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Why Wallflowers Don't Make Friends
- RichardHeart 10y agoSummary: If you want to meet people, be meetable. Proximity is power. If you isolate yourself by location or behavior, less people are going to do the work of meeting you. If you're a man, this passive shit doesn't work as well, so get ready to be bridging the gap courageously yourself. Open ended questions usually fail. You're better off making interesting statements than you are actually asking questions. For instance: You look like you're from someplace very far away. vs. Where are you from? Open ended questions are pretty garbage unless someone is already attracted to you, and used to being conversational. Interrogations aren't fun.
- vpresident 10y agoAnd in conversation, instead of talking about you “I’m this, I’m that,” make them talk about themselves “Tell me about this. Tell me about what you hope.” Open-ended questions elicit interesting responses. “I am interesting, and we talked about something I like, so now you seem interesting, too.” That's simple projection.
- Isamu 10y agoThis was always impossible for me. So I always relied on friends introducing me to their other friends. I was unnaturally afraid of having to build up my network of friends from scratch. This held me back from moving across the country early on to build my career. I could have used some kind of mentor for social interactions or something.
- RichardHeart 10y agoBeing socially effective is a trainable skill like most other skills. The skills you build being confident and walking up to whomever you choose to say whatever you like, pays dividends in all areas of life. You're more likely to get funded, more likely to get the job and more likely to get the girl. The only trap is that once you get good, you'll be addicted to doing something that doesn't scale. Fame scales, meeting people one at a time pretty much does not.
- 1337biz 10y agoCan you elaborate on the trap? Why should/could it scale eg you can always push yourself into more exclusive environments or host events etc.
- RichardHeart 10y agoBe fun. People like fun people.
- 13of40 10y agoI hope this isn't part of your tactic, because what you just said makes me think I'd chew my own leg off to get away from you if we met socially. Edit: Just to clarify why I feel that way - you make it sound like there's a one size fits all model of what it means to be social, where the loud guy with good hair wins and all the dweebs lose. Maybe that's your niche, but you should know there's a bigger world out there.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- dasil003 10y agoYes but choosing life tactics based on scalability really makes one come across as inhuman and impossible to satisfy. That's fine if you want to be Elon Musk but I encourage the reader to carefully consider whether that is really what would make them happy.
- engx 10y agoGood comment but I wouldn't suggest saying you look like you are from someplace far away. Just sticking with the standard where you are from is good. Better to have traveled out of the country a few times so you can relate. Best advice is to talk about doing something. This art museum, this meetup, this new great restaurant. "Oh join me and my other friends. Or let's go explore together." You can kind of bluff your way through this even if you have no other friends (go find them!).
- SomeStupidPoint 10y agoI like "where have you traveled?" It usually invites them to talk about being from somewhere else without getting "Kansas, asshole" responses from, eg, Asian Americans. It also gives them a chance to talk about an interesting experience, even if they're from somewhere boring. Almost everyone has been on one cool trip.
- fjdlwlv 10y agoStill looks a little competitive. Not everyone is wealthy enough to travel.
- omegaham 10y agoIn such a scenario, most people will happily bust out the self-deprecation and say "Well, nowhere interesting, but I did go to <interesting_semi-local_place>." Even an hour road trip to somewhere offbeat can be interesting enough for conversation.
- kinkrtyavimoodh 10y ago>> "Well, nowhere interesting, but I did go to <interesting_semi-local_place>." Yes, but they may internally feel quite embarrassed saying they went to Rancho San Antonio when others are harping about snorkeling in the Great Barrier Reef and wrestling bears and seeing the Northern Lights.
- chestervonwinch 10y ago
- maroonblazer 10y ago>Open ended questions are pretty garbage unless someone is already attracted to you, and used to being conversational. Interrogations aren't fun. It seems like there's a lot of evidence that people like talking about themselves. Also, questions invite engagement where 'interesting statements' don't, necessarily. I think 'interesting questions' are a good route to go. Knowing a bit of philosophy helps here. E.g. "In a brain transplant would you rather be the donor or the recipient?" or "Should child-sized sex robots be legal?" Because regardless of the answer it invites follow ups like "Why?" and "What about you? How would you answer the question?"
- larrywright 10y ago> "Should child-sized sex robots be legal?" I'm not an expert in this field, but it seems like bringing up the subject of pedophilia (even in the abstract) in your first conversation with someone is ill-advised.
- kstoneman 10y agoDefinitely marking the guy in the maroon blazer as suspect and observing who his friends are for future avoidance.
- maroonblazer 10y agoSex with a robot and sex with a child aren't the same thing. See why it's a great conversation-starter?! :-) But yeah, it wouldn't be my first question.
- larrywright 10y agoRight, it's an interesting philosophical question, I'm just advising not to lead with it :)
- a_t48 10y agoIt's not a brain transplant, its a body transplant!
