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As much as you guys love to hate on Uber, do you honestly want to go back to a world without it? Just in case it isn't clear, Uber is just the easy whipping bo

As much as you guys love to hate on Uber, do you honestly want to go back to a world without it? Just in case it isn't clear, Uber is just the easy whipping boy because of bad PR -- the legal hurdles Uber is going through will crush Lyft just as quickly (probably faster because they have a smaller legal team). Taxi unions aren't going to say "oh, but Lyft doesn't have as much sexual harassment in the workplace, we'll let them slide." This is a reactionary kick by a protected industry, but if the legal framework ends up crushing hail-to-ride companies, those laws aren't going anywhere for a long, long time. The change will only happen if it's not-explicitly-illegal and people are able to use the service to see the value; if one of those stops, we're going back to unavailable, dirty, unsafe, cabs with perpetually broken credit card readers.

Apocryphon 10y ago
The market will find a way. Flywheel?
- jedberg 10y ago
  Flywheel definitely improved the UX around getting a cab, but it still relies on an artificially limited supply of cabs. Uber/Lyft's main innovation is creating a way to increase and decrease the supply of drivers when needed.
TeMPOraL 10y ago
> As much as you guys love to hate on Uber, do you honestly want to go back to a world without it? As an European? Yes. Things were evolving fine in Europe; from our POV, Uber isn't doing anything innovative - they're just a personal transportation company (we have those) with a cute app (we have those) that tries to outcompete everyone by unilaterally deciding that laws don't apply to them. > Taxi unions aren't going to say "oh, but Lyft doesn't have as much sexual harassment in the workplace, we'll let them slide." I wish this would stop; I get that sexual harassment is what media loves to write about, but this was not remotely the biggest or most wrong thing Uber has done. Their whole business model is antisocial.
- lukeholder 10y ago
  Business models need to be "social" now?
  - rvense 10y ago
    Yes. Just like individuals should be expected to act in a socially responsible manner, so should corporations.
  - deleted 10y ago
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  - TeMPOraL 10y ago
    Not "social", just "people-friendly", or "not antisocial".
    - Apocryphon 10y ago
      Prosocial also works
      - TeMPOraL 10y ago
        I'll settle for people and companies not being obliged to make the world a better place, as long as they don't actively make it worse.
  - Tomte 10y ago
    Yes, indeed. The German constitution clearly states "Property entails obligations. Its use shall also serve the public good." (https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_gg/englisch_gg.html#p0085 https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_gg/englisch_gg.h...)
    - komali2 10y ago
      I love this, because it obliterates the "but why should I have to do anything for other people?!" argument of my conservatives friends here in the USA. They always dance this weird line between "the deep state run by the rich are destroying this country for their profit" and "people should be allowed to make money however they want, and do whatever they want with that money."
deleted 10y ago
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rm_-rf_slash 10y ago
We can have enjoyable ride-hailing without it coming from a company that treats THE LAW like toilet paper. If Uber's countless poor decisions land it in this hot water, then it got what it deserved. Blaming it on the entrenched taxi interests is a lazy and narrow narrative.
deleted 10y ago
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xigency 10y ago
Forcing drivers to obtain taxi licenses, pass tests, or be screened only affects the price point for the service. Given that Uber is bankrolled by obscene amounts of investment, their price points are artificial anyway. So, to allow them to bypass commonsense laws out of sympathy is evil.
csydas 10y ago
Uber losing out doesn't mean a complete reversion to "the way things was". Look at Austin - Uber left, and new players entered the arena. The rest of the world has already adjusted to Uber's business model by basically just copying it, without the non-sense that comes with Uber. Uber isn't the single pillar carrying the transportation world forward - they forced a change, yes, but inertia will keep such competition going. There is no need for Uber and all the baggage that comes with it. It has been shown clearly that others can and will fill any hole Uber leaves.
mikeash 10y ago
We shouldn't have to choose between evil, incompetent taxi companies and evil, competent Uber. And I don't think we do have to choose. If we bring Uber to heel, we don't have to go back to the old way.
thesimon 10y ago
>unsafe, cabs It's hard to tell if you are being ironic here.
rodionos 10y ago
I use it twice a day for commute and we're planning to sell the second car in the family. Pickup times are 1-2 minutes, no need to heat up the car during winder months. No, I don't want to go back.
rvense 10y ago
Yes, I very much do want to go back to a world without Uber. They're part of a huge step backwards for employee's rights. They might have a good app, but from all the people I know who've used Uber, they use them primarily because they're cheap. They're cheap because their drivers aren't paid well enough and because they evade taxes. Their appropriation of the phrase "sharing economy" is in my opinion spin to avoid the responsibility any employer has towards their employees.
