14 ms·
Wow, give them 5 more years and they will catch up to where the Surface is now!
by BatFastard 9y ago
Wow, give them 5 more years and they will catch up to where the Surface is now!
- ChuckMcM 9y agoIt is interesting to watch two companies converging on to the same product space, I suggested to Panos that my choice between updating an iPad or getting a new Surface would be whether or not they include LTE connectivity in the Surface. The thing Microsoft still doesn't seem to internalize is that 'wifi only' is a disqualifying feature for many people they would like to convert.
- jrs95 9y agothe new surface pro is going to have LTE
- BatFastard 9y agoExcellent, seems like ALL new devices should have that built in as an option. Along with SMS and Voice!
- seanp2k2 9y agoConsider how much more common this would be if wireless ISPs added more reasonable options for adding additional devices to your plan. More devices which would eat through your crazy low transfer cap more quickly...which they currently charge you quite a bit to tack on.
- ghaff 9y agoI honestly don't have much interest as things stand. I'm on a theoretically unlimited AT&T plan for my phone. I might pay a few extra bucks to get other devices onto cellular. But, for the fees as they exist today, I'll just make do with my phone if WiFi isn't available.
- amygdyl 9y agoI'm almost surelybeing inadvertently obtuse, but how in the heck is it legal to restrict my use of the service I pay for. Is there a case law reference easily pointed out?
- CPLX 9y agoIndeed. I've often wondered why my Macbook Pro can't just have this option. I would use it fairly infrequently but when I did it would be so damm handy.
- artursapek 9y agoI bought a new Thinkpad last fall and it has a slot for a SIM card. What I don't know is where on earth I can get a good cellular internet plan I can use with this! Just something for occasional light use (emergency SSH sessions, etc).
- swombat 9y agoIf you ever come to the UK, Three offers plans that have free roaming in about 60 countries including the US. Works with PAYG too.
- hn_user2 9y agoI would pop a Ting SIM card in. https://ting.com https://ting.com Sprint / T-mobile network, so not as good coverage, but $6 a month and just pay for what you use for data.
- throwanem 9y agoExcellent customer service, too. I'm probably going to another provider soon, since I've been using my cell plan heavily enough for a while now to make Ting not wholly economical - but I'm probably going to keep the account active and the SIM in my satchel, just because it's worth $6 a month to have the option if I need it.
- artursapek 9y agoAwesome, hadn't heard of this. Very responsive customer service. Thanks for the reference. Just placed an order for a SIM card. Hope it works with Linux! :)
- kartickv 9y agoI'll go one step further — any pro tablet, and any $1000+ device, should have it builtin. It doesn't add much cost. You can get an entire smartphone with LTE for less than $100. So maybe the LTE costs $20.
- ChuckMcM 9y agoInteresting, it wasn't in the coverage I read on the announcement in May but I see on the web site they have added : "We wanted to ensure Surface Pro was a transformative device – so we also have added LTE Advanced, available in units shipping later this year." Makes me wonder how much later, later is? Thanks for pointing that out!
- amygdyl 9y agoLikewise thank you for your information! Now I have a dilemma: I'm forced to retire my SP2 and the SP5 is any day going to be debited unless I cancel. This hiatus looks like just how I'm going to be reviewing the new HP Spectre tablet instead. I was seriously intrigued, especially by the 3000 * 2000 display. I guess I will find out soon enough. Something tells me that I have room for disappointment plenty here, tho'...
- wamatt 9y agoIn the past I've been adamant on buying the LTE+Wifi iPads (because more options right?). In hindsight however, the cellular feature was barely used. Have you considered an LTE mobile hotspot? It can be left charged (but off) in your laptop bag for days/weeks and only used for travel or as needed. I found it to be super useful and not much hassle at all. Also multiple devices can connect rather simply. Lastly, a benefit of this sort of decoupling, is it allows for using a different network carrier to the mobile phone, thus effectively increasing one's LTE coverage.
- dmix 9y agoIt still must be nice to be able to pull out your tablet-esque tablet and be connected to the internet anywhere you go. Especially as CAT-6 LTE is being rolled out in my city (Toronto) with comparable speeds as my home interest in recent years. This will definitely become a must-have feature in future machines for me. I would no longer have to worry whether or not my local coffeeshop's internet is running slow or takes 5 minutes to properly connect to some random public wifi at a new place. Public WIFI is prevelant but still very hit/miss. A consitent fast LTE connection would be quite the luxury. It'd also totally kill SMS and telephone plans which I'm looking forward to the most. Encrypted E2E crypto for both voice/text will be a great incentive for this too.
