17 ms·

Robert M. Pirsig has died

655 points by molecule 9y ago

dap 9y ago
"Zen" has its strengths and weaknesses, but I found its discussion about "gumption traps" (Chapter 26, I believe) to be absolute, solid gold. Pirsig's description of what it's like to do gritty work on a complex system -- and all the logical, mental, and emotional blocks associated with that -- really resonated with my experience as a software engineer, and they've helped me get better at being aware of those blocks and getting past them. May he rest in peace.
- nbanks 9y ago
  The "gumption trap", both the term and the definition, is a great insight. I tend to find gumption traps really annoying and it's good to know why I'm annoyed and how to push through. When a friend of mine recommended the book he used this concept as the example of why it was amazing.
- ngcazz 9y ago
  I recommend having the book Working Effectively with Legacy Software by Michael Feathers in your library, as it is essentially a practical guide to techniques for minimising gumption traps in software engineering.
mmaunder 9y ago
RIP Phaedrus.
Insanity 9y ago
May he rest in peace. Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance was one of the first books on philosophy that I read outside of my philosophy curriculum at university and it stayed with me. It's a great book discussing the metaphysics of quality, but not just that. It's written in a captivating way, mixing both the 'food for thought' as well as a pleasant narative about a father and a son on a motorcycle trip. It's one of the philosophy books that I can recommend to people who are not directly interested in philosophy as well, which gave me some quite fun discussions with my friends about the topics in the book without being too deep into the philosophy itself.
- vermontdevil 9y ago
  I read it three times. Still trying to grasp everything. Will keep on reading it. Great book.
  - sonabinu 9y ago
    It's one of the few books I've read multiple times! And it's still on my reading list.
  - Insanity 9y ago
    I agree with you, it is a hard book to grasp everything in it in one go!
lanbanger 9y ago
It's no exaggeration to say that this book changed my life. I learned so much from it, and apply what I learned on a daily basis. I was only thinking a couple of weeks ago that it's time for another re-read: that's definitely the case now. RIP Robert M. Pirsig :-(
theprop 9y ago
And you think you're having troubles with your startup? "Zen was published in 1974, after being rejected by 121 publishing houses...then Pirsig lived reclusively and worked on his second book Lila for 17 years before its publication in 1991." "Quality is, how do you know what it is, or how do you know that it even exists? If no one knows what it is, then for all practical purposes it doesn't exist at all. But for all practical purposes it really does exist."
- coderholic 9y ago
  And his son (Chris in the book) was murdered in San Francisco!
  - ternaryoperator 9y ago
    Your comment should have a spoiler alert.
    - mikestew 9y ago
      His son Chris was murdered long after the book was published, there is nothing spoiled unless you're really into the plot of postscripts of later editions. EDIT: (And, yeesh, it was forty years ago. What "spoiler"? BTW, Vader is Luke's father.)
      - ternaryoperator 9y ago
        Jeez, chill man. For some of us, the fact that we knew about this changed the book. Why be insulting just because you don't agree?
      - nicky0 9y ago
        I don't think you understand spoilers.
    - cypherpunks01 9y ago
      It's completely heartbreaking, but how is that a spoiler for the book? The book ends long before that tragedy.
maerF0x0 9y ago
I didnt understand apple until I read this book. Before then I was a total robot.
- cirgue 9y ago
  How do you mean?
  - cypherpunks01 9y ago
    With no other context, I assume it means that since the book is in part an attempt to reconcile "romantic" and "classical" viewpoints, commenter was able to gain a new appreciation of the Apple design philosophy after reading the book.
- logicallee 9y ago
  I second the other comment. Please take a minute to expand your thoughts! I didn't read the book, but perhaps if you take a moment to write your thoughts, you will move some people to get and read the book as well :) your thoughts probably also stand on their own and could be interesting for people who have read the book.
  - defined 9y ago
    RTFB! :)
- maerF0x0 9y ago
  There are two characters in the book. One rides a newer BMW motorcycle and only lets the technicians work on it and just wants it to work. The other has an older motorcycle that he just intuits how its operating, how it feels, what it needs. The former is afraid of technology and just sees it as a tool to get what he wants done (to get from A to B) . The latter values the feeling of the ride, the ritual of riding, the journey more than everything working out issue free etc. Before this book I couldnt understand why Apple existed, it exerted so much control over its users, it abstracted away the intimate details etc. Apple appeals to users because so many of them are afraid of being intimate with their tools, they just want it to work. I say i was a total robot because to me it was all about the facts. The fact was i could get a "higher spec" machine for less money and have more control over it. But I couldnt empathize with the Apple users. Now i get it.
andrewbinstock 9y ago
A wonderful book that I'm amazed ever got published. Still, as noted in wikipedia: "It was originally rejected by 121 publishers, more than any other bestselling book, according to the Guinness Book of Records." [edited to remove spoiler I shouldn't have mentioned -- my apologies]
- mike_h 9y ago
  Spoiler alert?
- coss 9y ago
  I was also shocked but come on man, spoilers.
  - jfoutz 9y ago
    FWIW, i read and old copy, it lacked the afterword. I found out years later when talking to someone about the book. I get your point, but it wasn't part of the original work.
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sizzzzlerz 9y ago
Was there a US university philosophy class in the 70s and 80s that didn't include reading this book? Maybe outside the US, as well. Someone said about it that it was as much about riding and fixing motorcycles as Moby Dick was about whaling. Much like the book, I'm not sure I totally understand that but you can't deny its importance.
- nickbauman 9y ago
  It's a book about technology in general and our qualitative relationship to the things we make, really.
  - chubot 9y ago
    Eh, that's doesn't really cover it either. I've always told me friends that it's about Western philosophy and mental illness. Those two subjects are covered just as much as Zen and Motorcycle maintenance. The parts about your relationship to the machine will definitely resonate with engineers, but that's not all it's about. I guess that is why it is a great book -- there's something for everyone and it can be read in multiple ways.
- sswaner 9y ago
  Not in my Philosphy Department (1989-1992). "That book may have brought you here, but we will focus on the original Phaedrus, followed by Descartes, Kant and Wittgenstein." I have read ZMM many times, it is on the short list of books that have had a profound influence on me. But in college I read a different set of philosophers.
- deleted 9y ago
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- soufron 9y ago
  I don't think it's very influent outside of the US.
  - michaelhoney 9y ago
CurtMonash 9y ago
I wish more people had read that book. Anybody with some education in philosophy figures out that utter, logical-proof certainty can't be had. So what does one do for epistemology instead? There are two main alternatives: -- Religious-style faith. This is not my preferred choice. -- An aesthetically-tinged approach to epistemology. What I mean by the latter is, for example, generalizing Occam's Razor into usability. The problem with Occam's Razor is that it says, in effect, "In case of doubt go with the simpler answer", without giving a general way to judge what's simpler. Any solution to that problem winds up being an aesthetic kind of judgment.
- abritinthebay 9y ago
  Except that's not what Occam's Razor says and that problem comes from the awful and inaccurate simplification of it.
  - derefr 9y ago
    It's sort of what the Minimum Message Length formulation says. It's hard to communicate the "essential meaning" of Occam's Razor in simple language, because the only good analogies for it involve things like compression algorithms, quantum physics or topology. If you know what the word "axiom" really means, and can picture an address of a thing in a set taking up space (e.g. bytes of a URL) as your query gets more specific, then Occam's Razor is a very "obvious" statement about the probability of reification of mathematical objects in our universe given their size. If you don't have that context, someone can talk for an hour and it won't communicate the point.
    - abritinthebay 9y ago
      > It's hard to communicate the "essential meaning" of Occam's Razor in simple language It's really not. Here's a few that don't make the same mistake. - Plurality must never be posited without necessity. - Among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected. - Entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity. - Whenever possible, substitute constructions out of known entities for inferences to unknown entities. - favor hypotheses that make the fewest unwarranted assumptions about the data from which they are derived. All of these are more correct and communicate the principles better than the "simplest" formulation which is just flat-out wrong without extremely heavy clarification of what "simplest" means (at which point you may as well use one of the above).
musgravepeter 9y ago
Easily the book I have re-read the most times.
dwe3000 9y ago
I don't remember how I came across it, but I remember reading it early in high school - 9th grade, I think - and loving it. While the philosophy was a great read, the ideas of understanding and caring for your equipment influenced my thoughts on all the technology I use, even if I'm not a mechanic.
- oska 9y ago
  I read it at about the same age and it had a similar impact on me.
coss 9y ago
Really enlightening book. Definitely among my top three of all time.
cm2012 9y ago
Not a fan of the book (it calls to mind an acid trip - the author sounds like he understands something deeper, but there's no clarity to it), but the author undeniably had a thought process different than the mainstream, which is always valuable.
- rfrank 9y ago
  I totally get you on your critique, but I think the ambiguity is somewhat intentional - think koans in Zen Buddhism. Haven't read it in over 10 years now, so if I were to read it again I might not think the same, however. He probably directly mentions the koans thing himself haha. Around the same time I read Way of the Peaceful Warrior by Dan Millman [1], and Illusions by Richard Bach [2], and felt they were both better than Zen. At the end of the day I think the real value of any of those texts is the introduction to philosophy/self-discovery in general, in a really accessible form. "A cloud does not know why it moves in just such a direction and at such a speed, it feels an impulsion... this is the place to go now. But the sky knows the reason and the patterns behind all clouds, and you will know, too, when you lift yourself high enough to see beyond horizons." - Illusions 1. https://www.amazon.com/Way-Peaceful-Warrior-Changes-Lives/dp/0915811898 https://www.amazon.com/Way-Peaceful-Warrior-Changes-Lives/dp... 2. https://www.amazon.com/Illusions-Adventures-Reluctant-Messiah-published/dp/B00E31NEB4/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1493083015&sr=1-2&keywords=illusions https://www.amazon.com/Illusions-Adventures-Reluctant-Messia...
- alexpetralia 9y ago
  This is exactly the same impression I had. While I appreciated his radical and unique perspective, I can't say I completely comprehended it.
- jdietrich 9y ago
  To my mind, the concept of upāya (skillful means) is essential. A particular teaching might not be literally true, but it's not necessarily false either. It might not make sense to you, but that might simply be because it's meant for someone else. There are core truths in Buddhist thought, but the route to understanding and internalising those truths is not necessarily straightforward or logical. I also dislike Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, but I can see that many other people found value in it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upaya https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upaya