- ng12 10y ago
  I don't understand this -- what's to prevent an Uber driver from just quitting if he's underpaid? Do you also avoid stores that pay their employees minimum wage?
  - rvense 10y ago
    Do Uber drivers even have an expectation to earn a minimum wage? But to answer your question, yes, I do avoid stores and businesses that are known to treat their employees poorly and e.g. block unionization. As for "Uber drivers can just quit", I think that's a very simplistic argument. Uber are pricing competitors out of the market (using venture capital!), turning what used to be a fairly decent job into something that's barely enough to scrape by on. The people likely to driver for Uber likely don't have as many options, and probably fewer by the day as jobs that don't require are lot of skills are increasingly being turned into temporary jobs and platform gigs. I'm from Scandinavia, which has a very high degree of social cohesion and low economic inequality, and I see it very mch as a regression and a danger to society.
    - ng12 10y ago
      > turning what used to be a fairly decent job into something that's barely enough to scrape by on That hasn't been true in the US. In NYC Uber drivers make $30/hr and don't have to work under the existing exploitative Taxi system where they could actually lose money on an unprofitable day. Also, Uber has brought car service to smaller cities (e.g. Mountain View) where there used to be no Taxi system at all (in fact airport taxis would price gouge you for going SFO -> South Bay). Maybe Europe is different but I don't think you can make blanket statements like that.
zitterbewegung 10y ago
I would rather go without it than having it cheat people who are "contractors" for the service . Now that I know how the sausage is made makes me not want it as badly .
maxsilver 10y ago
> As much as you guys love to hate on Uber, do you honestly want to go back to a world without it? No. No one is asking for Uber to go away. I just want Uber to follow the rule of law and operate lawfully, just like most of their competitors. If there are unfair taxi medallion restrictions in cities, remove the unfair restrictions. Uber should never get to just ignore laws they don't like, for the same reason you and I don't get to do so.
Tloewald 10y ago
We won't need to go to a world before Uber since the business model is out there now. The core concept is great (and in fact it already pretty much existed in places with well-regulated taxi industries) and doesn't need a giant market cap or billions of dollars to operate, that's only needed for hubristic plans to reinvent transport that also don't need Uber to happen. It's a bit like Tesla. Tesla has turned electric cars into something cool and edgy, but if it were to go under tomorrow it wouldn't even slow the pace of electric car adoption.
ascendantlogic 10y ago
Uber? yes. Other ride hailing companies that aren't run by sociopathic technolibertarians that think the laws don't apply to them can go ahead and pick up the slack.
unclesaamm 10y ago
> As much as you guys love to hate on Uber, do you honestly want to go back to a world without it? Why is the choice about going back? I want to move forward into a world with driver-owned Ubers (aka platform cooperatives). I like ride hailing apps, I don't like how Uber is a vehicle for VCs to extract rent from drivers.
rayiner 10y ago
What's so bad about taxi unions? The drivers make a decent wage and the profits are kept locally among numerous small businesses. Is it really better to make the system more efficient, just to have to gains shipped off to billionaires in California?
- kofejnik 10y ago
  Your argument can be applied to any industry. So yes, it's better to make the system more efficient so millions of people can enjoy safe and effective transportation
  - TeMPOraL 10y ago
    It can, and it should be. The more I think about it, the more I see economic efficiency as a double-edged sword. Too little of it, and you have bad services and lots of waste. Too much of it, and people involved in delivering goods and services spend most of their lives working and yet can barely get by. As long as it's people who work in businesses, we need to keep in mind that they want to live a happy life too.
    - kofejnik 10y ago
      your view of economic efficiency borders on Marxism-Communism, and I bet you have never actually experienced living in a communist country
      - TeMPOraL 10y ago
        If trying to avoid excessive abuse and exploitation of other people qualifies as bordering on Marxism-Communism these days, then I guess it's time for me to start wearing red...
- blacksmythe 10y ago
  >> have to gains shipped off to billionaires in California? Uber is operating at a loss. Presently the gains are being shipped from billionaires in California.
fauigerzigerk 10y ago
I think it's a false dichotomy to assume that we cannot have a level playing field and respect employment laws without having absurdly onerous taxi regulation. Uber drivers are clearly not contractors by any useful definition. All taxi companies should be regulated the same. We don't want regulatory arbitrage to be the main competitive advantage of new companies just because they call themselves tech companies. Surely, that doesn't mean we have to defend the sort of ridiculous protectionism that taxi companies enjoy in some cities.
