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They're now demoing the Surface Laptop. Thinner than a MacBook Air. Faster than a MacBook Pro. Longer battery life than either. The downside? "Windows 10 S", w
by dangrossman 10y ago
They're now demoing the Surface Laptop. Thinner than a MacBook Air. Faster than a MacBook Pro. Longer battery life than either.
The downside? "Windows 10 S", which only runs apps from the Windows Store. The upside over Windows RT from the Windows 8 era? You can port Win32 apps to the Store today, don't think you could back then.
Edit: You can upgrade Windows 10 S to ordinary Windows 10 Pro for $50. Laptops that run Windows S from other manufacturers will start at $189.
- kyriakos 10y agoI am not sure if they still have that feature but when first info about Windows S was leaked it said that you can "upgrade" to full Windows with an extra fee.
- pawadu 10y agoGiven the target market (schools) I think not being able to install downloaded software is only a good thing. Also, did you see the performance demo? 10s was significantly faster than 10 Pro. Not sure about the $999 for the cheapest model however. Does it include an Office 365 subscription?
- rocky1138 10y ago> Given the target market (schools) I think not being able to install downloaded software is only a good thing. Except that giving kids unfettered access to their computers allows them to flourish. See: BBC Micro, Raspberry Pi, Apple ][, the list goes on.
- tashoecraft 10y agoExcept that having each kid able to brick their computer leads to significant problems for IT in debugging everyone's computer. As well as letting them move away from educational material extremely easily. I agree that great things can happen when kids can truly explore their computer and take away the 'magic', but just handing all kids a laptop and having them go wild is not the way to do it. I don't what is, to be fair.
- marcus_holmes 10y agoHanding them a laptop and having them go wild is exactly the way to do it. If they brick it, they have to work out how to fix it. As one of the kids who was lucky enough to get a BBC Micro, I had zero support. No-one else in my family even knew how to turn it on. No teacher at my school could support me because none of them knew how it worked either. If I broke it, I had to fix it. And no Stack Overflow, so no code to copy-paste. I had to go back to first principles every time and work out what went wrong and how I could make it go right. Best education you can give anyone.
- valuearb 10y agoThis would have been great for you and me, but 95% of students won't even try. My kids barely know how the TV works, and have zero interest in learning how computers work, despite my efforts.
- dkhenry 10y agoyour kids know how the TV works better then you do. If you don't realize this you're not paying attention. Just because they don't care to write web apps doesn't mean they don't know what they are doing.
- lccarrasco 10y agoI'm sorry can you expand on that? I don't know how could average kids understand AC/DC Power, Signal transmission, different display types, etc better than average adults, especially those interested in technology, maybe I'm missing something from your comment?
- dkhenry 10y agoI can, see you took my statement of "works" to mean they could explain to you why the Higgs field allows particles to have mass and then extrapolate that up to explain the existence of a TV. I simply meant they know how to use it for its desired purpose, better then most adults do.
- cwyers 10y agoIt allows some of them to flourish. The rest of them just wreck the computer.
- dkhenry 10y agoRight its important to protect them from anything bad that might happen to them.
- w1ntermute 10y agoA minute fraction of kids will use the ability to install downloaded software to flourish. The vast majority of children will just download games, malware, and porn. Society should be more honest with itself about the simple reality that the vast majority of children are not and will not ever be special.
- humanrebar 10y ago> A minute fraction of kids will use the ability to install downloaded software to flourish. ...and a minute fraction will play on the football field or perform in the school theater.
- drzaiusapelord 10y agoand that's why we don't assign ballet shoes and football pads to every single student and instead have try-outs.
- dhimes 10y agoBut some schools do mandate some form of athletic participation.
- dragonwriter 10y ago> The vast majority of children will just download games, malware, and porn. They'll just use the browser for porn, no need to install third-party software.
- toddwprice 10y agoFor the vast majority of kids these machines are replacing textbooks, and aren't supposed to be tools for learning computer science. That said, you can also learn programming with nothing more than a browser.
- captainmuon 10y agoMaybe controversial, but I first got internet access in 1999 as a 15-year old. And yes, that meant games, malware, and porn. But I did flourish, not despite all that, but also because of all that. Games are now a rich part of our culture. They can tell great stories, and are not "better" or "worse" then a book per se. If you enjoy them in moderation, and go outside enough, games are a great thing. And LAN parties were a great pastime. Malware, hacking tools, warez were one gateway for me into serious programming. I downloaded Visual Basic or Visual Studio and proceeded to write a trojan, to make friends' CD tray open and close on LAN parties. And porn? Grown ups and parents don't like to hear it, but as a teen I of course enjoyed that there was porn on the internet. It didn't hurt me, and I've had healthy, normal relationships in my life.