- killjoywashere 9y agoThe LTE is faster because your ISP is a douche. It is insane to ever, ever think transmission over airwaves can rival same-day wired capacity. They're just assholes.
- snewk 9y agoI'm not sure what you're trying to say here
- ChuckMcM 9y agoI try a lot of stuff. I'm on my fourth iPad, second Surface Pro, my third Macbook Pro, my fourth ThinkPad. I have also had a Newton, Palm Pilot (various), Handspring, Nook (ebook), and Android tablets (most interesting being a 13" one from Lenovo with a built in projector) I use the Verizon LTE network on my iPad pro all the time. When I'm on the train, when I'm travelling hither and yon. I don't browse/read/search on my phone (which I use for actually calling and texting people). Not saying that I represent a typical consumer but I certainly represent at least a cohort of 1 consumers :-). I had a MiFi for a while (company purchased), but found it consistently had lower performance then the native networking of my iPad and it was easy to lose if I wasn't paying attention. Twice I encountered times when it wasn't charged when I needed it. On analyzing it overall I found that because it wasn't forced to be charged when I charged my laptop/tablet, it suffered from sometimes being missed when it needed to be charged. That the radio is by definition charged when the iPad is charged avoids that failure mode for me. When travelling with my SPro4 I would sometimes 'hot spot' it to my tablet. Awkward but it works. In the inversion that I still marvel about the software availability on the iPad has always been better than the availability of software on the SPro4. The SPro4 has a better (to my taste) drawing experience than the iPad Pro does. And both the iPad Pro and SPro4 are way better than previous stylus attempts on capacitive screens. The iPad has a much better 'tablet only' experience for me, and a much worse 'docked' experience. SPro4 with a Surface Dock and a couple of UHD monitors is literally indistinguishable from the NUC i7 box I use as a desktop. There is nothing (yet) that I can attach to my iPad Pro to make it work like a Macbook Pro (I know I know, different OS, processor etc.) As a result I create more in general on my SPro4, consume more on my iPad Pro. I travel with my iPad in my hand and my SPro in my backpack. Clearly I have been unable to leave one behind and just use the other so there is some more convergence to go :-)
- Roritharr 9y agoCan you tell Panos the next time you see him that he should have included Thunderbolt 3 in the Surface Series? That decision alone made them not viable to buy for our company. We rely heavily on Thunderbolt 3 Docks in our new offices that work for Windows and Mac. No such thing possible with the Surface Products. It's such a game-changer to be able to just plug in your device wherever there is a free spot and have a full featured 2x 4k + Gbit Ethernet + Charging Workplace via one cable.
- ChuckMcM 9y agoWhich dock do you use? I suspect that the choice of whether or not to include Thunderbolt 3 is constrained by the available chip sets from Intel rather than a design intent from Microsoft. Looks like Intel is going to make that an option however (https://liliputing.com/2017/05/intel-thunderbolt-3-will-integrated-next-gen-chips.html https://liliputing.com/2017/05/intel-thunderbolt-3-will-inte...) so I would not doubt to see it brought out on laptops that use chip sets that incorporate it.
- Roritharr 9y agoWe got a bunch from the first batch of Caldigits Thunderbolt Station 3. We're eyeing the ones from OWC/Elgato/Belkin too, but they are simply not available until later this month. I wouldn't be so sure regarding the design constraints, the Dell XPS 13 has very similar parts to the Surface Pro, but has been offering the Thunderbolt Port ever since Skylake.
- ChuckMcM 9y agoThanks, no overheating? The XPS 13 is a nice laptop, it isn't "all in the display" though, which when you talk about volume and battery time it counts. Currently from what I can see from teardowns (https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Microsoft+Surface+Pro+4+Teardown/51568 https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Microsoft+Surface+Pro+4+Tear...) there isn't enough space for the current Intel discrete solution (but there is in the XPS 13 and there would have been in the Surface Book if they put it in the keyboard half.)
- isaacn 9y agoThe new Surface Pro 5 has a LTE option: https://www.theverge.com/2017/5/23/15674198/microsoft-surface-pro-price-features-availability https://www.theverge.com/2017/5/23/15674198/microsoft-surfac... - So, are you getting the new Surface Pro 5?
- ChuckMcM 9y agoWhen it becomes available I do not doubt that I will get one :-) Best estimates though are 'fall'. And as the article states, there is still a lot of questions around it: "Microsoft isn’t revealing exact pricing or a release date, or even what processor will power the Surface Pro with LTE. It's possible that Microsoft could opt for an ARM-powered Surface. LTE versions should be available later this year."
