8 ms·
Moom removed from sale due to patent violation claim
- oneeyedpigeon 9y agoOh dear. I guess Spectacle (the app I use that does a similar thing) will be on a pretty long list of those to follow.
- idbehold 9y agoDoes Spectical have a grid UI like that? I've only ever used keyboard shortcuts to position the windows using it. If it doesn't have that grid UI selector thing then I think it's fine.
- tedd4u 9y agoSpectacle has keyboard shortcuts - in fact, I think that's all it has. All I use it for at least. The first command sets the window to 1/2 width (or height), second tap sets it to 2/3, third tap sets it to 1/3. Works great for me. Also I should note it's OSS.
- justintoon 9y agoI've been using Magnet for a while now. It seems much more stable and efficient than Spectacle. Hopefully it will not end up on this chopping block as well. http://magnet.crowdcafe.com/ http://magnet.crowdcafe.com/
- intopieces 9y agoIs there a similar app for Ubuntu-flavor Linux? I use it on MacOS, but sometimes play around with Linux on a laptop with a terrible track pad. I know you can customize keyboard shortcuts but haven't been able to replicate Magnet precisely.
- zoul 9y agoMagnet author here. We’re from Europe, Czech Republic in particular, so I don’t think we’re a viable target for a US patent troll. Glad you like our app!
- jorvi 9y agoHey, I mailed you guys but you never responded :( Would it be possible to add sort of a tiling window manager mode that would disallow stacking and force any open window to adhere to a 6x6 (or whatever) grid? Sort of like Amethyst..
- zoul 9y agoSorry about that! We have considered adding more features, but it’s impossible to do that while keeping the app reliable and simple, so it’s likely to stay this way.
- KiDD 9y agoI too am a Magnet user!
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- Plugawy 9y agoInteresting, I guess there's so much prior work around* it should be easy to dismiss the patent. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiling_window_manager https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiling_window_manager
- jeroenhd 9y agoExactly! The first thing I thought of when I read the title of the patent was the tmux session I had opened in my terminal. Given how GNU/Unix Screen has been available for thirty years I doubt this patent will hold up in court.
- kalleboo 9y ago> I doubt this patent will hold up in court. Of course the problem with the patent system is, who can afford to court? Even if they get completely pro-bono legal help from someone like the EFF, it's a massive time-sink and also means their game is no longer on sale.
- geocar 9y ago> The first thing I thought of when I read the title of the patent was the tmux session I had opened Looking at these screenshots[1] and these diagrams[2] I can't possibly agree that this is what you're doing with tmux. [1]: http://web.archive.org/web/20110309004337/https://manytricks.com/moom/ http://web.archive.org/web/20110309004337/https://manytricks... [2]: https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/US20130219331A1/US20130219331A1-20130822-D00000.png https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/US20130219331A1/... > I doubt this patent will hold up in court. I don't think a judge would be amused by that defence either.
- asdfgadsfgasfdg 9y agoI agree this set up of window positioning is much less useful than actual tiling window managers.
- wereHamster 9y agoPlease go read the patent, it describes an "apparatus and method" that is much more advanced than traditional tiling window managers. The patent doesn't even compare to simple terminal based tiling of sub-shells. It also describes a GUI to control the positions, and describes in detail how it's supposed to work. There is a section "Description of the Related Art" in the patent which makes references to existing (at that time, year 2008) approaches and why they are not good enough. Example: "[...] Windows provides [...] commands which are accessible from the Windows taskbar. However, these commands are not as intuitive as they could be and they do not provide a desired level of control when positioning windows".
- altern8tif 9y agoThere's something fundamentally broken about the patent system.
- ivanbakel 9y agoIt's difficult to say where the fault lies. I would rather live in a world of patents than not, if we insist on sticking to the idea of not forcing research and discoveries into the public domain. What would have prevented this particular case?
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- _asummers 9y agoThis is an obvious feature for just about any user, making it nonpatentable by the criteria of USPTO, as far as I understand it. This is also not novel, though it is very useful (for the other 2 criteria).
- dragandj 9y agoThe problem with that in the USA is that you are burdened to prove that in court as a defendant, and you also have to pay your legal costs (lawyers etc.) even if you win the case. The costs are huge, so only the big guys have to afford defending themselves!
