31 ms·

Introducing Surface Laptop

• deleted 9y ago
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• MrZipf 9y ago
  Clickbait. No story until unveiling event.
  • dade_ 9y ago
    The live streaming video is at the link.
    • cJ0th 9y ago
      Yeah, seems so. However, real press conferences and satirical ones are so similar these days that I can't really tell which one I am watching right now. ;)
    • anotheryou 9y ago
      ain't got no time for that blah: "let the creativity flow, push that energy in to the gpu" No thanks :)
• deleted 9y ago
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• deelowe 9y ago
  I wonder if tying this to the windows store is a good move. The reception thus far hasn't been extremely encouraging.
  • sddfd 9y ago
    I think the windows store just did not fit the usage patterns: People were used to download stuff right off the net, or use platforms like Valve's Steam. On a chromebook-style laptop, expectations might be different. I personally don't like the walled-garden aspect of app-stores, but I like that there is someone who can effectively respond if malware is reported. Sometimes malware is even proactively removed. For non-power-users this is definitely an advantage. I hope in a few years I can just tell my parent to only install software from the app store, and they will be fine. Additionally, they don't have to do anything to stay up-to-date. Even for power users there is a (theoretical) advantage, which is explicit dependency management. Once you know that all your software is distributed through one channel, libraries and versions can effectively be shared. This is what happens in the Free Software version of app stores: All major distros have them, and without them dependency management would be impossible. So what is the potential gain here? In some version of the future, we might hope that apps don't include hard-copy versions of the libraries they are using, but just tell the app-store which versions they like to use. Security updates can then be pushed by the app-store vendor vs the app vendor.
    • 52-6F-62 9y ago
      > For non-power-users this is definitely an advantage. I hope in a few years I can just tell my parent to only install software from the app store, and they are fine. Additionally, they don't have to do anything to stay up-to-date. I think this is often so easily overlooked for the technologically inclined. ------ It's also not a situation that will likely dissipate. For instance, if in 100 years we're all (I dream) boarding starships, do the engineers really expect the average passenger or crew to understand the intricate workings of the entire vessel? Is this true for airplanes now? Computers are essentially a vehicle for knowledge. If it's not where one is at one moment, it is where one can arrive. Not everyone who drives a car is an automotive engineer, kinetics or physics expert, or even a mechanic. Most people just want or need to get in and drive. Demanding more of somebody who's true goal is to become an expert in a subject that doesn't involve technical engineering is frankly just stupid. This is one of the things I liked about Steve Jobs, in that he believed this. Of course, that developed into the walled-garden approach but I think that's something else altogether. It's far more beneficial for the world to have easy access to knowledge than to wish everybody saw computers and other technology the way people like us who spend time on tech forums do. TL;DR - I agree! But I also think there's much more to be said about that.
    • digi_owl 9y ago
      If the store had launched with vetted Win32 programs from day 1 it may have gained some traction. But right now all i can see in there are UWP "apps", and those are usually very limited in capabilities vs their Win32 equivalent. For example, if i want to use a UWP file manager, i have to go through the Win32 file picker to allow the UWP file manager to access anything but the sub-folders of my user's home folder.
    • intoverflow2 9y ago
      >I think the windows store just did not fit the usage patterns: People were used to download stuff right off the net, or use platforms like Valve's Steam. I don't think I'll ever understand the weird logic of most Windows users where DRM Online Store A is the best thing ever and a selling point of the platform and DRM Online Store B is an abomination that should never exist.
  • pawadu 9y ago
    Maybe not a fun decision but I think it is needed. Consider this not very uncommon scenario: 1. You just bought a laptop, time to install some software 2. Open Edge, search for "spotify", "vlc" maybe even "office". 3. Congratulation, you now have a bing search full of adware and possibly malware. For average Joe it is impossible to not get infected at this stage.
    • nmeofthestate 9y ago
      In my experience this is absolutely true and it blows my mind about Bing. Ads for malware linked with commonly searched-for apps. It's a disgrace.
    • MichaelGG 9y ago
      For quite a white the Store was similar, with fake paid apps. Search for Netflix and get many $10 apps that did nothing or wrapped a handful of video files. Netflix had to contact MS several times to get them to permanently remove it. Disney, HBO, and others all had the same issue. Even right now, a search for Game of Thrones has the first result of a $2.99 app that promises the first season. Published by "ViWi Corp" that has broken HTTP links _in the store_ (that is the privacy policy etc don't link). Same publisher has tons of other crap apps. The Windows Store is a joke.
  • steego 9y ago
    You raise a good question. I own a Chromebook precisely because it's limited in the software it can run. Other people own it because it's simple to own and use. Restricting to the Windows Store is a good move for security, but I'm not sure the different groups of customers will take away the same message. Some people will see it as a move to water it down or take away features while others will see it as a positive step toward improved security. I'm not envious of the tightrope Microsoft has to walk to set the right expectations from their customers. If they're smart, they're going to make simplicity and enhanced security the key features. If they're not so smart, they'll be emphasizing the "one windows" message they were pushing a few years back. Then again, I've been wrong before.
    • ManFromUranus 9y ago
      I agree with your take, many will not see improved security as a benefit but will instead resent the limited functionality. This is nothing more than a rebranded Windows RT which already failed in the market with the Surface RT. IMO this laptop will also fail, regardless of whatever hardware they pair it with
      • WorldMaker 9y ago
        I have friends that very much love their Windows RT devices as quick, secure browser-first tablets (and were disappointed by a lack of an upgrade to Windows 10). Windows S has the benefit that you can upgrade to "real" Windows 10 Pro if you decide you are tired of the limited functionality.
        • ManFromUranus 9y ago
          Oh that's pretty interesting, I didn't know that. So I guess it kind of comes with real windows after all (in a roundabout way)
          • WorldMaker 9y ago
            It's definitely interesting. Where everyone expected a new ARM SKU, Microsoft delivered a new x86 SKU, with an easy upgrade path. Through the lens of Windows 10 S as an "educational" SKU, it's particularly interesting in that idea that you could start the device locked down with S and eventually (plus $50 one time charge) "graduate" the device to "real" Windows 10 as the people themselves age into device ownership or out of locked down education environments or the devices get repurposed for different parts of a learning environment, etc. (This seems to be a clear case where Microsoft is trying to separate itself from the iOS/Chromebook pack. For now you can't graduate and turn an iOS device into a macOS device. With a lot of work you might be able to graduate a Chromebook to Linux or Windows, but certainly not the ease of a $50 purchase from the Windows Store, or a free button click with an existing education site license for Windows 10 Pro.) (Meanwhile, some of us are still hoping for that next ARM SKU, too.)
