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The Exquisitely English (and Lucrative) World of London Clerks

121 points by ductionist 9y ago

bowmessage 9y ago
Seems like a business ready for some automation.
- Nav_Panel 9y ago
  My first thought was how plausible it'd be to write an algorithm to do the client-barrister matching for you, but I get the vibe from this article that the relationship between barristers and clerks is more about some sort of unique social tradition than it is about the actual work of client matching and fare collecting. But then again, I'm not British and cannot say for sure.
- Uhhrrr 9y ago
  >There are solicitors, who provide legal advice from their offices, and there are barristers, who argue in court. Barristers get the majority of their business via solicitors, and clerks act as the crucial middlemen between the tribes—they work for and sell the services of their barristers, steering inquiring solicitors to the right man or woman. >Clerks are by their own cheerful admission “wheeler-dealers,” what Americans might call hustlers. They take a certain pride in managing the careers of their bosses, the barristers—a breed that often combines academic brilliance with emotional fragility. Many barristers regard clerks as their pimps. Managing relationships between lawyers? I think it seems a bit more tricky than playing Go.
  - madaxe_again 9y ago
    Also, most of this relationship management happens in pubs (really), so until we have a robot that can drink and smoke and stagger, this one stays with the humans. They're a very close-knit and rambunctiously boozy clique.
  - arethuza 9y ago
    "managing the careers of their bosses" In Scotland the grouping of advocates with a clerk are known as "stables" which perhaps describes the relationship more clearly!
- paulcole 9y ago
  I was thinking this would be a great application for Blockchain technology.
- kazinator 9y ago
  Good heavens, my good man! Perish the thought.
- orf 9y ago
  It's going to take a hell of a lot of work to automate an Essex-born wheeler dealer, trust me.
  - cm2187 9y ago
    Including training the algorithm to crack football jokes over a beer at the pub!
- tacostakohashi 9y ago
  Just like real estate sales and bond trading?
thriftwy 9y ago
For what it is worth I fail to see English commercial law cases' results as anything other than PRNG with weighted mean. A very, very expensive PRNG which allegedly requires "combining academic brilliance with emotional fragility". (I kinda understand that it's not a topic for me-the-peon to grasp)
- mirimir 9y ago
  How would you characterize US commercial law?
  - schn 9y ago
    Paid Random Number Generator
    - bitexploder 9y ago
      Good, but the more dollars you pump into it the better the odds get for you. I would say (and at a large dollar scale, hundreds of thousands or millions) the RNG state is slowly leaked. If the other side puts in as much money as you, they see the same state ;)
- eyeJam 9y ago
  Most large commercial lawsuits settle before they ever go to court. From my anecdotal experience, maybe only 10% go to court. Litigation is a very long and expensive process. Some files last decades before they resolve. When litigation is ongoing, both sides are engaging in legal wrestling to try and get the most favorable position. Once one side has gained a clear advantage, they will start pressuring the other side to settle. Its very expensive to go all the way to court and then lose, so most corporations will concede and settle once they lose the upper-hand. Therefore if a case does finally make it to court, its because (1) both sides have a decent chance of winning, or (2) one side - or both - hate each other so much that they refuse to settle. The first option, (1), is the most common: the case is so close that its essentially a coin flip. Remember, you only hear about the cases that go to court, and most settlements are confidential and never hit the news. So the public's perception of commercial law doesn't include the full picture. I'm almost positive that litigation will never be fully automated. Some aspects of it already have (such as document review and discovery). But the majority of the work (negotiating with the other side, questioning witnesses, arguing pre-trial motions in court, researching legal questions, writing memos and briefs, advising clients on strategy) is far too reliant on humans to ever be replaced.
beefman 9y ago
As office boy I made such a mark That they gave me the post of a junior clerk I served the writs with a smile so bland And I copied all the letters in a big round hand I copied all the letters in a hand so free That now I am the Ruler of the Queen's Navy In serving writs I made such a name That an articled clerk I soon became I wore clean collars and a brand-new suit For the Pass Examination at the Institute And that Pass Examination did so well for me That now I am the Ruler of the Queen's Navy
Bobbleoxs 9y ago
The point is the 'perceived' dignity by barristers not touching money but only dealing with their clients on the cases. There is indeed a point that barristers are often 'academically brilliant and emotionally fragile' and incredibly eloquent I should add. It is not an optimisation issue or machine learning issue. It is almost the core of humanity - emotions that we will and do not want AI to replace. Well, at least for my part.
janfoeh 9y ago
One anecdote from around the same time, possibly apocryphal, is widely shared. At a chambers that had expanded and was bringing in more money, three silks decided their chief clerk’s compensation, at 10 percent, had gotten out of hand. They summoned him for a meeting and told him so. In a tactical response that highlights all the class baggage of the clerk-barrister relationship, as well as the acute British phobia of discussing money, the clerk surprised the barristers by agreeing with them. “I’m not going to take a penny more from you,” he concluded. The barristers, gobsmacked and paralyzed by manners, never raised the pay issue again, and the clerk remained on at 10 percent until retirement. My command of the English language fails me here. Could somebody explain his response to me?
- Ntrails 9y ago
  "I’m not going to take a penny more from you" A penny being the smallest unit of currency. So he's simply stating that he'll not take any more money in recognition of the fact that he was very well compensated. This implicitly discounts the possibility to reduce the amount of money he'd take - and so if that's something the barristers wanted to do they'd have to explicitly bring it up. Which, I think we can all agree, would be simply too awful to contemplate.
- s0l1dsnak3123 9y ago
  I saw this as a veiled threat from the Clerk that they'd drop the barristers as clients - in other words the clerk wouldn't ask for a penny more compensation because he wouldn't be passing the barristers any more work.
  - zhte415 9y ago
    Indeed. And in this veiled threat contained a promise that as long as the fee [10%] was paid, the Clerk would continue to work without problem or hassle. In making so, the cost/risk of the Clerk was minimised compared, in modern language, to changing vendor. There were no more hidden costs. No idea why you were downvoted.
  - janfoeh 9y ago