mvdwoord 10y ago
>do you honestly want to go back to a world without it? yes. Please. Please give me a world without Uber / AirBNB / Whatever is the hip unicorn of the year. It's all just a bunch of shit.
amclennon 10y ago
> ...if one of those stops, we're going back to unavailable, dirty, unsafe, cabs with perpetually broken credit card readers. I think it's disingenuous to suggest that there's no middleground to between complying with regulations and providing poor service. There's definitely an argument to be made that the laws should be rewritten to be more conducive to competition while maintaining consumer protections, but let's not pretend that Uber isn't a taxi service and doesn't deserve to be treated as such.
- maverick_iceman 10y ago
  What incentive do taxi companies have under existing regulations to make the lives of passengers any better? They have been granted A monopoly by the government and passengers will have to take them however bad they are because no competition is allowed.
  - vidarh 10y ago
    I don't know about where you live, but where I live (London) the black cabs face competition from dozens of minicab companies everywhere, and most of them have apps, and there are aggregatd services. The only thing the black cabs have a monopoly on is picking up people off the street without a booking or from taxi stands; but given that in most cities here a minicab company is a few minutes walk away, and usually having one come to you will take minutes, I use minicabs more often than I use black cabs. That said, the service I get from black taxis is routinely better. As for other incentives: They get dictated improvements and failing to make the required changes will cost them their license.
- kofejnik 10y ago
  but in reality there isn't. In Athens, Greece, a 15 minute ride to the airport in 45 euros, in an old crappy cab reeking of tobacco smoke and driver not speaking English. Average salary there is 1100 euro/month. This racket is immoral and should be broken without any hesitation, no matter how loudly cab drivers complain about lost wages.
  - 10y ago
deegles 10y ago
What I want is a company with a business model like Red Hat working on ride sharing. Open source and free to use, or you can pay them to host it. Cities can choose to set the rates as high as they want and keep the income, or even subsidize it for rides in certain areas (or for vulnerable populations). Once self driving cars are reliable, a city could purchase its own fleet of vehicles and add them to the app. This way everyone benefits, more money stays in local economies, and drivers make more.
burgreblast 10y ago
Why use Uber in Germany? I can call a Taxi on an app. That was the "big" invention by Uber, and now it's commoditized. The idea that anyone can be an uber driver doesn't help me the passenger much, as long as I can get a ride. OK, I get that in the US taxis are notoriously bad and generally older cars (and no Mercedes). But UberX just substitutes beat down American cars for a beat-down Prius, Kia and smaller cars. How great is that win? I don't think the haughty arrogant attitude of Uber is good for any society.
- maverick_iceman 10y ago
  So German laws will make arrogance illegal now?
s_kilk 10y ago
> do you honestly want to go back to a world without it? Yeah, totally. I want a world in which taxi drivers can actually earn a living rather than scraping by with double shifts for Uber, Lyft and every other gig-economy vampire to come out of Silicon Valley. Because, you know, chronic job insecurity and ever-sliding standards of living fucking suck.
- maverick_iceman 10y ago
  You know what sucks? Being black and not able to hail a cab.
will_brown 10y ago
the real question is why are you advocating for some tech company (companies) backed by millions of dollars of VC money be able to pick and choose which laws to break? How about Uber for drug dealers? Or Uber for prostitution? Why stop at illegal taxis/ride sharing? While you are enjoying the rides and Uber the real profits: have you ever stopped to think about drivers who are being fined $1,000's/ even arrested for nothing more than being an Uber driver? Or the fact that Uber turns around and fires these drivers for not effectively evading the law?
- kofejnik 10y ago
  > How about Uber for drug dealers? Or Uber for prostitution? yes and yes, prohibition is idiotic and does not work, so legalize and tax this shit
  - TeMPOraL 10y ago
    Totally, but if legalized then it would not be Uber for drugs/prostitution, but Regular Taxi for drugs/prostitution... :).
- maverick_iceman 10y ago
  Drivers are adults. They can stop driving for Uber any moment that wish. Or do you think that adults don't know whats good for themselves and government needs to tell them what to do?
  - TeMPOraL 10y ago
    Even adults are not omniscient, nor without pressures that come from having to feed and house themselves and their families. All of those constraints are exploited by various businesses in a systemic way. Employment is very often not a fully voluntary trade.
  - will_brown 10y ago
