14 ms·

Ask HN: Why do no other laptop manufacturers get it?

• jph 16y ago
  The Thinkpad T60p is superb. I have an excellent screen that is 1600x1200 and large enough to run a 2x2 grid of SSH sessions. And the ultrabay is great for a second drive, second battery, or DVD. Very highly recommended.
  • whakojacko 16y ago
    My T60p's screen died (sob Im gonna miss that 1600x1200 IPS) and I recently replaced it with a new 15" MBP and find it better in almost every way except the screen (even with 1680x1050, its not same quality) and the excellent Lenovo/IBM CS where I now have to deal with the joke that is Applecare.
• kashif 16y ago
  13 Inch Dell XPS suck, I have one. It gets too hot. I don't like the poorly finished silver on the black. The screen is too glossy. I hugely recommend the Lenevo X200. Awesome build quality.
• sandGorgon 16y ago
  The good laptops (often classified as gaming laptops) are made by ODMs (like Sager, Clevo and MSI) and resold by small boutique laptop sellers powernotebooks, xoticpc, etc are the ones with good reputation on notebookforums. Typically these sellers allow you to customize down to the thermal compound on the processors. The VoodooPC notebooks a.k.a HP Envy is quite good too - check out the 16GB RAM capacity for future-proofing.
• gfunk911 16y ago
  Agreed. There are two problems that compound on each other but are somewhat distinct 1. Excessive models. They make this look work than it is by essentially having 2-4 customizations of the same model and presenting them as different models. 2. Confusing attempts to segment. Having the first step on the website be choosing which "segment" you want confuses the user. I'll pick a segment, then be unsure if I'm not seeing models that I'd like to see. Savvy consumers assume that "Home" mean "crummy," but "Business" isn't exactly right either.
  • napierzaza 16y ago
    I think these companies thrive with a confusing market. If you can easily compare two products then the purchase is muddied. I've seen this often with different grocery store products in regards to volumes and masses on sale for fungible items. I think it's best to have confusing figures and specs when you have all these manufacturers who are really trying to produce the cheapest of something (in this case PCs or cellphones). You put the money and the marketing in maybe one overworked detail (big screen, big HDD, fast video card) and then cheap out on everything else. So if they want a certain user to buy their product, they emphasize what they think that user wants.
    • perplexes 16y ago
      > I think these companies thrive with a confusing market I don't understand why this is so common, that confusing and ultimately making people unhappy is somehow good for business. Does it actually work this way? I mean, it seems Apple is doing okay and makes customers generally very happy with their products - are they the only exception?
      • pyre 16y ago
        I think that the issue is that Apple spends the time to make quality products, while other manufacturers might just spend the time to make a product that is 'just good enough.' If someone were to be able to do direct comparisons between a 'good enough' and a 'great' product, they wouldn't even think twice about the 'good enough' product.
• follower 16y ago
  That and the whole design issue. I want to buy a laptop that looks nice, so sue me. Actually I had a discussion about this very topic today with someone. Any non-Apple laptop suggestions that don't look ugly and will run some *nix variation?
  • jpdbaugh 16y ago
    Used MacBook Pro. Seriously, they are the best laptops around right now and if you buy used they will cost a usual amount of money.
  • buddycasino 16y ago
    Hell yeah! While there are some nice looking Notebooks, PC cases are especially awful. What puzzles me is that this is even true for 300$+ aluminium pc cases specificaly made to please the design-sensitive crowd (e.g. Lian Li). It seems all respectable designers doing computer cases work at Apple. I believe there is a huge market waiting to be served, so: get rich quick! Make beautiful pc cases for a reasonable price so I can finally buy one!
    • gxti 16y ago
      I know what you mean, I have one of Lian Li's "mini fridge" cases because it has a ludicrous number of HD bays. But I also have an Antec p182, and it's frickin awesome: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129061 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129... (slightly newer model)
  • turtle4 16y ago
    Surprisingly, one of the best looking laptop designs I've seen in a while was one by Nokia, of all people. Unfortunately, it is a Netbook, and has all of the associated issues, and I have no idea about its linux support. But from a design aspect, it looks nice. http://www.nokiausa.com/find-products/mini-laptops/nokia-booklet-3g http://www.nokiausa.com/find-products/mini-laptops/nokia-boo... Now, if only we could locate a more powerful alternative.
    • 16y ago
• indy 16y ago
  Totally agree, it's almost as if the HP, Dell and Sony websites are intentionally designed to drive any potential customers to Apple.
• bmj 16y ago
  Apple offers a rather limited range of laptops. Other manufacturers are attempting to offer a greater range of options for all consumers (and consider for companies like HP and Dell, their largest customers are corporations). The codes allow for easier differentiation in a given product line. That said, Dell seems to have the sanest conventions, with HP/Compaq offer nothing more than product codes.