121 points by ductionist 9y ago

bowmessage 9y ago

Seems like a business ready for some automation.

Nav_Panel 9y ago
My first thought was how plausible it'd be to write an algorithm to do the client-barrister matching for you, but I get the vibe from this article that the relationship between barristers and clerks is more about some sort of unique social tradition than it is about the actual work of client matching and fare collecting. But then again, I'm not British and cannot say for sure.
Uhhrrr 9y ago
>There are solicitors, who provide legal advice from their offices, and there are barristers, who argue in court. Barristers get the majority of their business via solicitors, and clerks act as the crucial middlemen between the tribes—they work for and sell the services of their barristers, steering inquiring solicitors to the right man or woman. >Clerks are by their own cheerful admission “wheeler-dealers,” what Americans might call hustlers. They take a certain pride in managing the careers of their bosses, the barristers—a breed that often combines academic brilliance with emotional fragility. Many barristers regard clerks as their pimps. Managing relationships between lawyers? I think it seems a bit more tricky than playing Go.
- madaxe_again 9y ago
  Also, most of this relationship management happens in pubs (really), so until we have a robot that can drink and smoke and stagger, this one stays with the humans. They're a very close-knit and rambunctiously boozy clique.
- arethuza 9y ago
  "managing the careers of their bosses" In Scotland the grouping of advocates with a clerk are known as "stables" which perhaps describes the relationship more clearly!
paulcole 9y ago
I was thinking this would be a great application for Blockchain technology.
kazinator 9y ago
Good heavens, my good man! Perish the thought.
orf 9y ago
It's going to take a hell of a lot of work to automate an Essex-born wheeler dealer, trust me.
- cm2187 9y ago
  Including training the algorithm to crack football jokes over a beer at the pub!
tacostakohashi 9y ago
Just like real estate sales and bond trading?

