8 ms·

>It really doesn't seem very many steps above slavery Zero. It's literally slavery. The thought of it is barbaric and horrible.

kapauldo 9y ago
Let's not get carried away, they are criminals who committed crimes.
- wavefunction 9y ago
  Then let's make their slavery part of the official statute rather than claim we're not also committing crimes.
  - aswanson 9y ago
    Slavery is already legal in the US under the 13th amendment if one commits a crime. It's literally the highest law of the land.
    - wavefunction 9y ago
      Is slavery enumerated as one of the punishments levied by the Court? It is not. It may be allowed by the Constitution but it is a significant extra punishment levied on offenders that should be part of their actual punitive phase, if that is what society wants.
    - mcherm 9y ago
      > Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction. The 13th amendment specifically permits "slavery" as a punishment for those convicted of a crime.
      - anigbrowl 9y ago
        Yes, that's what the poster above you said.
  - gnode 9y ago
    It essentially is, by exception. The text of the Thriteenth Amendment states: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."
- conanbatt 9y ago
  Being convicted to slavery is justice now?
  - crusso 9y ago
    I don't like the over-use of the word "slavery". Slavery was the capturing of innocent human beings and then forcing them and their progeny to do labor in perpetuity. It was utterly dehumanizing and undeserved treatment. We do a disservice to the meaning of slavery in the USA by calling everything slavery: taxation, prison work, marriage, etc.
    - lovich 9y ago
      So other than the progeny part, how is prison labor not exactly what you said? People are literally captured, and based on overturned convictions at least some percentage are innocent. These people are then forced to work and can have their sentence extended arbitrarily by bureaucrats and not the court system. Based on the California example the system even tries to keep people working when given a court order to release people. The only thing preventing the in perpetuity part is basically the good graces of the bureacracy. I do agree about the overuse of the term in other situations however
      - mcherm 9y ago
        > and can have their sentence extended arbitrarily by bureaucrats and not the court system That part, at least, is not technically correct.
      - danielam 9y ago
        You're confusing things. There is a difference between forced hard labor as just (and thus commensurate) punishment for a crime and actual, particular abuses committed by the justice system. There is nothing wrong with forced hard labor as a punishment for a crime to the degree required by justice (and frankly, many crimes deserve far worse). There IS something wrong with inflicting pain on someone who is innocent, esp. when those inflicting the pain do so without authority, without sufficient justification or in excess.
- Broken_Hippo 9y ago
  So what? Ever had a traffic ticket? Stolen something when you were young? Yes? Technically, you are a criminal then. You just didn't get caught or were a minor criminal, according to law. Besides. Anyone in prison/jail is still human and I truly believe this gives you some rights, including the right not to be used as slave labor. After all, we've already taken away their freedom.
  - jcranmer 9y ago
    Traffic tickets are not crimes, they're not even misdemeanors. For example, the Virginia code says: > "Traffic infraction" means a violation of law punishable as provided in § 46.2-113, which is neither a felony nor a misdemeanor. § 46.2-113: > [ ... ] Unless otherwise stated, these violations shall constitute traffic infractions punishable by a fine of not more than that provided for a Class 4 misdemeanor under § 18.2-11. Ran a red light? Not a criminal. DUI? Criminal.
    - tbyehl 9y ago
      Traffic tickets are crimes in some places. OCGA 40-6-1(a): > unless otherwise declared in this chapter with respect to particular offenses, it is a misdemeanor for any person to do any act forbidden or fail to perform any act required in this chapter. Upside, we're entitled to real jury trials.
- chadgeidel 9y ago
  How many laws on the books does the average citizen break every day? Are all crimes equal? If they are not equal, does every lawbreaker deserve to be painted with the same brush? I would suggest this line of reasoning - "they are all criminals" - is not productive. We all are criminals. Should we all be treated as such?
- jaggi1 9y ago
  Check the list of people pardoned by George W Bush. Most of them should not have been in jail in first place. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_pardoned_by_George_W._Bush https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_pardoned_by_Geo...
misja111 9y ago
Yes the thought of it is horrible, but isn't it part of the purpose of criminal punishments to scare away people from committing crimes?
- JustSomeNobody 9y ago
  The working while in prison part or the not being released early part? I personally don't mind inmates working while in prison. What I disagree with is the inmates not being allowed to be released early because the state wants them to keep working. I don't think having to work while in prison is going to scare any would-be offender straight. And thinking about inmates not being released early is only going to piss off everyone.
- steego 9y ago
  I get it. However, if criminal punishment actually scared people away from committing crimes, why are our incarceration rates are so high? You'd think a country with mandatory minimum sentences and capital punishment to deter a lot of crime, but it appears it simply doesn't work. One theory I read (I can't find the source ATM) posited deterrence tends not work against people who tend to go to prison because people who go to prison statistically have a poorer sense of risk/reward. So what do you do? Personally, I think it depends on the type of crime. First, we need to recognize that some of our policies incentivize crime, especially the illicit drug market. People with a poor sense of risk/reward will naturally gravitate to this line of work because they probably respond a lot more to the reward than the risk. There may be a population that is deterred by criminal punishments and one could argue it makes sense to keep criminal punishments to simply deter that population. I don't disagree with that, but I do think we really need to reassess whether criminal punishment is the universal deterrence some people make it out to be. Our best crime prevention policy may simply be removing or poisoning incentive.
- sharemywin 9y ago
  Except it's a horrible deterrent and many of our laws a just a waste(ie. drug laws) of taxpayers money.
- maxerickson 9y ago
ythn 9y ago
> The thought of it is barbaric and horrible. Know what else is barbaric and horrible? The crimes some of the "slaves" commit
- devmunchies 9y ago
  Any child abusers or rapists arguably deserve it, but not to the benefit of a private company. And they shouldn't be required to work imo.
  - shrimp_emoji 9y ago
    Adult abusers or rapists deserve better though.
    - drdeca 9y ago
      I don't think the comment meant "child [abusers or rapists]" but rather "[child abusers] or rapists". i.e. those who either are [abusers of children], or are [any kind of rapist].
      - devmunchies 9y ago
        yes, I meant the latter.
  - BearGoesChirp 9y ago
    Even those classes of people include people who don't deserve it, given the extent of crimes that fall under those labels. Consider a parent being charged with child abuse for letting their child play alone outside, much like parents of old. Or consider cases that fall right outside the limits of Romeo and Juliet clauses.