pasbesoin 9y ago
I remember -- belatedly, after a few suggestions to do so -- reading "Zen" the summer after I graduated. I rarely notate in a book, but that copy ended up full of notes in the margins. At the time, I thought it was one of the most significant things I'd read. Of course, I was young, and it was a long time ago. (And then, life and injury and illness and... well, a distinct lack of quality happened, and I never got back to it.) I've been meaning, intending, lately, to reread it. Last year, I was invited into a book club. I've considered suggesting it -- I think I will. Quality. Eloquence, in a word. P.S. I've been thinking about getting a bike and riding for a summer. Adequate, but not overdone -- and quiet. Piece by piece, this rough idea has been sketching itself in. Don't know why I'm telling HN, this, or why you should care. Except that we all should care about quality. And about a man who thought and felt hard on the topic and in turn gave us much to think about. Reflected much of ourselves, to ourselves -- giving us eyes and ears into ourselves and our choices. Anyway...
nickbauman 9y ago
While I enjoyed the book, for me going back over it years later, in the afterword for the second edition: a crushing blow. It now overshadows the book for me. It describes the murder and aftermath many years later of his son that was featured in the novel. Here. I found it. Read it. :'( http://theaetetus.tamu.edu/online-texts/zen/zen-afterword.html http://theaetetus.tamu.edu/online-texts/zen/zen-afterword.ht...
- bigjust 9y ago
  This was the edition I first read. I distinctly remember after finishing it for the first time, and for some reason immediately starting the afterword, that having such a crushing affect after finishing the book, i really think it ruined my mood, and thus dampened the memory.
- deleted 9y ago
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- isoprophlex 9y ago
  Man that's a hammer to the head. I don't remember my copy having this afterword, thanks for linking to it.
- thesmallestcat 9y ago
  You have to wonder what his son said to earn that treatment.
  - jackhack 9y ago
    There is no reasoning nor bargaining with evil. It simply is, and its job is to destroy.
    - thesmallestcat 9y ago
      Did you read it? Chris said something which the witnesses could not hear. His assailant became angrier. Chris then said something that made him even more furious. He jammed the knife into Chris's chest. There's "evil," and then there's turning a mugging into getting knifed in the chest. Unless you're saying that this was the norm for SF muggings in the 80's. It's pretty likely that 22 year-old guy acted smart. That doesn't make it right, all I said was that I'd be interested in what exactly he said to provoke the response.
accountyaccount 9y ago
There's a lot to pick at about the book, but it's a great introduction to some basic philosophical concepts.
temp246810 9y ago
>>>"The book is brilliant beyond belief," wrote Morrow editor James Landis before publication. "It is probably a work of genius and will, I'll wager, attain classic status." Amazing when things like that are foretold. (Yes I know, survivorship bias blah blah)
shirazi 9y ago
Very sad to hear this news. May he rest in peace.
Turing_Machine 9y ago
"Phædrus' provocation informed the Chairman that his substantive field was now philosophy, not English composition. However, he said, the division of study into substantive and methodological fields was an outgrowth of the Aristotelian dichotomy of form and substance, which nondualists had little use for, the two being identical. He said he wasn't sure, but the thesis on Quality appeared to turn into an anti-Aristotelian thesis. If this was true he had chosen an appropriate place to present it. Great Universities proceeded in a Hegelian fashion and any school which could not accept a thesis contradicting its fundamental tenets was in a rut. This, Phædrus claimed, was the thesis the University of Chicago was waiting for. He admitted the claim was grandiose and that value judgments were actually impossible for him to make since no person could be an impartial judge of his own cause. But if someone else were to produce a thesis which purported to be a major breakthrough between Eastern and Western philosophy, between religious mysticism and scientific positivism, he would think it of major historic importance, a thesis which would place the University miles ahead. In any event, he said, no one was really accepted in Chicago until he'd rubbed someone out. It was time Aristotle got his."
vr46 9y ago
The conclusion to one of my favourite sections: "In other words, any true German mechanic, with a half-century of mechanical finesse behind him, would have concluded that this particular solution to this particular technical problem was perfect." Anyone else remember that bit? I now ride a big BMW R1200RT. I wonder if this book influenced me to do that? RIP Mr Pirsig
- mikestew 9y ago
  If anything, the book would have kept me away from the clueless, snooty BMW riders that don't have a clue about their bikes. Real riders like Pirsig ride Hondas, just like I did for most of my riding career. :-) -- Signed, Owner of a '14 R1200GSA
  - jacquesm 9y ago
    It took me a while to make sense of that. Apologies for the (corrected) downvote.
    - mikestew 9y ago
      Why would you downvote it in the first place? That's exactly how John in the book struck me. I'd even argue that it was kind of the point of the section that was quoted.
  - pfd1986 9y ago
    I'm sad to say I'm a clueless Honda driver myself (shadow spirit 750). But his book inspired to get the manual and start working thru it. Hopefully by the summer I'm making my first adjustments.
  - vr46 9y ago
    Yes, me too - I dismissed BMWs as bikes for the middle-aged, which is why I bought one once I became middle-aged :)
- randcraw 9y ago
  Pirsig's displeasure at John's disrespect for using a strip cut from an aluminum beer can as a handgrip spacer on John's lah-dee-dah BMW -- who can forget that? That vignette served as the main example of Pirsig's "quality" and how easily the rose-colored glasses of provincialism can distract us from seeing it.
cypherpunks01 9y ago
If you love the book and haven't seen the other photos from the trip, check them out—it's 12 photos Pirsig took during the summer 1968 trip! Pirsig sent them to a professor who was doing ZMM-related research: http://venturearete.org/ResearchProjects/ProfessorGurr/gallery/Pictures-Robert-Pirsigs-original-1968-trip http://venturearete.org/ResearchProjects/ProfessorGurr/galle...
- mikestew 9y ago
  Thanks for the link, I hadn't seen but one of those pictures before. And for those thinking a 900lb. Honda Goldwing is required for cross-country travel, Pirsig's bike was Honda Hawk 305, as in 305cc. It put out 28 horsepower. I'll bet there are scooters today that put out more power. And Pirsig loaded it with two people and camping gear and rode it cross-country.
  - jeremysmyth 9y ago
    Yeah but bear in mind the maintenance became a significant part of the experience (motorcycle maintenance is not just in the title for decoration). Some people prefer not to do that.
  - awfgylbcxhrey 9y ago
    There are vastly more vehicles on the road today, and people expect to maintain higher average speeds. Also, maintaining speed becomes exhausting on smaller bikes, for a variety of reasons.
camperman 9y ago
My introduction to Quality Without a Name and motorcycling. I still ride and still appreciate engineering that somehow manages to be greater than just the sum of its parts: the Leica M3, the Blackbird SR71, the HP 12C.
- Baeocystin 9y ago
  It was Quality that helped my understand why, exactly, I was (and am) so attached to my old HP 48 SX.
  - rout39574 9y ago
    Preach it! I now own four and have addicted my son to RPN.
    - Baeocystin 9y ago
      I have my main one + two verified working ebay specials within arms' reach. (HN being one of the few places I can not only admit this, but get good-natured grief for using the 'new' models. :D) I also have another saved up, ready to give my younger brother-in-law as he prepares for engineering classes. I plan on getting him as addicted to RPN as the rest of us.
  - gonzo 9y ago
    HP 41SX? That's new! HP 41C!
- DonaldFisk 9y ago
  Quality without a definition, surely. Quality Without a Name was Christopher Alexander's idea, described in A Timeless Way of Building. Though the two are related. I've read both ZatAoMM and Lila, and can recommend both.
  - camperman 9y ago
    Whoops - you're quite right. QWAN is Christopher Alexander.
cypherpunks01 9y ago
"Normally screws are so cheap and small and simple you think of them as unimportant. But now, as your Quality awareness becomes stronger, you realize that this one, individual, particular screw is neither cheap nor small nor unimportant. Right now this screw is worth exactly the selling price of the whole motorcycle, because the motorcycle is actually valueless until you get the screw out. With this reevaluation of the screw comes a willingness to expand your knowledge of it."
- mmaunder 9y ago
  Every carb I've rebuilt has benefited from those words.
  - Neliquat 9y ago
    Indeed. For extra goodness, buy a few packs of stainless allen head screws to replace the cadnium plated steel ones that always strip. They always strip, because they are not phillips, but JIS screws. The dot on the head gives it away.
    - mmaunder 9y ago
      Funny. I learned that about 8 months ago. Wondering if we watched the same YouTube video.
- dap 9y ago
  Solid gold. I just commented elsewhere about the gumption trap chapter, but the whole chapter this passage comes from is similarly insightful -- maybe more so.
- mtempm 9y ago
  I read this in high school and years later in university learned economists named this concept 'marginal utility.' It's an important concept to understand in many aspects of life. In social and economic policy, it's important to remember resources are allocated per marginal utility, not by what they're worth. I.E. water is worth more to me than music, but I spend more money on music than water, and the music industry makes more than public water utilities. Seems obvious when stated like that, but it's often forgotten I find.
matt4077 9y ago
There's a rather negative critique floating around that someone is bound to post, sooner than later. And it is, in itself, worth reading. It's possibly even right–I read both the book and the critique twice, and came away believing both, somewhat paradoxically. But I wish to make the case that the book is worth reading for its literary value alone. The narrative parts are a gentle, beautiful telling of this father/son trip across the northwest, and reading it will leave you with enjoying nature (or, more generally, reality) with something like a calm optimism.
- fineline 9y ago
  Agreed, Zen and the Art has real narrative value - including considerable suspense - whether you buy the philosophy or not. And frankly I do, despite understanding why some call it hippy pseudo-psychology. His second book Lila goes into it more methodically - but the literary narrative there is not so taught, kind of sadder.
- ep103 9y ago
  What's the critique? I've never heard of it.
  - stinkytaco 9y ago
    That he's a "phony, self-congratulatory, pretentious buffoon" according to the top rated review on Goodreads [1]. That it's new-age, pseudo-psychology masquerading as philosophy. I don't share these views, personally. But knowing a fair few philosophers myself, I think the Analytic school is powerful in the US. Dominated by figures like Bertrand Russell, who rely on a formal grammar and logical syntax. Philosophy is a science in this view and there's no room for narrative. ZatAoMM falls into the Continental school and has more in common in its approach with figures like Nietzsche and Marx, relying on a narrative or historical approach. Neither of those particular figures, nor the Continental school in general, are much in vogue and thus I think Zen gets rejected for being both Continental and popular. [1]:http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/16210395 http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/16210395 EDIT: It's also frequently observed that Pirsig offers nothing new to philosophy. This is probably correct. I think the narrative aspect is what really separates the work. I found this while searching around a bit looking for further information, and it really sums up what I feel is ZatAoMM's greatest contribution: 'hat makes Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance superlative (and unique, to my knowledge) is that Pirsig successfully blended the history of philosophy with the history of his psyche, allegorizing each into the other." [2] [2]:https://www.quora.com/What-do-philosophers-think-about-Zen-and-the-Art-of-Motorcycle-Maintenance/answer/Matt-Kundert https://www.quora.com/What-do-philosophers-think-about-Zen-a...