  • rythie 16y ago
    I think Apple does that on purpose, they never seem to have more than about 3 choices for their devices (the paradox of choice? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Paradox_of_Choice http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Paradox_of_Choice) 2 sizes of iPod Nanos (you also pick the color) 3 sizes of iPod touches 3 sizes of iPhones (+ pick color) 3 15inch MacBook pros (+ 2 13inch and 1x 17inch) It seems once you have made some basic choices like screen size or color you are down to 3 choices fairly spaced in price which equate to small, medium or large.
  • SilianRail 16y ago
    And having too many options is what is killing these companies compared to Apple. Quite frankly people don't care that you have XYZ mobo processor or graphics card inside. They just want the dam thing to work. "Tyranny of Choice" at its best.
    • rimantas 16y ago
      Wasn't that the lesson Apple learned the hard way? IIRC one of the first thing Jobs did on his return to Apple was to trim the product line.
      • whogivesashirt 16y ago
        Yep. Pre-Jobs, the Apple offerings were as muddled as the PC examples given above, especially with the introduction of the PPC boxes, which were all assigned names like 7200/75 or 7215/90. Steve did away with all of these and offered only four core products (iBook, PowerBook, G-series and iMac) until the intro of the Cube, which nobody remembers, and the iPod, which nobody can forget. :)
• mburney 16y ago
  I also agree, but I have a feeling that at some point in the 90's when "tech geek" stuff was cool, the model numbers actually helped their marketing.
• JoachimSchipper 16y ago
  I bought a Thinkpad not too long ago. Thinkpads have a good reputation, their new cheap(-ish) "SL" models are very affordable, and their website makes sense (just select a few things you want and they'll present you with a sensible list of options). Of course, every country seems to have their own range of models, so Lenovo is not free of suck either.
  • naner 16y ago
    > I bought a Thinkpad not too long ago. Thinkpads have a good reputation, their new cheap(-ish) "SL" models are very affordable, and their website makes sense I did, too! Only I didn't realize that the SL models are basically plain black ideapads. It is a good laptop, but it is not a thinkpad. :/
  • dcminter 16y ago
    I think the SL models are dangerously diluting the brand - the standard Thinkpad keyboard and touchpoint is a powerful selling point. Plus I can't readily get my hands on a Thinkpad (even an SL) to try it out. I want to upgrade my laptops at the moment and would dearly love to walk into the equivalent of the Apple store, sit down, and try out each of the models that I'm interested in - but in London there are only a handful of retailers that stock Thinkpads, fewer that are up-to-date with the models that they sell, and none that I know of that have demo machines in store for any significant fraction of the range. So if I want to buy one I essentially have to be willing to accept delivery (a pain when I can't predict where I'll be on any given day), and willing to risk buying a machine that I've never touched. If I decide to accept a Mac I can check out all of the options at the store over on Regent St any time until the late-ish evening. Lenovo are just not geared up to retail customers - that might not be an issue at the moment, but I can't help but think that today's retail customers are tomorrows corporate buyers.
    • jbarham 16y ago
      I've found the same thing in California. The only place I've seen a Thinkpad in the wild is at Fry's or (once) at the Microsoft store. Certainly never at Best Buy. But I suspect that the real customers for Thinkpads are corporate IT purchase managers as probably most Thinkpad users have their machines bought for them by their employers.
• dreadlabs 16y ago
  Well i think HP are doing very well with their HP Envy line. I'm waiting to get myself an HP Envy 17. Its a main competitor to the macbook pro line but at a much better price.
• napierzaza 16y ago
  Here here. The same for the iPhone. It's better this year because of the features, it's tiered because of storage space! That simple. When I first got a cell phone I was pretty frustrated. There wasn't even any sort of good, better, better still. One phone had a camera, one could play music, another had some other shitty feature. What the hell? It seemed to me that a lot of those options could somehow be bundled together? I was never happy with any of the choices I made. I think the philosophies of these companies is just to make a new model to "capture" a certain market sector they identified. So if they identified many different niches then that's what they build. Not to mention the fact that they keep old models around for years at lower and lower prices. Why discontinue it if they were able to lower the cost so much that they can maybe sell more? Kind of stupid.
• stcredzero 16y ago
  The 17" Dell XPS were just as good in terms of design as Apple, just with different goals. They are also fairly easy to maintain. I saved money by buying the "multimedia" model Inspiron with the same chassis. (And yes, I've replaced the keyboard and screen on my Dell. Straightforward and quick operations. I also own a Macbook, and let me tell you, the take apart is a lot more complicated.) You will get good value, solid build, and maintainability at the expense of aesthetics and portability. EDIT: FWIW, Dell have had a history of using standard parts, so Linux compatibility has been very high as well.