- _asummers 9y agoAbsolutely, but I'm more talking in the initial patent approval than the litigation afterwards.
- DanBC 9y ago> This is also not novel What other tiling WMs included a gui menu in the title bar to select the layout?
- Radle 9y ago
- beshrkayali 9y agoAre there any interesting stats/graphs or an estimated percentage of US-granted patents that are bullshit?
- amelius 9y agoThe problem: bullshit is in the eye of the beholder.
- shafiqissani 9y agoKinda feels the same to me as when they tried to patent Turmeric.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- qwerty_asdf 9y agoThis person holds a number of similar patents from the looks of it: https://www.google.com/patents/US8434019 https://www.google.com/patents/US8434019 https://www.google.com/search?q="Daniel+Paul+Nelson" https://www.google.com/search?q="Daniel+Paul+Nelson"
- janten 9y agoIf anyone is looking for an alternative: I put together a grid based window manager without an UI some months ago. https://github.com/janten/keypad-layout https://github.com/janten/keypad-layout
- rapind 9y agoLooks great!
- Nemcue 9y agoCool stuff! I built the same thing but with configurable size grid using Hammerspoon.
- nowherecat 9y agoThis is awesome! Thanks
- codazoda 9y agoThis looks pretty cool. I'm on a phone, so didn't look at source, but I'm curious about install procedure (also see an issue about brew). As a web dev, I think I'd like to see this work like a css grid. Width then height. So, ^3^2 would be three columns two rows. Maybe that won't work in practice. Maybe I'll play with the code to see.
- janten 9y agoRight now it is a simple download from GitHub though I have already submitted a pull request to brew cask. Thank you for opening the issue which finally motivated me to do this. The tool does work like a grid but with start and end positions instead of sizes so you can move and resize at the same time. ^1^3 is from position (1,1) to (3,1) (i.e. top row), ^1^6 is (1,1) to (3,2) (top two-thirds) etc. You can basically paint the location and size of the window using your numeric keypad. Its pretty straightforward once you try it.
- codazoda 9y agoThis looks pretty cool. I'm on a phone, so didn't look at source, but I'm curious about install procedure (also see an issue about brew). As a web dev, I think I'd like to see this work like a css grid. Width then height. So, ^3^2 would be three columns two rows. Maybe that won't work in practice. Maybe I'll play with the code to see.
- mjw1007 9y agoThe patent describes something very like Moom's "Grid" feature (I think the «select more than one selectable region» bit is the key restriction). So if the patent stands up, I suppose they'd have the option of just removing that feature.
- geocar 9y agoIndeed they might: The first versions of Moom were released after the patent priority, but before it was published. This is something they should discuss with their attorney.
- adolph 9y agoI wonder if they can engineer around the patent by having the user customize their own regions.
- jkmcf 9y agoSadly, that's Moom's best, differentiating feature.
- brighthero 9y agoWhat's the best way to prevent patent trolls from suing you? Or is it more like hoping to just have luck and not get sued?
- dig1 9y ago1. Have a lot of money to hire best layers to sink bastard. 2. Work for a big corp/government. 3. Live in a country where they don't give a damn about patents.
- jakobegger 9y agoI was about to complain loudly about bullshit patents, but then I took some time to read the actual patent (make sure to look at the images too!), and it turns out that this patent describes a method that is very similar to what Moom does (judging by screenshots). This is not a case of the overly broad patents that we usually complain about, this is a very precise patent.
- empressplay 9y agoAgreed. I read the patent before checking out what Moom was, and I'd say Moom is a pretty good implementation of the invention described in the patent. I think they might be stuck here.
- psyc 9y agoPrecise, and still obvious. So, still a bullshit patent.
- endorphone 9y agoBeing similar doesn't justify it as a patent. A core foundation of patents is that the invention be novel and non-obvious to a practitioner. If countless people independently -- without learning from the claims -- derive exactly the same "invention", it is an invalid patent. Of course then you have to actually get it invalidated, at great time and expense. It is completely a bullshit patent. The patent office got their fees, and then they'll get their fees again to re-evaluate it.
