9 ms·

Video Analysis of Erdogan's security detail brawl in Washington

373 points by Preemo 9y ago

CamperBob2 9y ago
Not sure what it's doing on HN, but this is a really nice piece of journalism, well worth checking out even if you're not interested in the subject matter.
- codezero 9y ago
  HN is for anything that might interest its audience, you seem interested, and I am too, so it checks the boxes :)
- Preemo 9y ago
  I figured because it was a fairly in-depth analysis of the footage, it was worth posting to the HN community. I'm glad you found it interesting.
  - jedmeyers 9y ago
    I found the reading and especially watching experience to be sub par on the iphone. No way to pause/rewind the clips, no complete videos to review, just carefully prepared "analysis" for digestion in a certain way.
    - abeyer 9y ago
      I can't speak to its behavior on iDevices, but regarding the complete video: As far as I can tell all the clips analyzed were from the video footage in the original NYT report[1] of the incident, which is linked in the very first paragraph of this article. Personally, I think this is a rather good example of reporting on something that perhaps entailed a bit of a judgement, but providing ample and well-documented evidence of how they reached that conclusion. If you disagree, you're more that welcome to go to the source material and come to a different conclusion. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/17/us/turkish-embassy-protest-dc.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/17/us/turkish-embassy-protes...
    - joezydeco 9y ago
      I can't even read the thing. The scroll keeps snapping back to the top. (iOS 10, iPhone 5S)
    - mschuster91 9y ago
      > I found the reading and especially watching experience to be sub par on the iphone. Don't complain to the NYT, go complain at Apple. It's Apple's fault that in mid-2017, there is STILL no way for inline videos in ordinary HTML5 web sites. But, I admit, there's one single huge advantage: iOS devices are not hit with sometimes dozens of megabytes of traffic due to news sites auto-loading/playing videos, or worse, ad videos...
  - scrollaway 9y ago
    Thanks for posting it! Very cool article and in-depth piece.
codezero 9y ago
This is a pretty amazing compilation, is there any recourse for this? Are these security guards protected by diplomatic immunity? Is that a stupid question?
- jedmeyers 9y ago
  Not stupid, and they most likely have immunity, if they are officially a part of the delegation.
  - wpietri 9y ago
    That's my understanding too. Although I believe that the US could ban those individuals from having immunity in the future and eject them from the country, which is certainly what I'd advocate for here.
    - joshuamorton 9y ago
      There's a wiki article somewhere that was brought up when this discussion happened on reddit that states that members of security details aren't usually granted immunity, only consular officials are. EDIT: I found it [0] [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_immunity#Diplomatic_immunity_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_immunity#Diplomatic...
- kevindqc 9y ago
  Technically Turkey could wave the diplomatic immunity, but considering who ordered the attacks.. though luck
  - abeyer 9y ago
    Or my understanding is that the US can revoke their diplomatic credentials and expel them at any time, and that tends to be a more common response to a serious crime than actual waiver of immunity and prosecution.
- skyrw 9y ago
Zaheer 9y ago
The footage is really well edited to highlight what's going on. I wonder if it's actually multiple footage augmented together or just single footage. At least it feels as so.
- jxramos 9y ago
  I'm totally impressed. The folks who generated this content should very much be given more assignments of the like. It's very much going to set a gold standard with future video highlights, especially in this age of video camera ubiquity with cell phones, surveillance, badge cams, dash cams, etc.
anigbrowl 9y ago
Top-notch editing work and presentation, really impressive. Don't want to get diverted into politics but I was appalled by not only the incident itself but the fact that Turkey then summoned the US ambassador in Ankara to complain about DC police trying to break up the fight. This is not a healthy sign for the future.
- pjc50 9y ago
  It appears to be part of Turkey's new nationalist media strategy. See a similar incident in the Netherlands with some crazy details: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Dutch%E2%80%93Turkish_diplomatic_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Dutch%E2%80%93Turkish_dip... > About twenty police officers, forming a special forces unit, the Dienst Speciale Interventies, masked and equipped with body armour and automatic weapons, arrested ten members of Kaya's bodyguard, on suspicion of illegally carrying firearms > A stand-off ensued for several hours in which the Turkish minister refused to leave the car.[7] Just after midnight, a special heavy tow truck, a lift flatbed, was driven into the yard and prepared to vertically hoist the 3.5 tonne car on the flatbed, with the minister still in it, to transport her back to Germany. (Turkey is probably long past its last free election and we're going to have to work out how to deal with one of the largest European NATO members being an Islamist dictatorship)
- Kenji 9y ago
