the fact that they are a freaking HR company" - - I would think that if anyone is familiar with the Valley, that they would certainly know the Zenifits story and should rightfully-aise eyebrows if they see the positions on a resume... I wasnt challenging your comment, I wa agreeing with it and adding zenefits to the naughty list.
- bgun 9y agoThe article contains so little information (that isn't already revealed in the nicely succinct headline) that clicking through is almost certainly not worth your time.
- danso 9y agoHere's Recode's version, which is just as slim as Bloomberg's: https://www.recode.net/2017/6/6/15747446/uber-fires-20-employees-sexual-harassment-investigation https://www.recode.net/2017/6/6/15747446/uber-fires-20-emplo... However, Recode notes that Bloomberg was the first to report this info. So, the OP is the best that we have so far until the Holder report is released.
- mikeyouse 9y agoMike Isaac (who's broken a number of Uber stories lately) was tweeting about it -- apparently they're announcing the firings at an all-hands meeting right now. I expect we'll know more in an hour or two. https://twitter.com/MikeIsaac/status/872147778461421568 https://twitter.com/MikeIsaac/status/872147778461421568
- djsumdog 9y agoFeels somewhat symbolic at this point. The massively corrupt shop decides to fire a bunch of people who max out the acceptable level of corruption. Even how they hired Holder feels like a PR tactic; a man who was against all the US torture techniques (http://fightthefuture.org/articles/the-rescue-of-eric-holder/ http://fightthefuture.org/articles/the-rescue-of-eric-holder...) and yet prosecuted no one. He is the image of a career, PR frontman. I'm still going to take Lyft over Uber in cities that have it, and that's only if I simply can't wait for the bus.
- fil_a_del_fee_a 9y agoYes, it seems very political that they chose EH. Most people see his name, and think "oh if they hired him, they must be trying to do the RIGHT thing".
- polishTar 9y agoFiring 2 or 3 people might be symbolic. Firing >20 isn't.
- BinaryIdiot 9y agoNot that I really agree with parent but Uber has 12,000+ employees so 20 people is, what, 0.16% of their workforce at most? There are a lot of stories about Uber's culture and conduct so I honestly expected a lot more especially since culture issues usually run very deep and touch quite a lot of people. But who knows, maybe it's the correct amount of people. But I can sorta understand it coming off as almost symbolic due to the low number.
- walshemj 9y agoTo be serious enough for immediate firing its a hell of a lot - this is with my industrial relations hat on BTW.
- BinaryIdiot 9y agoWas it an immediate firing? Maybe I missed that part but I didn't see any details around the firings other than the fact that they were fired. Though I'm sure it's a likely good assumption that it was immediate.
- ProfessorLayton 9y agoInteresting how this contrasts with what Uber's new HR head said 2.5 weeks ago: https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/news/2017/05/25/ubers-biggest-employee-problems-pay-and-pride-not-sexism-says-hr-boss/102075284/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/news/2017/05/25/ubers-bi... Its also great to see that no company is too big to be raked over the coals over workplace sexual harassment.
- timbuckley 9y agoI guess other companies should be wary of persons who leave Uber in the past few weeks or so.
- 5ilv3r 9y agoNah, profiling is no good. Probably a better idea to work on a solid recruiting process that can shake out practitioners of bad behavior from the candidate pool. Then you can handle it and more.
- ThrustVectoring 9y agoI don't really like the "bad actor" model of things. You don't just want people who aren't going to engage in that sort of behavior regardless of context. You also want people who are professional enough to figure out what's allowed and work within that box.
- potatolicious 9y ago> "Probably a better idea to work on a solid recruiting process that can shake out practitioners of bad behavior from the candidate pool." I agree in principle - but how do you suggest this be done? It's not as if harassers are going to cop to it in an interview. I: "Have you sexually harassed your colleagues at previous jobs?" C: "Oh yeah, sure, yep, I'll show myself out now." Nor are companies permitted to answer whether or not someone was terminated for cause, or whether they received harassment-related reprimands. I think everyone agrees that detecting and filtering out bad actors from your candidate pool is great - but is there actually a practical way to do so? The "state of the art" around this is back-channeling - calling around to see if you can locate people who have worked with the candidate, and getting the unofficial word on whether or not they're bad actors. This has pretty glaring and obvious issues, and isn't always possible, but we don't really have a better way. I think profiling people for leaving Uber is highly problematic - but what's the alternative? Ask them if they got canned for harassment, and when they inevitably deny it, just take them at their word?
- s73ver 9y ago
- randyrand 9y agoI just want to say, for every person in disgust of Uber and their sexual harassment scenario, there are many more of us that just don't care. Of course, most that don't care don't comment. So the comment section is not a good view of public opinion. Just the vocal minority.
- j2kun 9y agoOr the silent folks already agree that illegal harassment is bad and don't have anything new to contribute.
