15 ms·

The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

115 points by pmcpinto 9y ago

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
diogenescynic 9y ago
The drug war has failed. Legalize all drugs and tax them. Spend the tax money on rehab, schools, and public universities. We are just propping up drug lords in Latin America to feed our insatiable demand for drugs.
- DanBC 9y ago
  Many of the opioid addicts in the US are people who got legal meds through irresponsible prescribing. Legal opioids have caused massive addiction, and massive harm. The drug war clearly isn't working, and all drugs should be legalised, but we need to recognise that legal drugs will cause harm.
  - klibertp 9y ago
    > that legal drugs will cause harm. The GP specifically said to "tax them and spend the money on rehab and education", so I assume he did recognize this.
    - DanBC 9y ago
      That approach doesn't seem to have worked so well for alcohol.
      - noer 9y ago
        The tax revenue isn't spent on rehab though
      - refurb 9y ago
        Compared to what? During prohibition? I'd say things are much better now than then.
      - klibertp 9y ago
        I'm not sure. From what I've read it worked quite well in Scandinavian countries. For example, Norway, while consuming approximately the same amount of alcohol (with a slight upwards tendency, but with spirits usage going down in favor of wine), has had 20 years of non-stop reduction of deaths related to alcohol usage from 1980-2001 (http://www.who.int/substance_abuse/publications/en/norway.pdf http://www.who.int/substance_abuse/publications/en/norway.pd...). That, to an outsider like me, suggests that they have something that works, although I don't know exactly what it is.
  - kdelano 9y ago
    Agreed - I've seen friends prescribed opiates by doctors when clearly they were in need of mental support as well (therapy, life coaching, etc). I'm not sure how to overcome the fact that most people do not want to admit they need help or are not able to recognize it.
- meddlepal 9y ago
  How does legalizing fix or reduce addictions? I understand it makes acquisition less taboo, and perhaps makes treatment a less taboo subject too, but it's not like legalization is a pancea for addiction. Booze is legal and we still have a massive alcoholism problem.
  - jacquesm 9y ago
    It doesn't but neither does criminalizing fix or reduce addictions. Addictions are a health problem and quite possibly a mental issue but rarely a criminal problem.
  - mmjaa 9y ago
    Legalization doesn't fix addiction. It fixes the sub-culture, the underground, the dark layers in society where addicts lurk in order to be able to continue their addiction. Legalization brings these people into society, by removing the stigma associated with drug use, and makes it less of a problem to be swept under the rug. It makes it easier to contact addicts and get them into effective treatment programs. Right now, there is a huge wall between addicts and treatment: that wall is an entirely fictitious legal construct.
    - AOsborn 9y ago
      Well put.
    - pm90 9y ago
      Just to add one more thing to this excellent comment: legalization also makes it much easier to undertake scientific studies/research of the effect of (currently) illicit drugs, which might actually help us understand them better. e.g. we know very well exactly how much alcohol is considered "safe" or causing least damage; but we still don't know about the long term effects of e.g. MJ.
      - kogepathic 9y ago
        > legalization also makes it much easier to undertake scientific studies/research of the effect of (currently) illicit drugs Isn't this already possible in other countries? I would have thought this would already be possible in Portugal. [0] [0] http://content.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.html http://content.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,0...
- draw_down 9y ago
  OK, but we also need to fix this problem. It's an epidemic.
- jostmey 9y ago
  But the Heroin addiction crisis is the result of a legal drug trade--the prescription of Opioids.
gundul 9y ago
The winner of drug war is prison industry.
S_A_P 9y ago
This is a tough problem with no easy answer. Ive 2 friends with heroin problems that I fear may never fully stay clean. I don't think that jail is the right answer though.
- kingkawn 9y ago
  If jail was structured around rehabilitation of the roots causes that led the individuals into the anti-social behavior that requires their isolation then it would be the proper place for someone who has been overcome by problems like this. Instead jail is punitive hell, meant to further isolate and devastate the individuals it consumes to intimidate the rest of the population.
  - tyingq 9y ago
    And it's punitive forever. Your employment prospects once you have a felony conviction are severely limited.
  - tmp-20150107 9y ago
    So you're suggesting that anyone who is addicted to heroin should be jailed, as long as the prison system is trying to rehabilitate them from this alleged 'anti-social behaviour'? Surely a better system is to treat the addicts symptoms with programs that provide methadone or buprenorphine replacement and management, and also provide therapy or counselling as required.
- tyingq 9y ago
  Legalization would help in a couple ways. It should free up funds to redirect to something more productive around rehab. And, at least for newer addicts, it keeps them from having an arrest record that makes employment impossible. As it stands, it's quite difficult for anyone caught using to break the cycle. They can't get work, which leads to depression, which leads to continued drug use.
knownothing 9y ago
We invaded Afghanistan--the world's largest producer of poppies for heroin and opium--in 2001. Production has also been on the rise since then. An interesting correlation.
- tyingq 9y ago
  Most sources I can find say that the vast majority of heroin in the US comes from Mexico and South America.
  - knownothing 9y ago
    The poppies used for heroin production can be grown in South America but most of it comes from Asia.
    - tyingq 9y ago
      That's not what I see looking at reasonable sources. See https://www.unodc.org/documents/wdr2015/World_Drug_Report_2015.pdf https://www.unodc.org/documents/wdr2015/World_Drug_Report_20... for example. The vast majority of worldwide poppy for opiates is Asia, but the US is unique in that most of the poppy source for their heroin is coming from Columbia and Mexico. It is odd. Canada, for example, gets most of it's heroin via Afghanistan. The size of the lines in this map from the above mentioned resource is relative to the actual production source...where the poppies are, and where they end up as heroin. Note the fat lines from the south, and the thin one from the east. http://i.imgur.com/hvYXYeQ.png http://i.imgur.com/hvYXYeQ.png
      - knownothing 9y ago