- kefka 9y agoIt's only a bullshit patent if you have pockets deep enough to take them to court over a patent issue. And, the patent holder is considered "Right" until otherwise proved.
- endorphone 9y agoFrom a qualitative perspective it's a bullshit patent, full-stop. But yes, the legal process is prohibitive, but if you demonstrate prior art to the USPTO you can request a re-examination that allows them to save face. If this patent were filed in 1988 it might have a hope of standing. It was remarkably filed in 2008, years after countless grid-based Windows manager had come and gone. It stands no hope, and the EFF will make quick work of this. The USPTO needs to be held liable for this sort of nonsense, or alternately people who file spurious patents need to be penalized. This is legalized extortion. And since this always comes up - someone is going to say "read all the claims...this is novel only in its entirety". The claims of a patent, unless specifically cross-referencing, hold independently.
- amelius 9y agoSoftware patents don't exist in Europe. So they can probably just add some small-print that says "please don't download this if you are outside of Europe". (IANAL)
- geocar 9y agoThey do exist in Europe, and indeed many companies patent things in Europe to take advantage of legislation like Patentbox.
- amelius 9y agoOkay, I looked it up, and strictly speaking you are right, [1]. But, quoting: "The European Patent Convention (EPC), Article 52, paragraph 2, excludes from patentability, in particular 1. discoveries, scientific theories and mathematical methods; 2. aesthetic creations; 3. schemes, rules and methods for performing mental acts, playing games or doing business, and programs for computers; 4. presentations of information." I believe the patent in question falls under 4, 3 and perhaps 2. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_patents_under_the_European_Patent_Convention https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_patents_under_the_Eur...
- neotek 9y agoThat's all well and good, but if you get sued you still have to pay quite a lot of money to a lawyer to prove you're right, and even if you win you're still stuck with the bill.
- Iaaj 9y agoIsn't that the case for literally anything and everything?
- cloverich 9y agoGiven the description of the law -- is that something that happens a lot in Europe? (patent troll's actually suing, and people actually defending). Your comment suggests it does unless I"m mis-reading but I'm curious what that's based on.
- JoelTheSuperior 9y agoI'd be curious to see how this affects other similar apps. I use Magnet and I love it - I'd hate for it to disappear.
- arcbyte 9y agoDaniel Paul Nelson what a douchenozzle
- chmod775 9y agoPlease be aware that "Daniel Paul Nelson" the artist, for which most Google results are, is likely not the same as the Daniel P Nelson who seems to live with his wife in Salt Lake City and applied for the patent.
- dang 9y agoWe detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14335243 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14335243 and marked it off-topic.
- wideem 9y agoare there any open source alternatives to Moom?
- Kluny 9y agoCinch and SizeUp. http://www.irradiatedsoftware.com/cinch/ http://www.irradiatedsoftware.com/cinch/ http://www.irradiatedsoftware.com/sizeup/ http://www.irradiatedsoftware.com/sizeup/ Been using them for a few years now. I'm quite happy. The combination, after you configure it, is superior to the Windows implementation.
- pidg 9y agoThey're not open source
- veritas3241 9y agoI highly recommend Slate (https://github.com/jigish/slate https://github.com/jigish/slate). It doesn't appear to have some of the features of Moom, but it's quite adept and configurable.
- softinio 9y agodoesn't seem to have been touched for 4 years
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- blipmusic 9y agohttps://www.spectacleapp.com https://www.spectacleapp.com but whose to say that won't disappear as well...? Software licenses are starting to feel dangerously close to "patenting the wheel".
- retSava 9y agoThere are many alternatives for Mac suggested here, but I'd like to share an alternative for Win too, Windowgroomer: https://github.com/aarmea/WindowGroomer https://github.com/aarmea/WindowGroomer It's stale but works perfectly on win10, has just what I want from it. Secretly, I'm suggesting it here kind of hoping someone around here likes it as much as I and feels like contributing (since I'm not very good at the Windows stuff). A great contribution would be to be able to use keyboard to set the grid, not just the mouse. That said, I've been using it a long time and it works great.
- codecamper 9y agoso.. as programmers, we should be getting a patent first on any new idea before we begin programming? So much for an MVP. We need tools to simplify the process of writing a good patent. The current system is skewed towards business types that would rather game the system than create an actual thing.