    I think Uber entices people to break the law when drivers would have not otherwise have engaged or even considered engaging in that activity. And no I don't think drivers are always aware and no i don't expect them to do legal research on a city, county and national level to determine whether being an Uber driver is unlawful. As a mater of fact I don't expect any employee/contractor to have the burden of performing legal research if their job duties are lawful because it is unlawful for any employer(Uber) to enter into contracts with employees/contractors (drivers) to perform illegal acts. So in short no I don't drivers know what's best for themselves when they break the law to work for Uber for a few bucks per legal violation, much less the real cost of getting a criminal record and losing their Uber job. And yes I think governments are needed to pass laws that carry penalties, generally I think that's called civilized society, how long do you think you would last in a world without laws.
FullMtlAlcoholc 10y ago
Uber didn't invent ride-hailing apps and they don't offer any meaningful difference from Lyft or Didi Chuxing. They brought this negative focus on themselves by not respecting local laws and ordinances. It's unfortunate, but after Uber takes on the brunt of the backlash, another ride-hailing company will swoop in, respect the laws, and reap the rewards. That's the risk you run when your philosophy is move fast, break stuff, and ignore all the rules.
pnathan 10y ago
I want Uber to operate within and respect the laws as a business policy and practice. While we all, I think, recognize that in many US cities the taxi and transit services were simply terrible, and many things need to be changed, we also need to demand that companies operate lawfully, barring grotesque violations of human rights entailed by the law.
k-mcgrady 10y ago
>> This is a reactionary kick by a protected industry, but if the legal framework ends up crushing hail-to-ride companies, those laws aren't going anywhere for a long, long time. If companies can't provide their service without flouting employment law they shouldn't exist. It might make my life a bit more inconvenient but I'd rather that than a lot of people getting exploited. Employment laws exist for a reason - to protect people.
alkonaut 10y ago
Uber is Taxi. If taxi works as it should there are 100+ taxi companies in a city and good regulation when it comes to insurance, pay - but no medallion systems or similar. This is how it works in a lot of places and there Uber is just one company among others - and I don't see how they are revolutionary. The other taxi companies also have prepay, books and tracks with an app etc.
hysan 10y ago
Hugely depends on where in the world you are talking about. America? Probably not. Japan? Sure. Didn't seem all that useful to me there anyway.
phillc73 10y ago
> As much as you guys love to hate on Uber, do you honestly want to go back to a world without it? Yes. I would be fine with that. I lived in London for 13 years and never used Uber. Black cabs provide an excellent, if somewhat expensive, service. Minicabs, effectively licensed private car carriage, filled any gaps at an excellent price point for pre-booked rides. I now live in a medium sized continental European city with no Uber service. My life will continue just fine without them.
Kurtz79 10y ago
I have a lot more personal data points (anecdotes) with taxis than with Uber, so that's not really a fair comparison. But, some of my recent experiences with taxi have been (both in New York): - Asking at the airport for a Taxi where we could pay with card, since we had no cash. Finding out at the hotel that the driver had it disconnected and refusing to put it on since "it wasn't working". It ended up with him driving me to an ATM to get cash to pay him. - Going from the center to LaGuardia, checking the route on Google Maps it's clear that the driving is taking us for a ride. When confronted he asks us cheekily if we are from around there (no, but we can read a map). Note that both occurrences cannot possibly happen with Uber (since you are given the fee at the start and payment is transparent). It's possible I'll have bad experiences with Uber/Lyft, but no, I wouldn't go back to a world without it, I wish they would be given fair legal status, and made to follow these laws like other services.
user15672 10y ago
> As much as you guys love to hate on Uber, do you honestly want to go back to a world without it? I work in London, so Uber is not really much use to me. I live on the outskirts of London (technically London but a few miles out and TfL cease to exist. It's bordering on rural) and the local cab companies/public transport work just fine for everything I need. I grew up in a not small, but not giant town and Uber is no more useful or cost efficient than the local taxis (public transport os horrible though). So sure. If Uber vanish tomorrow it'll make zero impact on my life beyond not having that particular train crash to watch in the media. In fact, I'd prefer Uber die unless they start being lawful/stop being asshats and stop this crappy "but the rules are in our waaaaay!" attitude.
bigbugbag 10y ago
> As much as you guys love to hate on Uber, do you honestly want to go back to a world without it? For sure, honestly the sooner it is gone the better. I would not mind a similar service existing but done right, not tricking driver into the service through unsustainable subsidy while pushing employee to suicide and denying claim to the family, spying on users to overcharge, going rogue and illegal to avoid law enforcement, the list goes on and on. It can be done in a human and respectful way but uber seem to have other priorities.