  >Don't want to get diverted into politics I don't think this has much to do with politics. If you're right, left or center, libertarian or authoritarian, doesn't matter, it's basic morality that this unwarranted aggression is wrong and must have consequences. If I was the president under which such a thing happened, I would make sure the consequences are severe enough that it would never happen again under my term.
  - krapp 9y ago
    > If I was the president under which such a thing happened, I would make sure the consequences are severe enough that it would never happen again under my term. This particular president offered to pay the bail for anyone who "kicked the crap" out of protesters at one of his campaign rallies... I doubt he even sees it as a problem.
Keyframe 9y ago
Great analysis, but I must ask the obvious question. US citizens attacked by foreign entities on US soil. What gives?
- mschuster91 9y ago
  Well, that happens when a dictator visits a wannabe dictator. Erdogan and his goons obviously thought they'd be let off without any consequences for this - and indeed they were right. And I'm sure there won't be any consequences in the future - it's not a Trump thing to anger like-minded friends.
  - workerIbe 9y ago
    Turkey's strategic importance is nothing new, it's just where it is on the board.
    - mschuster91 9y ago
      "strategic importance" is not an excuse for letting such things (or the massive violation of human rights happening in Turkey right now) happen without consequence.
      - workerIbe 9y ago
        If only things were that simple.
- spodek 9y ago
  We can't change the past, but as an American, my question is what will my government do to protect its citizens and how will it obtain justice for them. Will it even try? Let's hope the fourth estate holds the first three accountable.
  - draw_down 9y ago
    I'm guessing nothing will happen. I have no idea if diplomatic immunity applies, but also the president and Erdogan are friendly. And, we have a lot of contempt for protestors in our country.
werewolf359 9y ago
In this video of the attack: https://twitter.com/MahirZeynalov/status/865301089867923456 https://twitter.com/MahirZeynalov/status/865301089867923456 a bodyguard is seen talking to someone in the back of a car. That bodyguard nods to another bodyguard, who then walks towards the protest. The attack begins the second he arrives at the line. Later, the person in the back of the car gets out. It's Erdogan. This video didn't get as much press as it should have, I suppose since you can't say it's "proof" he ordered the attack. But come on.
- dmix 9y ago
  Would Ergodan's goons (all 10 of them) go into this confrontation without his (or his lead security guards) consent? I know from various stories/documentaries that US Secret Service presidential protection details are extremely tightly controlled. There would never be spontaneous involvement in the protest unless they were immediately threatened. Which they clearly aren't in this video.
- ehsankia 9y ago
  I was honestly surprised that NYT did such a beautiful in depth analysis of videos and didn't have this video in there. How can you do an in depth research on that incident and not have this vital video? I wonder if with modern machine learning backed algorithms, we can do a semi-decent job at reading some of the lips in that video.
  - JBReefer 9y ago
    Or you know, just find a deaf Turk...
  - mozumder 9y ago
    ? That video is in the article, specifically talking about the possibility of Erdogan ordering the attack.
  - nkurz 9y ago
    I agree, the analysis is great, but linking to an unedited source video would help remove doubt that things might be shown out of context. If you haven't found one yet, here's one: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/recep-tayyip-erdogan-bodyguard-video-beat-up-kurdish-protesters-donald-trump-washington-dc-a7740846.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/recep-ta... If the perpetrators of the violence shown in the video are not charged with criminal acts, I think this means we are no longer operating under rule of law.
omginternets 9y ago
I guess it's no longer viable to go to protests unarmed. Good to know.
- JBReefer 9y ago
  It is very difficult to carry any firearms in DC, NYC, or any of the other major protest spots.
  - 1_2__3 9y ago
    Of course you can. It just isn't legal for most people.
- exabrial 9y ago
  A good thought, and in most states, it would be your Constitutional right to do so. However, carrying a weapon is likely to attract additional attention and there's a good chance you'd wind up dead. You're going against a foreign military trained force, and they're probably not used to seeing a normal citizen exercise their civil liberties in such a way. I think peaceful assembly is probably the best approach, and leaving immediately if anyone (protestor or police) incites violence.
  - tehlike 9y ago
    I am Turkish by origin, but have been living in USA for 7 years. I could vouch for the fact that it would make them feel threatened. They are definitely not aware of civil liberties and constitutional rights. Heck, they don't even know or understand what freedom of speech is.
    - exabrial 9y ago
      Welcome :) we're glad you're here
    - omginternets 9y ago
      >I could vouch for the fact that it would make them feel threatened. They are definitely not aware of civil liberties and constitutional rights Yes, and that's very much the point.
exabrial 9y ago