  • pragmatic 16y ago
    Interesting. Any other brands/models that have this modular design? I bought a Gateway (super cheap for the features) for work/gaming. Unfortunately, the build quality sucks. I should have known better, but I thought I was getting a bargain. I must say the HP's that dayjob hands out are pretty darn tough, but also super expensive.
    • jarek 16y ago
      I don't know about the other manufacturers, but I'm ready to sing praises for Thinkpads here. Every single part inside has a part number and pretty much all of these parts are orderable online. Many are interchangeable between models, though the information on that can be a bit difficult to find. There are PDF service manuals that describe in detail how to completely strip down the machine piece by piece available for pretty much every single model since at least ten years ago if you know where to look (Thinkwiki). It's not really the Apple way, but it's pretty awesome if you're the type of person who's into lots and lots of information about everything.
• leftnode 16y ago
  It's brand reinforcement. Notice, each time you typed those, you typed the name of the manufacturer. Not saying it's a better approach than the Macbook, but high end car manufacturers do it too. It's why Lexus and Mercedes have cars named like LS400, S500, etc. You have to say the brand name with each model, reinforcing the brand.
  • enjo 16y ago
    Just as apple does with Mac*....In their case "Mac" IS the brand.
    • leftnode 16y ago
      Good point, they were just a bit more creative in their method of brand reinforcement.
  • piranha 16y ago
    It's easy to understand which car you're talking about when you say S500 or E320 or 325xi.
    • illumin8 16y ago
      Not for people that aren't car geeks. I know a 325xi is a BMW, but if you asked the general public which manufacturer makes a 325xi it would probably be less than 50% accurate.
      • simonk 16y ago
        But when comparing different car companies you usually say BMW 325xi. The 325xi stands for something. Its a 3 series, which isn't as nice as the 5 series. The xi is the type of car it is. When looking for a car and you ask someone they can actually tell you what it is. When people ask me if the Compaq Presario CQ61-406SA is any good, I have no idea what it even is.
        • 16y ago
• nihilocrat 16y ago
  I have an idea about model numbers involving gross overgeneralization: Asian cultures have a fetish for numbers. When working with a Korean company in the past, they would list their questions/answers in email in numbered lists; never bulleted or simply segmented in paragraphs, always numbered. In Mandarin, not only are the months simply numbered (it's not "June", it's "Month 6"), but extended family get the same treatment ("13th Aunt"). Goku and Vegeta (yeah, great example) keep blathering about numbered Power Levels. Like I said, overgeneralization, but it's just a thought. As for the original question; as most people say, the other laptop manufacturers provide a wider set of choices, and they offer them at prices people can actually afford.
  • hugh3 16y ago
    Out of curiosity, how does the numbering system for aunts work? I'd love to be able to assign integers to my aunts.
    • Splines 16y ago
      Not a native speaker, but how I refer to my Aunts/Uncles in Chinese is by referring to them in birth order in their family. E.g., "1st Aunt" is the first sister born in my mom's family. IIRC, her husband gets a similar moniker (i.e., Husband of 1st Aunt).
      • hugh3 16y ago
        But what if your father had a sister who was older than your mother's oldest sister? Or does Chinese use different words for "mother's sister" and "father's sister"?
        • comatose51 16y ago
          Yes Chinese use different words for the two sides of the family. Also, depending on which part of China you're from, first cousins whose fathers are brothers (thus having the same surnames) would refer to each other as brothers and sisters. That part is rather confusing sometimes but otherwise Chinese is very precise in enumerating your relationships.
• e40 16y ago
  Not just model #'s. Try and find a good and reliable 1900x1080 laptop. I tried and ended up getting a MacBook Pro. I've used a lot of laptops over the years (all Windows based), none of which were Macs. The build quality of this thing is amazing. Yes, it was expensive. Was it worth it? I think it's easily 2x better than the ASUS I almost bought--ASUS and Sony were the ones that had 1900x1080 or higher res. I never buy Sony because of the bad experiences I've had with their hardware. The ASUS got too many bad reviews on New Egg... hence the Mac purchase. No wonder everyone wants a Mac laptop. They are simply the best. And, I use Linux and Windows mainly, though I have a Mac mini as a media center. I own an Android phone. I am in no way a fanboy.
  • eli 16y ago
    Thinkpad t510 does 1900x1080 if you get the upgraded video card
    • Symmetry 16y ago
      And I know at least two people using linux on their T510 laptops so I can tell you that that works.
    • nailer 16y ago
      > 1900x1080 1900? 20 horizontal pixels short of full HD? Why?
      • eli 16y ago
        My guess is that they used to be 1900x1200, but someone got the clever idea that they could save a few bucks and market it as HD (it does have the number 1080 in it!) at the same time.