- EpicEng 10y agosome kids, and certainly not the majority.
- zitterbewegung 10y agoMicrosoft developed a solution that would allow you to program a BBC microbit without downloading software . See https://www.touchdevelop.com/microbit https://www.touchdevelop.com/microbit
- jtnews 10y agoAt $189 for the computer they can afford to have a computer that is managed and always works and a bbc micro or raspberry pi for the student to hack on and tear up.
- ksk 10y agoWhat makes unfettered access a necessary condition? Seems like kids flourish in all sorts of environments.
- devopsproject 10y ago> Given the target market (schools) The target market is students, not schools. They want kids to get a windows computer instead of a mac before they head off to college
- 72deluxe 10y agoI wonder why 10S is faster than Pro? It can't be doing anything significantly different - perhaps some .NET runtime startup cache or bypassing many of the Win32 APIs regarding RPC? I am genuinely curious - ideas?
- my123 10y agoIt's more that OEMs(and the user) can't do shit on them. (and also not having to sync classic app profiles with AD)
- partiallypro 10y agoYou can upgrade to Windows Pro, if you need it, per Panay. Given the initial demo target though, it makes sense to lock it down to Windows S, where it's all containerized.
- emptythought 10y agoThis will be cracked within days, honestly
- maranke 10y agoIt's just a different version of Windows... no need for a crack. Just change the serial key to the kms key of Pro [0] and install kmspico. [0] https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/jj612867(v=ws.11).aspx https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/jj612867(v=ws.11...
- my123 10y agoOh, it already was.
- alyx 10y agoYou can upgrade up from 10S to 10Pro. Panos mentioned that at the end. It's a full fledged laptop.
- millstone 10y agoErr, the MacBook Pro itself is thinner than a MacBook Air.
- dangrossman 10y agoThe Surface Laptop is thinner than both.
- millstone 10y agoThat's remarkable. How did they get the USB-A port in there? The MacBook Pro body is thinner than the type A receptacle. Edit: Looking at this picture https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/surfacelap-2-980x551.jpg https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/surfa... and there's even substantial space around the type A receptacle. I honestly don't understand how it can be thinner than the MBP. I look forwards to seeing one in person.
- dangrossman 10y agoA USB Type-A plug is only 0.177" thick; the opening to accommodate it can be as small as about 0.2". The smaller MBP is 0.59" thick. The Surface Laptop is 0.57" at the thickest point (0.39" at the thinnest). Either one can easily accommodate any USB port. If you look at a Macbook Pro sitting on a table, you'll see there's a considerable gap between the table and the side of the computer. That's because the MBP is thicker in the middle than at the sides, which makes it appear thinner than it is.
- iamstephenliu 10y agoApple has a bottom bulge on their notebooks whereas Microsoft doesn't: http://www.pcmag.com/media/images/427048-apple-macbook-air-13-inch-2014-ports.jpg?thumb=y http://www.pcmag.com/media/images/427048-apple-macbook-air-1...
- millstone 10y agoThanks, I think that explains it. That bulge provides space for ventilation and makes it easier to lift.
- dstaley 10y agoIt's marginally faster than the dual-core 13in MacBook Pro on account of it being a 7th generation chip. They're still using U series chips, so it won't compete with the true quad-core HQ chips in the 15in MacBook Pro.
- masklinn 10y ago> They're still using U series chips Note that in U-series now covers both 15W and 28W chips, so that leaves a fair amount of room. Considering the iGP (620 and 640) they're using 15W parts, so it's comparable to an nTB 13".
- cdnsteve 10y agoCan you put Electron apps in Windows store so they could run on Windows 10 S?
- mastax 10y agoWell yes. Electron apps are still win32 apps underneath. There's also a 'native' HTML+JS stack for UWP/Win10.
- TheCoreh 10y agoThe Windows Store already supports HTML/JS-based apps, but not using electron. (It uses Microsoft Edge's engine IIRC)
- tdicola 10y agoLet's be honest though, no one is going through the trouble to port their app to Windows 10 only HTML and JS. I don't think MS has even talked about that stack at their recent developer conferences.