- dyarosla 9y agoLike many people, I would much prefer an Apple based OS to MS. Feature-parity is not the point. Welcome to Apple in general: Feature parity has never been the point.
- SmellTheGlove 9y agoOSX compared to Windows, sure. But iOS over Windows? Come on now.
- allover 9y agoDepends what you're using it for. If it's mostly tablet-y things (consuming stuff, casual infront-of-TV use), iOS is clearly superior. You can try and tear the iPads from my parents' cold dead hands. If you want to 'get work done', sure you'd have to take Windows over iOS. But then Apple users would be reaching for a Macbook instead. I get why people want 'both' from the Surface, but to an Apple user like me, Windows doesn't appeal for either use-case. I'll take macOS for work and iOS for casual use, and put up with separate devices for now.
- SmellTheGlove 9y agoRight, but this submission is about the iPad Pro announcement, not iPads in general. I have an iPad. It gets used for exactly what you describe. Work gets done on my Macbook. I like iOS on my iPhone. I like OSX on my Macbook. The only thing I'm pushing back on is the idea that iOS (via the iPad Pro) is set to consume my Macbook.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- allover 9y agoThat was not at all clear from your comment.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- briandear 9y agoWhat's the refresh rate of the Surface? 60Hz -- when on battery power it's 30Hz. The iPad Pro is 120Hz. It has a 12 core GPU, a six-core CPU. That's huge for content creators.
- izacus 9y agoHuh? You can't just compare numbers. Surface Pros GPU and CPU in i7 configuration are significanty faster than iPad Pros.
- zepto 9y agoNope
- jaegerpicker 9y agoIt's also 3x-4x the price depending on config. Surface Pro's are laptops with touch screens. They have basically no quality touch apps available. iOS has a HUGE lead in the app ecosystem department for touch based apps.
- NiveaGeForce 9y agoThere are plenty of quality touch apps for Windows now https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows10/comments/6f6ha8/can_someone_recommend_some_good_uwp_apps/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows10/comments/6f6ha8/can_someo...
- yunyu 9y ago1. You can't just compare core counts, think Mediatek vs Qualcomm 2. Surfaces run 60fps on battery, not sure where you got that from
- blazespin 9y agoNo, this is completely untrue. You can't just shove Windows into a touch based cloud world. You had to start over with something like iOS. Plus Apple is pretty user friendly, something Windows never really got.
- baq 9y agouser friendliness is in the eye of the beholder nowadays, perhaps the adage was true a decade ago, but now it's more what you're used to.
- exergy 9y agoThis all sounds more like an opinion that you're stating as fact. I own an SP3. It has it's problems: sucky trackpad, average battery life etc. But touchscreens are invaluable. They save me minor inconveniences so many times, that I will refuse to buy a laptop without it. Also, I really like Windows 8.1. Power users are perfectly capable of customizing the machine to get rid of Metro, and have shortcut keys etc., and once you do these things, there are simply more Windows software than Mac software in my line of work (mechanical engineering).
- voltagex_ 9y agoI often forget that my XPS 9350 has a touchscreen in it - do you have any tips for getting more use out of it in Windows 10?
- exergy 9y agoTbh, if you're getting by fine without it, why deliberately look to find uses for it. Generally speaking, I hate trackpads, especially for things like dismissing message boxes or scrolling. So those two are where I use the touch panel the most.
- reitanqild 9y agoPlus Apple is pretty user friendly... edit: lets add the rest of the quote here so it is obvious why this comment is harmful: ", something Windows never really got." for some users. For this user, who was enthusiastic to finally get a Mac it was tragic. I have used and liked Gnome and Mate in a number of configurations including Gnome 2 and 3. KDE 3 and 5. Elementary. Windows 3.1, 95, 98, xp, 7, 8.1 and 10. Mac OS X was a productivity nightmare to me for three years. I still belive that others like it and are more efficient with it but ... please stop talking like this is generally established facts.
- nebabyte 9y agoAgreed; too little too late.
