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El Salvador bans metal mining in world first
- ShannonAlther 9y agoThis has apparently been in the works for a while[0] in response to a ridiculous percentage of El Salvador's fresh water being poisoned by mining runoff. Good for them, this looks like it solves a lot of problems. Does anyone know what sort of impact this will have on their economy? [0]https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2017/mar/30/el-salvador-makes-history-first-nation-to-impose-blanket-ban-on-metal-mining https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2017/mar/30/e...
- otto_ortega 9y ago> Does anyone know what sort of impact this will have on their economy? Pretty much zero. I live in El Salvador. The economy is fucked up since long time ago, and metal mining was unlikely to help in any way, specially when most of the profit derived from it was going to leave the country, and the percentage that would remain here was going to end up in the hands of corrupt government officials, in the form of bribes or funding for lobbying.
- jbreckmckye 9y agoProbably less impact than poisoning their populace.
- r00fus 9y agoIt'll be interesting to see how fast banning the pollution results in water quality changes.
- jacquesm 9y agoOr how fast massive sudden un-employment results in riots. Fast change like this is bound to have side-effects. > But mining accounts for a minimal portion of their economies and jobs, a recent study by various NGOs showed. Which of course is great when you're sitting in your NGO provided air-conditioned office. But a few tens of thousands of miners might disagree with the definition of 'minimal'. For them it likely was all of their income. I'm all for change like this but I would prefer a more gradual approach. Such as 'no new people are allowed to be hired for mining' or other more or less automatic mechanisms.
- azernik 9y agoFTA: "But mining accounts for a minimal portion of their economies and jobs, a recent study by various NGOs showed."
- jacquesm 9y agoYes, sorry I was still editing that. This is obviously the NGO's point of view which is different from the miners point of view.
- azernik 9y agoSure, the miners are going to be unhappy. But "massive" is not a subjective judgment; I trust the NGOs on the numbers, and if so the miners are not a large enough population that their firing is a threat to social order.
- aylmao 9y agoPassing a law like this is no small feat; it probably had lots of support from the population countering all the corporate pressure against it. Upon some research, seems like even the catholic church was in favour [1], which is what gave it the final push. I doubt this will cause problems to the level of starting riots; rioting against the government is one thing, but having your church and larger community against your cause definitely makes it lose momentum. [1] http://www.bbc.com/mundo/noticias-america-latina-39451498 http://www.bbc.com/mundo/noticias-america-latina-39451498
- vizeroth 9y agoThough El Salvador is no stranger to having popular governments overthrown by corporate interests.
- kpil 9y agoIt seems to be a bad deal to get a few thousand jobs at the cost of severe damage to the environment and public health, while all the money is shifted out of the country.
- softrock 9y agoLikely not that fast. Waste piles and water flowing out of abandoned mines will continue to mess up water for many years after a mine closes.
- EGreg 9y agoHow dare El Salvador try to use facts to claim that these foreign companies mining their resources don't help their communities but only pollute it! The anarcho capitalist solution is that the country should privatize their water supply so that outside companies can then legally buy up the lakes and pollute as much as they want! After all the companies will have paid people for it - the people only would have to live there :)
- jacquesm 9y ago> The anarcho capitalist solution is that the country should privatize their water supply so that outside companies can then legally buy up the lakes and pollute as much as they want! That's roughly what has been happening in several other Latin American countries. Bechtel being the usual suspect, they specialize at that kind of trick hand-in-hand with the World Bank.
- DaiPlusPlus 9y agoMy father worked as a chemical process engineer for Bechtel stationed in a 3rd world country (we all lived there with him too) working on the public-works water treatment system for the nation's capital - from what I can tell, Bechtel did go in with honest intentions - but were stalled by local corruption and lack of political willpower.
- jacquesm 9y agoHow about Bolivia? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cochabamba_Water_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cochabamba_Water_War "The World Bank said that "poor governments are often too plagued by local corruption and too ill equipped to, the World Bank stated that "no subsidies should be given to ameliorate the increase in water tariffs in Cochabamba". The New Yorker reported on the World Bank's motives, "Most of the poorest neighborhoods were not hooked up to the network, so state subsidies to the water utility went mainly to industries and middle-class neighborhoods; the poor paid far more for water of dubious purity from trucks and handcarts. In the World Bank's view, it was a city that was crying out for water privatization." That sounds eerily like your comment.