  • zandorg 16y ago
    Someone on Hacker News told me about the Dell Precision M70 a few months ago. It's 1920x1200 15.4" screen. Cost me the equivalent of $300 (though it is second hand off Ebay).
• masklinn 16y ago
  Panasonic does it nicely with it's "Business Rugged" toughbooks (though they're in the same range as Apple's stuff in the price/perfs ratio): * F-series for the high-rugged 14' high mobility (Qualcomm Gobi option) * T-series for the lightweight, 12", touchscreen * W-series for the more consumer oriented with DVD drive * The new C-series for the tablet convertible Series letter comes with a digit (the generation) increased by one each time (F7, F8, F9). There, done.
• lhorie 16y ago
  They are geeks. Geeks like customization and will talk about gadget specs for hours. If one really cares about specs, then I'd argue the countless codes make it easier to shop among the hundreds of selections. You can quickly figure out what is "technologically superior", without derailing into an Mac-vs-PC sort of debate. Most normal people just want a simple computer that works (tm). For them, a Macbooks is probably just fine. Anything else is probably equally ok too.
  • orangecat 16y ago
    As a geek I'd like to be able to easily compare specs across a manufacturer's product line, and for some reason only Apple does this. Meanwhile Dell has taken to hiding the resolution of their displays, which is somewhat understandable since they're often the horrible 1366x768 at 15" or 1600x900 at 17". (Apple also gets credit for resisting the 16x9 trend for laptop screens. Note to everyone else: almost all documents are taller than they are wide).
    • lhorie 16y ago
      Manufacturers generally do have very detailed spec pages for their products (e.g. http://accessories.dell.com/sna/products/Displays/productdetail.aspx?c=ca&l=en&s=dhs&cs=cadhs1&sku=320-7825 http://accessories.dell.com/sna/products/Displays/productdet...) Are you talking about side-by-side comparison pages? I'd imagine that if you only have so many products, having a page like this (http://www.apple.com/mac/whichmacbook/compare.html http://www.apple.com/mac/whichmacbook/compare.html) is pretty much a no-brainer, but I'm not sure this would work so well when you're a manufacturer with several dozens offerings, dealing with people that care about what type of RAM they're getting, or what particular video card gives the most performance for their specific (limited) budgets.
      • silencio 16y ago
        But Apple gives you that level of customization once you select a general size and tier of computer type based on your needs and price - and they don't have to segment a single model as though they were all totally separate models to meet the needs of multiple audiences, cause it's pretty obvious the distinctions between all their models. No one model of 15" MacBook Pro but rather fifty different configurations of a 15" MBP with 2-8GB RAM, half a dozen HDD capacities, a couple of SSD options, a few more video cards....."oh the 8gb ram+SSD option is great for you, Pro User!" vs "As a casual home user, you should get this Super Basic Model!" where they're both basically the same except one's got more ram, a slightly better processor, and an SSD. The really odd thing is that all these manufacturers like Dell let you further customize the laptop you're looking at once you actually manage to find one you want. But they don't make it easy to figure out what exactly you're getting in the very beginning, and the process to get started has never been less convoluted as far as I can remember. I may be a geek, but that doesn't mean I have half an hour to dig through ten thousand useless configurations when all I want to start with is a very, very, very basic laptop and just customize it a bit. I very much like the way Apple makes it so braindead easy (and a lot cleaner). All I went was "I want a mid-size display", "I want a half decent spec" and ended up with a mid-2009 midrange 15" MBP with my own SSD installed. Perfect. The whole purchase took less time than looking for the right "audience" I fit into to get the best models+prices on other sites.
• S_A_P 16y ago
  Furthermore, why is it that until recently you could not get a non-apple laptop that looked like they actually tried to design the case to be even remotely aesthetically pleasing. The smooth contours of my macbook pro totally outclass winbooks in this aspect. The Dell Adamo series is really the first non apple product Ive seen that comes close, but its still not there.
  • bitwize 16y ago
    Agreed, virtually all modern notebooks are nasty and blingy, not to mention coated in gloss that seems custom-formulated to maximize fingerprint appearance. The best looking winbook I've seen in a while was a deliberate MacBook Air clone by MSI. It was so well done as to be indistinguishable from the real thing at a distance of five meters or more.
    • rradu 16y ago
      I really don't understand glossy screens. I can't work anywhere with a light source behind me. Why have they overtaken the PC laptop market so much?
      • wmf 16y ago
        Higher contrast ratio.
      • bitwize 16y ago
        Because laptop buyers, like many apes, are attracted to shiny things. (What? H. sapiens is a species of great ape.)
• dalore 16y ago
  I like my indie laptop manufacturer: http://www.rockdirect.com/notebooks.php http://www.rockdirect.com/notebooks.php 2 models, no confusion. And it's just upgrades on those models as in you customize those how you want it.