        It does seem that most heroin consumed in the US originates in Mexico currently. However it is true that Afghanistan helps supply most (as in <90%) of the world's heroin, and their production is much greater than Mexico and South America as well. > The vast majority of worldwide poppy for opiates is Asia, but the US is unique in that most of the poppy source for their heroin is coming from Columbia and Mexico. It is odd. I think this is a signal that Mexican cartels have monopolized American markets. Smaller unaffiliated players are more likely to use trans-Pacific supply chains. It also seems that the cartels have vertically integrated their operations such that they now grow opium poppies and aren't reliant on South American countries for raw materials.
hourislate 9y ago
>Millions of Americans got hooked on pain pills during a prescription binge that started in the 1990s and peaked around 2011. As states have tightened monitoring and doctors have reduced dosages, it’s become harder for addicts to get prescription painkillers, driving many to get their fix off street drugs. I feel like the legalization of Marijuana years ago could have saved a lot of folks while helping them manage their pain. The Government found it easier to prosecute and jail people who struggled with chronic pain and mental illness than try to help. Now we have folks at the federal level who have never experienced an enlightened moment in their lives or have a shred of empathy for the sick. All they understand is how to help their friends in the Prison Industry, Law Enforcement and Pharma Industry. Sad....
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
SurrealSoul 9y ago
Cincinnati was my home town, and its bad. People joke about it but I know at least 3 people on my friendslist that overdosed. I'm glad the punishment for selling the drug is so high, often even sometimes receiving murder sentences for people that overdose but that isn't going to prevent people from buying / selling
- imroot 9y ago
  One of my good friends was rear ended by someone on heroin this week. Cincinnati police didn't even bother stopping to do a police report. Less than 20 minutes later, he hit a parked car in St. Bernard and was arrested for DUI, Driving under suspension, and no insurance. The guy has a felony charge pending (and an arrest warrant out for him)...and CPD just drove off without even taking a second look. I don't want to say that CPD has taken a blind eye to it, but, it seems that way.
  - mywittyname 9y ago
    CPD has been like this for as long as I can remember. I'm not sure if Cincinnati is a shit-hole because the police don't care, or the police don't care because the city is a shit-hole. I imagine it's a little bit of both.
- pixl97 9y ago
  If you go on the theory that your friends were going to use no matter what (I mean it's already illegal, so the law isn't stopping them), that the state is the cause of your friends death. They cannot buy any safe product of known quantities and thereby use an unsafe one.
weeksie 9y ago
Maybe I'm crazy but I feel like the US goes on this uppers/downers cycle. Of course I'm probably seeing patterns where there are none, but we had heroin in the seventies, cocaine/crack in the eighties, heroin was back in the 90s, meth in the 00s, heroin in the teens.
- thearn4 9y ago
  I hadn't noticed that pattern, but it is an interesting one.
- sosuke 9y ago
  I'm just pulling ideas out of thin air but I wonder if it connected with how good the economy is doing for the people buying drugs.
ada1981 9y ago
Legalize and tax/regulate production, purity, etc. Outlaw all marketing. Invest all profits in the following: 1) Ensuring all children have an attuned attachment figure / parents have free (or even incentivized) training to learn how to attune emotionally. 2) Psychedelic therapy centers to help heal the underlying addiction along with support and integration. 3) Community gardens / organic food production & affordable housing.
- krapp 9y ago
  > Legalize and tax/regulate production, purity, etc. Outlaw all marketing. Why outlaw marketing? If all drugs are legal and regulated, there should be no issue with advertising them like any other legal and regulated product. The US already allows advertising for pharmaceuticals, it should allow advertising for every other drug. And why should drug companies have to invest their profits in the programs you describe? No one forces beer companies to invest all of their profits in Alcoholics Anonymous, or MacDonalds to invest in weight loss programs. Your comment implies that you believe certain drugs would present a societal harm if legalized, and that extraordinary efforts should be taken to mitigate that damage. But if so, why legalize them to begin with?
  - maccard 9y ago
    If you look at countries that aren't the US, this is exactly how they treat alcohol. e.g. Diageo run the DrinkAware campaigns [0], france forbids any marketing of alcohol (even going as far as to rename a major sporting tournament the H cup instead of the heineken cup, and forcing teams to not display their sponsors on their kits) I'd argue that the US is wrong in allowing for pharmaceuticals as it does. In the UK, advertising is allowed for OTC drugs, but not prescription drugs [1] > Your comment implies that you believe certain drugs would present a societal harm if legalized, and that extraordinary efforts should be taken to mitigate that damage. But if so, why legalize them to begin with? Tobacco usage is associated with massive societal harm, and in european countries has very specific controls. In the UK, you cannot smoke in many places, there is no tobacco advertising allowed, all packaging must be plain (from this saturday I believe), and there is minimum pricing in place. I personally believe that people should be allowed to smoke if they choose to, but there is no denying that these measures have had a massive impact on the number of people who regularly smoke. (as an anecdote, almost all of my friends parents smoke, whereas almost none of my friends do) [0] http://www.harpers.co.uk/news/fullstory.php/aid/6465/Diageo_launches__responsible_drinking__website.html http://www.harpers.co.uk/news/fullstory.php/aid/6465/Diageo_... [1] https://www.gov.uk/guidance/advertise-your-medicines https://www.gov.uk/guidance/advertise-your-medicines
jcmoscon 9y ago
Read the "Red Cocaine" book to understand this war. It's an old book but the players didn't change.
parkeragee 9y ago
I think a lot of it comes down to the pharmaceutical companies. Instead of legalizing drugs and getting into some infinite loop of creating new addicts and spending the tax money to rehab & educate them, etc., we need to regulate the pharmaceutical companies. Shocking: In U.S. real estate, service providers (title companies, home inspection companies, etc.) are not allowed to give "kick-backs" to Realtors. But, we have pharmaceutical companies providing HUGE kick-backs to doctors for prescribing their patients meds they don't need.
throwaway2016a 9y ago
