7 ms·

That really is simply disgusting. Keeping people imprisoned mainly so that they can be used as a source of cheap (borderline free) labour is pure exploitation.

That really is simply disgusting. Keeping people imprisoned mainly so that they can be used as a source of cheap (borderline free) labour is pure exploitation. It really doesn't seem very many steps above slavery. I know that at least in theory people are in prison because they have done something wrong so that them working to in part pay for the cost of their incarceration seems justified but if they should be released but are only being kept as cheap labour then I think that that argument goes completely out the window.

vidarh 9y ago
I don't think it is any steps above slavery. In Norway, partly for this reason, prisoners have the legal right to choose education instead of work. If part of their punishment is meant to be financial restitution, then I believe that should be spelled out in the judgement, and they should be paid market wages for whatever work they do, and that should be garnished accordingly and kept out of the prison system entirely so there is no profit motive to keep people in, and so that the amounts are transparent.
- jorvi 9y ago
  Hell, the European system (rehabilitative instead of punitive) works so well our prisons in The Netherlands are so empty Norway sends us some of their prisoners, presumably because you guys don't want to 'anticipate' by building more jails. We even used some jails as temporary refugee shelter (for those horrified: prisons in The Netherlands are a lot less stark than America).
  - vidarh 9y ago
    It was somewhat amusing that one of the rented prisons is called Norgerhaven. Norge is the Norwegian name for Norway, and in old/conservative Norwegian, "have" is garden (in modern Norwegian it'd be "hage". In Norwegian it halfway sounds like someone who doesn't know Norwegian is trying to say "garden for Norwegians". On a more serious note: The Norwegian prisoners in question actually have to volunteer, and the department of justice have made a "marketing" video to entice prisoners, which led to complaints from prisoners when it turned out they'd exaggerated a bit (some stuff was not ready when the first prisoners arrived). Overall the attitude is very different to the US one. > We even used some jails as temporary refugee shelter (for those horrified: prisons in The Netherlands are a lot less stark than America). Same in Norway. Low security Norwegian prisons have fences no more than normal garden fences for example - they're there to show the prisoners how far they are allowed to go, not to physically stop them, as the type of prisoners sent to those places are more concerned about getting it over and done with than escaping. I think that is an essential element: To give people a chance wherever possible to show they can take responsibility. More serious prisoners too can demonstrate they can be trusted and are serious about rehabilitation and get moved to prisoners without barriers that will actually hold them. After all, if we can't trust them the day before their release, there's no reason why we should suddenly trust them the day after... I'm happy we let these prisoners gradually prove that they are likely to have reformed. And the rehabilitation rates thankfully reflect that people respond to being treated humanely. Maybe one day America gets over its mentality of vengeance.
ClassyJacket 9y ago
>It really doesn't seem very many steps above slavery Zero. It's literally slavery. The thought of it is barbaric and horrible.
- kapauldo 9y ago
  Let's not get carried away, they are criminals who committed crimes.
  - wavefunction 9y ago
    Then let's make their slavery part of the official statute rather than claim we're not also committing crimes.
    - aswanson 9y ago
      Slavery is already legal in the US under the 13th amendment if one commits a crime. It's literally the highest law of the land.
      - wavefunction 9y ago
        Is slavery enumerated as one of the punishments levied by the Court? It is not. It may be allowed by the Constitution but it is a significant extra punishment levied on offenders that should be part of their actual punitive phase, if that is what society wants.
      - mcherm 9y ago
        > Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction. The 13th amendment specifically permits "slavery" as a punishment for those convicted of a crime.
        anigbrowl 9y ago
        Yes, that's what the poster above you said.
lightedman 9y ago
"Keeping people imprisoned mainly so that they can be used as a source of cheap (borderline free) labour is pure exploitation" California is well-known for this, and Riverside County is one of the primary counties responsible. When you walk into the courtroom, there's a sign that says "Attention CUSTOMERS" instead of "Attention Citizens." Lets you know right off the bat that these people are after nothing but money and should be charged under RICO statutes.
jaggi1 9y ago
> It really doesn't seem very many steps above slavery. If I ever go through that system there is no way in hell I am coming out of the prison "reformed". Today when I look at a young kid I feel compassion and I will help the kid in need. After coming out of an US Prison I am likely to see everyone else as "these people were responsible for putting me through hell". That lack of compassion is way more worse. I am not surprised that so many people turn out to be repeat offenders.
- rdtsc 9y ago
  Before there was strong for-profit bit in the mix (but it was always there) but the main idea was that rehabilitation is too complicated and doesn't work. Something to the effect of "Oh look we tried, half-hardheartedly, it failed, there is no point wasting time, these people never learn so just lock them up away from the society for as long as possible". That was always going hand in hand with tough-on-crime politics and a general sadistic undercurrent in the American culture that celebrates punishment for punishment's sake. But once the for profit element was added into the mix there is an actual disincentive to rehabilitate people as it would mean a direct reduction in profits. So before it was bad but this is like adding some gasoline into the fire. There was for example, the case of a judge in PA who had a deal with the local prison/juvenile center of sorts where he was sending teenagers in for minor infractions and was getting kickbacks. Prison industrial complex also lobbies the government to keep the War on Drugs going because a reform there also would directly cut profits for them. There even a whole ecosystem of predators exploiting every single angle possible to milk the prisoners and their families' money and labor. Down to telecom companies with ridiculously expensive charges when prisoners talk to their loved ones, to companies selling food (the commissary) and so on.
  - jaggi1 9y ago
    > Prison industrial complex also lobbies the government to keep the War on Drugs going because a reform there also would directly cut profits for them. All that system is made possible by American society who craps its pants over every minor thing. I will not blame profit seeking companies here but the people.
dragonwriter 9y ago
> It really doesn't seem very many steps above slavery. It is exactly slavery, and it is the explicit exception to the US Constitutional abolition of slavery in the 13th Amendment. It's also an explicit exception to the international prohibition on slavery in the ICCPR.