kapauldo 9y ago

Let's not get carried away, they are criminals who committed crimes.

wavefunction 9y ago
Then let's make their slavery part of the official statute rather than claim we're not also committing crimes.
- aswanson 9y ago
  Slavery is already legal in the US under the 13th amendment if one commits a crime. It's literally the highest law of the land.
  - wavefunction 9y ago
    Is slavery enumerated as one of the punishments levied by the Court? It is not. It may be allowed by the Constitution but it is a significant extra punishment levied on offenders that should be part of their actual punitive phase, if that is what society wants.
  - mcherm 9y ago
    > Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction. The 13th amendment specifically permits "slavery" as a punishment for those convicted of a crime.
    - anigbrowl 9y ago
      Yes, that's what the poster above you said.
- gnode 9y ago
  It essentially is, by exception. The text of the Thriteenth Amendment states: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."
conanbatt 9y ago
Being convicted to slavery is justice now?
- crusso 9y ago
  I don't like the over-use of the word "slavery". Slavery was the capturing of innocent human beings and then forcing them and their progeny to do labor in perpetuity. It was utterly dehumanizing and undeserved treatment. We do a disservice to the meaning of slavery in the USA by calling everything slavery: taxation, prison work, marriage, etc.
  - lovich 9y ago
    So other than the progeny part, how is prison labor not exactly what you said? People are literally captured, and based on overturned convictions at least some percentage are innocent. These people are then forced to work and can have their sentence extended arbitrarily by bureaucrats and not the court system. Based on the California example the system even tries to keep people working when given a court order to release people. The only thing preventing the in perpetuity part is basically the good graces of the bureacracy. I do agree about the overuse of the term in other situations however
    - mcherm 9y ago
      > and can have their sentence extended arbitrarily by bureaucrats and not the court system That part, at least, is not technically correct.
    - danielam 9y ago
      You're confusing things. There is a difference between forced hard labor as just (and thus commensurate) punishment for a crime and actual, particular abuses committed by the justice system. There is nothing wrong with forced hard labor as a punishment for a crime to the degree required by justice (and frankly, many crimes deserve far worse). There IS something wrong with inflicting pain on someone who is innocent, esp. when those inflicting the pain do so without authority, without sufficient justification or in excess.
Broken_Hippo 9y ago
So what? Ever had a traffic ticket? Stolen something when you were young? Yes? Technically, you are a criminal then. You just didn't get caught or were a minor criminal, according to law. Besides. Anyone in prison/jail is still human and I truly believe this gives you some rights, including the right not to be used as slave labor. After all, we've already taken away their freedom.
- jcranmer 9y ago
  Traffic tickets are not crimes, they're not even misdemeanors. For example, the Virginia code says: > "Traffic infraction" means a violation of law punishable as provided in § 46.2-113, which is neither a felony nor a misdemeanor. § 46.2-113: > [ ... ] Unless otherwise stated, these violations shall constitute traffic infractions punishable by a fine of not more than that provided for a Class 4 misdemeanor under § 18.2-11. Ran a red light? Not a criminal. DUI? Criminal.
  - tbyehl 9y ago
    Traffic tickets are crimes in some places. OCGA 40-6-1(a): > unless otherwise declared in this chapter with respect to particular offenses, it is a misdemeanor for any person to do any act forbidden or fail to perform any act required in this chapter. Upside, we're entitled to real jury trials.
chadgeidel 9y ago
How many laws on the books does the average citizen break every day? Are all crimes equal? If they are not equal, does every lawbreaker deserve to be painted with the same brush? I would suggest this line of reasoning - "they are all criminals" - is not productive. We all are criminals. Should we all be treated as such?
jaggi1 9y ago
Check the list of people pardoned by George W Bush. Most of them should not have been in jail in first place. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_pardoned_by_George_W._Bush https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_pardoned_by_Geo...