Why no charges? (Diplomatic immunity?) Also, law abiding US citizens can barely get the government's permission to exercise their 2nd amendment rights in Washington, how do foreign body guards manage that?
santaclaus 9y ago
> He repeatedly kicked Ms. Usoyan, 34, as she lay on the ground. According to New Jersey records, Mr. Yildirim is 50 and manages three companies in that state. Mr. Yildrim does not appear to have diplomatic immunity, so why aren't assault and battery charges being levied against him?
- defterGoose 9y ago
  Get this man to the top ^^^
- lifeformed 9y ago
  I don't think diplomatic immunity protects the rest of them either. It's not a free license to commit any crimes they want.
  - logicallee 9y ago
    >It's not a free license to commit any crimes they want. That's exactly what it is. The hosting country can ONLY just tell them they are "persona non grata". (Expel them.) Of course, they may face charges in their home country or be extradited. Their home country can waive their diplomatic immunity - and do so for their diplomats acting criminally in other countries. But 100% of all of these actions are on the home country. The host country can do absolutely nothing besides expel them or complain to their home country. Let me know if you see anything to the contrary here or anywhere else online: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_immunity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_immunity
    - gech 9y ago
      Wars were started over less. Maybe a little more patriotism is called for nowadays
      - krapp 9y ago
        >Wars were started over less. We're still dealing with the consequences of a war we started for apparently no reason other than than wanting to do it. Maybe we should raise the bar for going to war, and not keep lowering it.
sjg007 9y ago
Regardless of the state department, the protestors should sue and the US can freeze assets here.
- jessaustin 9y ago
  Even if suing the Turkish government is found impractical, they should definitely sue the thugs who have business interests in USA.
all_usernames 9y ago
America is in a sad, sad state when there is no recourse for something like this. What are we, afraid of diplomatically insulting an Islamist dictatorship?
- mattalbie 9y ago
  It's more of a practical concern. Our diplomats and their details operate in places like Turkey every day and we want those governments to grant us lots of leeway when dealing with the local population. That being said, this is a spectacular display of diplomatic idiocy.
  - contingencies 9y ago
    This comment is pretty fascist. The notion that it's OK to run around assaulting peaceful protesters because that gives you the scope to similarly ignore human rights elsewhere, and the phrasing "deal with" ... really don't sit well with me. A lot of what is wrong with the world rests on this kind of thinking.
    - mattalbie 9y ago
      I never said it was ok to treat people like that, or that I agree with that line of thinking at all. Describing something fascist doesn't make me fascist. Just that I suspect that is the calculation that goes on when a person decides to overlook this kind thing (which would normally be dealt with as a criminal action). Also tried to point out that there are countless stories of American diplomats and security teams behaving badly.
- averagewall 9y ago
  Turkey is a democracy. Most people there want Erdogan's government and they voted for it. Diplomatic immunity is part of international law and exists for good reasons. See the Vienna Convention: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Convention_on_Diplomatic_Relations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Convention_on_Diplomati... If you think that concept is wrong, why not address that or argue for the US to be exempt from the Vienna Convention?
cmurf 9y ago
This same scenario happened last year outside the Brookings Institution. I suspect the reason why there's such good video coverage of this year's attack, is they were ready for it, based on what happened last year. In the short term, I agree with John McCain, the Turkish ambassador to the U.S. should be expelled over this event. What precedes all of this is the U.S. supports the YPG, which Erdogan considers a terrorist organization. Pretty much any Kurdish organization is probably considered a terrorist organization to the Turkish government, however. The U.S. supports the YPG, makes Erdogan look weak in that he doesn't have enough sway to get one of their worst domestic political and ethnic enemies disenfranchised by the U.S. so Erdogan retaliates with thugs right in the U.S. capitol to embarrass the Trump (and last year the Obama) adminstration. It's tit for tat. Long term, is whether a Turkish autocracy, which is what it is now, a viable member in NATO? I think the U.S. looks the other way as long as Turkey helps fight Daesh. But Turkey is now a stain on NATO's democratic origin and purpose.
- ajmurmann 9y ago
  Even their commitment to fighting Daesh is highly questionable.
- IIAOPSW 9y ago
  >Long term, is whether a Turkish autocracy, which is what it is now, a viable member in NATO? I think the U.S. looks the other way as long as Turkey helps fight Daesh. But Turkey is now a stain on NATO's democratic origin and purpose. Unless Turkey loses control of the Bosphorous straits or Russia stops being what it is, Turkey will always be welcome at the table. Help with Daesh and/or pushing democratic ideas is neither the purpose of NATO, nor the origin of NATO, nor the future of NATO.