vidarh 9y ago

I don't think it is any steps above slavery. In Norway, partly for this reason, prisoners have the legal right to choose education instead of work. If part of their punishment is meant to be financial restitution, then I believe that should be spelled out in the judgement, and they should be paid market wages for whatever work they do, and that should be garnished accordingly and kept out of the prison system entirely so there is no profit motive to keep people in, and so that the amounts are transparent.

jorvi 9y ago
Hell, the European system (rehabilitative instead of punitive) works so well our prisons in The Netherlands are so empty Norway sends us some of their prisoners, presumably because you guys don't want to 'anticipate' by building more jails. We even used some jails as temporary refugee shelter (for those horrified: prisons in The Netherlands are a lot less stark than America).
- vidarh 9y ago
  It was somewhat amusing that one of the rented prisons is called Norgerhaven. Norge is the Norwegian name for Norway, and in old/conservative Norwegian, "have" is garden (in modern Norwegian it'd be "hage". In Norwegian it halfway sounds like someone who doesn't know Norwegian is trying to say "garden for Norwegians". On a more serious note: The Norwegian prisoners in question actually have to volunteer, and the department of justice have made a "marketing" video to entice prisoners, which led to complaints from prisoners when it turned out they'd exaggerated a bit (some stuff was not ready when the first prisoners arrived). Overall the attitude is very different to the US one. > We even used some jails as temporary refugee shelter (for those horrified: prisons in The Netherlands are a lot less stark than America). Same in Norway. Low security Norwegian prisons have fences no more than normal garden fences for example - they're there to show the prisoners how far they are allowed to go, not to physically stop them, as the type of prisoners sent to those places are more concerned about getting it over and done with than escaping. I think that is an essential element: To give people a chance wherever possible to show they can take responsibility. More serious prisoners too can demonstrate they can be trusted and are serious about rehabilitation and get moved to prisoners without barriers that will actually hold them. After all, if we can't trust them the day before their release, there's no reason why we should suddenly trust them the day after... I'm happy we let these prisoners gradually prove that they are likely to have reformed. And the rehabilitation rates thankfully reflect that people respond to being treated humanely. Maybe one day America gets over its mentality of vengeance.

ClassyJacket 9y ago

>It really doesn't seem very many steps above slavery Zero. It's literally slavery. The thought of it is barbaric and horrible.

kapauldo 9y ago
Let's not get carried away, they are criminals who committed crimes.
- wavefunction 9y ago
  Then let's make their slavery part of the official statute rather than claim we're not also committing crimes.
  - aswanson 9y ago
    Slavery is already legal in the US under the 13th amendment if one commits a crime. It's literally the highest law of the land.
    - wavefunction 9y ago
      Is slavery enumerated as one of the punishments levied by the Court? It is not. It may be allowed by the Constitution but it is a significant extra punishment levied on offenders that should be part of their actual punitive phase, if that is what society wants.
    - mcherm 9y ago
      > Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction. The 13th amendment specifically permits "slavery" as a punishment for those convicted of a crime.
      - anigbrowl 9y ago
        Yes, that's what the poster above you said.

lightedman 9y ago

"Keeping people imprisoned mainly so that they can be used as a source of cheap (borderline free) labour is pure exploitation" California is well-known for this, and Riverside County is one of the primary counties responsible. When you walk into the courtroom, there's a sign that says "Attention CUSTOMERS" instead of "Attention Citizens." Lets you know right off the bat that these people are after nothing but money and should be charged under RICO statutes.

jaggi1 9y ago

> It really doesn't seem very many steps above slavery. If I ever go through that system there is no way in hell I am coming out of the prison "reformed". Today when I look at a young kid I feel compassion and I will help the kid in need. After coming out of an US Prison I am likely to see everyone else as "these people were responsible for putting me through hell". That lack of compassion is way more worse. I am not surprised that so many people turn out to be repeat offenders.

rdtsc 9y ago
Before there was strong for-profit bit in the mix (but it was always there) but the main idea was that rehabilitation is too complicated and doesn't work. Something to the effect of "Oh look we tried, half-hardheartedly, it failed, there is no point wasting time, these people never learn so just lock them up away from the society for as long as possible". That was always going hand in hand with tough-on-crime politics and a general sadistic undercurrent in the American culture that celebrates punishment for punishment's sake. But once the for profit element was added into the mix there is an actual disincentive to rehabilitate people as it would mean a direct reduction in profits. So before it was bad but this is like adding some gasoline into the fire. There was for example, the case of a judge in PA who had a deal with the local prison/juvenile center of sorts where he was sending teenagers in for minor infractions and was getting kickbacks. Prison industrial complex also lobbies the government to keep the War on Drugs going because a reform there also would directly cut profits for them. There even a whole ecosystem of predators exploiting every single angle possible to milk the prisoners and their families' money and labor. Down to telecom companies with ridiculously expensive charges when prisoners talk to their loved ones, to companies selling food (the commissary) and so on.
- jaggi1 9y ago
  > Prison industrial complex also lobbies the government to keep the War on Drugs going because a reform there also would directly cut profits for them. All that system is made possible by American society who craps its pants over every minor thing. I will not blame profit seeking companies here but the people.

dragonwriter 9y ago

> It really doesn't seem very many steps above slavery. It is exactly slavery, and it is the explicit exception to the US Constitutional abolition of slavery in the 13th Amendment. It's also an explicit exception to the international prohibition on slavery in the ICCPR.