rgrieselhuber 9y ago
I was kind of a punk in high school and I was in a week-long suspension room for skipping a bunch of classes. The room monitor was this cool older dude with a long beard who talked a lot about life, philosophy, and things like that. We weren't allowed to read or do anything but sit in boredom during suspension (school rules) but he made an exception for me if I wanted to read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance (at his recommendation). I bought a copy and brought it to suspension the next day, read the whole thing that week. Good memories thanks to the room monitor dude and an excellent book.
- cypherpunks01 9y ago
  That totally sounds like a scene from Freaks and Geeks involving hippie guidance counselor Mr. Rosso.
- stickfigure 9y ago
  This is such a strange punishment. Kid stupidly deprives himself of learning, so to discourage it, we deprive him of another week's worth?
  - dclowd9901 9y ago
    Strange and prevalent (at least in the US). Every state I've lived in has some form of this, be it in-school or out-of-school suspension. It seems like a way to train kids for prison. It's mostly just a way to keep them from disrupting others; in other words, it's the easiest way to deal with the kid (with no thought toward helping them).
mtempm 9y ago
It's amazing public schools are permitted to do this. There's nothing for the kid to grow from in a child sitting around doing nothing. Children grow from experiences and challenges. Minds forced into isolation with no stimulation are stunted, and there's scientific evidence to support that. Obviously one week is not going to make or break a person, but this school policy is exceptionally ignorant.
- rgrieselhuber 9y ago
  Agreed. Public schools, in my opinion, are as much about control as they are education.
- ams6110 9y ago
  So what's your solution to make the kid stop skipping classes?
  - rgrieselhuber 9y ago
    Make school interesting. Actually, learning how to code and learning Japanese changed my life in this regard. I didn't know how to teach myself things until those two things happened, once I did, pretty much everything else opened up to me.
    - udkl 9y ago
      Learning Japaneeses opened up your life ? I'm now much curious about your story.
      - rgrieselhuber 9y ago
        Yup. I got interested in Japan after reading Shogun as a kid. When I was in college, I finally had the chance to study it well and they had a great program. What I learned there taught me how to learn in general, which I then used to learn Computer Science, which opened up a bunch more for me.
ffdixon1 9y ago
I must have ready ZMM at least seven times (so far) in my life. Back when I was taking an undergraduate, I read it the first time and was inspired to take as many English courses as I could. I wanted to be a technical writer. After a series of co-op work-terms in the field (the companies loved a tech writer who could also program), I landed a full-time job as a technical writer in a large telecommunications company. I would read ZMM on the bus to work for inspiration. Pirsig could write with such clarity that I tried to emulate him in my writing (as I'm sure all poor writers do). I eventually returned to programming as it was my first love. The job as a tech writer definitely improved my writing skills, and reading ZMM definitely improved my life.
- roymurdock 9y ago
  Pynchon worked as a technical writer for Boeing, and Vonnegut worked as a publicist for GE. You can see how their appreciation of tech shaped their future work. You're in good company!
  - stinkytaco 9y ago
    Also Ted Chiang, who is a technical writer for Microsoft.
DubiousPusher 9y ago
Zen is still a great gateway text into philosophies Eastern and Western. It's nice he lived to a ripe old age.
oska 9y ago
A couple of other obituaries: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/24/books/robert-pirsig-dead-wrote-zen-and-the-art-of-motorcycle-maintenance.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/24/books/robert-pirsig-dead-... http://www.latimes.com/local/obituaries/la-me-robert-pirsig-obituary-20170424-story.html http://www.latimes.com/local/obituaries/la-me-robert-pirsig-...
udkl 9y ago
If you are thinking of purchasing this book from the kindle store, buy the mass market paper book for $3.99 and then matchbook it to get the kindle version for $2. This way you end up with 2 copies for the price of the standalone kindle version and you can give one away. I borrowed the book from the public library just last week.
- pfd1986 9y ago
  Thanks!! I just bought it a couple months ago and wasn't aware of the matchbook option.
westoncb 9y ago
I read a little over half of ZMM about a year ago, and there's one aspect of it that caught my attention which I'm surprised to not see mentioned here. He gives a break down of a certain style of thinking about things where you break the subject down into parts and the relationships between the parts. He gives examples in technical writing that this process has a degree of arbitrariness to it. His circumscribing the general process of conceptualizing things suggests that the process itself has limits, and while valuable, is not everything (despite the tendency of certain mentalities to see things that way. He has an ongoing contrast between himself who is inclined to think that way and others who aren't.) I see this as a bridge to understanding Eastern philosophy's low opinion of language and penchant for indirect explanations.
bariswheel 9y ago
Rest in peace, Mr. Robert Pirsig. Your books stimulated and entertained my intellect during my high school/undergrad years, served as a gateway to get a better grip on philosophy in general, and had a lasting influence on me this day. Thank you for sharing your life with us.
baali 9y ago
I had finished reading the book(ZAAMM) recently. I have been sharing its snippets with friends and talking over them. I found it really insightful and reflective.
a_d 9y ago
I spent a long summer in 1998 researching the life of Mr Pirsig. Here is some little known trivia - some of the years when he disappeared, were spent in Banaras Hindu University (Varanasi, India) with Prof Mukherjee (head of the philosophy department) learning about Indian (Hindu) philosophy. I met Prof MUkherjee, who was retired by the time I went looking for him. I tracked him down and asked him if he remembered Mr Robert Pirsig (I took a picture that I had printed from the internet). He told me about a curious "American fellow" who used to "audit" the classes in the philosophy department, hang around the library and the canteen - and would seek him out to have discussions with him. He said that he was very quiet and nice guy. Interestingly, Prof Mukherjee had no idea that Mr Pirsig has written this cult book or that he was a famous author/philosopher. To him, he was just an odd student (because of his age). I wrote about this in our campus newspaper - but no one cared. I thought that I was the only fan of Mr Pirsig in this small town in India. Once I found the internet I discovered that I wasn't alone. It was a great feeling. Anyway, i was very proud that he went to the same university that i went to. It was exciting to learn that in 1998! Also, while i didn't fully get the philosophy-the father and son journey in Zen really meant a lot to me while growing up. Edit: by the way, Prof Mukherjee is mentioned in his book "Lila", and that is how I found him. Edit2: "Lila", the name of Mr Pirsig's second book, seems to have been inspired by his stay in Varanasi (India). In Sanskrit, the word Lila is "a way of describing all reality, including the cosmos, as the outcome of creative play by the divine". Someone on Wikipedia also seems to have made this connection: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lila:_An_Inquiry_into_Morals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lila:_An_Inquiry_into_Morals Edit3: I spent the last hour digging into a 15-year-old hard drive (oh, what painful fun). I found a folder with my notes on Robert Pirsig! Most interestingly, my meeting notes with Dr. Mukherjee. I gave him the book and he flipped through the chapter for 20 minutes reading the sections I had underlined (where his name was mentioned). This frail man of seventy, said with a smile on his face: "He must not have been an attentive student. I never taught him this way". Most of the notes are about him reminiscing about the "golden years" of the philosophy department when according to him many great philosophers came to visit and study at the philosophy department at Banaras Hindu University.
- icc97 9y ago
  Perhaps you should put your notes online?
craneca0 9y ago
“You want to know how to paint a perfect painting? It's easy. Make yourself perfect and then just paint naturally.”
anigbrowl 9y ago
We weren't allowed to read or do anything but sit in boredom during suspension (school rules) What kind of fucking school discourages people from reading even if they're in detention. Stories like this make me glad I didn't grow up in the USA.
- rgrieselhuber 9y ago
  Luckily we also had some great teachers. Several of the teachers there got me on the right path in a lot of ways. The problem with schools in the US is it really is luck of the draw in terms of who you come into contact with.
  - timr 9y ago
    Your comments on schools and Japanese strike me as extremely ironic. As someone who has been sitting in a Japanese school for the better part of a year, I'll take the average American school, any day, any time. Japanese teachers' first love is unquestioning obedience. Their second love is robotic memorization. Creative, effective education is somewhere around the bottom of the priority list. (I realize that your broader point is that learning the language made you able to learn, but it's still situationally ironic. Also, from the parent comment, I suspect that you believe that "schools in the US" are somehow inherently worse than other places.)
    - rgrieselhuber 9y ago
      Well I've only attended K-12 in the US, so I have nothing to compare to but I can speak from my own experience. I was never thrilled with the administration at the schools I went to but had life-improving encounters with some of the staff, which is my point. Perhaps I over-generalized that to all schools with the US. As far as growing up in a Japanese school, I totally agree. I'd take the American school over that system any day of the week.
- unethical_ban 9y ago
  I loathe this comment. When I find a person on HN or reddit who comes off as an ass, I look up their recent comment history to see if it's an anomaly or a pattern. Without further context, I hope you recognize your hypocrisy when you plead with someone asking them not to treat "entertainment" as "Hollywood". The person above gives an anecdote from an unknown decade, and an unknown city of an unknown part of one of the most diverse countries in the world. And you cast aside the entire American experience because of it. Your comment had no purpose.
amy12xx 9y ago
I found the road trip part of the book enjoyable, but the philosophy (Quality) talk a bit drawn out and something I didn't get. Have been intermittently reading it, but haven't finished it yet.
- cedex12 9y ago
  Same situation for me. I find the philosophy to be too judgemental, and the belief that Quality is the metaphysical key to the understanding of the world seems really overstretched.
  - fineline 9y ago
    As I understood, it boils down to: Quality is the cutting edge of experience, which is the totality of any "reality" we can know. Things like science, religion, etc. are static value patterns that we assemble to explain that experience, and that allow us to use a process of "static latching" (from Lila) to climb higher up the mountain of quality. Whilst possibly a gross over-simplification, I do find this perspective a really practical philosophy for personal growth as well as a good basecamp for approaching other philosophical viewpoints.
