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Cryptocurrencies are a brilliant scam. They are to the libertarian-ish programmer crowd what MLM pyramid schemes are to the working class: perfectly crafted to

Cryptocurrencies are a brilliant scam. They are to the libertarian-ish programmer crowd what MLM pyramid schemes are to the working class: perfectly crafted to exploit the particular tendencies of its target. I mean, just think about the properties of the typical software engineer who gets into these things: 1. They tend to have more disposable income, i.e., they're fat marks 2. The Dunning-Kruger effect means they think they're too smart to fall for a scam 3. Their libertarian attitude means they probably won't make a fuss once they realize they've been scammed, and just passively accept it instead of involving law enforcement 4. Because every one uses different code, any anecdotes about past scams can always be waved off with "This one is different" It's all so perfectly tuned to draw in an endless supply of suckers that I'm almost kicking myself for not thinking of it first.

pc86 10y ago
I take issue with your third point. Libertarianism does not in any way mean you won't avail yourself of law enforcement if you've been the victim of a crime. I'm not a cryptocurrency guy, but what exactly about them would someone involve law enforcement for?
- geofft 10y ago
  Law enforcement is funded by taxation, which is theft. If you avail yourself of law enforcement, you are benefiting yourself from the proceeds of crime for personal gain.
  - Bartweiss 10y ago
    That's an anarcho-capitalist stance, sure. But very few programmers are an-caps, compared to the number of libertarians. Most libertarians (and minarchists, and a lot of others) specifically accept basic law enforcement as a reasonable role of government. The whole "night watchman state" idea centers around defense, policing, and courts as legitimate government powers. (Also, this is backwards even to an-caps. The taxation was theft, but availing yourself of services purchased is reasonable compensation since no one else is permitted to sell legal services.)
    - geofft 10y ago
      Sure, but is e.g. law enforcement in America a legitimate government power? People on all corners of the political spectrum believe that America's police is entirely too powerful and too militarized and solving all the wrong problems. They believe that even if there exists some law enforcement that is a legitimate purpose of government, the thing America has is definitely not that. If I think there's a good chance that this specific law enforcement organization respond to the cryptocoin spammer with a SWAT team and a CFAA prosecution, is it still legitimate for me to ask that department for help? And if I'm trying to enforce laws against e.g. someone in another jurisdiction, I didn't pay for that. The funding for that police department was taken from people in that jurisdiction. I can see it being consistent to make use of services that my own tax dollars paid for, but is it legitimate to make use of services that other people's tax dollars paid for, without their consent?
- Analemma_ 10y ago
  geofft's answer is funnier, but I think the more likely answer is this: Realistically speaking, cryptocurrency-related crime is never going to stop being easy and profitable unless there is a massive increase in both a) government control over the internet and b) coordinated international law enforcement, since these crimes are usually international. Since libertarians typically oppose both, they are incentivized to make crypto-related crimes-- even when they're the victim-- seem like no big deal to avoid helping to fuel an outcry that might cause politicians to take action and bring about a) and b). Granted, that's all quite speculative, but empirically, I have seen quite a few people get robbed blind of their cryptocoins and be remarkably sanguine about it, and I'm struggling to come up with another explanation.
uncletammy 10y ago
I can't wait until I grow up and get the power to downvote comments like this which contribute nothing of value to the discussion. Your horse could not be more dead. $34 billion dollars and many of the biggest names in finance and technology seem to think there's a little more to the story.
- cloakandswagger 10y ago
  The original commenter belongs to a very persistent faction of people who openly mock and malign cryptocurrencies despite being completely unaffected by them My only theory to date is these are sour grapes type folks who are upset that they've missed the bus in terms of crypto's fantastic investment value. The only comfort these people get is jeering from the sidelines in hopes that an eventual collapse will prove them "right"
  - csydas 10y ago
    There may be a faction that thrives on the pleasure in misery of others and specifically those who follow cryptocurrencies, but it's not hard to have major doubts about Bitcoin given it's tumultuous history up to the given point. The coin itself has had a rollercoaster of a valuation, pock-marked by fairly well trusted bit coin operations that just grabbed the money and ran with it. The currency itself is beholden to a small group of dedicated miners and their whims, the fork has been looming over bitcoin for some time now, which is the only thing that seems to give any value to the other cryptocurrencies as if it forks it means a potential foothold for other services to get in. Cryptocurrencies are a real mess, and for a awhile there, the fad was to attach a new cryptocurrency to whatever service you wanted to try and be "the next big thing", and it's always been ridiculous. The idea of a decentralized currency isn't bad in and of itself, but there is a lot to laugh at in the current history of cryptocurrencies.
    - cloakandswagger 10y ago
      Shitting on emergent tech is completely antithetical to the ethos of the "hacker mindset". A real hacker would recognize these are the early days of a new technology with incredible potential. Its tech is disruptive enough to already grow a marketcap measured in billions, I don't know what is gained from harping on all the early failures.
nyolfen 10y ago
> It's all so perfectly tuned to draw in an endless supply of suckers that I'm almost kicking myself for not thinking of it first. well, clearly it's not too late to get in on the game ;)
Kinnard 10y ago
> Cryptocurrencies are a brilliant scam. Quite a bit too broad of a generalization.
celticninja 10y ago
Generalising all cryptocurrencies as a scam kind of shows up your lack of knowledge.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
mmjaa 10y ago
You may as well just be describing software, in general. This isn't a "crypto thing", yo. All software has such utility. You either care or you don't.
hectorr 10y ago
A lot of them are, for the reasons you point out. But they really are not that different than other financial instruments in kind, just in maturity. What does it mean to own a share of Snapchat, Facebook, or Google? You can't influence these companies, they don't pay dividends, so the value of a share is just whatever the mob wants to pay for it. Goes up on good news, down on bad. Bonds are even worse, that's just someone saying sure, I'll pay you back later. These things have law developed around them now, but didn't when they first emerged. It all depends on your risk profile. If you have high risk tolerance, and think that you can mitigate some risk with being ahead of the market in technical and/or business skills, there is no reason not to get involved in these.
max_ 10y ago
>Cryptocurrencies are a brilliant scam. They are to the libertarian-ish programmer crowd what MLM pyramid schemes are to the working class: perfectly crafted to exploit the particular tendencies of its target. How is this different from the way Twitter makes no profits but lists on the stock exchange? Or are startups also a scam?