Apocryphon 10y ago

The market will find a way. Flywheel?

jedberg 10y ago
Flywheel definitely improved the UX around getting a cab, but it still relies on an artificially limited supply of cabs. Uber/Lyft's main innovation is creating a way to increase and decrease the supply of drivers when needed.

TeMPOraL 10y ago

> As much as you guys love to hate on Uber, do you honestly want to go back to a world without it? As an European? Yes. Things were evolving fine in Europe; from our POV, Uber isn't doing anything innovative - they're just a personal transportation company (we have those) with a cute app (we have those) that tries to outcompete everyone by unilaterally deciding that laws don't apply to them. > Taxi unions aren't going to say "oh, but Lyft doesn't have as much sexual harassment in the workplace, we'll let them slide." I wish this would stop; I get that sexual harassment is what media loves to write about, but this was not remotely the biggest or most wrong thing Uber has done. Their whole business model is antisocial.

lukeholder 10y ago
Business models need to be "social" now?
- rvense 10y ago
  Yes. Just like individuals should be expected to act in a socially responsible manner, so should corporations.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- TeMPOraL 10y ago
  Not "social", just "people-friendly", or "not antisocial".
  - Apocryphon 10y ago
    Prosocial also works
    - TeMPOraL 10y ago
      I'll settle for people and companies not being obliged to make the world a better place, as long as they don't actively make it worse.
- Tomte 10y ago
  Yes, indeed. The German constitution clearly states "Property entails obligations. Its use shall also serve the public good." (https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_gg/englisch_gg.html#p0085 https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_gg/englisch_gg.h...)
  - komali2 10y ago
    I love this, because it obliterates the "but why should I have to do anything for other people?!" argument of my conservatives friends here in the USA. They always dance this weird line between "the deep state run by the rich are destroying this country for their profit" and "people should be allowed to make money however they want, and do whatever they want with that money."

deleted 10y ago

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rm_-rf_slash 10y ago

We can have enjoyable ride-hailing without it coming from a company that treats THE LAW like toilet paper. If Uber's countless poor decisions land it in this hot water, then it got what it deserved. Blaming it on the entrenched taxi interests is a lazy and narrow narrative.

deleted 10y ago

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xigency 10y ago

Forcing drivers to obtain taxi licenses, pass tests, or be screened only affects the price point for the service. Given that Uber is bankrolled by obscene amounts of investment, their price points are artificial anyway. So, to allow them to bypass commonsense laws out of sympathy is evil.

csydas 10y ago

Uber losing out doesn't mean a complete reversion to "the way things was". Look at Austin - Uber left, and new players entered the arena. The rest of the world has already adjusted to Uber's business model by basically just copying it, without the non-sense that comes with Uber. Uber isn't the single pillar carrying the transportation world forward - they forced a change, yes, but inertia will keep such competition going. There is no need for Uber and all the baggage that comes with it. It has been shown clearly that others can and will fill any hole Uber leaves.

mikeash 10y ago

We shouldn't have to choose between evil, incompetent taxi companies and evil, competent Uber. And I don't think we do have to choose. If we bring Uber to heel, we don't have to go back to the old way.

thesimon 10y ago

>unsafe, cabs It's hard to tell if you are being ironic here.

rodionos 10y ago

I use it twice a day for commute and we're planning to sell the second car in the family. Pickup times are 1-2 minutes, no need to heat up the car during winder months. No, I don't want to go back.

rvense 10y ago

Yes, I very much do want to go back to a world without Uber. They're part of a huge step backwards for employee's rights. They might have a good app, but from all the people I know who've used Uber, they use them primarily because they're cheap. They're cheap because their drivers aren't paid well enough and because they evade taxes. Their appropriation of the phrase "sharing economy" is in my opinion spin to avoid the responsibility any employer has towards their employees.