runevault 9y ago
I've owned the ebook of Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance for years but never read it. I think I need to finally make time for that book.
inimino 9y ago
This book was on my reading list for many years, and I finally read it a couple years ago. A wonderful book. Highly recommended to anyone who likes reading. It's not just the philosophy and it's not just the story, it's the way they are part of the same whole, with deep roots in the American landscape, that makes this book so special. Now I want to revisit it and see if I can pick up his later work as well. If you still haven't read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, do yourself a favor and pick up a copy.
dustinkirkland 9y ago
I've (re-)read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance every time I've bought a motorcycle [1997, 1998, 1999, 2003, 2014]. Pirsig's concept of "quality" sticks with me in every decision I make as a parent, engineer, and product manager. RIP, Mr. Pirsig.
HAL9OOO 9y ago
I never post here but this saddens me greatly, his ideas spoke to me on another level.
emmelaich 9y ago
Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance is not a very good book but it is a good book. I loved it and will always remember it when I have forgotten many other books. It is not a 'philosophy' book but it is quite philosophical. It's worth a read but it's slow in parts. Push yourself through or skip a few chapters. Like many other readers my favourite part is the drink can as shim.
- fineline 9y ago
  I used this many years ago with friends (a touring band) on the side of a German autobahn on a ~10metre coach that was shearing its wheel studs, not so much as a shim but to hold the new studs in place until the nuts torqued up. We all enjoyed drinking the beers required to get the job done too.
iaw 9y ago
My first thought: why is that name so familiar? My second: Oh. Pirsig's book was there for me during a challenging time of my life. I never finished it, but I'm not so confident that I really needed to. Just starting the book in many ways can be enough.
seanxh 9y ago
“I think its important now to tie care to Quality by pointing out that care and Quality are internal and external aspects of the same thing. A person who sees Quality and feels it as he works is a person who cares. A person who cares about what he sees and does is a person whos bound to have some characteristics of Quality” Thank you and RIP Mr.Pirsig
rmc 9y ago
Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance is a great philosophy book, but kinda rubbish as a motorcycle travel book. I recommend Jupiters Travels (from the same era) for an excellent motorcycle travel book.
breeze_em_out 9y ago
Let me guess, there will mysteriously be no black bar.
arh68 9y ago
A thought occurred to me the other day. What if it's not so good to "be one with the bicycle" ? What I mean is, I feel the narrator identifies too strongly with the machine. The frustrations of the machine translate directly to him, leading to crap avoiding gumption traps. Like composition v. inheritance, you don't always want to become the thing, you just want to use it. It's dangerous to become a thing, especially one without any Quality. Maybe I resonate more strongly now with the BMW driver. I don't know. Maybe I didn't really understand the book.
- ruleabidinguser 9y ago
  >. It's dangerous to become a thing, Why?
- philtar 9y ago
  What you missed, is that you do not become the thing, you already are the thing. You just need to realize it.
- ep103 9y ago
  Because it isn't about the bicycle. What are you doing, right now? (Besides posting on the internet). What are you working towards? That's the bicycle. And if you are spending your time working on it or towards it, then that means it is something you value. And if it is something you value, then "becoming one with it" as you put it, will allow you to both do better at the task/goal, as well as reap a more rewarding experience from pursuing that task/goal. You could take the opposite approach, and not truly value any thing that you do, but I a) am not sure that could be rewarding and b) am not sure that is possible. As DFW said, everybody worships something, whether they know it or not. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI) So the book takes the opposite perspective. It says, well, whatever you are working on is what you value. Whatever you spend your time on is what you value. And if you can remember to truly embrace the things you value, or conversely, ensure you spend your time pursuing the things you truly value, then your experiences towards those topics/goals/tasks will be more rewarding and as a result, your life can be more enriching as well.
dugditches 9y ago
If anyone hasn't heard this(hour long): http://www.cbc.ca/player/play/2623057085 http://www.cbc.ca/player/play/2623057085 An interview with someone who interviewed Pirsig. With clips from that original interview. Very, very good radio. From personal relation to the book. When I was young I went on a motorcycle trip on the back of my father's motorcycle, with his friend and son. We pulled into a small rural gas station, and there was a younger guy filling up a small foreign car. And he just started laughing upon talking to us. He had just taken time off his undergrad after reading a book about man and his son on a motorcycle trip. And wrote the name down on the back of our map. While I was far to young to understand the book at first, reading it over again and again as I got older it was a different learning experience each time as I grew.
- fineline 9y ago
  It has spoken in a changing but relevant way to me each decade that I have read it.
fineline 9y ago
Wer reitet so spät durch Nacht und Wind? Es ist der Vater mit seinem Kind. -- Goethe Vale Pirsig
slvrspoon 9y ago
RIP RP. For those who are interested, a little more info to contribute... RP, apparently though I can't substantiate, was tested as having a "Genius level IQ" as an early child. After reading both ZMM and LILA carefully, I believe he has gotten as close as anyone to a philosophy that explains humanity and blends successfully eastern and western history and perspective on such. LILA is the serious effort and a far more important book, though it has gone largely ignored. Some interesting info for fans to dig into here: http://robertpirsig.org/AHP%20Transcript%203.html http://robertpirsig.org/AHP%20Transcript%203.html
winter11 9y ago
how did he die
winter11 9y ago
how did he die and when
gerbilly 9y ago
I read once somewhere that a reviewer said something along the lines of: "He didn't understand Zen and he didn't understand motorcycle maintenance either."[1] However I read it several times and I think that interpretation is very uncharitable. It is a touching big hearted story about a fractured person struggling to put himself back together while trying to connect with his son and while trying to figure out what it means to live 'the good life.'[2] If what he had was metal illness, I think that he might be an example of someone putting it to the best use possible. I'm honestly not sure if the MOQ holds up as philosophy or not, or even as a coherent mystical system. But I can say that I wish there were more books like it, that is to say: written by authors way on the fringe of mainstream thought. [1] My critique about the Zen aspect is that Buddhism is not something you theorize about, it is something you practice. To theorize about Buddhism would be like a guy who reads a lot about golf trivia, golf training, golf biographies, but does not play golf. Golf is a thing you do, an aspiration to get the ball into the little hole. It is something you have to embody and realize in yourself. Buddhism more resembles learning a sport or a craft than a philosophy. [2] Many of us should be so lucky to achieve even one of those things in a lifetime.
- cypherpunks01 9y ago
  That's funny, my 1999 edition opens with a 4 sentence Author's Note that ends with: "..it should in no way be associated with that great body of factual information relating to orthodox Zen Buddhist practice. It's not very factual on motorcycles either." Not sure if that was in the original?
  - dahart 9y ago
    That's in my 1975 copy.
  - gerbilly 9y ago
    Maybe that where i misremembered the quote from and assumed it was a reviewer. the fact that he pointed it out himself makes me respect the author even more.
  - deleted 9y ago
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botswana99 9y ago
There is a lot for an engineer to love in the ZMM -- fixing things, a meditation on screws, the quality of shims, and father-son story. It's tempting for a rational engineer to laugh at philosophy. But it's a quality book.
MrBra 9y ago
I remember reading his book years ago and thinking it was an amazing read. I don't remember much about it now and I will for sure take a look at it again. I highly suggest it!
luckydude 9y ago
I love the Zen book but did not understand it at all the first time I read it (somewhere in grade/high school). All I got the first time around was that it was sort of a boring book about a dude taking a motorcycle ride and there was a lot I skipped over. Read again when I was a bit more ready to hear it and wow, profound book. The church of reason lecture is awesome. And timeless. I hope this guy found some peace in his life, I did get the sense that he was struggling but that's just a guess.
jackhack 9y ago
For those who enjoyed "ZenATAOMM", I found another in a similar vein: "Shop Class as Soulcraft: An Inquiry into the Value of Work" "...author Matthew B. Crawford questions the educational imperative of turning everyone into a "knowledge worker," based on a misguided separation of thinking from doing. Using his own experience as an electrician and mechanic, Crawford presents a wonderfully articulated call for self-reliance and a moving reflection on how we can live concretely in an ever more abstract world." https://www.amazon.com/Shop-Class-Soulcraft-Inquiry-Value/dp/0143117467 https://www.amazon.com/Shop-Class-Soulcraft-Inquiry-Value/dp...
- randcraw 9y ago
  I really wanted to like Soulcraft, perhaps for an echo of ZAMM. But Crawford's writing lacks passion or verve, as only excess time in academia can do. Crawford's perspective remains strictly objective: ever the professor, never the investigator or mechanic. As I recall, the narrative lacks even a single hands on illustration akin to Pirsig's adjusting valves or shimming a handlebar, which left me unconvinced that the author had ever been one with his machines, much less with his thesis. Soulless. In contrast, John Jerome's "Truck" was a light-hearted but engaging foray into the rebuilding of a 1950 era pickup truck. It lacked the philosophical ambition of ZAMM or impact, but it was an agreeable read that left me wondering what kind of renovation project I might choose, toward gaining insights from dirty fingernails.
phlakaton 9y ago
I stumbled across this quote somewhere in my university days: "The errors of great [people] are venerable because they are more fruitful than the truths of little [people]." (It's Nietzsche reflecting on Schopenhauer IIUC – and it's a quote I think can apply equally well to Nietzsche himself!) I think this applies to a lot of the great writing I have loved, and perhaps Pirsig's ZAAMM falls into this bucket. After all, for all of its classical philosophical underpinnings and serious intent, it does not seem to have achieved much status as as work of philosophy. You won't find Pirsig's name (except in passing) in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, for example. The book is also over a generation old. I suppose there's a question, therefore, of whether it will endure as a book that future generations will draw inspiration and ideas from. Nevertheless, I think it stands admirably as a iconoclastic, genre-bashing, cross-pollinating, fascinating exploration of philosophical ideas, and, as Pirsig himself observed, as a "culture-bearer" of the time and place it was written. This makes it a classic of American writing as far as I am concerned, if not a classic treatise in philosophy. RIP, Mr. Pirsig.
simonebrunozzi 9y ago
I am surprised the article doesn't cite how his son Chris was murdered outside the San Francisco Zen Center in the '80s. I assume that single event changed Robert's life forever, and certainly inspired a lot of what went into Lila.
Arkaad 9y ago
"Zen was published in 1974, after being rejected by 121 publishing houses." 121 publishing houses...