  • snarfy 9y ago
    It looks like $49.99 unties it.
    • oceanswave 9y ago
      Is this the first instance of an in-OS purchase we've seen, or have there been others?
      • WesleyLivesay 9y ago
        Its just a license for the Pro version of Win10 that it upgrades itself to.
      • callalex 9y ago
        There was that time that Apple charged a few bucks to enable 802.11n on MacBooks after the standard was ratified supposedly for accounting reasons. https://arstechnica.com/apple/2007/01/6679/ https://arstechnica.com/apple/2007/01/6679/
      • vel0city 9y ago
        Windows has had the option to upgrade editions from within the OS for many years, without requiring an OS reinstall. The first version I recall having it was Windows Vista, but it may have existed with Windows XP as well. Within a few minutes and a reboot you could go from having the Basic version of Windows Vista to Ultimate.
  • protomyth 9y ago
    Pretty much kills us from buying it. I would love to, but grants and high education in general have a lot of custom software that won't be put in the store. Damn shame too.
  • jsz0 9y ago
    > The reception thus far hasn't been extremely encouraging. It can't be any worse than downloading random exe files off the web. Most people are scared to install software on their computers at this point.
• deleted 9y ago
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• iamNumber4 9y ago
  We should all be taking offense by this. This is the drug dealer play book, Hook the kids early, so that when they are adults they go with what they know, instead of being critical thinkers and evaluating the available products to pick the best technical solution for the needs at hand. this is why small to mid-sized companies are struggling with MS server products, and are locked into this merry-go-round licensing fees. Other products that could alleviate are ignored because of F.U.D. Thus giving us Camps of Pro Apple, Pro Microsoft, anti open source, pro open source. We should be teaching kids at a young age about all platforms, what they are good for, what they are not. So that we can educate the next generation of workers about computers in general. while not trying to indoctrinate them into a particular platform. So educators and decision makers please take heed, and realize life is about choice., We should be teaching about choices, and then evaluating the choices once made. Then regardless of the choices we make, we learn from the outcome. If you make a poor choice, you are free to make a different choice the next time around.
  • deleted 9y ago
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  • tdb7893 9y ago
    I think it's different from drugs in that it is not actually addicting and also is necessary. I don't think teaching kids about different operating systems is very necessary, most people just do basic word processing and Web surfing on their computers, which is pretty similar across operating systems
  • josefresco 9y ago
    "Hook the kids early, so that when they are adults they go with what they know" What exactly do you think Apple (iPads) and Google (Chromebooks) are doing by encouraging the use of their devices in the classroom? "We should be teaching kids at a young age about all platforms," Most schools don't have the budget to purchase a sampling of all the major products/platforms. You also can't train a staff on all platforms. Lastly, that's not the point of bringing these devices into the classroom - it's not "pick a future computing platform 101" These are tools and teachers want to give them to, and teach their students how to use them to accomplish their goals.
• jlebrech 9y ago
  might be able to install steam on this?
  • tankenmate 9y ago
    Highly unlikely, Valve have always said they won't pay Microsoft the 30% fee. Having said that it's been reported that Valve charges a similar fee on Steam.
    • jlebrech 9y ago
      what do you mean? it's not x86?
      • rpeden 9y ago
        tankenmate is saying that it will only run applications installed from the Windows Store. Steam isn't in the store, and isn't going to be int he store, because they don't want to give Microsoft a cut of their revenue.
        • jlebrech 9y ago
          that makes sense, I bet it won't be that hard to crack though.
    • robhu 9y ago
      Yes, well it makes sense that Valve are not going to pay Microsoft 30% of every Steam sale via Steam installs from the Windows store as it'd mean Valve would get 0% of that sale themselves, and they're the ones who built the store and infrastructure up over a many years. Microsoft are just coming in at the last moment and hosting a very small Steam installer binary!
  • pinkythepig 9y ago
    You would have to upgrade the Windows license first. These ship with a version of Windows that only allows installations from the windows app store. To upgrade to a 'real' Windows license will cost an extra $50.
• smrtinsert 9y ago
  Windows 10 'lite'? DOA.
• sergiotapia 9y ago
  Let's stop doing clickbait on HN please.
  • tyleo 9y ago
    I have seen a few messages about this being clickbait. I am confused by this. I clicked on a link and it is an unveiling of a new Surface which seems to be a Chromebook competitor since it is aimed at the education market. That seems to be in line with what the title says. What qualifies this as clickbait?
    • wastedhours 9y ago
      When it was first posted it was before any announcement, thus the headline was based on guesswork and rumours as opposed to linking to an article containing any actual information.
• threatofrain 9y ago
  Direct Link => http://event.microsoft.com/MayEvent/ http://event.microsoft.com/MayEvent/
  • Mithaldu 9y ago
    FYI, and in case it's not visible to you, your last two posts are "dead" and you may have been hell-banned.
    • threatofrain 9y ago
      Who does the hell banning?
      • Mithaldu 9y ago
        Note, "may". But if you're not sure the best option is generally to send an email to the moderators via the "contact" link at the bottom.
        • threatofrain 9y ago
          If a mod opaquely wants me gone, then there's probably nothing to gain by fighting back... thanks for letting me know though.
          • Mithaldu 9y ago
            Well, given that your other recent posts show up fine, i doubt it's actually that. So might be worth asking what happened in any case. Plus, that docking post is really good and i'd like more people to think that open-minded.
  • deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
• dangrossman 9y ago
  They're now demoing the Surface Laptop. Thinner than a MacBook Air. Faster than a MacBook Pro. Longer battery life than either. The downside? "Windows 10 S", which only runs apps from the Windows Store. The upside over Windows RT from the Windows 8 era? You can port Win32 apps to the Store today, don't think you could back then. Edit: You can upgrade Windows 10 S to ordinary Windows 10 Pro for $50. Laptops that run Windows S from other manufacturers will start at $189.
  • kyriakos 9y ago
    I am not sure if they still have that feature but when first info about Windows S was leaked it said that you can "upgrade" to full Windows with an extra fee.