- lightedman 9y agoThis becomes interesting. Many gemstones are also essentially metal ores. I wonder if this will affect gem and mineral mining/collecting in El Salvador, which does have a decent reputation in the mineral/gem/lapidary circle.
- maguirre 9y agoreally? I am from El Salvador and was completely unaware of this
- lightedman 9y agoAll that volcanic activity makes for rich, rich gem and mineral deposits, of igneous and metamorphic types.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- ridgeguy 9y agoTo the extent that gem finds are incident to bulk metal mining operations, it could decrease gem yield. But I'm not sure what the gems would be. Stories on El Salvador's mining ban emphasize gold mining. I'm not sure what gems are found in coincidence with gold, except maybe quartz crystals in hydrothermal gold deposits. Silver, copper, lead, zinc and titanium seem to be the other metals mined in El Salvador. Although there are collectable minerals associated with some of these (copper->azurite, malachite; lead->galena crystals), I can't immediately think of gemstones that occur in these metallic ores.
- lightedman 9y agoRose quartz is a primary ore of Titanium. Asterated rose quartz comes from this area. If you have gold you likely have other heavy metals like iron in the area, which can lead to garnets. The calcium content in the area lends itself to making Epidote. Sphalerite is the primary ore of Zinc and also produces quite impressive gems. Then you'll have volcanic gem rock in the area, such as multi-colored obsidian.
- partycoder 9y agoThis is interesting. Blocking access to a resource would redirect efforts towards other activities. Countries with abundance of resources or no restrictions to harvest them are not always more prosperous, as explained by the concept "resource course": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_curse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_curse
- aaron695 9y agoHave they lost the plot? Has HN lost the plot in the comments supporting this. Why not just ban science? We need metals to live and prosper. If it was really that minimal as per 'NGO' advise then the pollution would be minimal. Why not just make companies pay fines if they polute? The government obviously doesn't kowtow to them? Perhaps if their people weren't so poor you could excuse banning things like gold and diamond. But this (as the article tells it, I doubt it's close to the full story) is like going back to the middle ages.
- jacquesm 9y agoSome of the pollution is Mercury, they list the degree of pollution as 1000x permissible maxima when it comes to heavy metal pollution of that water.
- vixen99 9y agoThis is appalling but who are 'they'? As we know, mercury is a potent neurotoxin. We're justly concerned about this but but on the other hand Americans are told that mercury amalgam is perfectly safe when permanently lodged a few centimeters from the brain. American Dental Association: "Dental amalgam is considered a safe, affordable and durable material that has been used to restore the teeth of more than 100 million Americans. It contains a mixture of metals such as silver, copper and tin, in addition to mercury, which binds these components into a hard, stable and safe substance. Dental amalgam has been studied and reviewed extensively, and has established a record of safety and effectiveness.". So, are Denmark, Sweden and Norway ill-informed for banning it for medical and environmental reasons? My biochemistry tells me they're not. https://www.fda.gov/downloads/Adviso...e/DentalProductsPanel/UCM236379.pdf https://www.fda.gov/downloads/Adviso...e/DentalProductsPanel...
- powera 9y ago#globalization El Salvador is a small country with no pretenses of being self-sufficient. It doesn't matter how silly the local laws are.
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- sebleon 9y agoAt first glance, I think this measure makes a lot of sense - profits from mines mostly leave the country. That being said, I'd expect this will lead to a surge in illegal mining operations, which will likely be a lot more environmentally hazardous.
- badosu 9y agoI don't understand why you'd be downvoted, this is feasible: see the illegal sand mining operations in India for instance [0]. [0]: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/01/magazine/sand-mining-india-how-to-steal-a-river.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/01/magazine/sand-mining-indi...
- thatcat 9y agoSome people might see it as sort of a defeatist stance to take. Is it harder to detect illegal mine or to regulate all mining? Seems they would be easy to find from satallite images.
- badosu 9y agoWouldn't a stance be to use the argument above to support a set of (in)actions? The argument by itself is not moot, and the writer did not explicitly support an agenda.
- thatcat 9y agoIt implies (correctly) that the legislation will lead to more problems. That the comment doesn't suggest action is the form of defeatism I was refering to. Defeatists don't normally call for inaction they just present all the problems that action leads to promote inaction.