- WorldMaker 10y agoIt's not a "sexy" stack to talk about, but I don't think it is going anywhere. There are quite a few Windows Store applications built on it, including several first party applications from Microsoft themselves. It's a quiet workhorse stack that does the job and gets out of the way. So quiet I don't think people often realize when an app is built on it.
- my123 10y agoThe Store app is built on it.
- thebspatrol 10y ago>isn't sexy But why not? The singular issue with electron is how fucking huge the simplest of apps have to be. I see desktop HTML/JS as a RUNTIME being a very near-future standard. I'm sure electron has thought about it. It couldn't possibly be any bigger of a hassle than the java runtime.
- smacktoward 10y agoI'm kind of gobsmacked at that something like Windows 10 S exists. It's like Microsoft doesn't understand that the absolutely enormous quantity of Win32 apps in use is the moat that protects their Windows business from serious competition. Millions and millions of regular people just assume that it's not really safe for their next computer to be a Mac or a Chromebook or what have you, because they're afraid of the risk of losing access to some niche application they depend on. So they keep on buying Windows machines, not so much from anything about Windows as from the vague feeling that computers that don't run Windows are cut off from the mainstream in some important way they don't fully understand. And Microsoft is willing -- eager! -- to drain their moat and move to a world where they're just one in a sea of fully interchangeable app stores. It's baffling.
- valuearb 10y agoHow would you feel if you were a Windows pc maker right now? MSFT commoditized your business and sucked all the profits out of your eco-system until your net margins were 2%, forcing you to cut R&D, Design, etc, and compete in a brutal price war without much hope of unique differentiating features or value. Now MSFT is directly competing with you by so lavishly spending on design that they are years away from making money on their Surface line.
- belltaco 10y ago>they are years away from making money on their Surface line Source? AFAIK they made over $10 billion in revenue on Surface.
- microtherion 10y agoOutside of the startup world, "making money" generally is understood to mean PROFITS not "revenue".
- belltaco 10y agoSure, so do you or the GP have any profit numbers or even analysis to back up the claim "they're years from making any money on the Surface line" ?
- rsynnott 10y ago> Faster than a MacBook Pro What's their basis for that? I'd have thought at the very best it'd be about the same speed as a 13" (assuming you're not doing anything that uses much RAM; the 4GB would really cripple it there). I'll be interested to see what CPU it has, exactly, but I'd be surprised if it has the HD540/640 graphics. EDIT: Specs here: https://i.imgur.com/Kc1fQ52.png https://i.imgur.com/Kc1fQ52.png The expensive ones use an Iris 640, so are the Kaby Lake incarnation of the chips used in the non-TB 13" Macbook Pros (the touchbar ones use the higher wattage chips with Iris 545). The cheaper ones use HD 620. So, the more expensive models might be comparable to the non-touchbar Macbook Pro; it's unlikely that the cheaper ones will be.
- dangrossman 10y agoUp to a 7th-generation Core i7 with Iris Plus Graphics 640. https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-laptop/tech-specs https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-lapt...
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- mtgx 10y agoI wonder if the core i5 is actually a Core i5 U-edition or an Y-edition. Didn't Intel say they would start calling Core M3 and Core M5 Core i3 and Core i5? (pre-Kaby Lake).
- Tanegashima 10y ago15W TDP
- Tanegashima 10y agoThe 7th gen Core i3/i5/i7 have exactly the same performance of the 6th gen. Also the MBP Touch Bar has a TDP that is much higher than the Surface Laptop, only the low end MBP has the same TDP of all the SL. So, no, the Microsoft product is MUCH SLOWER.
- avn2109 10y agoIf this thing could be persuaded to run Linux out of the box with no driver problems, it could be a Macbook killer.
- fosco 10y agothis would be my dream laptop if it ran linux out of the box. I really wish a linux laptop with this type of design was put out for an affordable price, I really think its a major opportunity for a large business market there. I think there is a lot of room for improvement on the "librem' laptops...
- haswell 10y agoThe Dell XPS 13 mostly fits the bill in terms of design. The Linux support is excellent.
- exclusiv 10y agoI second that. Love my XPS developer edition.
- eikenberry 10y agoThey look great except for the battery, it sucks.