  • pawadu 9y ago
    Given the target market (schools) I think not being able to install downloaded software is only a good thing. Also, did you see the performance demo? 10s was significantly faster than 10 Pro. Not sure about the $999 for the cheapest model however. Does it include an Office 365 subscription?
    • rocky1138 9y ago
      > Given the target market (schools) I think not being able to install downloaded software is only a good thing. Except that giving kids unfettered access to their computers allows them to flourish. See: BBC Micro, Raspberry Pi, Apple ][, the list goes on.
      • tashoecraft 9y ago
        Except that having each kid able to brick their computer leads to significant problems for IT in debugging everyone's computer. As well as letting them move away from educational material extremely easily. I agree that great things can happen when kids can truly explore their computer and take away the 'magic', but just handing all kids a laptop and having them go wild is not the way to do it. I don't what is, to be fair.
• kyriakos 9y ago
  Its not as bad as it first sounds. You can run full office, you have an ok browser and casual games. Its obviously not made for most of the people on HN but it fits the requirements for a lot of people business and home users. Assuming they release some very cheap laptops / convertibles running it it could work.
  • partiallypro 9y ago
    Panay also alluded to you being able to upgrade the new Surface Laptop to Windows Pro, if you needed it. They are pushing Win32 apps to go into the store, so app published there that are Win32 will be supported in Windows S.
    • kyriakos 9y ago
      yeah that sounds like Windows RT but up-gradable if needed. The thing is, for a lot of people just running Office and a browser they'll be happy. What a lot of people won't like is having Edge only as their browser though.
      • MikusR 9y ago
        Mozilla and Google are free to add their browsers to store.
        • ocdtrekkie 9y ago
          Though it's unlikely they'll want to maintain another distribution for Windows while most Windows users are still on Windows 7.
          • kyriakos 9y ago
            I'm not sure how easily win32 apps can be ported to the store, might be worth the trouble.
            • 9y ago
• adam12 9y ago
  Is this really a Chromebook competitor with a price starting at $999?
  • kyriakos 9y ago
    I guess Microsoft never officially pitted Windows S against ChromeOS - the media did.
    • mikhailt 9y ago
      Microsoft specifically mentioned Chromebooks when they talked about one of the school districts switching away from it to Windows 10 S for simplification.
  • dangrossman 9y ago
    "New Windows 10 Education PCs will be coming out soon from partners including Asus, Samsung, Dell, and HP, starting at $189." The Surface Laptop isn't meant to compete with those. Like everything else in the Surface line, it's more of an example to the rest of the industry of what kind of devices they could/should be building for Windows to run on.
    • kyriakos 9y ago
      189 will be low res & atom based but I guess you get what you pay for.
      • SomeStupidPoint 9y ago
        I have a cheap Windows 2-in-1 that lists for $180 but I picked up for $100. I'm reasonably happy with it, except for the touchpad (planning to get a mouse and disable), but for the price it's certainly a fine computer. It's definitely what I'd buy for a kid. I expect that MS is just encouraging more of those kinds of devices to be made, maybe with slightly better HW.
    • mrweasel 9y ago
      That's honestly the route Microsoft needs to stop taking. Microsofts hardware partners have shown time and time again that they will sell extremely low quality hardware just to hit certain price brackets. Many of the complains people have about Windows is often down to poor quality and low performance hardware. At least HP would rather sell you a piece of crap laptop that can't actually run Windows, than admit that it's not actually possible to deliver at the price point the customer asks for.
• captainmuon 9y ago
  Windows S is completely backwards. If the Windows Store was actually any good, they should make a version without store apps (win32 only) and let customers pay a premium to use signed, vetted, store apps. (Only half kidding...) But this way around, store apps will always be viewed as the cheaper, less featured option.
  • djsumdog 9y ago
    No one uses the Apple app stop on MacOS because apparently it's terrible. I don't see going to a closed/walled garden system as being any type of meaningful advantage. You're trading off some security/sandboxing for reduced flexibility. If Microsoft wanted something competitive, they'd allow people to add other repositories to their stores, so manufactures could publish their own certs and people could chose to trust them .. remove MS from the middle man, but allow their update system to be more universal.
    • denzil_correa 9y ago
      > No one uses the Apple app stop on MacOS because apparently it's terrible AFAIK, most major apps are on the macOS app store.
      • nezza-_- 9y ago
        Afaik quite some of the major apps were leaving it in the last years (Sketch comes to mind), but might just be my filter bubble.. Would be interesting to hear from some Mac OS devs
        • moduspwnens14 9y ago
          It's just tricky because of the restrictions, and it's not just the restrictions themselves but the reality that you're limited to them in the future. Even if your app can run in a sandbox today, are you willing to turn down any future feature requests that would make it so it won't? We're putting an app on there, but our app is kind of an ideal use case because we don't expect to have to add features that can't work in the sandbox and our app is free. It's a tougher sell if you have to cut features to fit in the sandbox or hand off 30% of your sale to Apple. Admittedly that 30% isn't unreasonable if you're really just starting out. That does include hosting, purchasing, and billing. But those things can be done at a much cheaper rate than 30% if you can set them up. Panic is one of my favorite Mac app developers and (just checked) one of their apps (Coda) is distributed outside the App Store [1], while Transmit is distributed on both. [1] https://panic.com/blog/coda-2-5-and-the-mac-app-store/ https://panic.com/blog/coda-2-5-and-the-mac-app-store/
• cdnsteve 9y ago
  Video and more info here: https://blogs.windows.com/devices/2017/05/02/introducing-surface-laptop-powered-by-windows-10-s/#0A3MMFxFQGtey0zo.97 https://blogs.windows.com/devices/2017/05/02/introducing-sur... https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-10-s https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-10-s Windows 10 S integrates with OneDrive so files are saved to the cloud, in sync and accessible from your devices. Use compatible apps available from the Windows Store. If you need to use professional tools or would rather run non-Store apps, you can easily and affordably switch to Windows 10 Pro.7
  • sctb 9y ago
    Thanks, we've updated the link from https://techcrunch.com/2017/05/02/watch-microsoft-unveil-its-windows-10-based-chromebook-competitor-live-right-here https://techcrunch.com/2017/05/02/watch-microsoft-unveil-its....
• mtgx 9y ago
  And the price is?