655 points by molecule 9y ago

dap 9y ago

"Zen" has its strengths and weaknesses, but I found its discussion about "gumption traps" (Chapter 26, I believe) to be absolute, solid gold. Pirsig's description of what it's like to do gritty work on a complex system -- and all the logical, mental, and emotional blocks associated with that -- really resonated with my experience as a software engineer, and they've helped me get better at being aware of those blocks and getting past them. May he rest in peace.

nbanks 9y ago
The "gumption trap", both the term and the definition, is a great insight. I tend to find gumption traps really annoying and it's good to know why I'm annoyed and how to push through. When a friend of mine recommended the book he used this concept as the example of why it was amazing.
ngcazz 9y ago
I recommend having the book Working Effectively with Legacy Software by Michael Feathers in your library, as it is essentially a practical guide to techniques for minimising gumption traps in software engineering.

mmaunder 9y ago

RIP Phaedrus.

Insanity 9y ago

May he rest in peace. Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance was one of the first books on philosophy that I read outside of my philosophy curriculum at university and it stayed with me. It's a great book discussing the metaphysics of quality, but not just that. It's written in a captivating way, mixing both the 'food for thought' as well as a pleasant narative about a father and a son on a motorcycle trip. It's one of the philosophy books that I can recommend to people who are not directly interested in philosophy as well, which gave me some quite fun discussions with my friends about the topics in the book without being too deep into the philosophy itself.

vermontdevil 9y ago
I read it three times. Still trying to grasp everything. Will keep on reading it. Great book.
- sonabinu 9y ago
  It's one of the few books I've read multiple times! And it's still on my reading list.
- Insanity 9y ago
  I agree with you, it is a hard book to grasp everything in it in one go!

lanbanger 9y ago

It's no exaggeration to say that this book changed my life. I learned so much from it, and apply what I learned on a daily basis. I was only thinking a couple of weeks ago that it's time for another re-read: that's definitely the case now. RIP Robert M. Pirsig :-(

theprop 9y ago

And you think you're having troubles with your startup? "Zen was published in 1974, after being rejected by 121 publishing houses...then Pirsig lived reclusively and worked on his second book Lila for 17 years before its publication in 1991." "Quality is, how do you know what it is, or how do you know that it even exists? If no one knows what it is, then for all practical purposes it doesn't exist at all. But for all practical purposes it really does exist."

coderholic 9y ago
And his son (Chris in the book) was murdered in San Francisco!
- ternaryoperator 9y ago
  Your comment should have a spoiler alert.
  - mikestew 9y ago
    His son Chris was murdered long after the book was published, there is nothing spoiled unless you're really into the plot of postscripts of later editions. EDIT: (And, yeesh, it was forty years ago. What "spoiler"? BTW, Vader is Luke's father.)
    - ternaryoperator 9y ago
      Jeez, chill man. For some of us, the fact that we knew about this changed the book. Why be insulting just because you don't agree?
    - nicky0 9y ago
      I don't think you understand spoilers.
  - cypherpunks01 9y ago
    It's completely heartbreaking, but how is that a spoiler for the book? The book ends long before that tragedy.

maerF0x0 9y ago

I didnt understand apple until I read this book. Before then I was a total robot.

cirgue 9y ago
How do you mean?
- cypherpunks01 9y ago
  With no other context, I assume it means that since the book is in part an attempt to reconcile "romantic" and "classical" viewpoints, commenter was able to gain a new appreciation of the Apple design philosophy after reading the book.
logicallee 9y ago
I second the other comment. Please take a minute to expand your thoughts! I didn't read the book, but perhaps if you take a moment to write your thoughts, you will move some people to get and read the book as well :) your thoughts probably also stand on their own and could be interesting for people who have read the book.
- defined 9y ago
  RTFB! :)
maerF0x0 9y ago
There are two characters in the book. One rides a newer BMW motorcycle and only lets the technicians work on it and just wants it to work. The other has an older motorcycle that he just intuits how its operating, how it feels, what it needs. The former is afraid of technology and just sees it as a tool to get what he wants done (to get from A to B) . The latter values the feeling of the ride, the ritual of riding, the journey more than everything working out issue free etc. Before this book I couldnt understand why Apple existed, it exerted so much control over its users, it abstracted away the intimate details etc. Apple appeals to users because so many of them are afraid of being intimate with their tools, they just want it to work. I say i was a total robot because to me it was all about the facts. The fact was i could get a "higher spec" machine for less money and have more control over it. But I couldnt empathize with the Apple users. Now i get it.

andrewbinstock 9y ago

A wonderful book that I'm amazed ever got published. Still, as noted in wikipedia: "It was originally rejected by 121 publishers, more than any other bestselling book, according to the Guinness Book of Records." [edited to remove spoiler I shouldn't have mentioned -- my apologies]

mike_h 9y ago
Spoiler alert?
coss 9y ago
I was also shocked but come on man, spoilers.
- jfoutz 9y ago
  FWIW, i read and old copy, it lacked the afterword. I found out years later when talking to someone about the book. I get your point, but it wasn't part of the original work.
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sizzzzlerz 9y ago

Was there a US university philosophy class in the 70s and 80s that didn't include reading this book? Maybe outside the US, as well. Someone said about it that it was as much about riding and fixing motorcycles as Moby Dick was about whaling. Much like the book, I'm not sure I totally understand that but you can't deny its importance.

nickbauman 9y ago
It's a book about technology in general and our qualitative relationship to the things we make, really.
- chubot 9y ago
  Eh, that's doesn't really cover it either. I've always told me friends that it's about Western philosophy and mental illness. Those two subjects are covered just as much as Zen and Motorcycle maintenance. The parts about your relationship to the machine will definitely resonate with engineers, but that's not all it's about. I guess that is why it is a great book -- there's something for everyone and it can be read in multiple ways.
sswaner 9y ago
Not in my Philosphy Department (1989-1992). "That book may have brought you here, but we will focus on the original Phaedrus, followed by Descartes, Kant and Wittgenstein." I have read ZMM many times, it is on the short list of books that have had a profound influence on me. But in college I read a different set of philosophers.
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soufron 9y ago
I don't think it's very influent outside of the US.
- michaelhoney 9y ago

CurtMonash 9y ago

I wish more people had read that book. Anybody with some education in philosophy figures out that utter, logical-proof certainty can't be had. So what does one do for epistemology instead? There are two main alternatives: -- Religious-style faith. This is not my preferred choice. -- An aesthetically-tinged approach to epistemology. What I mean by the latter is, for example, generalizing Occam's Razor into usability. The problem with Occam's Razor is that it says, in effect, "In case of doubt go with the simpler answer", without giving a general way to judge what's simpler. Any solution to that problem winds up being an aesthetic kind of judgment.