- seldo 9y agoI think you should probably re-examine your priorities in life, but that's just me. You do you.
- graphememes 9y agoWe don't know their priorities so we can't really judge that. I am sure there are many things that you don't care about that others would think you should, but it doesn't mean you are wrong and they are right. The world isn't black and white.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- 5ilv3r 9y agoDang went through and banned a lot of accounts for posts like this yesterday. Heads up.
- randyrand 9y agoI don't see how it violates any of the rules of HN comments.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- tehwebguy 9y ago
- jlg23 9y agoCan we please live in a time where this is not news but common sense?
- pyronik 9y agoAre we really at the point in society if someone asks a coworker out on a date its sexual harassment? I imagine the answer to that is whether she said yes or not. Rule #1 ... be attractive.
- vkou 9y agoI'm surprised that we are still at a point in society where people legitimately don't understand the difference between workplace-appropriate behaviour, and harassment. But, to spell the difference out: Once is asking. Twice is harassment. Propositioning a report is a fireable offense. There's more to it, but those are the basics.
- macspoofing 9y ago>I'm surprised that we are still at a point in society where people legitimately don't understand the difference between workplace-appropriate behaviour, and harassment. I'm not, especially when it comes to tech which is full of young 20-somethings, some of whom may be brilliant when it comes to programming and mathematics, but dumb when it comes to social cues and social interactions. A lot of this stuff gets figured out with experience. >Once is asking. Twice is harassment. Propositioning a report is a fireable offense. Sure. Sounds like a good general rule that may be too permissive in some cases, and too punishing in other.
- watwut 9y agoI work in tech. While there are problems, dudes are way better at social skills then you imply. Thay includes dudes with asperger.
- macspoofing 9y agoYes. Of course. Generally people are good and decent. And this case doesn't contradict this since we're talking about 20 fired employees out of 12,000. And I didn't only refer to 'dudes'. I referred to 20-somethings. Women can be dumbasses too.
- ChuckMcM 9y agoI wonder if this helps encourage the senior leadership of other companies that have issues with harrasment not being punished to step up and discipline the harrassers.
- graphememes 9y agoControversial opinion here... Why are the vocal hacker news commenters against segregated groups? For instance, what would be the issue with places that have selective hiring for individuals that meet their cultural composition and why does that bother you specifically? Isn't that the case in every location? In this case, there was harassment, however generally it is understood that "birds of a feather flock together" so wouldn't it make sense to simply find your flock rather than trying to force yourself to mold to someone else's? I am genuinely curious about this as it seems to be a rising trend where the vocal minority want to enforce their idea of culture and beliefs onto others as if it were a religious or cult like movement that I have seen before in Christian groups.
- untog 9y agoI'm trying to parse out your meaning here. Are you suggesting that companies like Uber should be open and encouraged to hire sexual harassers so that they might all enjoy the company of each other? Or are you suggesting that someone who has been harassed should leave their employer and not complain about it, because the company should be free to sexually harass as much as it wants? Or both?
- graphememes 9y agoI will humor this idea that I was specifically talking about "sexual harassers" specifically and all the people in question are indeed "sexual harassers" since that seems to be your moral objection. Are you morally against sexual harassers going to therapy together, or being in business together due to the nature of the moral composition of what a sexual harasser has done, does the amount of sexual harassing or degree come into factor, and at what point is the sexual harassing dangerous to others. Is it dangerous that these people are grouping together, and why would that be dangerous? Is it dangerous when other groups of people group together? Woodworkers, doctors, nurses, pedophiles, politicians, bsdm workers, prostitutes, pimps, rappers, engineeers... I am uncertain as to what you specifically disagree with people of the same kind grouping together? Isn't this something that prisons, schools, neighborhoods do? If not enforced or by design, generally it occurs by natural progression regardless. Onto your second point, I am not sure how you came to this conclusion, everyone is free to complain. I am talking pre-entry, you deduce the nature of the company prior to entry and whether thats an environment you can live within. When you are inside and it changes, you still are a component and can witness the change and deduce whether its something you can live within or find yourself being comfortable with. This is a psychological point and not from a point of morals but a point of behavior. There are places that I will never apply to or work at because I know that we will not work well together due to the nature of their culture, and I don't complain about them because they have the right to group together in such a way. We complain once it becomes an issue and harms others, and that is fine. Everyone is okay with this, I find no issue with this. What I do find issue with, is people going further and applying what works for their specific ideology or culture to others by _force_ through nefarious tactics like you either intentionally or unintentionally have done through position of morals, shaming, bullying, etc.. That is what I have an issue with.
- jlebrech 9y agoI'm not detracting from the real sexual harassment that occurred but looking for naughty people to fire is one of the first steps before redundancies. All it takes is for the IT department to scour the exchange server for ignored or rejected emails asking a female colleague if she wants a coffee, and making them the cost free fires.