• danieldon 16y ago
  There's a class of people who just don't get that this is an issue. You can see it in the comments here. These model numbers are an opaque code that needs to be deciphered. Just because you happen to have learned how to decipher them doesn't make them any less opaque and cryptic.
  • markkanof 16y ago
    Your comment is spot on. I am really amazed at some of the comments here that are attempting to explain in one way or another that all companies except Apple need to have dozens of different models. It's great to offer the consumer choice, but that's not really what is happening here. These companies are offering confusion. Apple also offers choice, but it's a choice between only three models and a few different configuration options. I could see other companies having maybe six or seven models and still being able to have something for pretty much any type of customer. I was recently looking through the laptop section of ASUS's web site. I would estimate that they must have somewhere around 100 different models. Then they further compound the problem by making it hard to navigate between the pages for the different models. I just totally gave up. It seems like they might make some nice stuff, but figuring out which one is right for me is way too much effort.
• gte910h 16y ago
  Fujitsu makes great ones: http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=fujitsu+laptops http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&#3...
• secos 16y ago
  One of the reasons for model # segmentation amongst the laptops sold in retail stores: price competition offers ie: "If you find this model cheaper somewhere else in the next 14 days and we'll beat the price"
• rit 16y ago
  The Sony Vaio Z series is a freaking awesome device. A friend got one recently and it's making me rethink getting another mac for my next laptop: http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&categoryId=8198552921644570897 http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryD... Core i7, 8 gigs of ram, I think he's got THREE SSD drives in Raid 0 in there ( I know you can buy outright with a 2 ssd raid 0 config but I found an engadget article referencing QUAD ssd - http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/19/sony-vaio-z-brings-quad-ssd-drive-and-dynamic-graphics-switching/ http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/19/sony-vaio-z-brings-quad-s...). It's a 13" machine and weighs 3 pounds. It doesn't run Mac OS but I find myself needing Linux more often these days than Mac. It's hard to say no to a beautiful piece of hardware like that. To be fair though - nothing beats walking into the Apple Store when my macbook breaks and having them do an overnight repair.
  • sandGorgon 16y ago
    isnt sony the one that deliberately disables vt-x extensions ? http://levicki.net/articles/tips/2009/02/20/HOWTO_Enable_Intel_VT_on_Sony_VAIO_notebook_with_AMI_Aptio_EFI_BIOS.php http://levicki.net/articles/tips/2009/02/20/HOWTO_Enable_Int...
  • akkartik 16y ago
    But you still end up paying for a windows license? Perhaps my biggest reason for buying a mac was that there were no ultraportables without the windows tax. In fact, I don't want to have to install linux on my laptop first thing. Also, Sony's 'fresh start' pay-us-to-not-install-crap-maybe-sometimes option really rubs me the wrong way. I looked into it out of curiousity, and the configs are indeed nice, but buy Sony? Ick.
    • Zak 16y ago
      Effectively, all the crap you have to pay them not to install subsidizes your Windows tax. I'm with you in principle, but if they were willing to sell computers with no OS on them, they wouldn't be cheaper.
• mithaler 16y ago
  You can't out-Apple Apple. It's been tried many times. No personal computer company besides Apple has succeeded at selling a lifestyle like they do. That's what product names like that are for--describing the sort of person a product is intended for. Since non-Apple laptop manufacturers don't aim their products at specific enviable lifestyles and instead try to market to everyone, they don't use names like that and instead opt for nondescript numbers.
  • stcredzero 16y ago
    I think Apple is picking out demographics/cohorts that are the most profitable, then marketing directly to them. It makes perfect sense for them to market to the style-conscious. Style-conscious demand gives the producer the opportunity to make a profit through the value-add of design. This isn't shallowness. It's very smart economic thinking.
• old-gregg 16y ago
  I am surprised nobody mentioned the disappearance of usable LCD panels from the laptop market. As far as I know there aren't any true 16 million color IPS models out there and nobody sells normal aspect ratio laptops either: they're all chopped off at the top, hence only 900 vertical pixels instead of 1024, including all Macbooks. Yesterday I bumped into a person in the office with an oldie 15" IBM Thinkpad with 1440x1024 resolution true-color IPS panel with 174/174 degree viewing angle: it was gorgeous. That's the machine I want. And IBM used to market them simply too: TXY where X and Y were used to represent panel size and the generation. My $900 TV beats the hell out of my laptops as far as picture quality is concerned (I own a matte screen MBP and a latest Thinkpad). And that's just a TV! When I get to work and stare at a proper IPS-equipped Dell I wonder if I ever see a picture that good on any laptop again. I also don't get those "98% color gamut" 6-bit laptop panel ads: they're using 18 bits per pixel, who are they kidding?