- 72deluxe 10y agoIs that Linux' fault though instead of the Dell itself? I mean, Mac OS has app nap and I noticed the difference on the same hardware after OSX 10.whatever introduced it (I got an hour extra battery life!). When I reboot the same hardware into Windows, I get worse battery life than under Mac OS, obviously doing different things and an entirely different architecture (RPC, COM calls etc.) but I know it's not the hardware at fault. Is Linux architecture at fault for the Dell? Just curious. I wonder if there is significantly different battery life for the same machine running different OS (eg. Windows vs Linux).
- zulrah 10y agoIf this laptop can run Linux I'm buying it
- Dylan16807 10y ago> You can upgrade Windows 10 S to ordinary Windows 10 Pro for $50. While the Home to Pro upgrade costs double that? Strange.
- FireBeyond 10y agoOr for free for all of 2017.
- Hippocrates1 10y agoI believe you can upgrade to Windows 10 Pro for free until the end of the year (Dec 31st 2017)
- aioprisan 10y agoUm, I'm not sure how a dual core CPU can be faster than the 15" MacBook Pro 4 core CPU (even if the former is Kaby Lake)
- phonon 10y ago15" vs. 13". The 13" MacBook Pros are also dual core.
- gnicholas 10y agoDoes upgrading to ordinary Windows 10 impact the battery life? The touted specs are much better than Mac laptops, but those run a more fully-featured OS.
- tcoff91 10y agoProbably not until you start installing non-store applications, at which case they can no longer make as strong of guarantees.
- paublyrne 10y agoWhy would being in the store be the differentiator. The biggest battery killer on my laptop is Slack. And that's available through the App Store.
- tatoalo 10y agoWell Windows 10 S can be compared to Chrome OS, obviously they both are less battery hungry, upgrading to a "full" Windows 10 version could impact battery life since the HW and the OS have been built as a black box product. (But we'll know for sure once it's officially released).
- SoapSeller 10y agoThe Windows Store page[0] state that "Prefer to run non-Store apps? Easily switch to Windows 10 Pro for free until Dec 31, 2017". [0] https://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/pdp/productID.5102691100?VID=5105347700 https://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/pdp/product...
- canadaj 10y agoWhy don't they just ship it with W10 Pro already installed? Are there hardware issues, or do they hope a percentage of the population will pay for the upgrade in 2018?
- polyomino 10y agoThey don't want you to upgrade. They can make more from you over time by locking you into the store.
- Maarten88 10y agoThat is the negative explanation. I think they want to compete on safety and simplicity against Chromebook. Store apps will not make the laptop slow, they won't have viruses, they will ask the user for permissions, can be uninstalled safely, they will scale well on hi-res screens, etc. This type of safety is, imo, the most compelling feature of chromebook, and one that Windows Pro doesn't offer.
- int_19h 10y agoI would expect this to be a way to pressure software providers to publish to the store. With opt-in model, even if it's free, you can assume that there will be a sizeable chunk of the market that will not opt-in to upgrade to Pro.
- sinaa 10y agoThis in my opinion is the exact reason. Either they get $50 from users and let them go buy/install off-market, or make the money in the long run from paid app developers who are pressured now to put their applications on the store.
- wklauss 10y agoNot the only downside. Machine looks great but that fabric material in the keyboard looks like it will be easily stained with sweat (a common problem with surface pro keyboards). No USB-C seems like a big missed opportunity as well.
- BinaryIdiot 10y ago> a common problem with surface pro keyboards Hmm, I thought the fabric was a nice touch. I've had my surface pro for a few years now and have never even come close to staining the keyboard. I wonder how common this issue really is.
- taternuts 10y agoIt probably depends on the person and how much they sweat; I'd imagine I sweat more than the average person and I'd be nervous about staining this.
- artursapek 10y agoDon't get too nervous - it will just make you sweat more
- wklauss 10y agoAnd, more important, how much they type. I'd say that for a machine aimed at teenagers this might not be a good idea. Time will tell.
- 72deluxe 10y agoAs a teenager I had a sweaty spotty face and armpits and stank, had a chronic hairdo, poor social skills etc. but I do not remember my hands being sweaty. Were yours? Thankfully I am past all that now, apart form the chronic hairdo, the spotty face, poor personal hygiene, awful social skills....... etc. etc....
- 10y ago
- ralfd 10y agoIf Apple would have released an OS version which you can unlock for $50 there would have been an internet shitstorm decrying them.