ng12 10y ago
I don't understand this -- what's to prevent an Uber driver from just quitting if he's underpaid? Do you also avoid stores that pay their employees minimum wage?
- rvense 10y ago
  Do Uber drivers even have an expectation to earn a minimum wage? But to answer your question, yes, I do avoid stores and businesses that are known to treat their employees poorly and e.g. block unionization. As for "Uber drivers can just quit", I think that's a very simplistic argument. Uber are pricing competitors out of the market (using venture capital!), turning what used to be a fairly decent job into something that's barely enough to scrape by on. The people likely to driver for Uber likely don't have as many options, and probably fewer by the day as jobs that don't require are lot of skills are increasingly being turned into temporary jobs and platform gigs. I'm from Scandinavia, which has a very high degree of social cohesion and low economic inequality, and I see it very mch as a regression and a danger to society.
  - ng12 10y ago
    > turning what used to be a fairly decent job into something that's barely enough to scrape by on That hasn't been true in the US. In NYC Uber drivers make $30/hr and don't have to work under the existing exploitative Taxi system where they could actually lose money on an unprofitable day. Also, Uber has brought car service to smaller cities (e.g. Mountain View) where there used to be no Taxi system at all (in fact airport taxis would price gouge you for going SFO -> South Bay). Maybe Europe is different but I don't think you can make blanket statements like that.

zitterbewegung 10y ago

I would rather go without it than having it cheat people who are "contractors" for the service . Now that I know how the sausage is made makes me not want it as badly .

maxsilver 10y ago

> As much as you guys love to hate on Uber, do you honestly want to go back to a world without it? No. No one is asking for Uber to go away. I just want Uber to follow the rule of law and operate lawfully, just like most of their competitors. If there are unfair taxi medallion restrictions in cities, remove the unfair restrictions. Uber should never get to just ignore laws they don't like, for the same reason you and I don't get to do so.

Tloewald 10y ago

We won't need to go to a world before Uber since the business model is out there now. The core concept is great (and in fact it already pretty much existed in places with well-regulated taxi industries) and doesn't need a giant market cap or billions of dollars to operate, that's only needed for hubristic plans to reinvent transport that also don't need Uber to happen. It's a bit like Tesla. Tesla has turned electric cars into something cool and edgy, but if it were to go under tomorrow it wouldn't even slow the pace of electric car adoption.

ascendantlogic 10y ago

Uber? yes. Other ride hailing companies that aren't run by sociopathic technolibertarians that think the laws don't apply to them can go ahead and pick up the slack.

unclesaamm 10y ago

> As much as you guys love to hate on Uber, do you honestly want to go back to a world without it? Why is the choice about going back? I want to move forward into a world with driver-owned Ubers (aka platform cooperatives). I like ride hailing apps, I don't like how Uber is a vehicle for VCs to extract rent from drivers.

rayiner 10y ago

What's so bad about taxi unions? The drivers make a decent wage and the profits are kept locally among numerous small businesses. Is it really better to make the system more efficient, just to have to gains shipped off to billionaires in California?

kofejnik 10y ago
Your argument can be applied to any industry. So yes, it's better to make the system more efficient so millions of people can enjoy safe and effective transportation
- TeMPOraL 10y ago
  It can, and it should be. The more I think about it, the more I see economic efficiency as a double-edged sword. Too little of it, and you have bad services and lots of waste. Too much of it, and people involved in delivering goods and services spend most of their lives working and yet can barely get by. As long as it's people who work in businesses, we need to keep in mind that they want to live a happy life too.
  - kofejnik 10y ago
    your view of economic efficiency borders on Marxism-Communism, and I bet you have never actually experienced living in a communist country
    - TeMPOraL 10y ago
      If trying to avoid excessive abuse and exploitation of other people qualifies as bordering on Marxism-Communism these days, then I guess it's time for me to start wearing red...
blacksmythe 10y ago
>> have to gains shipped off to billionaires in California? Uber is operating at a loss. Presently the gains are being shipped from billionaires in California.

fauigerzigerk 10y ago

I think it's a false dichotomy to assume that we cannot have a level playing field and respect employment laws without having absurdly onerous taxi regulation. Uber drivers are clearly not contractors by any useful definition. All taxi companies should be regulated the same. We don't want regulatory arbitrage to be the main competitive advantage of new companies just because they call themselves tech companies. Surely, that doesn't mean we have to defend the sort of ridiculous protectionism that taxi companies enjoy in some cities.

mvdwoord 10y ago

>do you honestly want to go back to a world without it? yes. Please. Please give me a world without Uber / AirBNB / Whatever is the hip unicorn of the year. It's all just a bunch of shit.