  - cmurf 9y ago
    "NATO promotes democratic values" http://www.nato.int/nato-welcome/index.html http://www.nato.int/nato-welcome/index.html And Erdogan, right now, is doing the opposite of that. It is completely valid to question Turkey's role in NATO, but the current U.S. president doesn't care about or even understand what democracy is, because he's an ignoramous about pretty much everything. All he cares about is "winning" and that's why he praises autocrats like Erdogan, Duerte, Salman, Kim Jong Un, and el-Sisi, while criticizing American allies. I think he's kinda jealous of autocrats who get things done and doesn't have to deal with silly legislatures and courts. So I have no doubt that this administration will be fine with Turkey staying in NATO for the foreseeable future despite the incongruity on democratic values.
ajmurmann 9y ago
I hate to be that guy, but what's going on with that website? On my iPhone It scroll beyond the title. It keeps jumping back to the top immediately.
- gefh 9y ago
  Same on mobile chrome, in mobile or desktop mode. Very frustrating.
muse900 9y ago
I found this video a few days ago on reddit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWxm-bxgP9g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWxm-bxgP9g One thing that I found intriguing as an engineer is that Ertogan's bodyguards etc are trying to shout louder than the protesters. At first I thought ok thats natural, 2 parties have a disagreement and then each tries to be louder. The sound from Ertogan's trained personnel thought isn't exactly an argument. You'll hear through the whole video the sound : 'EEEEEEEEEE' coming up from his bodyguards which is definitely not argument, just a way to mask protesters voice. So to conclude my point, is that Ertogan has trained soldiers trying to shout louder than the protesters so he won't hear anything bad about him. Pretty much the same he is doing to his country by blocking wikipedia etc. I can only think of one other person that would do such a thing, Kim.
- bigdubs 9y ago
  DJT is not far off.
- gech 9y ago
  Trump
wavefunction 9y ago
I'm waiting for Mr. Erdogan's next visit to the United States. I plan to travel to D.C. then and stand in solidarity with anyone who wants to express their freedom of speech within the borders of the US. Mr. Erdogan and his thuggish retinue insulted the very nature of his hosts, who have been far too gracious to some very undeserving guests.
arca_vorago 9y ago
I immediately called for two things. The NRA to organize an armed protest, and to persona-non-grata all attackers not American citizens, and to arrest those that are and don't have DI (diplomatic immunity). What happened is the Turks are thugs, and when they heard/saw pro PKK "protestors" they consider "terrorists" they wanted to make an example of them. I'm guessing it was also a distraction technique for Erdogan to proceed to wherever he was headed. What is most shameful to me, is the response from the DC police. If armed foreign thugs are attacking americans, It's time to escalate force. They were straight up sucker-kicking/punching women and old men already on the ground... shots that could have killed or could cause concussion or brain damage. What no one is talking about is how deeply Turkey has infiltrated the US intel community (lookup Sibel Edmonds for more info), or the fact they we let Turkey get away with this stuff because of geostrategic realpolitik. Turkey is also funding and arming ISIS against the Kurds because to them the Kurds are a greater threat.
- elihu 9y ago
  There's not much the police could have done. Erdogan's bodyguards had guns and there were more of them -- possibly soldiers in the embassy with rifles, as well. There would have been a shootout, and most likely all of the police and perhaps some/all of the protesters as well would have been dead. I think we should be treating this as an attack by the government of Turkey against United States civilians. They are no longer an ally. I suspect that we unfortunately have more to lose than Turkey by ending our friendly relationship, but so be it. Staying in a dysfunctional relationship isn't good for either country. I would like to see the bodyguards prosecuted, but at the same time I expect they are operating under some kind of threat worse than what the United States legal system could potentially do to them. Maybe their wives and daughters will be arrested if they don't attack certain protesters? They may be in a no-win situation. The best thing may be to just get them to leave and not return, even if that offends our sense of justice.
  - zo1 9y ago
    You know, as a libertarian, I constantly get told about the virtues of government and how we need it to protect us (you know, from wandering War Lords or some such). The police being an extension of that protection. And look what happened here. Helpless citizens, being beaten and attacked in plain site, in front of police, and even recorded doing it. And not a damn thing is done. Screw geo-politics, the police should by all means have escalated immediately, called for backup and arrested/shot the assailants. That is their job, we are told. You need only hypothesize what would have happened if this was a gathering of some sort of gang, and it was assaulting individuals the same way. This is a "war lord" from another land, attacking your citizens in front of you. The blatant double-standard should be enough to throw up red-flags for every single citizen seeing it.