This is probably pop psychology but it always struck me that if you legalize marijuana you go a long way to solving the problem. My thoughts are... 1. It is reportedly a better pain killer in some cases than opioids so it keeps people off of the prescription opioids 2. It is nowhere near as addictive (possibly not addictive at all) 3. When people are already criminals (because they smoke weed) I think they are more likely to say "screw it" and try a harder drug. In the vein of, "I'm already doing something I can go to jail for, what's one more thing?" Legalizing keeps people out of the criminal class (increases barrier of entry to it) I'm actually for legalizing all drugs like several other posters but I don't think society is ready for that. I got in a argument with a close relative (a retired police officer) and another close relative (a doctor) about this on Easter. There arguments were entirely based on emotion and lot so logical fallacies. And understandably, they have both seen the darkest sides of what drugs can do. But criminalizing doesn't help those people.
- graphitezepp 9y ago
  I am pretty much with you. To add, 1. As far as I know, it doesn't actually kill pain, people just report that they no longer are bothered by the pain, or able to ignore it and still function. Which is probably better. 2. Fairly sure its not addictive at all in the pharmaceutical sense, and quite positive it can be in the way say World of Warcraft or other entertainment can be. 3. I actually buy the "gateway theory", but only because of this. Opposition seems to be the result of habit and years of ascribing negative virtue to recreational drug use (probably discounting alcohol cause cognitive dissonance).
  - posterboy 9y ago
    1. How can one still function if you don't care about most basic emotions like pain? Trickquestion, one can't.
- pavel_lishin 9y ago
  > I'm actually for legalizing all drugs like several other posters but I don't think society is ready for that. If society isn't ready for that, why are you for it? (fwiw, I'm with you on marijuana, and hope to see the day when it's as legal as cigarettes - but people have been optimistic about marijuana for decades :/)
madengr 9y ago
So is there anything stronger than carfentanil?
- _acme 9y ago
  Yes, lofentanil is slightly stronger.
- ridgeguy 9y ago
  Not clear. I seem to remember reading of a stronger fentanyl derivative within the last month or so, but can't immediately find the reference. If you're interested in the status of fentanyl and its derivatives, as well as the directions being explored for their pharmaceutical use, here's a well-written, chemistry-heavy article [1]. Not paywalled. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4137794/pdf/nihms591772.pdf https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4137794/pdf/nih...
  - madengr 9y ago
    Interesting that the lethal dosage for rats is 100x higher than monkeys.
Digory 9y ago
Russ Roberts' Econtalk podcast had a stunningly good interview with Sam Quinones about the opioid epidemic. I am fairly libertarian on many things, but this is not a simple case of prohibition run amok. Heroin/opioid addiction is close to a loss of free will, aided by screw ups from big pharma and Government healthcare policies. Really fascinating, sad, and difficult stuff. http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2017/01/sam_quinones_on.html http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2017/01/sam_quinones_on.htm...
- stronglikedan 9y ago
  > aided by screw ups from big pharma and Government healthcare policies. And ignorant lawmakers who try to stigmatize instead of educate with regards to harm prevention, and the private prisons who would rather incarcerate addicts instead of rehabilitate them, and the willfully ignorant lawmakers who get kickbacks from those private prisons (and likely big pharma, who IMHO is willfully complicit in this epidemic).
- egwynn 9y ago
  I think it’s rather generous of you to call them “screw ups” from big pharma.
  - Digory 9y ago
    The interview goes into the history of pharma's search for a non-addictive opiate. I assume that started with decent motives, even if not altruistic. The research critically failed a lot of people. Among other things, says Quinones's, it "transformed football into a gateway to heroin addiction..." The more recent big pharma position of "we never thought to ask why West Virginians are such good customers" deserves scorn, lawsuits, and prison time.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
cletus 9y ago
I'm not convinced that straight legalization of everything is the answer. It's clear however that what we're doing now isn't working. Unfortunately to those in favour of it it doesn't need to work. It's just a tool to be "tough on crime" and take a moral probably religious stance for the benefits of donors and constituents. None of this will really change until those in favour of dismantling what is mostly the mass incarceration of African Americans are willing to exercise sufficient political force to get people elected. But whatever the case, there are some clear problems that need to be fixed: 1. End this regime of stigmatizing felons. Stripping them of the right to vote, the scarlet letter "are you a felon?" question on job applications and so on. At some point, having served their time, the stigma should be gone. 2. End mandatory drug sentencing. 3. National legalization of recreational cannabis use. The arguments against cannabis are pretty thin. The war on marijuana that began in the 1970s made marijuana harder to get and more expensive such that when crack cocaine came along it and heroin were both more readily accessible and cheaper, which is crazy. 4. Decriminalize drug possession and start treating it as a medical rather than legal problem. 5. This is tricky but tackle the over-prescription of opiates in the US. This can easily go wrong as some people really do need opiates. It's clear that overall they're over-prescribed however. A lot of people addicted to prescription drugs or heroin began with a legal prescription. 6. Raise the bar required for drug trafficking charges. It's ridiculous how low the requirement can be in some jurisdictions. For example, possession of more than 6 grams of pills in Florida IIRC allows a charge of possession with the intent to distribute. That's approximately 60 pills and the actual dosage doesn't matter (60 5mg Oxy pills are treated the same as 60 80mg Oxy pills). This is particularly hypocritical as Florida has essentially legalized the dealing in opiates through loosely-regulated "pain clinics". 7. This is also difficult but we need to end the plea bargain culture, which usually means overcharging by prosecutors to extract a plea. Judging prosecutors based on conviction rate seems to be at the heart of this problem. I honestly wonder how many hard drug addicts could be avoided by simply having ready access to cannabis.
danschumann 9y ago
"It's one molecule away from heroin" I heard people say about oxycontein(sp?). If marijuana were legal, fewer people would be prescribed oxy, and therefore less gateways to heroin. The real gateway is the bad law of prohibition on marijuana.