pc86 10y ago

I take issue with your third point. Libertarianism does not in any way mean you won't avail yourself of law enforcement if you've been the victim of a crime. I'm not a cryptocurrency guy, but what exactly about them would someone involve law enforcement for?

geofft 10y ago
Law enforcement is funded by taxation, which is theft. If you avail yourself of law enforcement, you are benefiting yourself from the proceeds of crime for personal gain.
- Bartweiss 10y ago
  That's an anarcho-capitalist stance, sure. But very few programmers are an-caps, compared to the number of libertarians. Most libertarians (and minarchists, and a lot of others) specifically accept basic law enforcement as a reasonable role of government. The whole "night watchman state" idea centers around defense, policing, and courts as legitimate government powers. (Also, this is backwards even to an-caps. The taxation was theft, but availing yourself of services purchased is reasonable compensation since no one else is permitted to sell legal services.)
  - geofft 10y ago
    Sure, but is e.g. law enforcement in America a legitimate government power? People on all corners of the political spectrum believe that America's police is entirely too powerful and too militarized and solving all the wrong problems. They believe that even if there exists some law enforcement that is a legitimate purpose of government, the thing America has is definitely not that. If I think there's a good chance that this specific law enforcement organization respond to the cryptocoin spammer with a SWAT team and a CFAA prosecution, is it still legitimate for me to ask that department for help? And if I'm trying to enforce laws against e.g. someone in another jurisdiction, I didn't pay for that. The funding for that police department was taken from people in that jurisdiction. I can see it being consistent to make use of services that my own tax dollars paid for, but is it legitimate to make use of services that other people's tax dollars paid for, without their consent?
Analemma_ 10y ago
geofft's answer is funnier, but I think the more likely answer is this: Realistically speaking, cryptocurrency-related crime is never going to stop being easy and profitable unless there is a massive increase in both a) government control over the internet and b) coordinated international law enforcement, since these crimes are usually international. Since libertarians typically oppose both, they are incentivized to make crypto-related crimes-- even when they're the victim-- seem like no big deal to avoid helping to fuel an outcry that might cause politicians to take action and bring about a) and b). Granted, that's all quite speculative, but empirically, I have seen quite a few people get robbed blind of their cryptocoins and be remarkably sanguine about it, and I'm struggling to come up with another explanation.