373 points by Preemo 9y ago

Not sure what it's doing on HN, but this is a really nice piece of journalism, well worth checking out even if you're not interested in the subject matter.

codezero 9y ago
HN is for anything that might interest its audience, you seem interested, and I am too, so it checks the boxes :)
Preemo 9y ago
I figured because it was a fairly in-depth analysis of the footage, it was worth posting to the HN community. I'm glad you found it interesting.
- jedmeyers 9y ago
  I found the reading and especially watching experience to be sub par on the iphone. No way to pause/rewind the clips, no complete videos to review, just carefully prepared "analysis" for digestion in a certain way.
  - abeyer 9y ago
    I can't speak to its behavior on iDevices, but regarding the complete video: As far as I can tell all the clips analyzed were from the video footage in the original NYT report[1] of the incident, which is linked in the very first paragraph of this article. Personally, I think this is a rather good example of reporting on something that perhaps entailed a bit of a judgement, but providing ample and well-documented evidence of how they reached that conclusion. If you disagree, you're more that welcome to go to the source material and come to a different conclusion. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/17/us/turkish-embassy-protest-dc.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/17/us/turkish-embassy-protes...
  - joezydeco 9y ago
    I can't even read the thing. The scroll keeps snapping back to the top. (iOS 10, iPhone 5S)
  - mschuster91 9y ago
    > I found the reading and especially watching experience to be sub par on the iphone. Don't complain to the NYT, go complain at Apple. It's Apple's fault that in mid-2017, there is STILL no way for inline videos in ordinary HTML5 web sites. But, I admit, there's one single huge advantage: iOS devices are not hit with sometimes dozens of megabytes of traffic due to news sites auto-loading/playing videos, or worse, ad videos...
- scrollaway 9y ago
  Thanks for posting it! Very cool article and in-depth piece.

codezero 9y ago

This is a pretty amazing compilation, is there any recourse for this? Are these security guards protected by diplomatic immunity? Is that a stupid question?

jedmeyers 9y ago
Not stupid, and they most likely have immunity, if they are officially a part of the delegation.
- wpietri 9y ago
  That's my understanding too. Although I believe that the US could ban those individuals from having immunity in the future and eject them from the country, which is certainly what I'd advocate for here.
  - joshuamorton 9y ago
    There's a wiki article somewhere that was brought up when this discussion happened on reddit that states that members of security details aren't usually granted immunity, only consular officials are. EDIT: I found it [0] [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_immunity#Diplomatic_immunity_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_immunity#Diplomatic...
kevindqc 9y ago
Technically Turkey could wave the diplomatic immunity, but considering who ordered the attacks.. though luck
- abeyer 9y ago
  Or my understanding is that the US can revoke their diplomatic credentials and expel them at any time, and that tends to be a more common response to a serious crime than actual waiver of immunity and prosecution.
skyrw 9y ago

Zaheer 9y ago

The footage is really well edited to highlight what's going on. I wonder if it's actually multiple footage augmented together or just single footage. At least it feels as so.

jxramos 9y ago
I'm totally impressed. The folks who generated this content should very much be given more assignments of the like. It's very much going to set a gold standard with future video highlights, especially in this age of video camera ubiquity with cell phones, surveillance, badge cams, dash cams, etc.

anigbrowl 9y ago

Top-notch editing work and presentation, really impressive. Don't want to get diverted into politics but I was appalled by not only the incident itself but the fact that Turkey then summoned the US ambassador in Ankara to complain about DC police trying to break up the fight. This is not a healthy sign for the future.

pjc50 9y ago
It appears to be part of Turkey's new nationalist media strategy. See a similar incident in the Netherlands with some crazy details: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Dutch%E2%80%93Turkish_diplomatic_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Dutch%E2%80%93Turkish_dip... > About twenty police officers, forming a special forces unit, the Dienst Speciale Interventies, masked and equipped with body armour and automatic weapons, arrested ten members of Kaya's bodyguard, on suspicion of illegally carrying firearms > A stand-off ensued for several hours in which the Turkish minister refused to leave the car.[7] Just after midnight, a special heavy tow truck, a lift flatbed, was driven into the yard and prepared to vertically hoist the 3.5 tonne car on the flatbed, with the minister still in it, to transport her back to Germany. (Turkey is probably long past its last free election and we're going to have to work out how to deal with one of the largest European NATO members being an Islamist dictatorship)
Kenji 9y ago
>Don't want to get diverted into politics I don't think this has much to do with politics. If you're right, left or center, libertarian or authoritarian, doesn't matter, it's basic morality that this unwarranted aggression is wrong and must have consequences. If I was the president under which such a thing happened, I would make sure the consequences are severe enough that it would never happen again under my term.
- krapp 9y ago
  > If I was the president under which such a thing happened, I would make sure the consequences are severe enough that it would never happen again under my term. This particular president offered to pay the bail for anyone who "kicked the crap" out of protesters at one of his campaign rallies... I doubt he even sees it as a problem.