amclennon 10y ago

> ...if one of those stops, we're going back to unavailable, dirty, unsafe, cabs with perpetually broken credit card readers. I think it's disingenuous to suggest that there's no middleground to between complying with regulations and providing poor service. There's definitely an argument to be made that the laws should be rewritten to be more conducive to competition while maintaining consumer protections, but let's not pretend that Uber isn't a taxi service and doesn't deserve to be treated as such.

maverick_iceman 10y ago
What incentive do taxi companies have under existing regulations to make the lives of passengers any better? They have been granted A monopoly by the government and passengers will have to take them however bad they are because no competition is allowed.
- vidarh 10y ago
  I don't know about where you live, but where I live (London) the black cabs face competition from dozens of minicab companies everywhere, and most of them have apps, and there are aggregatd services. The only thing the black cabs have a monopoly on is picking up people off the street without a booking or from taxi stands; but given that in most cities here a minicab company is a few minutes walk away, and usually having one come to you will take minutes, I use minicabs more often than I use black cabs. That said, the service I get from black taxis is routinely better. As for other incentives: They get dictated improvements and failing to make the required changes will cost them their license.
kofejnik 10y ago
but in reality there isn't. In Athens, Greece, a 15 minute ride to the airport in 45 euros, in an old crappy cab reeking of tobacco smoke and driver not speaking English. Average salary there is 1100 euro/month. This racket is immoral and should be broken without any hesitation, no matter how loudly cab drivers complain about lost wages.
- 10y ago

deegles 10y ago

What I want is a company with a business model like Red Hat working on ride sharing. Open source and free to use, or you can pay them to host it. Cities can choose to set the rates as high as they want and keep the income, or even subsidize it for rides in certain areas (or for vulnerable populations). Once self driving cars are reliable, a city could purchase its own fleet of vehicles and add them to the app. This way everyone benefits, more money stays in local economies, and drivers make more.

burgreblast 10y ago

Why use Uber in Germany? I can call a Taxi on an app. That was the "big" invention by Uber, and now it's commoditized. The idea that anyone can be an uber driver doesn't help me the passenger much, as long as I can get a ride. OK, I get that in the US taxis are notoriously bad and generally older cars (and no Mercedes). But UberX just substitutes beat down American cars for a beat-down Prius, Kia and smaller cars. How great is that win? I don't think the haughty arrogant attitude of Uber is good for any society.

maverick_iceman 10y ago
So German laws will make arrogance illegal now?

s_kilk 10y ago

> do you honestly want to go back to a world without it? Yeah, totally. I want a world in which taxi drivers can actually earn a living rather than scraping by with double shifts for Uber, Lyft and every other gig-economy vampire to come out of Silicon Valley. Because, you know, chronic job insecurity and ever-sliding standards of living fucking suck.

maverick_iceman 10y ago
You know what sucks? Being black and not able to hail a cab.

will_brown 10y ago

the real question is why are you advocating for some tech company (companies) backed by millions of dollars of VC money be able to pick and choose which laws to break? How about Uber for drug dealers? Or Uber for prostitution? Why stop at illegal taxis/ride sharing? While you are enjoying the rides and Uber the real profits: have you ever stopped to think about drivers who are being fined $1,000's/ even arrested for nothing more than being an Uber driver? Or the fact that Uber turns around and fires these drivers for not effectively evading the law?

kofejnik 10y ago
> How about Uber for drug dealers? Or Uber for prostitution? yes and yes, prohibition is idiotic and does not work, so legalize and tax this shit
- TeMPOraL 10y ago
  Totally, but if legalized then it would not be Uber for drugs/prostitution, but Regular Taxi for drugs/prostitution... :).
maverick_iceman 10y ago
Drivers are adults. They can stop driving for Uber any moment that wish. Or do you think that adults don't know whats good for themselves and government needs to tell them what to do?
- TeMPOraL 10y ago
  Even adults are not omniscient, nor without pressures that come from having to feed and house themselves and their families. All of those constraints are exploited by various businesses in a systemic way. Employment is very often not a fully voluntary trade.
- will_brown 10y ago
  I think Uber entices people to break the law when drivers would have not otherwise have engaged or even considered engaging in that activity. And no I don't think drivers are always aware and no i don't expect them to do legal research on a city, county and national level to determine whether being an Uber driver is unlawful. As a mater of fact I don't expect any employee/contractor to have the burden of performing legal research if their job duties are lawful because it is unlawful for any employer(Uber) to enter into contracts with employees/contractors (drivers) to perform illegal acts. So in short no I don't drivers know what's best for themselves when they break the law to work for Uber for a few bucks per legal violation, much less the real cost of getting a criminal record and losing their Uber job. And yes I think governments are needed to pass laws that carry penalties, generally I think that's called civilized society, how long do you think you would last in a world without laws.