egwynn 9y ago
I generally hear people saying two things: 1. “The gov't isn’t/wasn’t able to competently police big pharma, so addiction will only get worse if we legalize drugs.” 2. “The gov’t is policing citizens too much, so addicts’ lives will get ruined if we don’t legalize drugs.” I’d like everyone to consider the very real possibility that we’ll need to fix both problems before we reach a good place.
- pixl97 9y ago
  Or you should realize both problems cannot be fixed and we need to choose the option that will do the least harm. Reducing the abusive police state and treating increased numbers of abusers is likely a much better problem than the one we are currently experiencing.
chris_7 9y ago
Heroin, LSD, etc. use really doesn't affect me. I don't care if people use it, and don't want the government to waste money fighting it or whatever they do. I don't care if people manufacture it, as long as they follow all the usual regulations for dangerous chemical plants (like, don't have one in an apartment building). Anyone should be able to grow weed wherever they'd grow lettuce or whatever, no danger there. I also don't care if they sell it, as long as they collect sales tax and pay income tax, so that we can pay for welfare and healthcare and such. Let's have a war on smoking instead. I live in New York, and people think it's perfectly acceptable to light a cigarette while walking down the sidewalk and spew their fumes all over everyone walking behind them. Let's punish that like we'd punish them for punching random people on the sidewalk. Hey, if someone hits me and they're not a trained boxer, I'll probably feel fine a few minutes later, but that cancer smoke builds up over time. Then we can move on to exhaust-producing vehicles, and so on...
- koolba 9y ago
  I don't recall any incidents of junkies robbing people to buy a pack of Marlboros.
  - jjawssd 9y ago
    Junkies wouldn't need to rob people of as many things if these drugs were cheap as dirt
    - koolba 9y ago
      They'd still rob people. Heroin is already very cheap. That's one of the drivers of people moving to it from prescription opiates. Dropping the price further isn't going to make much difference.
  - wavefunction 9y ago
    Would you count people shoplifting them as that?
jostmey 9y ago
Isn't it possible to create poison genes using CRISPR that are always dominant and will lead to a species extinction? Why not apply this technology to completely eliminate Opioid plants? P.S. I am sure there are many reasons why this won't work, but let's think big, okay?
- base698 9y ago
  I like the idea of having poppies when doctors are fishing around in my body with scalpels or after I break a femur. Eliminating would just punish those who don't make questionable life decisions.
- pixl97 9y ago
  Um, you're not thinking big enough, and there is a large number of failures of imagination you are experiencing. First, opioids are actually really good when you don't abuse them. Just go break your leg and you'll see why. Second, you are suffering from the sci-fy show "use space age technology yet still have modern problems" thing you see. If you can 'extinct' poppies, I can just as easily use CRISPR to stick those genes in anything else. It's not corn, it's my cash crop! If you have supertechnology don't fix plants, fix people.
jondubois 9y ago
All drugs should be legalized. It would help with population control.
toymachiner62 9y ago
Maybe i'm an insensitive Mofo, but let the dumbasses OD and educate how dangerous these drugs are. Then maybe the next generation will be smarter.
- conanbatt 9y ago
  I think im way more selfish than you are. I much rather having them working to do things i will consume. If they die early, how am i to enjoy the produce of their work? I certainly dont want to sacrifice my quality of life for the profits of a drugs salesman
- MarkLowenstein 9y ago
  This. Look at this HN discussion: so much hand-wringing of "we should do this! The government should do that! The government shouldn't do this!" And the problem continues no matter what all these people try. Now ask yourself, what is the one idea that no one will listen to or accept? It's this guy's. Think about it.
- theandrewbailey 9y ago
  I'm a Libertarian: legalize them all and let God sort it out.
- sctb 9y ago
  Please make your point civilly and substantively or don't post. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
smogcutter 9y ago
Anyone else notice that a common theme in the recent wave of handwringing over heroin and opioid addiction is that the victims we're asked to consider with compassion and understanding are almost always white? The tough on crime drug war rhetoric disappears so easily when the victims are "regular people" who fell prey to the pharma industry, not "junkies". I'm not saying that we shouldn't treat these people with compassion -- exactly the opposite. The LA Times series in particular is a fantastic piece of reporting. Rather, I'm saying we should consider why the portrayal of this particular drug epidemic is so different than others, and how we can extend the same compassion to others who have also had their lives and families destroyed by drugs. We hear about these people because they're white. Meanwhile, what's happening to the people we don't hear about?
- Analemma_ 9y ago
  You're definitely not the only one to notice, there have even been articles about it. It's pretty disgusting, but from a utilitarian perspective, caring for victims is better than not caring out of spite. About all we can do is hope that once we get this particular epidemic cleaned up, the next time one comes around that mainly affects poor blacks, we remember the lessons learned.
- keebEz 9y ago
  Not sure but the media during the crack epidemic sure focused on non-white people... And that just further perpetrated the idea and image that non-white people do drugs and thus are bad. This seems like a way to raise awareness in a more responsible way.
- baldfat 9y ago
  I agree with your point 100% BUT there is one point to be made. Prosecute the Pharm Execs, Doctors who broke the law. There is a smoking gun! Look at West Virginia and the pills that were prescribed. I am talking about 780,000,000 pain meds. In a state of 1.84 million residents, the shipments amount to 433 pain pills for every man, woman and child in West Virginia. The death toll for this 5 year time between 2007-2012 is 1,728 West Virginians died from overdoses of hydrocodone and oxycodone. http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Drug-Wholesalers-Shipped-780M-Pain-Pills-to-West-Virginia-407331135.html http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Drug-Wholesalers-Shi... So you are 100% right about public perception. I live in a large city in PA and my In-laws come to visit from W.Va and I always tell them I see more people high in W.Va then in my Center City neighborhood and they always roll their eyes like I am crazy.