• Roritharr 9y ago
  Dead on Arrival for our company. We only buy Thunderbolt 3 equipped notebooks for compatibility with our Dockingstation-Flexdesk setups. I would have bought them in a heartbeat over Dell XPS 13s for our Customer Support guys. It makes me really sad because this points to longer clinging to the Surface Pro 3 Connector, so the next Surface Pro & Surface Book are likely not to ditch it in favor of TB3. I'm still on my Surface Pro 2 and want to upgrade badly, but this makes me look elsewhere. Sadly.
  • kartickv 9y ago
    I agree — as someone who hasn't bought a Surface or a Surface Dock, a proprietary version of Thunderbolt 3 or USB-C is a step back, not a step forward.
  • agmcleod 9y ago
    > Dead on Arrival for our company. It's not for professionals, it's for students.
• deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
• killjoywashere 9y ago
  Fabric on a horizontal surface my fingers are supposed to touch 1000 times a day for the next 3-5 years? So gross.
• nxc18 9y ago
  Really, really disappointed by the lack of Windows on ARM news. All the rumors were pointing to it, but it looks like we're stuck with Intel. Not that Intel is bad, and its gotten better on mobile, but still, legitimate choice would be nice.
  • Analemma_ 9y ago
    I imagine if there is news to share on that front, it will happen at Microsoft's developer conference, which is next week. So don't give up hope yet.
• tdicola 9y ago
  This seems like a couple years too late. Just from specs alone there are better laptops coming out of China today from Xiamo, Chuwi, etc. Stuff like the Xiaomi Mi book (https://www.engadget.com/2016/07/27/xiaomi-mi-notebook-air-laptop-china/ https://www.engadget.com/2016/07/27/xiaomi-mi-notebook-air-l...) or Chuwi Lapbook (http://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-10-laptops-chuwi-prices-its-new-hi-res-display-lapbook-12-3-at-350/ http://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-10-laptops-chuwi-prices...) that are thinner, lighter, have high resolution displays, etc. and that cost significantly less than $999. This just looks like something forgettable that will be lost in a sea of middling Windows ultrabooks.
• zod50 9y ago
  the surface laptop isn't a chromebook competitor, it's more of a macbook air/pro competitor. the windows 10 S based laptops manufactured by asus, acer, dell, fujitsu, hp, samsung, toshiba are the real chromebook competitors. i think its basically windows 10 S Vs chrome OS.
• hartator 9y ago
  It reminds me of the MacBook 12". Apple is again late to update it - was "due" this April.
  • jsz0 9y ago
    They're probably working on a design refresh. Spec bumps alone aren't enough anymore to get people to buy new computers.
  • akeck 9y ago
    Often, Apple misses their update estimates because their CPU/chipset vendor can't meet their required thermal specs for that particular model. The MacBook 12" guts fit in a tiny space under the top of the keyboard, near the hinge. All other space has been used for batteries. I expect the MacBook 12" to become an A-series ARM laptop sooner rather than later, so that Apple has full control over the thermal specs of the CPU/chipset.
• vthallam 9y ago
  I was like 'Wow' until I saw the price. You can't target college students with Windows S which only runs apps from the Windows store. Edit : missed the part which says, you can upgrade to 10.
  • EpicEng 9y ago
    You can upgrade to Win 10, he says it at the end.
  • jlebrech 9y ago
    and for $999, what are they thinking? basically $1049 for something that does school stuff + gaming badly. can't you get a VX5 for that price? or chromebook + gaming rig.
• emsy 9y ago
  I haven't seen any info whether the display is detachable or not and if it's compatible with the pen. If not that's a huge missed opportunity, especially if they're targeting the education sector. As other comments already pointed out, other companies are already doing small Windows laptops better and cheaper.
  • agscala 9y ago
    Not detachable, but it is compatible with the pen.
  • dragonwriter 9y ago
    360-degree flip pen support (e.g., like Samsung's newest Chromebook) would be good enough, and more typical of laptop-vs-tablet.
• yoodenvranx 9y ago
  The display has a 3:2 aspect ratio, I hope that means that we slowly move away from 16:9 screens on laptops.
  • eugeniub 9y ago
    What's wrong with 16:9?
    • Synaesthesia 9y ago
      I also prefer 16:10 or 3:2 because 16:9 has a lot less vertical space which is quite important for reading etc.
    • mrweasel 9y ago
      When was the last time you saw a web page or application that was actually designed with 16:9 in mind? It's a wonderful format if you have a huge screen/high resolution where you're able to fit multiple applications or windows side by side. For small screen you just get a lot of scrolling.
      • 72deluxe 9y ago
        I tend to use native applications. They resize fine to a 16:9 screen - I think it is the web apps that insist on a certain layout (e.g. text in a column, huge areas of whitespace etc)?
    • yoodenvranx 9y ago
      I use a laptop mainly for reading and writing, so I need vertical space and not horizontal space. I have an old Lenovo T61 with a 4:3 display and it's awesome. I just wish there would be an upgrade from 14001050 to 15001200.
    • amiga-workbench 9y ago
      Only useful for consuming content. It's like working through a slit when it comes to content authoring. 16:10 adsorbs a lot of toolbars.
• Flow5457 9y ago
  From the FAQ (https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4020089/windows-10-s-faq https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4020089/windows-10-...) : > Are there any defaults that I cannot change on my Windows 10 S PC? > Yes, Microsoft Edge is the default web browser on Microsoft 10 S. You are able to download another browser that might be available from the Windows Store, but Microsoft Edge will remain the default if, for example, you open an .htm file. Additionally, the default search provider in Microsoft Edge and Internet Explorer cannot be changed Doesn't it make it illegal in the EU?
  • rkangel 9y ago
    I'd imagine that Microsoft looked into that closely. I actually don't have a problem with it - you can install firefox through the store easily enough, and opening local html files is a niche case. It'll be mildly tedious if coding docs appear in Edge, but I'm probably not coding on Windows 10 S.
    • skrebbel 9y ago
      The FAQ is deceptive. AFAICT you can't make Firefox the default for opening links in other apps either. That, together with "no changing search to google" is going to make many people hate Windows S, I bet.