FullMtlAlcoholc 10y ago

Uber didn't invent ride-hailing apps and they don't offer any meaningful difference from Lyft or Didi Chuxing. They brought this negative focus on themselves by not respecting local laws and ordinances. It's unfortunate, but after Uber takes on the brunt of the backlash, another ride-hailing company will swoop in, respect the laws, and reap the rewards. That's the risk you run when your philosophy is move fast, break stuff, and ignore all the rules.

pnathan 10y ago

I want Uber to operate within and respect the laws as a business policy and practice. While we all, I think, recognize that in many US cities the taxi and transit services were simply terrible, and many things need to be changed, we also need to demand that companies operate lawfully, barring grotesque violations of human rights entailed by the law.

k-mcgrady 10y ago

>> This is a reactionary kick by a protected industry, but if the legal framework ends up crushing hail-to-ride companies, those laws aren't going anywhere for a long, long time. If companies can't provide their service without flouting employment law they shouldn't exist. It might make my life a bit more inconvenient but I'd rather that than a lot of people getting exploited. Employment laws exist for a reason - to protect people.

alkonaut 10y ago

Uber is Taxi. If taxi works as it should there are 100+ taxi companies in a city and good regulation when it comes to insurance, pay - but no medallion systems or similar. This is how it works in a lot of places and there Uber is just one company among others - and I don't see how they are revolutionary. The other taxi companies also have prepay, books and tracks with an app etc.

hysan 10y ago

Hugely depends on where in the world you are talking about. America? Probably not. Japan? Sure. Didn't seem all that useful to me there anyway.

phillc73 10y ago

> As much as you guys love to hate on Uber, do you honestly want to go back to a world without it? Yes. I would be fine with that. I lived in London for 13 years and never used Uber. Black cabs provide an excellent, if somewhat expensive, service. Minicabs, effectively licensed private car carriage, filled any gaps at an excellent price point for pre-booked rides. I now live in a medium sized continental European city with no Uber service. My life will continue just fine without them.

Kurtz79 10y ago

I have a lot more personal data points (anecdotes) with taxis than with Uber, so that's not really a fair comparison. But, some of my recent experiences with taxi have been (both in New York): - Asking at the airport for a Taxi where we could pay with card, since we had no cash. Finding out at the hotel that the driver had it disconnected and refusing to put it on since "it wasn't working". It ended up with him driving me to an ATM to get cash to pay him. - Going from the center to LaGuardia, checking the route on Google Maps it's clear that the driving is taking us for a ride. When confronted he asks us cheekily if we are from around there (no, but we can read a map). Note that both occurrences cannot possibly happen with Uber (since you are given the fee at the start and payment is transparent). It's possible I'll have bad experiences with Uber/Lyft, but no, I wouldn't go back to a world without it, I wish they would be given fair legal status, and made to follow these laws like other services.

user15672 10y ago

> As much as you guys love to hate on Uber, do you honestly want to go back to a world without it? I work in London, so Uber is not really much use to me. I live on the outskirts of London (technically London but a few miles out and TfL cease to exist. It's bordering on rural) and the local cab companies/public transport work just fine for everything I need. I grew up in a not small, but not giant town and Uber is no more useful or cost efficient than the local taxis (public transport os horrible though). So sure. If Uber vanish tomorrow it'll make zero impact on my life beyond not having that particular train crash to watch in the media. In fact, I'd prefer Uber die unless they start being lawful/stop being asshats and stop this crappy "but the rules are in our waaaaay!" attitude.

bigbugbag 10y ago

> As much as you guys love to hate on Uber, do you honestly want to go back to a world without it? For sure, honestly the sooner it is gone the better. I would not mind a similar service existing but done right, not tricking driver into the service through unsustainable subsidy while pushing employee to suicide and denying claim to the family, spying on users to overcharge, going rogue and illegal to avoid law enforcement, the list goes on and on. It can be done in a human and respectful way but uber seem to have other priorities.