Keyframe 9y ago

Great analysis, but I must ask the obvious question. US citizens attacked by foreign entities on US soil. What gives?

mschuster91 9y ago
Well, that happens when a dictator visits a wannabe dictator. Erdogan and his goons obviously thought they'd be let off without any consequences for this - and indeed they were right. And I'm sure there won't be any consequences in the future - it's not a Trump thing to anger like-minded friends.
- workerIbe 9y ago
  Turkey's strategic importance is nothing new, it's just where it is on the board.
  - mschuster91 9y ago
    "strategic importance" is not an excuse for letting such things (or the massive violation of human rights happening in Turkey right now) happen without consequence.
    - workerIbe 9y ago
      If only things were that simple.
spodek 9y ago
We can't change the past, but as an American, my question is what will my government do to protect its citizens and how will it obtain justice for them. Will it even try? Let's hope the fourth estate holds the first three accountable.
- draw_down 9y ago
  I'm guessing nothing will happen. I have no idea if diplomatic immunity applies, but also the president and Erdogan are friendly. And, we have a lot of contempt for protestors in our country.

werewolf359 9y ago

In this video of the attack: https://twitter.com/MahirZeynalov/status/865301089867923456 https://twitter.com/MahirZeynalov/status/865301089867923456 a bodyguard is seen talking to someone in the back of a car. That bodyguard nods to another bodyguard, who then walks towards the protest. The attack begins the second he arrives at the line. Later, the person in the back of the car gets out. It's Erdogan. This video didn't get as much press as it should have, I suppose since you can't say it's "proof" he ordered the attack. But come on.

dmix 9y ago
Would Ergodan's goons (all 10 of them) go into this confrontation without his (or his lead security guards) consent? I know from various stories/documentaries that US Secret Service presidential protection details are extremely tightly controlled. There would never be spontaneous involvement in the protest unless they were immediately threatened. Which they clearly aren't in this video.
ehsankia 9y ago
I was honestly surprised that NYT did such a beautiful in depth analysis of videos and didn't have this video in there. How can you do an in depth research on that incident and not have this vital video? I wonder if with modern machine learning backed algorithms, we can do a semi-decent job at reading some of the lips in that video.
- JBReefer 9y ago
  Or you know, just find a deaf Turk...
- mozumder 9y ago
  ? That video is in the article, specifically talking about the possibility of Erdogan ordering the attack.
- nkurz 9y ago
  I agree, the analysis is great, but linking to an unedited source video would help remove doubt that things might be shown out of context. If you haven't found one yet, here's one: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/recep-tayyip-erdogan-bodyguard-video-beat-up-kurdish-protesters-donald-trump-washington-dc-a7740846.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/recep-ta... If the perpetrators of the violence shown in the video are not charged with criminal acts, I think this means we are no longer operating under rule of law.

omginternets 9y ago

I guess it's no longer viable to go to protests unarmed. Good to know.

JBReefer 9y ago
It is very difficult to carry any firearms in DC, NYC, or any of the other major protest spots.
- 1_2__3 9y ago
  Of course you can. It just isn't legal for most people.
exabrial 9y ago
A good thought, and in most states, it would be your Constitutional right to do so. However, carrying a weapon is likely to attract additional attention and there's a good chance you'd wind up dead. You're going against a foreign military trained force, and they're probably not used to seeing a normal citizen exercise their civil liberties in such a way. I think peaceful assembly is probably the best approach, and leaving immediately if anyone (protestor or police) incites violence.
- tehlike 9y ago
  I am Turkish by origin, but have been living in USA for 7 years. I could vouch for the fact that it would make them feel threatened. They are definitely not aware of civil liberties and constitutional rights. Heck, they don't even know or understand what freedom of speech is.
  - exabrial 9y ago
    Welcome :) we're glad you're here
  - omginternets 9y ago
    >I could vouch for the fact that it would make them feel threatened. They are definitely not aware of civil liberties and constitutional rights Yes, and that's very much the point.