- BeetleB 10y ago>Open ended questions usually fail. You're better off making interesting statements than you are actually asking questions. For instance: You look like you're from someplace very far away. vs. Where are you from? "Where are you from?" is the exact opposite of an open ended question.
- d33 10y agoHas anyone read the book so far and could comment on it somehow?
- rublev 10y agoDoes anyone actually know anyone who reads this type of stuff?
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- empath75 10y agoBut wallflowers stand by the wall because they don't want to be approached.
- tomcooks 10y agoIs that really the impression they give? As a wallflower I wish people would start conversations with socially inept people like me and help them ease in public outings
- mjevans 10y agoParticularly when I don't have any friends to be there with.
- aidenn0 10y agoIt is 100% the impression they give. For any non-compulsory social event it's usually not true though. (Ultimately there has to be a reason they are at a social gathering; if it's not because somebody else made them go, then they want to socialize).
- nl 10y agoYes. As someone who has to fight my natural introversion I've noticed it is very hard to talk to someone who is literally standing by a wall. There's no way to approach them except deliberately, and.. well why would anyone try talking to someone who is hard to talk to when there are easier options. Instead, have a plan. And your plan includes at least one conversation map, which gets you through at least 2 minutes of conversation. Feel free to steal mine: Go and get a drink (it doesn't have to be alcoholic) and then say this to the person next to you: "Excuse me, I'm XXX. Do you know anyone here?". Their answer is either "Yes.. this is YYYY". Then you go "Hi! What do you do?". Or else they go "No, I don't know anyone either." Then you go: "Oh, I hate coming to this kind of thing when I don't know anyone. So what do you do?" The next level of this is to bring a third person in. Wait until you see someone looking lost (remember, you are near the food/drink, so people are walking past you) and go "Hi, I'm XXXX and this is YYYY. YYYY is a blah blah blah", and now you know at least 2 people, and are at the core of a group of people talking.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- Jedd 10y agoWhile gen-pop frequently abuses the word 'literal', you kind of hope that actual authors wouldn't: > There’s a moment in your book that I love, when you give advice to awkward people looking for social shortcuts, and you tell them not to be literal wallflowers. The anecdotal clarification there is that people in dormitories should ensure they are near the entrance -- precise details not provided.
- thetmkay 10y agoThe word "literal" here is slightly more complicated than in the usual commonplace misuse of the word. The author is trying to distinguish between "wallflower" the "socially awkward person" and "wallflower" the "person who stands near a wall". They are using a slightly more literal definition, but not the most literal (i.e. the plant). The justification is that "being near the wall" =/= "being in a high-traffic area".
- Jedd 10y agoI appreciate the point you're making. Re-read the quote I have in my comment and remove the word 'literal'. Does that sentence have more, less, or the same meaning / power to you?
- mrxd 10y agoWithout 'literal': don't be shy With 'literal': don't stand by the wall
- Jedd 10y agoAre you seriously suggesting there's a profound loss of meaning between: > There’s a moment in your book that I love, when you give advice to awkward people looking for social shortcuts, and you tell them not to be literal wallflowers. and > There’s a moment in your book that I love, when you give advice to awkward people looking for social shortcuts, and you tell them not to be wallflowers.
- learn_more 10y agoLearn to hack your own confidence. If you are heading out for a social event, take your good clothes to the gym, workout, shower and change there, then go straight to the event while you are feeling peppy and confident!
- probablybroken 10y agoIf you have the confidence to exercise in public, then it's probably already less of a problem for you.
- blackflame7000 10y agoJust remember that everyone at the gym thinks they are imperfect or else they wouldn't be there.
- glorpGlorp 10y ago"work out"?
- umanwizard 10y agoAre you asking what that term means? It means exercise in a gym. If not, I don't understand your comment.
- fjdlwlv 10y agoIt was confusion about whether "workout" is the same as "work out"
- umanwizard 10y agoTypically "workout" is a noun and "work out" is a verb, but people often use the two spellings interchangeably. In this case the poster was using "workout" as a verb, in which case yes it does mean the same thing as "work out".
- mrstone 10y agoHe's making a joke you ape
- sctb 10y agoPlease don't post like this here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
- glorpGlorp 10y agoBUT HE WAS RIGHT.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- sctb 10y ago
- throwaway805429 10y agoWallflowers aren't a single kind of flower.
- cryoshon 10y agojust chiming in here to say that 1. wallflowers do make friends and 2. being awkward is not, as the psychologist in the article claims, awesome. but 3. wallflowers make friends in spite of being awkward but finally 4. people with social anxiety don't live as full or enjoyable lives as everyone else, which sucks
- lapsock 10y agoSocial anxiety is not a thing that you either have or you don't. Everyone has social anxiety to varying degrees. To claim that people with social anxiety don't live as full or enjoyable lives as everyone else is just plain wrong. What is a "full and enjoyable life"? Is it having an average amount of social anxiety? But then you don't get to do all the cool shit that the people with very minimal social anxiety do. Is it having minimal social anxiety? But then you might end up doing things that you'll regret later i.e. having your silly picture/video go viral and then you might even end up developing social anxiety as a result of the entire world/country/city knowing your embarassing moment.