      • BinaryIdiot 9y ago
        > "no changing search to google" is going to make many people hate Windows S, I bet. I highly doubt it. The majority of customers won't care at all. Edge and Bing are both really, really good. Most customers that I've worked with when during technical support don't really notice and usually just keep the defaults. Chrome's touchscreen support is absolutely awful so Edge is usually the best go-to option for a touch screen PC anyway.
        • globuous 9y ago
          They've made a really good job with bing's ui. I have a windows 10 laptop at work and I hadn't used windows in years. I tested edge for a few weeks and hadn't realized I was searching on bing for the longest time !! The ui was so similar to google's, the results good enough and I got "fooled". I think I noticed because I wasn't finding links I knew the "google keywords" to. So their results somewhat do differ ! I switched back to google once I realised though.
• oceanswave 9y ago
  A fabric covered keyboard... wondering how that's going to look in a year of use. 1 USB 3.0 port and a proprietary Surface Connect port... So more surface-only dongles if you want to connect to a VGA/DVI/HDMI display. Is the Surface Connect port completely proprietary or is a rebranded Thunderbolt? Starts at $999 for a 13.5" i5/4GB/128GB SSD, and then you have to upgrade to Windows 10 Pro for $49 if you want to use Steam or non-ms appstore apps... and after 1 year pay $70/yr or $7/mo for O365
  • soapdog 9y ago
    From the page there appears to be a minidisplay port and a card reader. The main use for the surface connect port is attaching it to the dock. I have a Surface 4 Pro here and the experience with the dock and the connector is great.
    • compuguy 9y ago
      And charging it!
  • TheRealDunkirk 9y ago
    The pricing is one thing I don't understand. If you're asking a customer to pay the same price as a MacBook air, which comes with productivity apps and a basic cloud service for free, why don't you let them use O365 for free, in perpetuity, at least on that machine? The other thing I don't understand is the overarching message. The line we've been fed from Microsoft's marketing team is that the "convertibility" of the Surface line is what everyone wanted, and what made it better than any Apple product in every way. Now, they're back to a plain, old laptop configuration? Is this an admission of defeat? Have Surface sales flat-lined? (You'd think that was an easy question to answer, but search results show a lot of conflicting headlines, and I can't find any graphs in the first 5 tries.)
    • zghst 9y ago
      People will list it as an attribute that they get add-ons for free. I'm sure Microsoft is confident in releasing hardware that is relevant to our digital lives under the Surface brand. It's pretty obvious if you go back and look at the pattern, there's either a sect of engineers or product people who really believe in the original Surface table vision, it's a very viable strategy until v1 of the HoloLens is complete
• erickhill 9y ago
  Since this is a Surface, is the screen touchable? It's a pretty machine, but the brand seems slightly fragmented. What does "surface" stand for at this stage? I wonder if we'll see iPad Laptops someday, too?
  • agmcleod 9y ago
    They mentioned in the announcement that it supports the Pen. So yes it's touch.
• kris-s 9y ago
  Loving the move away from 16:9 aspect ratios. Looks like some serious competition for Apple's notebooks.
• skykooler 9y ago
  I wonder how well Linux will run on this?
  • pizza234 9y ago
    Likely, poorly to "kind of OK". Almost 3 years after release, SP3 is at the "kind of OK" status, on the bleeding edge kernel (4.11-rc8). Situation improves if you're willing to using an old, pre-patched kernel, or you can patch by yourself.
• kartan 9y ago
  Installing "Windows 10 S" is like getting one of that ink printers that cost $40, but then you pay $60 for each ink cartridge. To minimize the impact, Microsoft allows for an upgrade to a real version of Windows. It is an smart move, as it lowers the friction to later on remove that possibility completely (I hope that not in this model). The hardware looks good, but it is another movement towards the "technology tax" where hardware vendors get profit from other company's software development. It is like being a door to door vendor and having to paying 30% of revenue to your car's manufacturer. Internet Service Providers tried this and failed, hardware manufacturers succeeded.
  • wvenable 9y ago
    This allows Microsoft to shave a few dollars off the price in order to either make it up via the app store or get users to pay the difference for Pro. It's both terrible and brilliant.
• hdhzy 9y ago
  I'm looking forward to initial reviews. It looks absolutely fantastic but being heavily burned by Dell XPS 13 (9350) I'll rather wait a little bit...
• deleted 9y ago
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• simonebrunozzi 9y ago
  Only one question for Microsoft: touchpad. I have a Macbook and touchpads are just vastly superior to anything else in the market. If they nailed this, they have a new customer.
  • 0xcoffee 9y ago
    The precision touchpads have received much praise, but imo are still inferior to the ones on Macbooks. On my XPS a minuscule hair from my eyelash or the tiniest trace of sweat will make it go crazy while the Macbook is much more forgiving.
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  • chokolad 9y ago
    If it's similar to Surface Book's one (and I suspect it is) - then it comes very close to Macbooks. I was spoiled by MacBook Pro's touchpad and felt that even "premium" Windows laptops have shitty ones but Surface Book touchpad is very good. It has slightly smaller amount of gestures, but the basics are there.
    • temp246810 9y ago
      This is not true - have to disagree. The touchpad on a mac is not mechanical - you get a uniform "click" no matter where you press. For PC laptops, the touchpads are still mechanical and work almost as if on a hinge. The hinge is at the top of the pad so clicking near there sometimes is impossible.
      • chokolad 9y ago
        are you talking about Surface Book's touchpad specifically or PC touchpads in general ? Also, when did touchpad on the mac stopped being mechanical? My experience is with pre retina MacBook Pro.
        • masivemunkey 9y ago
• haswell 9y ago
  It appears that the cost to upgrade the i7 model from 8GB RAM / 256GB SSD to 16GB RAM / 512GB SSD is ~$600 ($1599 - $2199). This is something Apple has long been criticized for. Is there something I'm missing? Because this seems like a ridiculous premium.
  • codedinosaur 9y ago
    From what I've been seeing from the way they sell and price their other surface devices, and according to some bloggers, MS just wants to set a reference for other manufacturers to make Windows devices. They seem to price their products intentionally higher so that they don't cannibalize Dell, Lenovo, HP and others. Don't know whether it is a good strategy or not, but that's how they are approaching all their in-house Windows devices
    • ktta 9y ago
      I doubt that's the case anymore. With Chromebook Pixel, it was understandable because it was plain as day. In this case, it looks like they put in a lot of effort into design and the overall effort seems to show that they do want these laptops to be sold.