abritinthebay 9y ago
Except that's not what Occam's Razor says and that problem comes from the awful and inaccurate simplification of it.
- derefr 9y ago
  It's sort of what the Minimum Message Length formulation says. It's hard to communicate the "essential meaning" of Occam's Razor in simple language, because the only good analogies for it involve things like compression algorithms, quantum physics or topology. If you know what the word "axiom" really means, and can picture an address of a thing in a set taking up space (e.g. bytes of a URL) as your query gets more specific, then Occam's Razor is a very "obvious" statement about the probability of reification of mathematical objects in our universe given their size. If you don't have that context, someone can talk for an hour and it won't communicate the point.
  - abritinthebay 9y ago
    > It's hard to communicate the "essential meaning" of Occam's Razor in simple language It's really not. Here's a few that don't make the same mistake. - Plurality must never be posited without necessity. - Among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected. - Entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity. - Whenever possible, substitute constructions out of known entities for inferences to unknown entities. - favor hypotheses that make the fewest unwarranted assumptions about the data from which they are derived. All of these are more correct and communicate the principles better than the "simplest" formulation which is just flat-out wrong without extremely heavy clarification of what "simplest" means (at which point you may as well use one of the above).

musgravepeter 9y ago

Easily the book I have re-read the most times.

dwe3000 9y ago

I don't remember how I came across it, but I remember reading it early in high school - 9th grade, I think - and loving it. While the philosophy was a great read, the ideas of understanding and caring for your equipment influenced my thoughts on all the technology I use, even if I'm not a mechanic.

oska 9y ago
I read it at about the same age and it had a similar impact on me.

coss 9y ago

Really enlightening book. Definitely among my top three of all time.

cm2012 9y ago

Not a fan of the book (it calls to mind an acid trip - the author sounds like he understands something deeper, but there's no clarity to it), but the author undeniably had a thought process different than the mainstream, which is always valuable.

rfrank 9y ago
I totally get you on your critique, but I think the ambiguity is somewhat intentional - think koans in Zen Buddhism. Haven't read it in over 10 years now, so if I were to read it again I might not think the same, however. He probably directly mentions the koans thing himself haha. Around the same time I read Way of the Peaceful Warrior by Dan Millman [1], and Illusions by Richard Bach [2], and felt they were both better than Zen. At the end of the day I think the real value of any of those texts is the introduction to philosophy/self-discovery in general, in a really accessible form. "A cloud does not know why it moves in just such a direction and at such a speed, it feels an impulsion... this is the place to go now. But the sky knows the reason and the patterns behind all clouds, and you will know, too, when you lift yourself high enough to see beyond horizons." - Illusions 1. https://www.amazon.com/Way-Peaceful-Warrior-Changes-Lives/dp/0915811898 https://www.amazon.com/Way-Peaceful-Warrior-Changes-Lives/dp... 2. https://www.amazon.com/Illusions-Adventures-Reluctant-Messiah-published/dp/B00E31NEB4/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1493083015&sr=1-2&keywords=illusions https://www.amazon.com/Illusions-Adventures-Reluctant-Messia...
alexpetralia 9y ago
This is exactly the same impression I had. While I appreciated his radical and unique perspective, I can't say I completely comprehended it.
jdietrich 9y ago
To my mind, the concept of upāya (skillful means) is essential. A particular teaching might not be literally true, but it's not necessarily false either. It might not make sense to you, but that might simply be because it's meant for someone else. There are core truths in Buddhist thought, but the route to understanding and internalising those truths is not necessarily straightforward or logical. I also dislike Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, but I can see that many other people found value in it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upaya https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upaya

pasbesoin 9y ago

I remember -- belatedly, after a few suggestions to do so -- reading "Zen" the summer after I graduated. I rarely notate in a book, but that copy ended up full of notes in the margins. At the time, I thought it was one of the most significant things I'd read. Of course, I was young, and it was a long time ago. (And then, life and injury and illness and... well, a distinct lack of quality happened, and I never got back to it.) I've been meaning, intending, lately, to reread it. Last year, I was invited into a book club. I've considered suggesting it -- I think I will. Quality. Eloquence, in a word. P.S. I've been thinking about getting a bike and riding for a summer. Adequate, but not overdone -- and quiet. Piece by piece, this rough idea has been sketching itself in. Don't know why I'm telling HN, this, or why you should care. Except that we all should care about quality. And about a man who thought and felt hard on the topic and in turn gave us much to think about. Reflected much of ourselves, to ourselves -- giving us eyes and ears into ourselves and our choices. Anyway...

nickbauman 9y ago

While I enjoyed the book, for me going back over it years later, in the afterword for the second edition: a crushing blow. It now overshadows the book for me. It describes the murder and aftermath many years later of his son that was featured in the novel. Here. I found it. Read it. :'( http://theaetetus.tamu.edu/online-texts/zen/zen-afterword.html http://theaetetus.tamu.edu/online-texts/zen/zen-afterword.ht...

bigjust 9y ago
This was the edition I first read. I distinctly remember after finishing it for the first time, and for some reason immediately starting the afterword, that having such a crushing affect after finishing the book, i really think it ruined my mood, and thus dampened the memory.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
isoprophlex 9y ago
Man that's a hammer to the head. I don't remember my copy having this afterword, thanks for linking to it.
thesmallestcat 9y ago
You have to wonder what his son said to earn that treatment.
- jackhack 9y ago
  There is no reasoning nor bargaining with evil. It simply is, and its job is to destroy.
  - thesmallestcat 9y ago
    Did you read it? Chris said something which the witnesses could not hear. His assailant became angrier. Chris then said something that made him even more furious. He jammed the knife into Chris's chest. There's "evil," and then there's turning a mugging into getting knifed in the chest. Unless you're saying that this was the norm for SF muggings in the 80's. It's pretty likely that 22 year-old guy acted smart. That doesn't make it right, all I said was that I'd be interested in what exactly he said to provoke the response.

accountyaccount 9y ago

There's a lot to pick at about the book, but it's a great introduction to some basic philosophical concepts.

temp246810 9y ago

>>>"The book is brilliant beyond belief," wrote Morrow editor James Landis before publication. "It is probably a work of genius and will, I'll wager, attain classic status." Amazing when things like that are foretold. (Yes I know, survivorship bias blah blah)

shirazi 9y ago

Very sad to hear this news. May he rest in peace.

Turing_Machine 9y ago

"Phædrus' provocation informed the Chairman that his substantive field was now philosophy, not English composition. However, he said, the division of study into substantive and methodological fields was an outgrowth of the Aristotelian dichotomy of form and substance, which nondualists had little use for, the two being identical. He said he wasn't sure, but the thesis on Quality appeared to turn into an anti-Aristotelian thesis. If this was true he had chosen an appropriate place to present it. Great Universities proceeded in a Hegelian fashion and any school which could not accept a thesis contradicting its fundamental tenets was in a rut. This, Phædrus claimed, was the thesis the University of Chicago was waiting for. He admitted the claim was grandiose and that value judgments were actually impossible for him to make since no person could be an impartial judge of his own cause. But if someone else were to produce a thesis which purported to be a major breakthrough between Eastern and Western philosophy, between religious mysticism and scientific positivism, he would think it of major historic importance, a thesis which would place the University miles ahead. In any event, he said, no one was really accepted in Chicago until he'd rubbed someone out. It was time Aristotle got his."

vr46 9y ago

The conclusion to one of my favourite sections: "In other words, any true German mechanic, with a half-century of mechanical finesse behind him, would have concluded that this particular solution to this particular technical problem was perfect." Anyone else remember that bit? I now ride a big BMW R1200RT. I wonder if this book influenced me to do that? RIP Mr Pirsig

mikestew 9y ago
If anything, the book would have kept me away from the clueless, snooty BMW riders that don't have a clue about their bikes. Real riders like Pirsig ride Hondas, just like I did for most of my riding career. :-) -- Signed, Owner of a '14 R1200GSA
- jacquesm 9y ago
  It took me a while to make sense of that. Apologies for the (corrected) downvote.
  - mikestew 9y ago
    Why would you downvote it in the first place? That's exactly how John in the book struck me. I'd even argue that it was kind of the point of the section that was quoted.
- pfd1986 9y ago
  I'm sad to say I'm a clueless Honda driver myself (shadow spirit 750). But his book inspired to get the manual and start working thru it. Hopefully by the summer I'm making my first adjustments.
- vr46 9y ago
  Yes, me too - I dismissed BMWs as bikes for the middle-aged, which is why I bought one once I became middle-aged :)
randcraw 9y ago
Pirsig's displeasure at John's disrespect for using a strip cut from an aluminum beer can as a handgrip spacer on John's lah-dee-dah BMW -- who can forget that? That vignette served as the main example of Pirsig's "quality" and how easily the rose-colored glasses of provincialism can distract us from seeing it.

cypherpunks01 9y ago

If you love the book and haven't seen the other photos from the trip, check them out—it's 12 photos Pirsig took during the summer 1968 trip! Pirsig sent them to a professor who was doing ZMM-related research: http://venturearete.org/ResearchProjects/ProfessorGurr/gallery/Pictures-Robert-Pirsigs-original-1968-trip http://venturearete.org/ResearchProjects/ProfessorGurr/galle...

mikestew 9y ago
Thanks for the link, I hadn't seen but one of those pictures before. And for those thinking a 900lb. Honda Goldwing is required for cross-country travel, Pirsig's bike was Honda Hawk 305, as in 305cc. It put out 28 horsepower. I'll bet there are scooters today that put out more power. And Pirsig loaded it with two people and camping gear and rode it cross-country.
- jeremysmyth 9y ago
  Yeah but bear in mind the maintenance became a significant part of the experience (motorcycle maintenance is not just in the title for decoration). Some people prefer not to do that.
- awfgylbcxhrey 9y ago
  There are vastly more vehicles on the road today, and people expect to maintain higher average speeds. Also, maintaining speed becomes exhausting on smaller bikes, for a variety of reasons.

camperman 9y ago

My introduction to Quality Without a Name and motorcycling. I still ride and still appreciate engineering that somehow manages to be greater than just the sum of its parts: the Leica M3, the Blackbird SR71, the HP 12C.