115 points by pmcpinto 9y ago

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

The drug war has failed. Legalize all drugs and tax them. Spend the tax money on rehab, schools, and public universities. We are just propping up drug lords in Latin America to feed our insatiable demand for drugs.

DanBC 9y ago
Many of the opioid addicts in the US are people who got legal meds through irresponsible prescribing. Legal opioids have caused massive addiction, and massive harm. The drug war clearly isn't working, and all drugs should be legalised, but we need to recognise that legal drugs will cause harm.
- klibertp 9y ago
  > that legal drugs will cause harm. The GP specifically said to "tax them and spend the money on rehab and education", so I assume he did recognize this.
  - DanBC 9y ago
    That approach doesn't seem to have worked so well for alcohol.
    - noer 9y ago
      The tax revenue isn't spent on rehab though
    - refurb 9y ago
      Compared to what? During prohibition? I'd say things are much better now than then.
    - klibertp 9y ago
      I'm not sure. From what I've read it worked quite well in Scandinavian countries. For example, Norway, while consuming approximately the same amount of alcohol (with a slight upwards tendency, but with spirits usage going down in favor of wine), has had 20 years of non-stop reduction of deaths related to alcohol usage from 1980-2001 (http://www.who.int/substance_abuse/publications/en/norway.pdf http://www.who.int/substance_abuse/publications/en/norway.pd...). That, to an outsider like me, suggests that they have something that works, although I don't know exactly what it is.
- kdelano 9y ago
  Agreed - I've seen friends prescribed opiates by doctors when clearly they were in need of mental support as well (therapy, life coaching, etc). I'm not sure how to overcome the fact that most people do not want to admit they need help or are not able to recognize it.
meddlepal 9y ago
How does legalizing fix or reduce addictions? I understand it makes acquisition less taboo, and perhaps makes treatment a less taboo subject too, but it's not like legalization is a pancea for addiction. Booze is legal and we still have a massive alcoholism problem.
- jacquesm 9y ago
  It doesn't but neither does criminalizing fix or reduce addictions. Addictions are a health problem and quite possibly a mental issue but rarely a criminal problem.
- mmjaa 9y ago
  Legalization doesn't fix addiction. It fixes the sub-culture, the underground, the dark layers in society where addicts lurk in order to be able to continue their addiction. Legalization brings these people into society, by removing the stigma associated with drug use, and makes it less of a problem to be swept under the rug. It makes it easier to contact addicts and get them into effective treatment programs. Right now, there is a huge wall between addicts and treatment: that wall is an entirely fictitious legal construct.
  - AOsborn 9y ago
    Well put.
  - pm90 9y ago
    Just to add one more thing to this excellent comment: legalization also makes it much easier to undertake scientific studies/research of the effect of (currently) illicit drugs, which might actually help us understand them better. e.g. we know very well exactly how much alcohol is considered "safe" or causing least damage; but we still don't know about the long term effects of e.g. MJ.
    - kogepathic 9y ago
      > legalization also makes it much easier to undertake scientific studies/research of the effect of (currently) illicit drugs Isn't this already possible in other countries? I would have thought this would already be possible in Portugal. [0] [0] http://content.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.html http://content.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,0...
draw_down 9y ago
OK, but we also need to fix this problem. It's an epidemic.
jostmey 9y ago
But the Heroin addiction crisis is the result of a legal drug trade--the prescription of Opioids.

gundul 9y ago

The winner of drug war is prison industry.

S_A_P 9y ago

This is a tough problem with no easy answer. Ive 2 friends with heroin problems that I fear may never fully stay clean. I don't think that jail is the right answer though.

kingkawn 9y ago
If jail was structured around rehabilitation of the roots causes that led the individuals into the anti-social behavior that requires their isolation then it would be the proper place for someone who has been overcome by problems like this. Instead jail is punitive hell, meant to further isolate and devastate the individuals it consumes to intimidate the rest of the population.
- tyingq 9y ago
  And it's punitive forever. Your employment prospects once you have a felony conviction are severely limited.
- tmp-20150107 9y ago
  So you're suggesting that anyone who is addicted to heroin should be jailed, as long as the prison system is trying to rehabilitate them from this alleged 'anti-social behaviour'? Surely a better system is to treat the addicts symptoms with programs that provide methadone or buprenorphine replacement and management, and also provide therapy or counselling as required.
tyingq 9y ago
Legalization would help in a couple ways. It should free up funds to redirect to something more productive around rehab. And, at least for newer addicts, it keeps them from having an arrest record that makes employment impossible. As it stands, it's quite difficult for anyone caught using to break the cycle. They can't get work, which leads to depression, which leads to continued drug use.

knownothing 9y ago

We invaded Afghanistan--the world's largest producer of poppies for heroin and opium--in 2001. Production has also been on the rise since then. An interesting correlation.

tyingq 9y ago
Most sources I can find say that the vast majority of heroin in the US comes from Mexico and South America.
- knownothing 9y ago
  The poppies used for heroin production can be grown in South America but most of it comes from Asia.
  - tyingq 9y ago
    That's not what I see looking at reasonable sources. See https://www.unodc.org/documents/wdr2015/World_Drug_Report_2015.pdf https://www.unodc.org/documents/wdr2015/World_Drug_Report_20... for example. The vast majority of worldwide poppy for opiates is Asia, but the US is unique in that most of the poppy source for their heroin is coming from Columbia and Mexico. It is odd. Canada, for example, gets most of it's heroin via Afghanistan. The size of the lines in this map from the above mentioned resource is relative to the actual production source...where the poppies are, and where they end up as heroin. Note the fat lines from the south, and the thin one from the east. http://i.imgur.com/hvYXYeQ.png http://i.imgur.com/hvYXYeQ.png
    - knownothing 9y ago
      It does seem that most heroin consumed in the US originates in Mexico currently. However it is true that Afghanistan helps supply most (as in <90%) of the world's heroin, and their production is much greater than Mexico and South America as well. > The vast majority of worldwide poppy for opiates is Asia, but the US is unique in that most of the poppy source for their heroin is coming from Columbia and Mexico. It is odd. I think this is a signal that Mexican cartels have monopolized American markets. Smaller unaffiliated players are more likely to use trans-Pacific supply chains. It also seems that the cartels have vertically integrated their operations such that they now grow opium poppies and aren't reliant on South American countries for raw materials.