  • FireBeyond 9y ago
    Well, half criticized, half lauded. There are many people around HN and elsewhere that will say that it is an entirely sound and justified decision, "and besides, if you use it every day for three years that's not even a dollar a day, why shouldn't they charge a premium?", etc.
  • scott00 9y ago
    It's certainly not justified by the difference in component costs. My feeling is it's an attempt at price discrimination. For users running an office suite, web browser, and not much else, even the lowest spec machine is plenty. They want to compete on price for those customers. Users doing media processing, scientific computing, or development are probably more willing and able to spend more on a laptop, so Microsoft is charging more.
  • 9y ago
• akhilcacharya 9y ago
  I don't know why they decided to launch 10 S with a Macbook competitor. Makes zero sense - launch it with a Surface 4 or a Surface "Lite" or something that costs < $500. Or are they not intending to compete with Chromebooks anymore? Even then, the device itself is severely gimped - only 1 USB 3, no USBC. While the display looks like it should be nice the fact that the $1,000 base model only offers 4GB of RAM is nothing short of absurd.
  • epmaybe 9y ago
    There's another article floating around announcing other devices as low as $190 running Windows 10 S that will probably actually compete with Chromebooks.
    • akhilcacharya 9y ago
      When why launch with a neutered version on the ultrabook? It doesn't make sense to me.
      • BinaryIdiot 9y ago
        Much like Google's Pixel that was a crazy price for Chrome OS; it's the flagship device for Windows 10 S.
• deleted 9y ago
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• ghusbands 9y ago
  This seems to heavily dilute the Surface brand. Until now, you could get a Surface device and know you were getting a useful, independent writing/touch surface and a good-to-great keyboard/trackpad to attach. Now we're given a laptop with no convertibility whatsoever; not even a 360 degree hinge like many similar-spec laptops?
  • dragon_greens 9y ago
    It started as a table. Moved to a tablet. Then a laptop. Brand dilution doesn't seem like a priority for Microsoft. Wish they had more sensible and less confusing naming. This is not fun to explain when people ask. (Same can be said of Google and a bunch of other tech companies too though.)
    • johnchristopher 9y ago
      > Brand dilution doesn't seem like a priority for Microsoft. It's an euphemism considering the whole windows mail live hotmail with skydrive now onedrive thing.
  • Clanan 9y ago
    Heavily dilute? That's a bit dramatic. There was a tablet, now there's a laptop too.
  • manigandham 9y ago
    How is this diluting anything? The brand still stands for solid products (not just writing/drawing and this still does has a touchscreen). here are just several models denoted by the second word in the product name.
  • zghst 9y ago
    It's not a dilution. It's quite the opposite, it is an expansion of what Surface can be. And let's reach back to the original Surface that was envisioned a decade ago that no one remembers, you remember that table? That Surface? And how it became a tablet years and years later? I think their marketing team has thought about this but, abstractly it seems that they are trying to cover all existing hardware concepts that are in the world today in the Surface line, phone, tablet, laptop, maybe TV. That's plan now of Microsoft's strategy. What's next up Microsofts sleeve, HoloLens. They are still chasing that dream that they envisioned with Surface but it's not going to be realized with the Surface hardware, they are a means to an end (hardware manufacturing experience, keep and grow talent, test device interfaces, implant touchable everything on all devices)
• msh 9y ago
  I know windows 10s is supposed to be lean, but 4GB of ram in a 999$ laptop seems stingy. Even apple gives you more RAM for 999$
• mbrock 9y ago
  "When the work is done and it’s time to relax, you can watch 14 episodes of your favorite TV show in one sitting, without ever plugging in." I'm glad I'm not the only one...
• wamatt 9y ago
  Nice aesthetics and form factor, which makes the choice to use fabric right under the palms, more than odd. Perhaps it will have strong sales given potential buyers rarely consider these long term issues. However, that fabric is almost certainly going to turn nasty over time and be a pain to manage. It's like innovating by installing living potted plants inside a Ferrari to improve air quality. Cleaner air is a desirable goal, although the implementation could use another iteration.
  • notatoad 9y ago
    Microsoft has been using the same fabric for the keyboard covers on the Surface tablet for at least the last two generations. It seems weird on a laptop, but they should have most of the issues sorted out by now.
  • georgeek 9y ago
    While that's certainly a concern, let's not forget that Alcantara is very common in high-end sports cars. It's commonly used in endurance racing (24h of le Mans etc).
    • gambiting 9y ago
      I have a full alcantara steering wheel in my Mercedes AMG. It's awful, and AMG Private Lounge forums will tell you the same story, it's not uncommon for people to literally go and swap their alcantara-clad wheels in their $100k vehicles for normal leather. Initially it feels amazing when the car is brand new, but you need to keep cleaning it every month or otherwise it becomes this dirty clump of neither pleasant leather, nor smooth material, it's just unpleasant to touch - and after a certain point it doesn't matter how much you clean it, it just looks like an old rag and the only thing you can do is have the wheel re-done. Having a laptop covered in alcantara sounds like the worst idea ever, probably only a notch better than having shiny black piano plastic on surfaces which scratch from just looking at them.
  • codydh 9y ago
    This struck me as really odd too. This is one thing I think Apple (and others) have gotten really right. Metal doesn't wear down much from regular use or resting your palms on it like plastic or fabric does.
• slaymaker1907 9y ago
  Windows 10 S makes me cry. It's the end of an era if it takes off and I can never forgive Microsoft for this.
• humanfromearth 9y ago
  Wouldn't that fabric get dirty over time? I usually use wet towels to clean the keyboard area on my laptop, how would you clean that fabric though?
  • j-c-m 9y ago
    For most cleanup a damp towel would work fine, if it got really dirty there are purpose designed Alcantara/Microsuede cleaners.
• russellbeattie 9y ago
  Do any of you have children at a school using Google Chromebooks and Google Drive? Calling Windows S a Chromebook competitor completely misses the point. Chromebooks are instant on, and your profile/data is 100% cloud based. You can grab any Chromebook from the rack in the back of the classroom, open it up, log in and immediately get to work on your report or whatever. I got an original Chromebook from Google I/O years ago based on an ancient ARM chip, and it's still perfectly usable for when my kid's friend comes over to do homework and they need an extra box. Windows and Mac computers will never be that easy to setup, use or maintain. Chromebooks and the cloud system of apps that Google has made is pretty much a perfect combination of simple and cheap and good enough.