thriftwy 9y ago

For what it is worth I fail to see English commercial law cases' results as anything other than PRNG with weighted mean. A very, very expensive PRNG which allegedly requires "combining academic brilliance with emotional fragility". (I kinda understand that it's not a topic for me-the-peon to grasp)

mirimir 9y ago
How would you characterize US commercial law?
- schn 9y ago
  Paid Random Number Generator
  - bitexploder 9y ago
    Good, but the more dollars you pump into it the better the odds get for you. I would say (and at a large dollar scale, hundreds of thousands or millions) the RNG state is slowly leaked. If the other side puts in as much money as you, they see the same state ;)
eyeJam 9y ago
Most large commercial lawsuits settle before they ever go to court. From my anecdotal experience, maybe only 10% go to court. Litigation is a very long and expensive process. Some files last decades before they resolve. When litigation is ongoing, both sides are engaging in legal wrestling to try and get the most favorable position. Once one side has gained a clear advantage, they will start pressuring the other side to settle. Its very expensive to go all the way to court and then lose, so most corporations will concede and settle once they lose the upper-hand. Therefore if a case does finally make it to court, its because (1) both sides have a decent chance of winning, or (2) one side - or both - hate each other so much that they refuse to settle. The first option, (1), is the most common: the case is so close that its essentially a coin flip. Remember, you only hear about the cases that go to court, and most settlements are confidential and never hit the news. So the public's perception of commercial law doesn't include the full picture. I'm almost positive that litigation will never be fully automated. Some aspects of it already have (such as document review and discovery). But the majority of the work (negotiating with the other side, questioning witnesses, arguing pre-trial motions in court, researching legal questions, writing memos and briefs, advising clients on strategy) is far too reliant on humans to ever be replaced.

beefman 9y ago

As office boy I made such a mark That they gave me the post of a junior clerk I served the writs with a smile so bland And I copied all the letters in a big round hand I copied all the letters in a hand so free That now I am the Ruler of the Queen's Navy In serving writs I made such a name That an articled clerk I soon became I wore clean collars and a brand-new suit For the Pass Examination at the Institute And that Pass Examination did so well for me That now I am the Ruler of the Queen's Navy

Bobbleoxs 9y ago

The point is the 'perceived' dignity by barristers not touching money but only dealing with their clients on the cases. There is indeed a point that barristers are often 'academically brilliant and emotionally fragile' and incredibly eloquent I should add. It is not an optimisation issue or machine learning issue. It is almost the core of humanity - emotions that we will and do not want AI to replace. Well, at least for my part.

janfoeh 9y ago

One anecdote from around the same time, possibly apocryphal, is widely shared. At a chambers that had expanded and was bringing in more money, three silks decided their chief clerk’s compensation, at 10 percent, had gotten out of hand. They summoned him for a meeting and told him so. In a tactical response that highlights all the class baggage of the clerk-barrister relationship, as well as the acute British phobia of discussing money, the clerk surprised the barristers by agreeing with them. “I’m not going to take a penny more from you,” he concluded. The barristers, gobsmacked and paralyzed by manners, never raised the pay issue again, and the clerk remained on at 10 percent until retirement. My command of the English language fails me here. Could somebody explain his response to me?

Ntrails 9y ago
"I’m not going to take a penny more from you" A penny being the smallest unit of currency. So he's simply stating that he'll not take any more money in recognition of the fact that he was very well compensated. This implicitly discounts the possibility to reduce the amount of money he'd take - and so if that's something the barristers wanted to do they'd have to explicitly bring it up. Which, I think we can all agree, would be simply too awful to contemplate.
s0l1dsnak3123 9y ago
I saw this as a veiled threat from the Clerk that they'd drop the barristers as clients - in other words the clerk wouldn't ask for a penny more compensation because he wouldn't be passing the barristers any more work.
- zhte415 9y ago
  Indeed. And in this veiled threat contained a promise that as long as the fee [10%] was paid, the Clerk would continue to work without problem or hassle. In making so, the cost/risk of the Clerk was minimised compared, in modern language, to changing vendor. There were no more hidden costs. No idea why you were downvoted.
- janfoeh 9y ago