misja111 9y ago

Yes the thought of it is horrible, but isn't it part of the purpose of criminal punishments to scare away people from committing crimes?

JustSomeNobody 9y ago
The working while in prison part or the not being released early part? I personally don't mind inmates working while in prison. What I disagree with is the inmates not being allowed to be released early because the state wants them to keep working. I don't think having to work while in prison is going to scare any would-be offender straight. And thinking about inmates not being released early is only going to piss off everyone.
steego 9y ago
I get it. However, if criminal punishment actually scared people away from committing crimes, why are our incarceration rates are so high? You'd think a country with mandatory minimum sentences and capital punishment to deter a lot of crime, but it appears it simply doesn't work. One theory I read (I can't find the source ATM) posited deterrence tends not work against people who tend to go to prison because people who go to prison statistically have a poorer sense of risk/reward. So what do you do? Personally, I think it depends on the type of crime. First, we need to recognize that some of our policies incentivize crime, especially the illicit drug market. People with a poor sense of risk/reward will naturally gravitate to this line of work because they probably respond a lot more to the reward than the risk. There may be a population that is deterred by criminal punishments and one could argue it makes sense to keep criminal punishments to simply deter that population. I don't disagree with that, but I do think we really need to reassess whether criminal punishment is the universal deterrence some people make it out to be. Our best crime prevention policy may simply be removing or poisoning incentive.
sharemywin 9y ago
Except it's a horrible deterrent and many of our laws a just a waste(ie. drug laws) of taxpayers money.
maxerickson 9y ago

ythn 9y ago

> The thought of it is barbaric and horrible. Know what else is barbaric and horrible? The crimes some of the "slaves" commit

devmunchies 9y ago
Any child abusers or rapists arguably deserve it, but not to the benefit of a private company. And they shouldn't be required to work imo.
- shrimp_emoji 9y ago
  Adult abusers or rapists deserve better though.
  - drdeca 9y ago
    I don't think the comment meant "child [abusers or rapists]" but rather "[child abusers] or rapists". i.e. those who either are [abusers of children], or are [any kind of rapist].
    - devmunchies 9y ago
      yes, I meant the latter.
- BearGoesChirp 9y ago
  Even those classes of people include people who don't deserve it, given the extent of crimes that fall under those labels. Consider a parent being charged with child abuse for letting their child play alone outside, much like parents of old. Or consider cases that fall right outside the limits of Romeo and Juliet clauses.