  • krzyk 9y ago
    Until you loose internet connectivity (happens from time to time), or go abroad and don't want to pay high fees for net access. Or when Google decides that you broke some of their rules (frequently happens in AdSense) and blocks all of your accounts.
    • opportune 9y ago
      I think you're missing the point. Children don't need to worry about breaking AdSense rules and getting their accounts blocked, especially if they have accounts dedicated for school. Children also will have internet at school.
      • BatFastard 9y ago
        Exactly, these are single purpose laptops for education. And I do believe that google docs has an offline mode now. So they can work offline for a limited period (at least). And how does this 1000 USD compete with 250 USD boxes?
        • rubyn00bie 9y ago
          The way it likely competes (which I'm not saying I agree with) is on supportability and productivity. That is to say, I'm sure Microsoft has data that "shows" these will be cheaper to administrate and support than Chromebooks. Combine that with all the software you can install, or offline workflows, etc and Microsoft comes out on top (according to Microsoft). It's how Microsoft has always done things. I'm not here saying it's right or wrong, I'm just trying to answer your question.
• bobsgame 9y ago
  This laptop is awesome! I hope they will update the removable dynamic hinge model as well, I really liked it. I do have some concern that Windows S may be another step towards the "boiling the frogs" that Tim Sweeney was warning about. I think he is very wise in saying we should be wary of Microsoft gradually closing Windows down as a platform.
• RikNieu 9y ago
  Call me when it runs Ubuntu.
  • JBiserkov 9y ago
    Last call for passenger RikNieu! x86/x64 Inyel CPUs can run Ubuntu. Also, after you upgrade it to Windows Pro free until end of 2017, $50 afterwards) you can run Ubuntu in a VM, or natively using the miracle that is WSL. So 3 ways this can run Ubuntu, each with it's own cost/benefit balance.
• nkkollaw 9y ago
  I don't exactly love the carpet thing, but the main problem is definitely Windows 10S. Despite what Apple is trying to push, I would not like a laptop running iOS, and an iPad Pro is definitely not a "computer".
• yuhong 9y ago
  Has anything been said about PAE or are the rumors wrong? (I remember it mentioning 4GB of RAM but also a 32-bit version for only 32GB of storage.)
• uranian 9y ago
  The bad news is they're targeting students. Who wants to see his children being locked into MS Windows software by school? Besides, we just found out Windows 10 has almost complete control over your system and calls home, now sending your kids private data as a bonus! I would never accept my kids using a device like this on school. Schools are just ignorant and stupid if they make a deal for these laptops with MS. Schools should go for linux and open source, more educational as well.
  • my123 9y ago
    You talk as if Chromebooks with Google Apps for Education don't send everything, including browser history, to the mothership.
    • nxpnsv 9y ago
      I do not think that was advocating chromebooks as an alternative.
    • JustSomeNobody 9y ago
      They didn't say anything about Chromebooks. They said Linux.
  • 72deluxe 9y ago
    Out of interest, how is it more educational? I had a fun time educating myself back in the day as I tried to get X to work with my video card. I jest! In all truth I suspect there are millions of system administrators who have never even used 'Lye-nucks' so attempting to get students (who need support) to use Linux devices will probably never happen (unless the admin/IT staff is extremely pro-Linux) or the school wishes to spend money retraining their staff.
    • mixmastamyk 9y ago
      Whoa, blast from the past.
  • skybrian 9y ago
• nepotism2016 9y ago
  " up to four more hours of battery power than a 13” MacBook Pro." isn't this sign of defeat? mentioning another competitor in your marketing
  • steego 9y ago
    Only if you're already the dominant player. If you're the dominant player and you mention the second competitor, you're lending them your credibility by suggesting you can even be compared to them. Microsoft is in a different boat. They have to compare themselves to the dominant player, because first question people ask themselves is: Why shouldn't I just buy the dominant product? Why should I break from the wisdom of the crowd?
• romanovcode 9y ago
  I think this is great! Average Joe doesn't need any Win32 applications anymore and this will do nicely. If you want to upgrade to Win10 Home it's just 50 dollars.
  • popuptent 9y ago
    $50 to switch a boolean?
    • JBiserkov 9y ago
      $launch_nukes?
    • devrandomguy 9y ago
      If you can predict a cosmic ray strike with great precision, then you might be able to get that bit flipped for free.
  • pcunite 9y ago
    Average Joe doesn't need any Win32 applications anymore This is earth, not Mars. But it's nice to dream.
• CJefferson 9y ago
  I'm sick of aluminium computers. This really attracted me, until I found that I can only have the colours with the most basic model :\
  • cultofmetatron 9y ago
    why? it holds up to wear and tear better than plastic and lets heat escape.
• greyfox 9y ago
  So is this just another veiled attempt to repeat Windows RT? it says it runs only windows store apps.
• norswap 9y ago
  If I may venture a prediction, the dealbreaker is going to be the price. MacBooks are overpriced, and have grown more so, and it looks like Microsoft is trying to position itself on that premium segment (the Surface tablets being ridiculously overpriced).
• accountyaccount 9y ago
  >using the Surface Dial/* to run your Spotify playlist rolling deep with the asterisks here
• RichardHeart 9y ago
  I hear that most kids live on their phones. Phones are really powerful these days. If kids did their schoolwork on the same device they spent all their time on anyway, it could save lots of money, and latency switching. Plugging peripherals into phones isn't too hard. I don't think educational institutions are getting much value out of the near thousand dollar phones kids live on these days.
• jhoechtl 9y ago
  Will it run Linux out of the box?
• io-io 9y ago
  ... at 15 seconds into the first video, it clearly shows an i7 chip. The specs call out an i5. So, M$- what exactly is it? Bait and switch? Also, I want to load my own software - not the crap from your $tore.
  • burkaman 9y ago
    https://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/pdp/productID.5102691100?VID=5105347700 https://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/pdp/product... You can pay more for an i7, and you can switch to Windows 10 Pro if you want a normal OS that runs anything.
• znpy 9y ago
  I find it to have a very nice design. Also, I think it's really time to drop custom laptop chargers the same way we all did for phone chargers, and switch to USB-C for power supplying.