- watwut 10y agoAnxiety of any kind makes life less enjoyable then not having it. People with social anxiety needs friends, wants to belong in group and generally have normal social needs - except that they are afraid to do necessary steps for it to happen and end up isolated and unhappy. Social anxiety is not the same thing as being happy at home alone and thus not seeking wild parties, it is feeling uncomfortable in presence of people. Happy loners exist, but they don't have social anxiety. Not everyone has social anxiety just like not everyone who is a bit sad has depression. Social anxiety makes you perform badly on meetings, when talking with your kids teachers, when talking with colleges and in all kinds of situations where it actually matters. Not having social anxiety is not the same as not doing silly things while drunk. Plenty of extroverted highly social people don't do cool stupid things while drunk.
- rb808 10y agoBeing a wallflower isn't a great way to meet people agreed. but after a few decades I've come to realize that its a symptom rather than a cause - if you want to meet people you need to plan ahead - invite others to come with you, go to places you know people already - introduce yourself and chat to friends of friends not strangers. If you go to a place where you're by yourself and aren't talking to people you aren't a wallflower, you just didn't prepare.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- danenania 10y agoThis is very true--feeling comfortable and making friends in a roomful of complete strangers is difficult even for extroverts. Some people can pull it off but they are well outside the norm. Being a wallflower is a natural inclination for anyone in this scenario. It's not only shy people who feel this way.
- pasbesoin 10y agoAlso, look at other sources of stress in your life. As I've mentioned before, I had neighbors who made my life hell. As a result, I never invited people over. I was always dependent upon an invitation and going somewhere else. Additionally, and primarily, I was so stressed and not feeling good about myself, that I felt awkward in conversations. The questions about immediate life; well, my answers -- and I've always had trouble dissembling -- were not "good" and "cheerful." This all becomes more and more of a Catch 22. You're not doing well. Your social life dwindles. You feel worse for the lack of a social life and engagement. And, those social engagements you do have, can take on too much meaning. Too much import. And you choke. So... Look at sources of (negative) stress in your life. And minimize them where you can't eliminate them. This isn't some mantra to "feel better" (in the face of reality). This is an action plan. Not always an easy one, but where you can identify problems and -- hopefully -- solutions. My best wishes to everyone who faces this.
- Neliquat 10y agoFocing on your stress, avoiding inviting people over, it sounds like your problem is before your eyes. There will always be stress. How we see people depends mostly on how they handle it.
- unionjack22 10y agoWallflowers stand by the wall because they are afraid of rendering themselves vulnerable, which is perhaps the most important element in building meaningful relationships in life. I don't know what's the root cause of this fragility but I agree it's systemic issue, and one that can quickly morph into something nastier i.e Troll culture, Redpill misogyny, Alt-right hate, and ethnic/religious fundamentalism in minority communities.
- RichardHeart 10y agoWhat is the thread you claim links these things?
- morgante 10y agoA cycle of lack of empathy and love.
- glitcher 10y agoI for one have been a wallflower many, many times and I can safely say that for me personally there is absolutely no correlation between my shyness and any of the other attributes you or the parent commenter allude to. That's not to say that there isn't some truth to those sentiments, but I'm much more interested in evidence or at least a stronger theory behind the alleged correlations. As written, the original comment at face value is nothing more than one person's opinion based on, who knows what?
- morgante 10y agoI've been a wallflower too and definitely don't think it automatically puts you into the more dangerous direction. Rather, I think it sets up the potential to be susceptible to them. TRP, for example, does a great job of channeling the (understandable) anxiety and frustration of unloved young men into negativity and hate.
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- cJ0th 10y agoTo state the obvious: Of course you can only make friends when you talk to people. However, most people who want to make friends probably only want to engage in activities that have a moderate to high likelihood of producing friendships. Now, how many of the people the wallflowers aren't talking to do actually seek any new friends? For one thing, many people want to enjoy a given event with their friends (and only their friends) whom they've brought to the event. That's often the case at concerts or clubs, in my experience. For another thing, people today are highly mobile and - thanks to their smartphone - in constant contact with their "old" friends so that the set of people they really care about doesn't change much anymore after school. After classes at my uni, for example, many fellow students would drive up to 100km home to live with their partners or to hang out with pre-uni friends. Among the rest, "friendships" existed mostly for learning and partying and thus didn't evolve to something deeper.
- snarf21 10y agoSome people may prefer to have a few real, very close friends than 100 "friends" that they never talk to. Some people also like to go to events to just be out and about and not at home. I don't feel weird eating dinner or going to a movie alone. I'm there for me and am not out to "make new friends". It is a little like co-working space. Yeah, I could work at home but there is a lot more energy being at a location full of people being busy even if they aren't my "friends".
- cool-RR 10y agoRelevant username. (Sorry, I couldn't resist.)