  • GrandMasterBirt 16y ago
    What about a keyboard layout that at least remotely resembles a real keyboard or uses the FN key intelligently. Like lets make the arrow keys + fn work like page up/down home/end. Instead they make these absolutely insane-o layouts which are impractical and different on every single f-ing laptop even of the same manufacturer. Look at macbooks. All of em. For last 5 yrs. Same keyboard layout AND it is usable because macos does not need the home/end/etc keys instead they have decent combinations. Still solvable by good fn key placements. Also who the hell needs numlock on a laptop. Never seen a single practical reason for it except to annoy the crap out of you "why do some keys make numbers for no good reason". Just figure that crap out. And the names are like car names. They don't want to give an impression that a computer is "bad" or "slow" or "crippled". Do you want to tell your friends "I got a Dell Crippled v3" so they go for the insane-o names. But apple has maybe 1000x less component combinations available as a baseline model. Remember they control the hardware, while these vendors sell mish-mashes of different hardwares.
    • ajdecon 16y ago
      Most of the Asus netbooks have the types of keyboard layouts you refer to (with numlock, scrolllock relegated to Fn+ keys). I don't know about their bigger laptops.
• brmore 16y ago
  If you must do windows, do Sony Vaio + Windows 7 ... Might have to de-crapify depending on how you buy, but when done you'll have powerful, stylish machine that pretty much "just works".
• jhuckabee 16y ago
  System76 does a great job of this. 6 laptops, 6 desktops, and 5 servers. They lay them out on a page so you can make a fairly quick guess about which one or two you want. They come with Ubuntu and seem fairly reasonably priced too.
• grandalf 16y ago
  Most laptop manufacturers constantly update the hardware that is in each model. When they do this they change a number or a letter somewhere. Apple only updates the hardware in its machines about once a year. You could spend $1300 on a new laptop only to learn the following week that Apple is now selling a significantly better machine for that same price. Traditionally Apple has appealed more on the basis of emotion and design rather than hardware specs per dollar. Most people don't care what video card is in their laptop, so Apple's approach seems to be better. The danger to Apple is that people would put off purchases while waiting for the newer model. This surely occurs, but to date Apple has offered enough other advantages (case design, OS design) to minimize the impact of this on sales. The commodity PC firms compete only on the basis of hardware, so a few hundred megahertz or gigabytes make a difference in their ability to differentiate.
  • SandB0x 16y ago
    Well put. There's nothing wrong with customising individual components when ordering, but most people seem to decide on a screen size first. IMO, the basic approach should be something like: Little Model 13 Inch 13 Inch Plus 15 Inch 15 Inch Plus Big Model Normal models are fine for everything that normal people do, apart from maybe playing the latest greatest games. Plus (or Pro) models have discrete graphics, more RAM and a better processor by default. You can choose, say, a workstation level graphics card and SSDs and whatever if you need. There: Amateur consultancy complete!
  • thunk 16y ago
    Well, I ordered a 15" MBP about a month before this year's line came out. It was my first one, so I was unaware of their typical upgrade cycle, macrumors, etc. I was well past the return date and feeling like shit. I called them up and they RMA'd it, waived the restocking fee and paid the return shipping, no questions asked. I got a significantly better machine for about $300 cheaper. I was giddy like a schoolgirl.
    • dasil003 16y ago
      Yeah they can do this because A) most people don't care enough or even think to try this and B) at the end of the product cycle, the original one was so overpriced that they can still make a profit off selling the refurb.
• MikeCapone 16y ago
  That's the same problem that General Motors has (had?). Too many sub-brands and models that are almost all the same (lots of badge engineering) and are renamed constantly, nobody knows exactly what's what, and so they go to Toyota or Honda and pick one of the few models that everybody can immediately recognize.
• c00p3r 16y ago
  Only top-tier, status goods could be sold with a boutique system as a collections, like fashion clothes, elite cars and so on. Apple got it years ago, almost everyone else are lagging behind. The manufacturers of a cheap consumer goods must use appropriate strategies. Creating a mess with model numbers to puzzle a customer and promote them in terms of marketing slogans instead of actual specifications is the one of the most popular in consumer electronics.
• lr 16y ago
  Many people believe that the sole reason the Japanese car companies started to beat the American car companies in the late 80s was because of quality. I think that is only part of the reason... To me, the biggest reason was choice and the purchasing process. When you went to buy an American car you literally had about 1000 options (and that might be too low of a number). When you went to buy a Japanese car you had like 3 options: SL, GL, SE (as an example), and about 3-5 colors to choose from. That was it! We can see the same thing with computers today, and Apple is the equivalent of the Japanese car makes in terms of choice. Guess what, it works!