uncletammy 10y ago

I can't wait until I grow up and get the power to downvote comments like this which contribute nothing of value to the discussion. Your horse could not be more dead. $34 billion dollars and many of the biggest names in finance and technology seem to think there's a little more to the story.

cloakandswagger 10y ago
The original commenter belongs to a very persistent faction of people who openly mock and malign cryptocurrencies despite being completely unaffected by them My only theory to date is these are sour grapes type folks who are upset that they've missed the bus in terms of crypto's fantastic investment value. The only comfort these people get is jeering from the sidelines in hopes that an eventual collapse will prove them "right"
- csydas 10y ago
  There may be a faction that thrives on the pleasure in misery of others and specifically those who follow cryptocurrencies, but it's not hard to have major doubts about Bitcoin given it's tumultuous history up to the given point. The coin itself has had a rollercoaster of a valuation, pock-marked by fairly well trusted bit coin operations that just grabbed the money and ran with it. The currency itself is beholden to a small group of dedicated miners and their whims, the fork has been looming over bitcoin for some time now, which is the only thing that seems to give any value to the other cryptocurrencies as if it forks it means a potential foothold for other services to get in. Cryptocurrencies are a real mess, and for a awhile there, the fad was to attach a new cryptocurrency to whatever service you wanted to try and be "the next big thing", and it's always been ridiculous. The idea of a decentralized currency isn't bad in and of itself, but there is a lot to laugh at in the current history of cryptocurrencies.
  - cloakandswagger 10y ago
    Shitting on emergent tech is completely antithetical to the ethos of the "hacker mindset". A real hacker would recognize these are the early days of a new technology with incredible potential. Its tech is disruptive enough to already grow a marketcap measured in billions, I don't know what is gained from harping on all the early failures.

nyolfen 10y ago

> It's all so perfectly tuned to draw in an endless supply of suckers that I'm almost kicking myself for not thinking of it first. well, clearly it's not too late to get in on the game ;)

Kinnard 10y ago

> Cryptocurrencies are a brilliant scam. Quite a bit too broad of a generalization.

celticninja 10y ago

Generalising all cryptocurrencies as a scam kind of shows up your lack of knowledge.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

mmjaa 10y ago

You may as well just be describing software, in general. This isn't a "crypto thing", yo. All software has such utility. You either care or you don't.

hectorr 10y ago

A lot of them are, for the reasons you point out. But they really are not that different than other financial instruments in kind, just in maturity. What does it mean to own a share of Snapchat, Facebook, or Google? You can't influence these companies, they don't pay dividends, so the value of a share is just whatever the mob wants to pay for it. Goes up on good news, down on bad. Bonds are even worse, that's just someone saying sure, I'll pay you back later. These things have law developed around them now, but didn't when they first emerged. It all depends on your risk profile. If you have high risk tolerance, and think that you can mitigate some risk with being ahead of the market in technical and/or business skills, there is no reason not to get involved in these.

max_ 10y ago

>Cryptocurrencies are a brilliant scam. They are to the libertarian-ish programmer crowd what MLM pyramid schemes are to the working class: perfectly crafted to exploit the particular tendencies of its target. How is this different from the way Twitter makes no profits but lists on the stock exchange? Or are startups also a scam?