• zyngaro 9y ago
  Any chance this beauty runs Linux is mac os?
• bigly 9y ago
  I find it annoying that you have to purchase the high-end $2200 configuration if you want to have 16 GB of RAM. I'd be fine with an i5, 256 GB SSD and 16 GB of RAM.
• neuralzen 9y ago
  I wonder if sleep mode actually works on it, unlike previous iterations of the surface models.
• grandalf 9y ago
  I keep waiting for the price of these things to dip below $400. $999 is a very premium price and makes it hard to buy it as an impulse purchase.
• mtw 9y ago
  I'm underwhelmed - but that's probably because I'm not the targeted user. 4GB of RAM... a youtube video, a chat window, facebook, google docs and then it will be out of memory? Also no nvidia card for graphics acceleration (VR, gaming, machine learning). Also I'm sure many kids will find a way to hack it and install steam and other good apps. I just hope it's an entrée before Microsoft introduces the next generation of surface books.
  • flukus 9y ago
    > 4GB of RAM... a youtube video, a chat window, facebook, google docs and then it will be out of memory? I think your criticism is better directed at those apps than at the laptop manufacturer.
• zmmmmm 9y ago
  Shame no 32GB option. The worst thing about Apple not offering it is that it has taken pressure off competitors. Laptops supporting 32GB are quite rare beasts as a result.
• beloch 9y ago
  Microsoft's hardware game seems to be finally picking up steam. They used to be a big step behind Apple (e.g. Zune), but now they seem to be finally competing and doing quite well on both price and quality. It will be interesting to see if they embrace selling hardware as a core source of revenue or continue to treat hardware as a way to suck customers into their ecosystem. Microsoft is now decently involved with Linux and open source on many fronts. Certainly moreso than Apple. Macbooks are well supported by Linux in spite of Apple's wishes, not because of them. A lot of people love Apple hardware and work hard to build support for it. Microsoft doesn't need to trouble themselves by selling Surfaces or Surface Laptops with linux pre-installed, but they could ensure that popular distros support their hardware well and are relatively well tested by release day (and publicize this, of course). This would allow them to steal some market share from Apple and Lenovo. The Linux laptop market probably isn't that huge but, like education users, it does cover a lot of people who might influence the purchases of others. I'd be sorely tempted to buy one of these surface laptops because the hardware looks great. However, I'd have to hear some pretty glowing reviews of high compatibility to depart from a safer bet.
  • goatherders 9y ago
    Agreed. For me it's the battery - love my xps 13 except the stupid battery
  • Stubb 9y ago
    The Windows Subsystem for Linux in Windows 10 seems to be eroding the need to install Linux separately. It's missing a few things like GPU access, and file I/O is leisurely, but it's already a super useful tool.
  • intoverflow2 9y ago
    > This would allow them to steal some market share from Apple and Lenovo The surface line isn't about becoming a big player in the laptop market. It's about raising the bar and expectations for Windows hardware.
• deleted 9y ago
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• shahbaby 9y ago
  Wow! They took out all the things that made the surface useful for college students and then marketed it towards them. A surface pro/book is a fully functional laptop which could eliminate the need for carrying around large piles of papers/notes. Take that away and what you have left is just a regular laptop (with a touchscreen that's rarely used). There's probably a market for this but it's not going to be college students.
• WD-42 9y ago
  Will it run Linux?
• brian_herman 9y ago
  Finally, someone has created a laptop with my favorite color blue. I love my surface book but a surface laptop would be even better in blue also.
• sandGorgon 9y ago
  >Testing conducted by Microsoft in April 2017 using preproduction Intel Core i5, 256GB, 8 GB RAM device Which processor are they using ?
• visarga 9y ago
  Is it possible to put Ubuntu on it?
• mcintyre1994 9y ago
  There's a fascinating story I'd love to hear about Microsoft's education strategy and how they seem to have lost it to Google. At least in the UK in comprehensives when I was in school (I guess I left 4-5 years ago) Microsoft absolutely dominated - every computer was Windows, and if you did a presentation it was PowerPoint, a poster it was Publisher etc etc. In fact I believe that the curriculum for most subjects involved some sort of computer skills.. which was always Microsoft stuff (or I guess computer research counts too). ICT was exclusively Microsoft too. It's so bad that when I was looking at universities for Computer Science many actively discouraged an ICT A Level and I can't think of any that rewarded it in any way. They owned the ICT curriculum, I wouldn't be surprised if they literally wrote it. The closest thing to practical programming was recording VB macros. My ICT teacher told us they got major discounts from Microsoft and I imagine that goes for every similar school. There is a computing curriculum but my course didn't even offer it - which isn't a surprise because our ICT teacher had no programming knowledge. I imagine most similar schools were in the same situation, where all they taught was Microsoft-sanctioned ICT to an exam/curriculum that might as well have been written by Microsoft, using Microsoft software exclusively, to the extent that ICT is a negative for technical further education where it should be a boost. Everyone leaving school knowing only how to use Microsoft things was obviously good for them, they controlled or might as well have the entire judgement of student's ICT knowledge through exams, I wonder how they blew it.
• ForFreedom 9y ago
  Microsoft attempt is to show good profit and there is nothing else to it. Windows 10 cannot be MacOSX. These are two different entities. Putting on a new dress, installing it in a new hardware, giving it a new name does not change the fact that windows S is close to windows 10. I work daily on MacOSX, Win 10 and linux
• jlebrech 9y ago
  so for the price of a gaming laptop, or a chromebook + gaming pc you can have a laptop with a cut down version of windows 10? or am i missing something.
• magoon 9y ago
  Another unmemorable, ambiguous product name from Microsoft. This one actually contains "Laptop" -- maybe the next will be "Surface Computer"?
• d0100 9y ago
  I'm a MS fanboy of sorts, but I'll never buy any piece of hardware that has that stupidly horrifying crooked logo of theirs.
• AngeloAnolin 9y ago
  Available for pre-order today, Surface Laptop brings the superior performance and security of Windows 10 S to a laptop that college students will love. with a price tag of: Surface Laptop starts at $999 USD and will be available beginning on June 15th. Are they really focused only for students? Is price tag reasonable for the student in this case?
• laughfactory 9y ago
  Bottom line: anybody handing a $1000 computer to kid better have deep pockets. I can replace a Chromebook four times for what one Surface laptop costs.