- miguelrochefort 9y agoI once designed an app to later realize that I was infringing dozens of patents I never knew existed before. Go and read a dozen patents, then come back and tell me they're not obvious. Most of them are ridiculously obvious, assuming you have some understanding of their given field/domain.
- ferbivore 9y agoI was always told not to read patents. If it can be proven you're aware of a patent prior to releasing something that infringes it, you get hit with extra penalties. See [1] and [2]. [1]: http://www.dresan.com/blog/2011/04/05/i-dont-read-patents/ http://www.dresan.com/blog/2011/04/05/i-dont-read-patents/ [2]: http://endsoftpatents.org/2010/03/transcript-tridgell-patents/#do-read http://endsoftpatents.org/2010/03/transcript-tridgell-patent...
- PatentTroll 9y agoThat was definitely true around the time your links were written, 2010-2011 or so. A few things have shifted in the application of treble damages and some new avenues for avoiding prolonged patent battles that have prodded many to come around on that way of thinking. Still, some entities choose to be willfully ignorant. But in my opinion, it's better to know what's out there
- mistersquid 9y agoWhat's really galling about this particular patent trolling is that Rob Griffiths, principal of Many Tricks which publishes Moom, is one of the original OS X nerd's nerd. He's done so much for the OS X and the UNIX communities, having run Mac OS X Hints for more than a decade. [0] When pro users were just figuring out best practices for everything from window management to command line AppleScript (osascript) to postfix configuration, Griffiths' tireless and largely selfless (ads were unobtrusive, implemented with a very light touch) support of Mac OS X hints made it the go-to site for how to do all things command line in OS X. It's a shame this patent troll has chosen to shake down so selfless a member of the OS X community. [0] http://macosxhints.com http://macosxhints.com (redirects to) http://hints.macworld.com http://hints.macworld.com EDIT: Grammar: add missing direct object to last sentence of second paragraph.
- novaleaf 9y agookay you like the guy, but unlikable people need sympathies too.
- berlam 9y agoYears ago, when OS X was my preferred platform, I was really impressed from the fast and really good support of "Many Tricks". Always felt like I was supporting one of my colleagues emerging side projects and I felt quite good as he was actual taking customer care serious by trying to solve things in direct communication and not just redirecting to a FAQ or similar. I just want to say thank you, Rob! Keep fighting the trolls.
- wink 9y agoLooks roughly like WinSplit Revolution, which afaik was first released in 2009, but I don't know which features existed back then.
- RayVR 9y agoknowing absolutely nothing about patent law, I'm surprised that tiling window managers are not considered prior art or would at least mean this idea is not novel.
- ferbivore 9y agoRead the patent. I'm not aware of any TWMs implementing the kind of grid interface Moom is using.
- RayVR 9y agoI did read the patent but I don't understand exactly what moom does. If a tiling window manager defines a set of inputs for defining grids and moving/resizing windows on that grid, where is the difference?
- ferbivore 9y agoThe actual patent document, with drawings, is at [1]. It describes the visual, mouse-driven grid UI Moom uses to let you draw out where windows should be placed. As far as I can tell it doesn't mention anything about hotkeys. [1]: http://pdfpiw.uspto.gov/.piw?PageNum=0&docid=08434019&IDKey=70F1BA777FF4&HomeUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fpatft.uspto.gov%2Fnetacgi%2Fnph-Parser%3FSect1%3DPTO1%2526Sect2%3DHITOFF%2526d%3DPALL%2526p%3D1%2526u%3D%25252Fnetahtml%25252FPTO%25252Fsrchnum.htm%2526r%3D1%2526f%3DG%2526l%3D50%2526s1%3D8434019.PN.%2526OS%3DPN%2F8434019%2526RS%3DPN%2F8434019 http://pdfpiw.uspto.gov/.piw?PageNum=0&docid=08434019&IDKey=...
- akio 9y agoWindow Tidy had it as early as 2011. http://lightpillar.com/window-tidy.html http://lightpillar.com/window-tidy.html
- z3t4 9y agothe patent troll likely want little money instead of no money or costs.
- Cole_Jontrane 9y agoIs everyone here a patent attorney?