• jhancock 16y ago
  My #1 reason to buy Apple laptops: keyboard. All I want is a simple keyboard layout, like Apple's...no extra keys...no numeric keypad...no page-up&down...no custom keys to control media...oh yeah, and also drop all the extra ways to click the mouse...just give me a big touch area and drop the three extra keys and eraser-knob. If anyone knows of a manufacturer doing it right, please let me know as I am tired of paying a premium to get a sane keyboard. At the moment going Apple for both desktop and laptop allows me to use the exact same keyboard whether I'm at home or on the road. So bonus points to a laptop manufacturer that also sells an external keyboard to match my desktop same as embedded in the laptop. Seriously, there has to be a market for this!!! The keyboard is the single most important input device. Build it right and they will come.
  • fragmede 16y ago
    Wow, I'm the complete opposite. So much so, that I bought an external keyboard with the 3 keys and eraser-knob for my desktop system. Damnit Apple, I'm USING those function keys, Fn-F7 for mute is no good; give me a single button for mute so I can make it shut-up! PLEASE give me a page-up and page-down, for when I need to go up a page and down a page, I also want a home and an end key. (Don't want a numeric keypad though.) I do, however, very much want the same input - and the closest I've found is a Thinkpad w/ an eraser-knob and an external Thinkpad keyboard w/ the eraser-knob. I wonder how hard it would be to build an external keyboard with 'a big touch area' out of mac parts - they're both usb to begin with, all you'd need is a sleek enclosure for it.
    • fragmede 16y ago
      (Roughly $130 + labor, judging from this part - http://www.powerbookmedic.com/MacBook-Keyboard--Top-Case-Trackpad-White-13-New-p-16958.html http://www.powerbookmedic.com/MacBook-Keyboard--Top-Case-Tra... )
  • greyboy 16y ago
    I sadly miss a Control key on the right side of my MacBook Pro.
• Enlightenment 16y ago
  Reasons apple laptops suck: - They all look the same. - DisplayPort. Have to buy a f*cking adapter to connect to HDMI. - FireWire on Pro. eSATA is more useful to me. - 2 USB ports. only 2 WTF???
• tzury 16y ago
  I have had a macbook. after 3 weeks with it, I gave it to my wife, and switched back to thinkpad. She's happy with the mac, in fact, she can't use windows ever since she experienced mac, and I just missed my linux box, so were quite happy back home. two weeks ago I purchased ThinkPad X200, it is loaded with the latest ubuntu and work like a charm. I consider this set up far better than the Macbook in all terms. I am not familiar with the models you have mentioned though I only had two laptops (gateway and dell around year 2000) before I understood that thinkpad is the way to go.
• smackfu 16y ago
  There are advantages to a good naming system, but I don't think the MacBooks have a great one. Sure it is simple today, but their support pages end up a bit of a joke because of it, talking about late-2006 models and such. They end up abstracting away relevant distinctions.
• r0s 16y ago
  I know this will seem quite elitist but here goes... Eventually they give up trying to decipher the model names, and whether they should be looking in "Everyday", "Performance", "Thin & Light" or "Business" categories and end up ordering a Macbook. The thing is, if you don't know exactly what features you want(clock speed and manufacturer warranty on the RAM for instance), you will most likely be sold snake oil. The model numbers on most OEMs are so complex because they are superfluous. After weeks of comparison shopping on motherboards, I can tell you the features and specs of my final purchase offhand, but I'd need to search for the model number simply because I don't need to know it. Honestly that's what it comes down to in my opinion, you don't care about learning model numbers. I don't blame you, they are relatively meaningless. But you also don't want to learn about the hardware you're buying, and I assert this leaves the buyer at a disadvantage. I know not everyone cares weather they are actually getting what they need for the best price. Many would rather not take the time, and are looking for a way to make smart purchases without bothering to understand what they buy. It's just not possible, the compromises shift around from high price for high quality(apple) to good quality, good price and no service(oem brownbox) and everything else. Again informed shopping isn't for everyone. When comparing laptops, the actual brand is almost the least important factor for me, above shipping costs but well below the manufacturers warranty(which is different on every unit). The best, most popular brands sometimes ship crappy or broken products, this is a fact. How are you protected from that? Trust in a brand? This is the same for anything really, from food to cars to USB drives.
• pcarmichael 16y ago
  Just out of curiosity (as it is closely related to a side project I'm working on), would you find utility in a listing of laptops across a range of manufacturers arranged in a way that would make comparisons of CPU/LCD/hard drive(s)/memory/etc painless?
• melvin 16y ago
  I recently bought my first MacBook and was wondering exactly the same thing. How can all of the other manufacturers miss the point to this extent? Simple branding. Simple model distinction. "15 inch". Elegance. High quality. Visual appeal. No wonder Apple has been so successful... everyone else is so poor, and so caught up in the middle of the pack. Sony is the only other company offering laptops to appeal to the high-end and theirs are kind of a joke.