Baeocystin 9y ago
It was Quality that helped my understand why, exactly, I was (and am) so attached to my old HP 48 SX.
- rout39574 9y ago
  Preach it! I now own four and have addicted my son to RPN.
  - Baeocystin 9y ago
    I have my main one + two verified working ebay specials within arms' reach. (HN being one of the few places I can not only admit this, but get good-natured grief for using the 'new' models. :D) I also have another saved up, ready to give my younger brother-in-law as he prepares for engineering classes. I plan on getting him as addicted to RPN as the rest of us.
- gonzo 9y ago
  HP 41SX? That's new! HP 41C!
DonaldFisk 9y ago
Quality without a definition, surely. Quality Without a Name was Christopher Alexander's idea, described in A Timeless Way of Building. Though the two are related. I've read both ZatAoMM and Lila, and can recommend both.
- camperman 9y ago
  Whoops - you're quite right. QWAN is Christopher Alexander.

cypherpunks01 9y ago

"Normally screws are so cheap and small and simple you think of them as unimportant. But now, as your Quality awareness becomes stronger, you realize that this one, individual, particular screw is neither cheap nor small nor unimportant. Right now this screw is worth exactly the selling price of the whole motorcycle, because the motorcycle is actually valueless until you get the screw out. With this reevaluation of the screw comes a willingness to expand your knowledge of it."

mmaunder 9y ago
Every carb I've rebuilt has benefited from those words.
- Neliquat 9y ago
  Indeed. For extra goodness, buy a few packs of stainless allen head screws to replace the cadnium plated steel ones that always strip. They always strip, because they are not phillips, but JIS screws. The dot on the head gives it away.
  - mmaunder 9y ago
    Funny. I learned that about 8 months ago. Wondering if we watched the same YouTube video.
dap 9y ago
Solid gold. I just commented elsewhere about the gumption trap chapter, but the whole chapter this passage comes from is similarly insightful -- maybe more so.
mtempm 9y ago
I read this in high school and years later in university learned economists named this concept 'marginal utility.' It's an important concept to understand in many aspects of life. In social and economic policy, it's important to remember resources are allocated per marginal utility, not by what they're worth. I.E. water is worth more to me than music, but I spend more money on music than water, and the music industry makes more than public water utilities. Seems obvious when stated like that, but it's often forgotten I find.

matt4077 9y ago

There's a rather negative critique floating around that someone is bound to post, sooner than later. And it is, in itself, worth reading. It's possibly even right–I read both the book and the critique twice, and came away believing both, somewhat paradoxically. But I wish to make the case that the book is worth reading for its literary value alone. The narrative parts are a gentle, beautiful telling of this father/son trip across the northwest, and reading it will leave you with enjoying nature (or, more generally, reality) with something like a calm optimism.

fineline 9y ago
Agreed, Zen and the Art has real narrative value - including considerable suspense - whether you buy the philosophy or not. And frankly I do, despite understanding why some call it hippy pseudo-psychology. His second book Lila goes into it more methodically - but the literary narrative there is not so taught, kind of sadder.
ep103 9y ago
What's the critique? I've never heard of it.
- stinkytaco 9y ago
  That he's a "phony, self-congratulatory, pretentious buffoon" according to the top rated review on Goodreads [1]. That it's new-age, pseudo-psychology masquerading as philosophy. I don't share these views, personally. But knowing a fair few philosophers myself, I think the Analytic school is powerful in the US. Dominated by figures like Bertrand Russell, who rely on a formal grammar and logical syntax. Philosophy is a science in this view and there's no room for narrative. ZatAoMM falls into the Continental school and has more in common in its approach with figures like Nietzsche and Marx, relying on a narrative or historical approach. Neither of those particular figures, nor the Continental school in general, are much in vogue and thus I think Zen gets rejected for being both Continental and popular. [1]:http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/16210395 http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/16210395 EDIT: It's also frequently observed that Pirsig offers nothing new to philosophy. This is probably correct. I think the narrative aspect is what really separates the work. I found this while searching around a bit looking for further information, and it really sums up what I feel is ZatAoMM's greatest contribution: 'hat makes Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance superlative (and unique, to my knowledge) is that Pirsig successfully blended the history of philosophy with the history of his psyche, allegorizing each into the other." [2] [2]:https://www.quora.com/What-do-philosophers-think-about-Zen-and-the-Art-of-Motorcycle-Maintenance/answer/Matt-Kundert https://www.quora.com/What-do-philosophers-think-about-Zen-a...

rgrieselhuber 9y ago

I was kind of a punk in high school and I was in a week-long suspension room for skipping a bunch of classes. The room monitor was this cool older dude with a long beard who talked a lot about life, philosophy, and things like that. We weren't allowed to read or do anything but sit in boredom during suspension (school rules) but he made an exception for me if I wanted to read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance (at his recommendation). I bought a copy and brought it to suspension the next day, read the whole thing that week. Good memories thanks to the room monitor dude and an excellent book.

cypherpunks01 9y ago
That totally sounds like a scene from Freaks and Geeks involving hippie guidance counselor Mr. Rosso.
stickfigure 9y ago
This is such a strange punishment. Kid stupidly deprives himself of learning, so to discourage it, we deprive him of another week's worth?
- dclowd9901 9y ago
  Strange and prevalent (at least in the US). Every state I've lived in has some form of this, be it in-school or out-of-school suspension. It seems like a way to train kids for prison. It's mostly just a way to keep them from disrupting others; in other words, it's the easiest way to deal with the kid (with no thought toward helping them).

mtempm 9y ago

It's amazing public schools are permitted to do this. There's nothing for the kid to grow from in a child sitting around doing nothing. Children grow from experiences and challenges. Minds forced into isolation with no stimulation are stunted, and there's scientific evidence to support that. Obviously one week is not going to make or break a person, but this school policy is exceptionally ignorant.

rgrieselhuber 9y ago
Agreed. Public schools, in my opinion, are as much about control as they are education.
ams6110 9y ago
So what's your solution to make the kid stop skipping classes?
- rgrieselhuber 9y ago
  Make school interesting. Actually, learning how to code and learning Japanese changed my life in this regard. I didn't know how to teach myself things until those two things happened, once I did, pretty much everything else opened up to me.
  - udkl 9y ago
    Learning Japaneeses opened up your life ? I'm now much curious about your story.
    - rgrieselhuber 9y ago
      Yup. I got interested in Japan after reading Shogun as a kid. When I was in college, I finally had the chance to study it well and they had a great program. What I learned there taught me how to learn in general, which I then used to learn Computer Science, which opened up a bunch more for me.

ffdixon1 9y ago

I must have ready ZMM at least seven times (so far) in my life. Back when I was taking an undergraduate, I read it the first time and was inspired to take as many English courses as I could. I wanted to be a technical writer. After a series of co-op work-terms in the field (the companies loved a tech writer who could also program), I landed a full-time job as a technical writer in a large telecommunications company. I would read ZMM on the bus to work for inspiration. Pirsig could write with such clarity that I tried to emulate him in my writing (as I'm sure all poor writers do). I eventually returned to programming as it was my first love. The job as a tech writer definitely improved my writing skills, and reading ZMM definitely improved my life.

roymurdock 9y ago
Pynchon worked as a technical writer for Boeing, and Vonnegut worked as a publicist for GE. You can see how their appreciation of tech shaped their future work. You're in good company!
- stinkytaco 9y ago
  Also Ted Chiang, who is a technical writer for Microsoft.

DubiousPusher 9y ago

Zen is still a great gateway text into philosophies Eastern and Western. It's nice he lived to a ripe old age.

oska 9y ago

A couple of other obituaries: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/24/books/robert-pirsig-dead-wrote-zen-and-the-art-of-motorcycle-maintenance.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/24/books/robert-pirsig-dead-... http://www.latimes.com/local/obituaries/la-me-robert-pirsig-obituary-20170424-story.html http://www.latimes.com/local/obituaries/la-me-robert-pirsig-...

udkl 9y ago

If you are thinking of purchasing this book from the kindle store, buy the mass market paper book for $3.99 and then matchbook it to get the kindle version for $2. This way you end up with 2 copies for the price of the standalone kindle version and you can give one away. I borrowed the book from the public library just last week.

pfd1986 9y ago
Thanks!! I just bought it a couple months ago and wasn't aware of the matchbook option.

westoncb 9y ago

I read a little over half of ZMM about a year ago, and there's one aspect of it that caught my attention which I'm surprised to not see mentioned here. He gives a break down of a certain style of thinking about things where you break the subject down into parts and the relationships between the parts. He gives examples in technical writing that this process has a degree of arbitrariness to it. His circumscribing the general process of conceptualizing things suggests that the process itself has limits, and while valuable, is not everything (despite the tendency of certain mentalities to see things that way. He has an ongoing contrast between himself who is inclined to think that way and others who aren't.) I see this as a bridge to understanding Eastern philosophy's low opinion of language and penchant for indirect explanations.

bariswheel 9y ago

Rest in peace, Mr. Robert Pirsig. Your books stimulated and entertained my intellect during my high school/undergrad years, served as a gateway to get a better grip on philosophy in general, and had a lasting influence on me this day. Thank you for sharing your life with us.

baali 9y ago

I had finished reading the book(ZAAMM) recently. I have been sharing its snippets with friends and talking over them. I found it really insightful and reflective.