- y_u_no_rust 9y agoWindows10 is a crap for tablets, Windows 8.1 was passable but they gave up
- Eric_WVGG 9y agoFunny, I watched this and it reminded me of a leaked Microsoft executive looking at OS X "Tiger" and saying "it's like getting to use Longhorn two years early" (which is to say, iOS 11 makes Surface look archaic, IMHO)
- obstbraende 9y agodo you have more info on that quote? I'd like to read more about that time, but google failed me
- Eric_WVGG 9y agohttp://www.vanityfair.com/news/business/2012/08/microsoft-lost-mojo-steve-ballmer http://www.vanityfair.com/news/business/2012/08/microsoft-lo... Then, in June 2004, Steve Jobs announced that Apple was releasing its new operating system, called “Tiger.” And inside Microsoft, jaws dropped. Tiger did much of what was planned for Longhorn—except that it worked. E-mails flew around Microsoft, expressing dismay about the quality of Tiger. To executives’ disbelief, it contained functional equivalents of Avalon and WinFS. “It was fucking amazing,” wrote Lenn Pryor, part of the Longhorn team. “It is like I just got a free pass to Longhorn land today.” Vic Gundotra, another member of the group, tried out Tiger. “Their Avalon competitor (core video, core image) was hot,” he wrote. “I have the cool widgets (dashboard) running on my MAC right now with all the effects [Jobs] showed on stage. I’ve had no crashes in 5 hours.”
- gumby 9y ago> Vic Gundotra, another member of the group, ...wrote “...I’ve had no crashes in 5 hours.” That's like a parody of what a Microsoft hater would say, yet it's an actual quote from Microsoft. Makes me feel sorry for them in retrospect.
- intended 9y agoSomehow they managed to turn it around enough that there's discussions in this thread about a windows surface and an iPad Pro. Which is something in itself.
- hawski 9y agoIt's an iSurface. It looks pretty similar. There will be people that will think that the Surface is a Microsoft's copy of this device.
- cm2187 9y agoWell, I am waiting for both to realise it is a much better UX when the pen is stored inside the tablet as opposed to being lost in a bag and never available when needed.
- seanmcdirmid 9y agoI'm kind of exhausted on Surface after using it for a couple of years. It just isn't that reliable yet, it isn't something I can depend on like an iPad, and often when I turn it on it wants to spend a couple of hours updating. I really want to like it, but...I might give an iPad Pro a try to play in the stylus space.
- pinky1417 9y agoThis. I have a Surface Pro 4 and it's garbage for work. I've had two MacBooks, currently use a Win 10 desktop, have a 6 year old iPad, and the Surface is my least favorite device. Physical keyboard doesn't work well on a lap, mediocre touchpad, on screen keyboard only pops up with certain apps, tons of updates, and awful reliability. Surface seem to increase productivity in theory/during demos, but it's a jenky experience in practice. iPad Pro, even with iOS instead of a full-fledged OS, looks waaaay more appealing.
- amygdyl 9y agoI'm yet to see any long term review on YouTube that explains the way anyone who finds the SP a terrible experience has so much difficulty. I'm genuine in my interest as it's a leap of faith even though I have been a committed happy SP2 user a long while now. I'm not sure either why if the device is so counterproductive for a individual, why did they not sell or their employer finally relent and provide alternative since the productivity cost would be considerable. The only other common features of such comments, is the similar grass is greener conclusion. This isn't consistent with a actual concerted effort to address a problem, the first impression I get anyhow.
- seanmcdirmid 9y agoIt isn't terrible, it is just...a laptop. It is slow to turn on, slow to login and unlock, it likes to update a lot, it isn't as casual iPad at all. I find myself not using it because my older iPad is just easier to pick up and use... I really want to use my surface more, it is really nice. Just it straddles the worlds between PC and tablet too much.
- marricks 9y agoOr give Microsoft 2 years to regress back to iPad’s closed app store with the advent of Microsoft’s Windows S ;) Seriously though, Surface is built on Windows, iPad on iOS, so two entirely different approaches to a tablet device.
- coldtea 9y agoThe bottom of the market?
- imaginenore 9y agoNah, it will take them another decade to make the simplest tasks, like copying an MP3 to the device, at least a bit reasonable. iTunes alone stops me from using Apple phones and tablets.
- gumby 9y agoUmm, if it's on your dropbox or other filesystem you can use it on your iPad, no?
- imaginenore 9y agoIf you're going to make assumptions, you might as well just assume the MP3 magically appears on your device. You see, I can USB-plug almost any Android device into any Windows or Linux machine, and transfer any files either way without installing any software. It just works. Even with Dropbox, what if it's a 10GB file? Are you going to upload and then download it? Do you not see how ridiculous that is?
- gumby 9y ago> Even with Dropbox, what if it's a 10GB file? Are you going to upload and then download it? Do you not see how ridiculous that is? I don't, but it sounds like my use case is different from yours, so I guess what seems absurd to you is normal to me and vice versa.
- wor3q 9y agoUsing a tablet to watch a movie on a plane is rather common use case.
- jsjohnst 9y agoWith the right (free!) app, what you described works for iPads too.