- badosu 9y agoI understand what you mean, but I think you're putting more meaning to it than it has. > Defeatists don't normally call for inaction they just present all the problems that action leads to promote inaction. Suppose someone called for prohibition again as an action to reduce the incidence of alcohol-related car accidents and domestic abuse. You have the information that this leads to a lot of money flowing into the hands of criminals. How is stating that defeatism?
- Proven 9y agoIdiots
- cmrdporcupine 9y agoA lot of Canadian mining companies doing really dirty work in Central America. Makes me ashamed to be Canadian. Glad to see El Salvador assert their autonomy.
- ced 9y agoNot that I doubt it - heard similar tales in Chile - but do you have specific events in mind?
- astronautjones 9y agoThank you for the rare upvoted HN comment that makes me optimistic about humans
- specialist 9y agoAges ago, a buddy predicted we'd eventually just mine our own trash for precious metals. As opposed to recycling, I suppose. Call it "extreme recycling". I wonder how close we are to that future.
- cardamomo 9y agoThis is an important element of one of my favorite YA novels from my youth, The Ear, the Eye, and the Arm. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/633270.The_Ear_the_Eye_and_the_Arm https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/633270.The_Ear_the_Eye_a...
- gregpilling 9y agoWe have been here for years. I knew a guy in Canada in the 90s who was getting gold out of electronics, and my facotry in Tucson AZ had a big operation down the street that exclusively employed ex cons to remove precious metals from discarded electronics.
- terminado 9y agoNow I think there are probably way many more rare earths. Like neodymium from headphones and the odd USB device tossed directly into the garbage. Gold is an obvious target, but there are probably larger quantities of other valuable metals to be had from recently accumulated trash.
- nathancahill 9y agoVisit a dump in any 3rd-world country. Mining garbage dumps already happens, and it is indeed extreme recycling. Absolutely every last bit of value is extracted from the trash. There are several good documentaries about this, will post links once back on desktop.
- parshimers 9y agoIt's a reality. The nickel smelting operation in Norilsk, Russia is so polluting that you can mine the topsoil downwind of the smelter feasibly: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/12/world/europe/12norilsk.html?ref=world http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/12/world/europe/12norilsk.htm...
- djsumdog 9y agoI suspect their head of state will die in a plane crash within a year. Either that or there will be a military coupe. Double your bets if any of those shut down were American mining companies. And before you start saying I should take off my tin foil hat, look up the 1973 coupe in Chile, the Iranian Contras, United Fruit and the documentary Confessions of an Economic Hitman. I hope El Salvador keeps mining banned. I really do. But the track record is that NATO countries tend to "fix" things when their interests are threatened.
- chis 9y agoThe history is accurate and maybe that would've happened 20 years ago. But I wonder if globalization + the internet have ended these secret coups. I really can't imagine a world in which the CIA overthrows an entire government without anyone leaking it or noticing. I guess it's possible that the U.S. doesn't care about the backlash, but it wouldn't be a popular move.
- astronautjones 9y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_of_Dilma_Rousseff https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_of_Dilma_Rousseff
- rangibaby 9y agoI dont think so. See: Color revolutions and Arab spring.
- zghst 9y agoToo bad we (U.S.) are a a large economy, the only way we could survive and implement this policy is if we get to space and get good at mining asteroids.
- bingomad123 9y agoNow let us hope all countries follow the suite and ban all metal mining right away.
- taneq 9y agoSo you're going to lead the way by stopping using any metal products, right? Including your computer?
- alexvoda 9y agoTo such a fallacious reply the recent news of Apple deciding to only use recycled materials should be enough of a response I think.
- taneq 9y agoYou're asserting that the human race has mined all the metals that we'll ever need. Do you really think that's a reasonable position?
- bingomad123 9y agoThe comment was sarcasm obviously directed towards people who are hailing this move.
- khana 9y agoGood.
- zenkat 9y agoIn _Collapse_, Jared Diamond makes the argument that almost all modern mining of metals would be economically unprofitable if all the negative externalities (i.e., cleanup costs) were taken into account.
- driverdan 9y agoI assume there's nuance to that you left out. Metal demand is inelastic. Prices would go up, demand would go down, but there would still be demand.
- Arizhel 9y agoThe problem here is that our technological society needs metals to operate. But getting those metals is making a big mess in less-developed places like this, for the benefit of the more-developed places. So, the solution is simple: mine asteroids. No one cares about pollution in space.