  • watmough 16y ago
    Just so you know, my 'sofa laptop' is my wife's old 'day 1' 13" MacBook. Still trucking along! Great little machine. 4 years of use for $1099, and still runs XCode decently. Incredible value. Tip for people with multiple macs. If you want to use two at once, download 'teleport' which allows one machine to cursor surf into the adjacent machine. I have a 20" iMac, 17" monitor, then my MBP parked on the end, with the mouse happily roaming across all 3 screens!
• rai 16y ago
  APPLAUSE! APPLAUSE! APPLAUSE! Name-friendly, not just user-friendly needed.
• Goosey 16y ago
  I almost feel like I should do a separate 'Ask HN' for this but.. Does anyone else really want a netbook equivalent in a laptop sized model? When it comes to my development environment, especially with dynamic languages, I don't really NEED Core i7s and high end video cards. RAM size seems to matter much more as does HD speed.. But really, if I am using the computer for work I only really need it to run Chrome, Vim, and maybe Eclipse. My little EeePC netbook hand handle that quite easily. The problem for me is the form factor. I love my EeePC to death for it's battery life and portability. It was a life safer for me on my vacation to S.Korea last year (small enough to easily slip into my day pack for regular access at Wifi hotspots). But I simply CAN NOT program on it. The screen is too small, the resolution is too small, and the keyboard is too small for me to type easily. What I REALLY want is a super light laptop with a gorgeous 15/17 inch screen and a netbook-like 10+ hour battery life. The closest thing I know of toward my ideal is the Macbook Air, but even that seems to have a different design goal in mind (and is far too pricey). Does anyone know any manufactures or models that fit this profile? I feel like there isn't anyone really focusing on providing a good "hacker's laptop"
  • wmf 16y ago
    Intel and MS have gradually relaxed restrictions on netbooks, so we should start seeing some 15" ones soon.
  • dpezely 16y ago
    Sony's Y Series uses the ultra-low voltage version of Core2 Duo, consuming about 10W with a 13" LCD. No internal disc, but Ubuntu and FreeBSD are easily installed via USB stick... Unfortunately, Sony Y Series inventory has been depleted, so it's not listed on the US sonystyle website today. A chat with their sales rep indicated that the product line will return soon. Other series also seem to have limited inventory, so a full product line refresh seems due soon! However, after reading other people's concerns (above) regarding Linux drivers and VT disabled, I'm reconsidering. A friend has the current F series (i7) running Linux just fine, btw.
  • Artagra 16y ago
    MSI X-Slim and Acer Timeline are both available as 15" CULV machines - not sure if they are available in the US, but they are about as close as you get to a 15" Netbook. Otherwise, a 13" Macbook Pro is also an option - 13", amazing battery life, only a bit heavier than a Macbook Air - and much cheaper. http://gizmodo.com/5158557/msis-x+slim-x340-x600-are-two-more-sub+1000-macbook-air-lookalikes http://gizmodo.com/5158557/msis-x+slim-x340-x600-are-two-mor... http://www.acer.com/timeline/spec/spec.html http://www.acer.com/timeline/spec/spec.html http://www.acer.co.za/timelinepro/home.html http://www.acer.co.za/timelinepro/home.html
• ImFatYoureFat 16y ago
  Lenovo is still pretty solid, though decreasing is quality pretty rapidly. I could probably name for you their 5 or 6 thinkpad brands (s,w,t,r,... well apparently I can only name 4) but I couldn't for the life of me tell you the difference between any of them. But I don't think the branding is the primary problem.
• Artagra 16y ago
  I think the one factor is purely volume. Apple has a very small range of laptops, compared with other manufacturers. And they have a relatively large market share for the segment of the market they compete in ($1000 plus laptops). Hence, for x dollars of sales, they sell 1 model - compared with their competitors, who all have to sell many more models. So they can spend significantly more on the R&D and design for each model, and still be profitable. This shows in their systems.
• pcunite 16y ago
  I have been using laptops since 1997, many different brands, shapes and colors. The one that I had stayed with the longest is ThinkPad. Very simple lines, non-descript raw functionally, the TrackPoint, and up until recently IPS displays. I was forced to buy a new laptop a month ago and went with the ThinkPad SL510. Installed an SSD myself. Very nice build quality, even the slightly less matte casing is an okay compromise to get the price to $680 in my option. The only thing is the pure crap TN panel in the thing and 16:9 ratio is not made for getting work done. If the reason for crap laptop panels is the big three (Samsung, etc) making crap TN panels then lets get together and do something about it. Lenovo said that if they had only 15,000 confirmed orders they would make an IPS model to spec.
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