exabrial 9y ago

Why no charges? (Diplomatic immunity?) Also, law abiding US citizens can barely get the government's permission to exercise their 2nd amendment rights in Washington, how do foreign body guards manage that?

santaclaus 9y ago

> He repeatedly kicked Ms. Usoyan, 34, as she lay on the ground. According to New Jersey records, Mr. Yildirim is 50 and manages three companies in that state. Mr. Yildrim does not appear to have diplomatic immunity, so why aren't assault and battery charges being levied against him?

defterGoose 9y ago
Get this man to the top ^^^
lifeformed 9y ago
I don't think diplomatic immunity protects the rest of them either. It's not a free license to commit any crimes they want.
- logicallee 9y ago
  >It's not a free license to commit any crimes they want. That's exactly what it is. The hosting country can ONLY just tell them they are "persona non grata". (Expel them.) Of course, they may face charges in their home country or be extradited. Their home country can waive their diplomatic immunity - and do so for their diplomats acting criminally in other countries. But 100% of all of these actions are on the home country. The host country can do absolutely nothing besides expel them or complain to their home country. Let me know if you see anything to the contrary here or anywhere else online: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_immunity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_immunity
  - gech 9y ago
    Wars were started over less. Maybe a little more patriotism is called for nowadays
    - krapp 9y ago
      >Wars were started over less. We're still dealing with the consequences of a war we started for apparently no reason other than than wanting to do it. Maybe we should raise the bar for going to war, and not keep lowering it.

sjg007 9y ago

Regardless of the state department, the protestors should sue and the US can freeze assets here.

jessaustin 9y ago
Even if suing the Turkish government is found impractical, they should definitely sue the thugs who have business interests in USA.

all_usernames 9y ago

America is in a sad, sad state when there is no recourse for something like this. What are we, afraid of diplomatically insulting an Islamist dictatorship?

mattalbie 9y ago
It's more of a practical concern. Our diplomats and their details operate in places like Turkey every day and we want those governments to grant us lots of leeway when dealing with the local population. That being said, this is a spectacular display of diplomatic idiocy.
- contingencies 9y ago
  This comment is pretty fascist. The notion that it's OK to run around assaulting peaceful protesters because that gives you the scope to similarly ignore human rights elsewhere, and the phrasing "deal with" ... really don't sit well with me. A lot of what is wrong with the world rests on this kind of thinking.
  - mattalbie 9y ago
    I never said it was ok to treat people like that, or that I agree with that line of thinking at all. Describing something fascist doesn't make me fascist. Just that I suspect that is the calculation that goes on when a person decides to overlook this kind thing (which would normally be dealt with as a criminal action). Also tried to point out that there are countless stories of American diplomats and security teams behaving badly.
averagewall 9y ago
Turkey is a democracy. Most people there want Erdogan's government and they voted for it. Diplomatic immunity is part of international law and exists for good reasons. See the Vienna Convention: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Convention_on_Diplomatic_Relations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Convention_on_Diplomati... If you think that concept is wrong, why not address that or argue for the US to be exempt from the Vienna Convention?

cmurf 9y ago

This same scenario happened last year outside the Brookings Institution. I suspect the reason why there's such good video coverage of this year's attack, is they were ready for it, based on what happened last year. In the short term, I agree with John McCain, the Turkish ambassador to the U.S. should be expelled over this event. What precedes all of this is the U.S. supports the YPG, which Erdogan considers a terrorist organization. Pretty much any Kurdish organization is probably considered a terrorist organization to the Turkish government, however. The U.S. supports the YPG, makes Erdogan look weak in that he doesn't have enough sway to get one of their worst domestic political and ethnic enemies disenfranchised by the U.S. so Erdogan retaliates with thugs right in the U.S. capitol to embarrass the Trump (and last year the Obama) adminstration. It's tit for tat. Long term, is whether a Turkish autocracy, which is what it is now, a viable member in NATO? I think the U.S. looks the other way as long as Turkey helps fight Daesh. But Turkey is now a stain on NATO's democratic origin and purpose.