hourislate 9y ago

>Millions of Americans got hooked on pain pills during a prescription binge that started in the 1990s and peaked around 2011. As states have tightened monitoring and doctors have reduced dosages, it’s become harder for addicts to get prescription painkillers, driving many to get their fix off street drugs. I feel like the legalization of Marijuana years ago could have saved a lot of folks while helping them manage their pain. The Government found it easier to prosecute and jail people who struggled with chronic pain and mental illness than try to help. Now we have folks at the federal level who have never experienced an enlightened moment in their lives or have a shred of empathy for the sick. All they understand is how to help their friends in the Prison Industry, Law Enforcement and Pharma Industry. Sad....

deleted 9y ago
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SurrealSoul 9y ago

Cincinnati was my home town, and its bad. People joke about it but I know at least 3 people on my friendslist that overdosed. I'm glad the punishment for selling the drug is so high, often even sometimes receiving murder sentences for people that overdose but that isn't going to prevent people from buying / selling

imroot 9y ago
One of my good friends was rear ended by someone on heroin this week. Cincinnati police didn't even bother stopping to do a police report. Less than 20 minutes later, he hit a parked car in St. Bernard and was arrested for DUI, Driving under suspension, and no insurance. The guy has a felony charge pending (and an arrest warrant out for him)...and CPD just drove off without even taking a second look. I don't want to say that CPD has taken a blind eye to it, but, it seems that way.
- mywittyname 9y ago
  CPD has been like this for as long as I can remember. I'm not sure if Cincinnati is a shit-hole because the police don't care, or the police don't care because the city is a shit-hole. I imagine it's a little bit of both.
pixl97 9y ago
If you go on the theory that your friends were going to use no matter what (I mean it's already illegal, so the law isn't stopping them), that the state is the cause of your friends death. They cannot buy any safe product of known quantities and thereby use an unsafe one.

weeksie 9y ago

Maybe I'm crazy but I feel like the US goes on this uppers/downers cycle. Of course I'm probably seeing patterns where there are none, but we had heroin in the seventies, cocaine/crack in the eighties, heroin was back in the 90s, meth in the 00s, heroin in the teens.

thearn4 9y ago
I hadn't noticed that pattern, but it is an interesting one.
sosuke 9y ago
I'm just pulling ideas out of thin air but I wonder if it connected with how good the economy is doing for the people buying drugs.

ada1981 9y ago

Legalize and tax/regulate production, purity, etc. Outlaw all marketing. Invest all profits in the following: 1) Ensuring all children have an attuned attachment figure / parents have free (or even incentivized) training to learn how to attune emotionally. 2) Psychedelic therapy centers to help heal the underlying addiction along with support and integration. 3) Community gardens / organic food production & affordable housing.

krapp 9y ago
> Legalize and tax/regulate production, purity, etc. Outlaw all marketing. Why outlaw marketing? If all drugs are legal and regulated, there should be no issue with advertising them like any other legal and regulated product. The US already allows advertising for pharmaceuticals, it should allow advertising for every other drug. And why should drug companies have to invest their profits in the programs you describe? No one forces beer companies to invest all of their profits in Alcoholics Anonymous, or MacDonalds to invest in weight loss programs. Your comment implies that you believe certain drugs would present a societal harm if legalized, and that extraordinary efforts should be taken to mitigate that damage. But if so, why legalize them to begin with?
- maccard 9y ago
  If you look at countries that aren't the US, this is exactly how they treat alcohol. e.g. Diageo run the DrinkAware campaigns [0], france forbids any marketing of alcohol (even going as far as to rename a major sporting tournament the H cup instead of the heineken cup, and forcing teams to not display their sponsors on their kits) I'd argue that the US is wrong in allowing for pharmaceuticals as it does. In the UK, advertising is allowed for OTC drugs, but not prescription drugs [1] > Your comment implies that you believe certain drugs would present a societal harm if legalized, and that extraordinary efforts should be taken to mitigate that damage. But if so, why legalize them to begin with? Tobacco usage is associated with massive societal harm, and in european countries has very specific controls. In the UK, you cannot smoke in many places, there is no tobacco advertising allowed, all packaging must be plain (from this saturday I believe), and there is minimum pricing in place. I personally believe that people should be allowed to smoke if they choose to, but there is no denying that these measures have had a massive impact on the number of people who regularly smoke. (as an anecdote, almost all of my friends parents smoke, whereas almost none of my friends do) [0] http://www.harpers.co.uk/news/fullstory.php/aid/6465/Diageo_launches__responsible_drinking__website.html http://www.harpers.co.uk/news/fullstory.php/aid/6465/Diageo_... [1] https://www.gov.uk/guidance/advertise-your-medicines https://www.gov.uk/guidance/advertise-your-medicines

jcmoscon 9y ago

Read the "Red Cocaine" book to understand this war. It's an old book but the players didn't change.

parkeragee 9y ago

I think a lot of it comes down to the pharmaceutical companies. Instead of legalizing drugs and getting into some infinite loop of creating new addicts and spending the tax money to rehab & educate them, etc., we need to regulate the pharmaceutical companies. Shocking: In U.S. real estate, service providers (title companies, home inspection companies, etc.) are not allowed to give "kick-backs" to Realtors. But, we have pharmaceutical companies providing HUGE kick-backs to doctors for prescribing their patients meds they don't need.