- SpikeDad 9y agoHaha. I work in a public Library and the few people that have a Surface are always coming up to us for tech support. No one can figure out Windows 10 on a tablet. As usual Microsoft thinks it's Windows everywhere strategy makes sense - it doesn't. Tables are tables and computers are computers and they cross but they don't work the same and need considered and individual interfaces to make best use.
- arkades 9y agoI disagree. I think the Surface is just not meant to scratch the same itch as iPad. iPad has always had an interface, like the rest of iOS, oriented towards anyone competent enough to point at things. Power users could try to work past that, but it wasn't intended for that. Surface Book seems to me like it was built for the more tech-competent demographic. The issue isn't with "windows everywhere." It's that "surface book probably wasn't meant for deployment in a public library."
- aeontech 9y agoI strongly disagree. Your comment shows a very common view among us techies that being a member of "tech-competent demographic", is somehow a badge of honor, or at least of accomplishment. It's an accomplishment to be sure, but an accomplishment of little more than our willingness to sacrifice untold man-hours on learning the intricacies of near-universally bad UI inflicted on us all (usually in our youth, when time we are willing to puzzle out the details in something that interests us is nearly unlimited). This experience molds our perspective on what is "normal" and "usable" UI, because our minds are already bent into the kitten-bonsai shapes that make it mostly-intuitive to us, and where we can use pattern matching to make a reasonable guess at a solution, iterating quickly with each failure. This process of "encounter unfamiliarity, guesswork, random clicking, reading docs, google other mentions of error, guesswork, final solution" is so quick and natural for us that we forget that most people do not have this mental toolkit ready. When a user with no previous exposure to it comes along and is confused, we tend to dismiss their concerns as trivial, because the answers to their bafflements are obvious to us through previous experience, and the process of searching out unknowns is so ingrained. The actual fact that "tech-competent demographic" is a reasonable term to use in a conversation at all is in and of itself a bit of a tragic commentary on the sad state of our UX design as an industry. ---- I'm exaggerating above, perhaps, but not by much. Apple's accomplishment is that they actually manage to make UI that is intuitive to normal humans at best, and mostly not too terrible at worst. There's still a lot of failures even in their designs, but I think it's unfair to say that Apple's goals are to intentionally frustrate power users, as you seem to say. I would say, when power users hit those limitations, it's really just another reminder that intuitive and powerful UI is a really really difficult problem with no single correct objective answer for any given problem. It's actually rather amusing how vocal the power users are when they hit limitations of the unfamiliar systems, and how dismissive they are when normal humans hit the limitations of the systems they are already familiar with. The problem is with UI/UX in both cases, they are two sides of the same experience, but it seems difficult for some people to recognize that. And of course, when new UI/UX is designed by people whose minds are already shaped by the existing UI conventions, it will tend to follow the same patterns. Software UI is a near-monoculture currently, and the huge infrastructure of existing code and libraries makes it difficult for anyone to explore new concepts, and it takes time for any new concepts to grow into their strength. iOS took many releases to really hit its stride in terms of features and usability, and a lot of the speed of progress is really limited by time and resources available. Throwing more people at the problem doesn't speed it up or make the quality better - most things really do need to be worked out by a small/medium team, so it does take time and experience. (PS: I think Surface is an awesome piece of kit, and I can't wait for Microsoft to keep making it better and better - but I think it's silly to pretend that the Windows touch UI is good as it is because it's targeted at power users - no, it's just still really really young, and needs to grow and improve more. I'm certain there must be very smart people at Microsoft working very hard on making the UX better)
- abawany 9y agoHa. I have an HP Elite X2 1012 and I love it. Windows 10, user-upgradable parts (recently updated the SSD to 512GB), running Bash/Ubuntu for Windows, no moving parts, wonderful keyboard, and superb stylus. I have been using Windows Tablet PC designs since 2003 and this is the best one yet. I can do serious development work on it and then detach the keyboard and get down to a good read (Zinio, Kindle, built-in PDF reader app for my scanned books.)
- sleeplesss 9y agoTotally agree!
- digi_owl 9y agoI just hope MS makes it easier to use UWP file managers. Operating file explorer by touch is a right pain, too many overlapping interactions (mark, drag&drop, scroll). And right now if i want to use a UWP file manager outside of some designated folders require me to fiddle with the win32 file picker, that share problems with the age old file explorer.
- charred_toast 9y agoYeah, the Surface is such an exciting product. "Get the iPad that everyone is talking about! *cough, I meant Surface"
- synicalx 9y agoIf it takes them 5 years to make a reliable, enterprise-ready version of the Surface then thats ok with me