ajmurmann 9y ago
Even their commitment to fighting Daesh is highly questionable.
IIAOPSW 9y ago
>Long term, is whether a Turkish autocracy, which is what it is now, a viable member in NATO? I think the U.S. looks the other way as long as Turkey helps fight Daesh. But Turkey is now a stain on NATO's democratic origin and purpose. Unless Turkey loses control of the Bosphorous straits or Russia stops being what it is, Turkey will always be welcome at the table. Help with Daesh and/or pushing democratic ideas is neither the purpose of NATO, nor the origin of NATO, nor the future of NATO.
- cmurf 9y ago
  "NATO promotes democratic values" http://www.nato.int/nato-welcome/index.html http://www.nato.int/nato-welcome/index.html And Erdogan, right now, is doing the opposite of that. It is completely valid to question Turkey's role in NATO, but the current U.S. president doesn't care about or even understand what democracy is, because he's an ignoramous about pretty much everything. All he cares about is "winning" and that's why he praises autocrats like Erdogan, Duerte, Salman, Kim Jong Un, and el-Sisi, while criticizing American allies. I think he's kinda jealous of autocrats who get things done and doesn't have to deal with silly legislatures and courts. So I have no doubt that this administration will be fine with Turkey staying in NATO for the foreseeable future despite the incongruity on democratic values.

ajmurmann 9y ago

I hate to be that guy, but what's going on with that website? On my iPhone It scroll beyond the title. It keeps jumping back to the top immediately.

gefh 9y ago
Same on mobile chrome, in mobile or desktop mode. Very frustrating.

muse900 9y ago

I found this video a few days ago on reddit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWxm-bxgP9g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWxm-bxgP9g One thing that I found intriguing as an engineer is that Ertogan's bodyguards etc are trying to shout louder than the protesters. At first I thought ok thats natural, 2 parties have a disagreement and then each tries to be louder. The sound from Ertogan's trained personnel thought isn't exactly an argument. You'll hear through the whole video the sound : 'EEEEEEEEEE' coming up from his bodyguards which is definitely not argument, just a way to mask protesters voice. So to conclude my point, is that Ertogan has trained soldiers trying to shout louder than the protesters so he won't hear anything bad about him. Pretty much the same he is doing to his country by blocking wikipedia etc. I can only think of one other person that would do such a thing, Kim.

bigdubs 9y ago
DJT is not far off.
gech 9y ago
Trump

wavefunction 9y ago

I'm waiting for Mr. Erdogan's next visit to the United States. I plan to travel to D.C. then and stand in solidarity with anyone who wants to express their freedom of speech within the borders of the US. Mr. Erdogan and his thuggish retinue insulted the very nature of his hosts, who have been far too gracious to some very undeserving guests.

arca_vorago 9y ago

I immediately called for two things. The NRA to organize an armed protest, and to persona-non-grata all attackers not American citizens, and to arrest those that are and don't have DI (diplomatic immunity). What happened is the Turks are thugs, and when they heard/saw pro PKK "protestors" they consider "terrorists" they wanted to make an example of them. I'm guessing it was also a distraction technique for Erdogan to proceed to wherever he was headed. What is most shameful to me, is the response from the DC police. If armed foreign thugs are attacking americans, It's time to escalate force. They were straight up sucker-kicking/punching women and old men already on the ground... shots that could have killed or could cause concussion or brain damage. What no one is talking about is how deeply Turkey has infiltrated the US intel community (lookup Sibel Edmonds for more info), or the fact they we let Turkey get away with this stuff because of geostrategic realpolitik. Turkey is also funding and arming ISIS against the Kurds because to them the Kurds are a greater threat.

elihu 9y ago
There's not much the police could have done. Erdogan's bodyguards had guns and there were more of them -- possibly soldiers in the embassy with rifles, as well. There would have been a shootout, and most likely all of the police and perhaps some/all of the protesters as well would have been dead. I think we should be treating this as an attack by the government of Turkey against United States civilians. They are no longer an ally. I suspect that we unfortunately have more to lose than Turkey by ending our friendly relationship, but so be it. Staying in a dysfunctional relationship isn't good for either country. I would like to see the bodyguards prosecuted, but at the same time I expect they are operating under some kind of threat worse than what the United States legal system could potentially do to them. Maybe their wives and daughters will be arrested if they don't attack certain protesters? They may be in a no-win situation. The best thing may be to just get them to leave and not return, even if that offends our sense of justice.
- zo1 9y ago
  You know, as a libertarian, I constantly get told about the virtues of government and how we need it to protect us (you know, from wandering War Lords or some such). The police being an extension of that protection. And look what happened here. Helpless citizens, being beaten and attacked in plain site, in front of police, and even recorded doing it. And not a damn thing is done. Screw geo-politics, the police should by all means have escalated immediately, called for backup and arrested/shot the assailants. That is their job, we are told. You need only hypothesize what would have happened if this was a gathering of some sort of gang, and it was assaulting individuals the same way. This is a "war lord" from another land, attacking your citizens in front of you. The blatant double-standard should be enough to throw up red-flags for every single citizen seeing it.