throwaway2016a 9y ago

This is probably pop psychology but it always struck me that if you legalize marijuana you go a long way to solving the problem. My thoughts are... 1. It is reportedly a better pain killer in some cases than opioids so it keeps people off of the prescription opioids 2. It is nowhere near as addictive (possibly not addictive at all) 3. When people are already criminals (because they smoke weed) I think they are more likely to say "screw it" and try a harder drug. In the vein of, "I'm already doing something I can go to jail for, what's one more thing?" Legalizing keeps people out of the criminal class (increases barrier of entry to it) I'm actually for legalizing all drugs like several other posters but I don't think society is ready for that. I got in a argument with a close relative (a retired police officer) and another close relative (a doctor) about this on Easter. There arguments were entirely based on emotion and lot so logical fallacies. And understandably, they have both seen the darkest sides of what drugs can do. But criminalizing doesn't help those people.

graphitezepp 9y ago
I am pretty much with you. To add, 1. As far as I know, it doesn't actually kill pain, people just report that they no longer are bothered by the pain, or able to ignore it and still function. Which is probably better. 2. Fairly sure its not addictive at all in the pharmaceutical sense, and quite positive it can be in the way say World of Warcraft or other entertainment can be. 3. I actually buy the "gateway theory", but only because of this. Opposition seems to be the result of habit and years of ascribing negative virtue to recreational drug use (probably discounting alcohol cause cognitive dissonance).
- posterboy 9y ago
  1. How can one still function if you don't care about most basic emotions like pain? Trickquestion, one can't.
pavel_lishin 9y ago
> I'm actually for legalizing all drugs like several other posters but I don't think society is ready for that. If society isn't ready for that, why are you for it? (fwiw, I'm with you on marijuana, and hope to see the day when it's as legal as cigarettes - but people have been optimistic about marijuana for decades :/)

madengr 9y ago

So is there anything stronger than carfentanil?

_acme 9y ago
Yes, lofentanil is slightly stronger.
ridgeguy 9y ago
Not clear. I seem to remember reading of a stronger fentanyl derivative within the last month or so, but can't immediately find the reference. If you're interested in the status of fentanyl and its derivatives, as well as the directions being explored for their pharmaceutical use, here's a well-written, chemistry-heavy article [1]. Not paywalled. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4137794/pdf/nihms591772.pdf https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4137794/pdf/nih...
- madengr 9y ago
  Interesting that the lethal dosage for rats is 100x higher than monkeys.

Digory 9y ago

Russ Roberts' Econtalk podcast had a stunningly good interview with Sam Quinones about the opioid epidemic. I am fairly libertarian on many things, but this is not a simple case of prohibition run amok. Heroin/opioid addiction is close to a loss of free will, aided by screw ups from big pharma and Government healthcare policies. Really fascinating, sad, and difficult stuff. http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2017/01/sam_quinones_on.html http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2017/01/sam_quinones_on.htm...

stronglikedan 9y ago
> aided by screw ups from big pharma and Government healthcare policies. And ignorant lawmakers who try to stigmatize instead of educate with regards to harm prevention, and the private prisons who would rather incarcerate addicts instead of rehabilitate them, and the willfully ignorant lawmakers who get kickbacks from those private prisons (and likely big pharma, who IMHO is willfully complicit in this epidemic).
egwynn 9y ago
I think it’s rather generous of you to call them “screw ups” from big pharma.
- Digory 9y ago
  The interview goes into the history of pharma's search for a non-addictive opiate. I assume that started with decent motives, even if not altruistic. The research critically failed a lot of people. Among other things, says Quinones's, it "transformed football into a gateway to heroin addiction..." The more recent big pharma position of "we never thought to ask why West Virginians are such good customers" deserves scorn, lawsuits, and prison time.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]

cletus 9y ago

I'm not convinced that straight legalization of everything is the answer. It's clear however that what we're doing now isn't working. Unfortunately to those in favour of it it doesn't need to work. It's just a tool to be "tough on crime" and take a moral probably religious stance for the benefits of donors and constituents. None of this will really change until those in favour of dismantling what is mostly the mass incarceration of African Americans are willing to exercise sufficient political force to get people elected. But whatever the case, there are some clear problems that need to be fixed: 1. End this regime of stigmatizing felons. Stripping them of the right to vote, the scarlet letter "are you a felon?" question on job applications and so on. At some point, having served their time, the stigma should be gone. 2. End mandatory drug sentencing. 3. National legalization of recreational cannabis use. The arguments against cannabis are pretty thin. The war on marijuana that began in the 1970s made marijuana harder to get and more expensive such that when crack cocaine came along it and heroin were both more readily accessible and cheaper, which is crazy. 4. Decriminalize drug possession and start treating it as a medical rather than legal problem. 5. This is tricky but tackle the over-prescription of opiates in the US. This can easily go wrong as some people really do need opiates. It's clear that overall they're over-prescribed however. A lot of people addicted to prescription drugs or heroin began with a legal prescription. 6. Raise the bar required for drug trafficking charges. It's ridiculous how low the requirement can be in some jurisdictions. For example, possession of more than 6 grams of pills in Florida IIRC allows a charge of possession with the intent to distribute. That's approximately 60 pills and the actual dosage doesn't matter (60 5mg Oxy pills are treated the same as 60 80mg Oxy pills). This is particularly hypocritical as Florida has essentially legalized the dealing in opiates through loosely-regulated "pain clinics". 7. This is also difficult but we need to end the plea bargain culture, which usually means overcharging by prosecutors to extract a plea. Judging prosecutors based on conviction rate seems to be at the heart of this problem. I honestly wonder how many hard drug addicts could be avoided by simply having ready access to cannabis.

danschumann 9y ago

"It's one molecule away from heroin" I heard people say about oxycontein(sp?). If marijuana were legal, fewer people would be prescribed oxy, and therefore less gateways to heroin. The real gateway is the bad law of prohibition on marijuana.