- dctoedt 9y agoThe most important single thing to read in a patent is the claims, especially the independent (stand-alone) claims. Infringement analysis amounts to attempting to map the claim's list of elements onto the accused method or structure; if the map function returns FALSE, then that particular claim very likely isn't infringed by that particular accused method or structure. (That is: If any claim element isn't present—possibly in the form of an "equivalent"—then the accused method or structure doesn't infringe that particular claim.) Prior-art analysis works backwards: If a claim returns TRUE when mapped onto a piece of prior art—or onto something that would have been "obvious" at the time the invention was made when taking into account all of the relevant prior art [0]—then that claim is probably unpatentable. In this patent, claim 1 seems to be representative. I've broken up the paragraphing and added bracketed lettering. (Usual disclaimer: This shouldn't be relied on as a substitute for legal advice; I'm not acting as anyone's lawyer; etc.) ==QUOTE== 1. A method for positioning a window on a user's display, the method comprising: [A] providing, in a window-based computing environment, an image [i] representing an entire display area of a user's computer screen and [ii] comprising a plurality of selectable regions, each selectable region [x] representing a sub-area within the display area and [y] having a shape and orientation similar to the corresponding sub-area, wherein the selectable regions are arranged in the same way the corresponding sub-areas are arranged in the display area; [B] enabling a user to simultaneously select more than one selectable region from the plurality of selectable regions; and [C] automatically moving a window in the window-based computing environment to a sub-area corresponding to the selected more than one selectable region. ==END QUOTE== [0] Obviousness analysis is really tricky because it necessarily requires hindsight. The test is, in essence: Given everything that was known in the relevant field(s) at the time, would a hypothetical person of "ordinary skill" (in that field or fields) have regarded the claimed subject as obvious? My personal tl;dr for obviousness analysis is this: Suppose that a team of competent-but-not-necessarily-stellar colleagues were shown or told about the claimed invention. If their collective reaction was to raise their eyebrows and murmur, "hmm; that's interesting," then the claimed invention might well have been non-obvious. On the other hand, if their collective reaction was to shrug their shoulders and say, "um, yeah, and?" then the claimed invention might well have been obvious. In the real world, obviousness analysis is supported by "objective evidence" of nonobviousness, if available. For example, commercial success that's shown to be due to the technical merits of the claimed invention (as opposed to being due mainly to, e.g., marketing) can weigh heavily in favor of nonobviousness. Admiration of experts, ditto. (I once heard a story, very likely apocryphal, about a patent examiner who rejected a patent application on grounds of obviousness; the patent attorney overcame the rejection by pointing out that the claimed invention had received the Nobel Prize. Personally I'm skeptical because the timing wouldn't work, but the story illustrates the concept.)
- danschumann 9y agoI thought patents were invalid if they were just "something you can do in the real world... but using a computer". I'm pretty sure grid layouts have been in mathetmatics, printing, etc for hundreds/thousands of years. It's likely a shit patent.
- mark-r 9y agoA bad patent is still a patent, and if it shouldn't have been granted the burden is on you to prove it. With all the costs and risks involved. What galls me most about the patent system is all of the things that are trivially obvious once an enabling technology becomes available, and the first person to apply gets a government sponsored monopoly.
- jostmey 9y agoWhat kind of person spends their days looking through other people's software, asking if their collection of questionable patents applies to someone else's hard work?
- kaonashi 9y agoA person who wants to make money.
- __2__ 9y agoIs this an honest question? Honest answer: That person is someone who makes more money per hour than the person who did the hard work. And they stand to make even more money in the event of a settlement. How can you fix this problem? Take away the financial incentives.
- grkvlt 9y agoThe same kind of person that owns a collection of valid patents, based on many years of unique research and development, looking to see if they apply to someone else's lazy theft of their hard work. Hint: it's really hard to tell the difference!
- Brajeshwar 9y agoAnother Moom Alternative (free) - SpectacleApp, https://www.spectacleapp.com/ https://www.spectacleapp.com/
- eb0la 9y agoLet's talk about prior art about this patent claims. I remember using software from Barco to position application Windows on a videowall that predates that patent at least five years. Maybe getting prior art at hand could be good (just a suggestion)