egwynn 9y ago

I generally hear people saying two things: 1. “The gov't isn’t/wasn’t able to competently police big pharma, so addiction will only get worse if we legalize drugs.” 2. “The gov’t is policing citizens too much, so addicts’ lives will get ruined if we don’t legalize drugs.” I’d like everyone to consider the very real possibility that we’ll need to fix both problems before we reach a good place.

pixl97 9y ago
Or you should realize both problems cannot be fixed and we need to choose the option that will do the least harm. Reducing the abusive police state and treating increased numbers of abusers is likely a much better problem than the one we are currently experiencing.

chris_7 9y ago

Heroin, LSD, etc. use really doesn't affect me. I don't care if people use it, and don't want the government to waste money fighting it or whatever they do. I don't care if people manufacture it, as long as they follow all the usual regulations for dangerous chemical plants (like, don't have one in an apartment building). Anyone should be able to grow weed wherever they'd grow lettuce or whatever, no danger there. I also don't care if they sell it, as long as they collect sales tax and pay income tax, so that we can pay for welfare and healthcare and such. Let's have a war on smoking instead. I live in New York, and people think it's perfectly acceptable to light a cigarette while walking down the sidewalk and spew their fumes all over everyone walking behind them. Let's punish that like we'd punish them for punching random people on the sidewalk. Hey, if someone hits me and they're not a trained boxer, I'll probably feel fine a few minutes later, but that cancer smoke builds up over time. Then we can move on to exhaust-producing vehicles, and so on...

koolba 9y ago
I don't recall any incidents of junkies robbing people to buy a pack of Marlboros.
- jjawssd 9y ago
  Junkies wouldn't need to rob people of as many things if these drugs were cheap as dirt
  - koolba 9y ago
    They'd still rob people. Heroin is already very cheap. That's one of the drivers of people moving to it from prescription opiates. Dropping the price further isn't going to make much difference.
- wavefunction 9y ago
  Would you count people shoplifting them as that?

jostmey 9y ago

Isn't it possible to create poison genes using CRISPR that are always dominant and will lead to a species extinction? Why not apply this technology to completely eliminate Opioid plants? P.S. I am sure there are many reasons why this won't work, but let's think big, okay?

base698 9y ago
I like the idea of having poppies when doctors are fishing around in my body with scalpels or after I break a femur. Eliminating would just punish those who don't make questionable life decisions.
pixl97 9y ago
Um, you're not thinking big enough, and there is a large number of failures of imagination you are experiencing. First, opioids are actually really good when you don't abuse them. Just go break your leg and you'll see why. Second, you are suffering from the sci-fy show "use space age technology yet still have modern problems" thing you see. If you can 'extinct' poppies, I can just as easily use CRISPR to stick those genes in anything else. It's not corn, it's my cash crop! If you have supertechnology don't fix plants, fix people.

jondubois 9y ago

All drugs should be legalized. It would help with population control.

toymachiner62 9y ago

Maybe i'm an insensitive Mofo, but let the dumbasses OD and educate how dangerous these drugs are. Then maybe the next generation will be smarter.

conanbatt 9y ago
I think im way more selfish than you are. I much rather having them working to do things i will consume. If they die early, how am i to enjoy the produce of their work? I certainly dont want to sacrifice my quality of life for the profits of a drugs salesman
MarkLowenstein 9y ago
This. Look at this HN discussion: so much hand-wringing of "we should do this! The government should do that! The government shouldn't do this!" And the problem continues no matter what all these people try. Now ask yourself, what is the one idea that no one will listen to or accept? It's this guy's. Think about it.
theandrewbailey 9y ago
I'm a Libertarian: legalize them all and let God sort it out.
sctb 9y ago
Please make your point civilly and substantively or don't post. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

smogcutter 9y ago

Anyone else notice that a common theme in the recent wave of handwringing over heroin and opioid addiction is that the victims we're asked to consider with compassion and understanding are almost always white? The tough on crime drug war rhetoric disappears so easily when the victims are "regular people" who fell prey to the pharma industry, not "junkies". I'm not saying that we shouldn't treat these people with compassion -- exactly the opposite. The LA Times series in particular is a fantastic piece of reporting. Rather, I'm saying we should consider why the portrayal of this particular drug epidemic is so different than others, and how we can extend the same compassion to others who have also had their lives and families destroyed by drugs. We hear about these people because they're white. Meanwhile, what's happening to the people we don't hear about?

Analemma_ 9y ago
You're definitely not the only one to notice, there have even been articles about it. It's pretty disgusting, but from a utilitarian perspective, caring for victims is better than not caring out of spite. About all we can do is hope that once we get this particular epidemic cleaned up, the next time one comes around that mainly affects poor blacks, we remember the lessons learned.
keebEz 9y ago
Not sure but the media during the crack epidemic sure focused on non-white people... And that just further perpetrated the idea and image that non-white people do drugs and thus are bad. This seems like a way to raise awareness in a more responsible way.
baldfat 9y ago
I agree with your point 100% BUT there is one point to be made. Prosecute the Pharm Execs, Doctors who broke the law. There is a smoking gun! Look at West Virginia and the pills that were prescribed. I am talking about 780,000,000 pain meds. In a state of 1.84 million residents, the shipments amount to 433 pain pills for every man, woman and child in West Virginia. The death toll for this 5 year time between 2007-2012 is 1,728 West Virginians died from overdoses of hydrocodone and oxycodone. http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Drug-Wholesalers-Shipped-780M-Pain-Pills-to-West-Virginia-407331135.html http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Drug-Wholesalers-Shi... So you are 100% right about public perception. I live in a large city in PA and my In-laws come to visit from W.Va and I always tell them I see more people high in W.Va then in my Center City neighborhood and they always roll their eyes like I am crazy.