a_d 9y ago

I spent a long summer in 1998 researching the life of Mr Pirsig. Here is some little known trivia - some of the years when he disappeared, were spent in Banaras Hindu University (Varanasi, India) with Prof Mukherjee (head of the philosophy department) learning about Indian (Hindu) philosophy. I met Prof MUkherjee, who was retired by the time I went looking for him. I tracked him down and asked him if he remembered Mr Robert Pirsig (I took a picture that I had printed from the internet). He told me about a curious "American fellow" who used to "audit" the classes in the philosophy department, hang around the library and the canteen - and would seek him out to have discussions with him. He said that he was very quiet and nice guy. Interestingly, Prof Mukherjee had no idea that Mr Pirsig has written this cult book or that he was a famous author/philosopher. To him, he was just an odd student (because of his age). I wrote about this in our campus newspaper - but no one cared. I thought that I was the only fan of Mr Pirsig in this small town in India. Once I found the internet I discovered that I wasn't alone. It was a great feeling. Anyway, i was very proud that he went to the same university that i went to. It was exciting to learn that in 1998! Also, while i didn't fully get the philosophy-the father and son journey in Zen really meant a lot to me while growing up. Edit: by the way, Prof Mukherjee is mentioned in his book "Lila", and that is how I found him. Edit2: "Lila", the name of Mr Pirsig's second book, seems to have been inspired by his stay in Varanasi (India). In Sanskrit, the word Lila is "a way of describing all reality, including the cosmos, as the outcome of creative play by the divine". Someone on Wikipedia also seems to have made this connection: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lila:_An_Inquiry_into_Morals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lila:_An_Inquiry_into_Morals Edit3: I spent the last hour digging into a 15-year-old hard drive (oh, what painful fun). I found a folder with my notes on Robert Pirsig! Most interestingly, my meeting notes with Dr. Mukherjee. I gave him the book and he flipped through the chapter for 20 minutes reading the sections I had underlined (where his name was mentioned). This frail man of seventy, said with a smile on his face: "He must not have been an attentive student. I never taught him this way". Most of the notes are about him reminiscing about the "golden years" of the philosophy department when according to him many great philosophers came to visit and study at the philosophy department at Banaras Hindu University.

icc97 9y ago
Perhaps you should put your notes online?

craneca0 9y ago

“You want to know how to paint a perfect painting? It's easy. Make yourself perfect and then just paint naturally.”

anigbrowl 9y ago

We weren't allowed to read or do anything but sit in boredom during suspension (school rules) What kind of fucking school discourages people from reading even if they're in detention. Stories like this make me glad I didn't grow up in the USA.

rgrieselhuber 9y ago
Luckily we also had some great teachers. Several of the teachers there got me on the right path in a lot of ways. The problem with schools in the US is it really is luck of the draw in terms of who you come into contact with.
- timr 9y ago
  Your comments on schools and Japanese strike me as extremely ironic. As someone who has been sitting in a Japanese school for the better part of a year, I'll take the average American school, any day, any time. Japanese teachers' first love is unquestioning obedience. Their second love is robotic memorization. Creative, effective education is somewhere around the bottom of the priority list. (I realize that your broader point is that learning the language made you able to learn, but it's still situationally ironic. Also, from the parent comment, I suspect that you believe that "schools in the US" are somehow inherently worse than other places.)
  - rgrieselhuber 9y ago
    Well I've only attended K-12 in the US, so I have nothing to compare to but I can speak from my own experience. I was never thrilled with the administration at the schools I went to but had life-improving encounters with some of the staff, which is my point. Perhaps I over-generalized that to all schools with the US. As far as growing up in a Japanese school, I totally agree. I'd take the American school over that system any day of the week.
unethical_ban 9y ago
I loathe this comment. When I find a person on HN or reddit who comes off as an ass, I look up their recent comment history to see if it's an anomaly or a pattern. Without further context, I hope you recognize your hypocrisy when you plead with someone asking them not to treat "entertainment" as "Hollywood". The person above gives an anecdote from an unknown decade, and an unknown city of an unknown part of one of the most diverse countries in the world. And you cast aside the entire American experience because of it. Your comment had no purpose.

amy12xx 9y ago

I found the road trip part of the book enjoyable, but the philosophy (Quality) talk a bit drawn out and something I didn't get. Have been intermittently reading it, but haven't finished it yet.

cedex12 9y ago
Same situation for me. I find the philosophy to be too judgemental, and the belief that Quality is the metaphysical key to the understanding of the world seems really overstretched.
- fineline 9y ago
  As I understood, it boils down to: Quality is the cutting edge of experience, which is the totality of any "reality" we can know. Things like science, religion, etc. are static value patterns that we assemble to explain that experience, and that allow us to use a process of "static latching" (from Lila) to climb higher up the mountain of quality. Whilst possibly a gross over-simplification, I do find this perspective a really practical philosophy for personal growth as well as a good basecamp for approaching other philosophical viewpoints.

runevault 9y ago

I've owned the ebook of Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance for years but never read it. I think I need to finally make time for that book.

inimino 9y ago

This book was on my reading list for many years, and I finally read it a couple years ago. A wonderful book. Highly recommended to anyone who likes reading. It's not just the philosophy and it's not just the story, it's the way they are part of the same whole, with deep roots in the American landscape, that makes this book so special. Now I want to revisit it and see if I can pick up his later work as well. If you still haven't read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, do yourself a favor and pick up a copy.

dustinkirkland 9y ago

I've (re-)read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance every time I've bought a motorcycle [1997, 1998, 1999, 2003, 2014]. Pirsig's concept of "quality" sticks with me in every decision I make as a parent, engineer, and product manager. RIP, Mr. Pirsig.

HAL9OOO 9y ago

I never post here but this saddens me greatly, his ideas spoke to me on another level.

emmelaich 9y ago

Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance is not a very good book but it is a good book. I loved it and will always remember it when I have forgotten many other books. It is not a 'philosophy' book but it is quite philosophical. It's worth a read but it's slow in parts. Push yourself through or skip a few chapters. Like many other readers my favourite part is the drink can as shim.

fineline 9y ago
I used this many years ago with friends (a touring band) on the side of a German autobahn on a ~10metre coach that was shearing its wheel studs, not so much as a shim but to hold the new studs in place until the nuts torqued up. We all enjoyed drinking the beers required to get the job done too.

iaw 9y ago

My first thought: why is that name so familiar? My second: Oh. Pirsig's book was there for me during a challenging time of my life. I never finished it, but I'm not so confident that I really needed to. Just starting the book in many ways can be enough.

seanxh 9y ago

“I think its important now to tie care to Quality by pointing out that care and Quality are internal and external aspects of the same thing. A person who sees Quality and feels it as he works is a person who cares. A person who cares about what he sees and does is a person whos bound to have some characteristics of Quality” Thank you and RIP Mr.Pirsig

rmc 9y ago

Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance is a great philosophy book, but kinda rubbish as a motorcycle travel book. I recommend Jupiters Travels (from the same era) for an excellent motorcycle travel book.

breeze_em_out 9y ago

Let me guess, there will mysteriously be no black bar.

arh68 9y ago

A thought occurred to me the other day. What if it's not so good to "be one with the bicycle" ? What I mean is, I feel the narrator identifies too strongly with the machine. The frustrations of the machine translate directly to him, leading to crap avoiding gumption traps. Like composition v. inheritance, you don't always want to become the thing, you just want to use it. It's dangerous to become a thing, especially one without any Quality. Maybe I resonate more strongly now with the BMW driver. I don't know. Maybe I didn't really understand the book.

ruleabidinguser 9y ago
>. It's dangerous to become a thing, Why?
philtar 9y ago
What you missed, is that you do not become the thing, you already are the thing. You just need to realize it.
ep103 9y ago
Because it isn't about the bicycle. What are you doing, right now? (Besides posting on the internet). What are you working towards? That's the bicycle. And if you are spending your time working on it or towards it, then that means it is something you value. And if it is something you value, then "becoming one with it" as you put it, will allow you to both do better at the task/goal, as well as reap a more rewarding experience from pursuing that task/goal. You could take the opposite approach, and not truly value any thing that you do, but I a) am not sure that could be rewarding and b) am not sure that is possible. As DFW said, everybody worships something, whether they know it or not. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI) So the book takes the opposite perspective. It says, well, whatever you are working on is what you value. Whatever you spend your time on is what you value. And if you can remember to truly embrace the things you value, or conversely, ensure you spend your time pursuing the things you truly value, then your experiences towards those topics/goals/tasks will be more rewarding and as a result, your life can be more enriching as well.

dugditches 9y ago

If anyone hasn't heard this(hour long): http://www.cbc.ca/player/play/2623057085 http://www.cbc.ca/player/play/2623057085 An interview with someone who interviewed Pirsig. With clips from that original interview. Very, very good radio. From personal relation to the book. When I was young I went on a motorcycle trip on the back of my father's motorcycle, with his friend and son. We pulled into a small rural gas station, and there was a younger guy filling up a small foreign car. And he just started laughing upon talking to us. He had just taken time off his undergrad after reading a book about man and his son on a motorcycle trip. And wrote the name down on the back of our map. While I was far to young to understand the book at first, reading it over again and again as I got older it was a different learning experience each time as I grew.

fineline 9y ago
It has spoken in a changing but relevant way to me each decade that I have read it.

fineline 9y ago

Wer reitet so spät durch Nacht und Wind? Es ist der Vater mit seinem Kind. -- Goethe Vale Pirsig

slvrspoon 9y ago

RIP RP. For those who are interested, a little more info to contribute... RP, apparently though I can't substantiate, was tested as having a "Genius level IQ" as an early child. After reading both ZMM and LILA carefully, I believe he has gotten as close as anyone to a philosophy that explains humanity and blends successfully eastern and western history and perspective on such. LILA is the serious effort and a far more important book, though it has gone largely ignored. Some interesting info for fans to dig into here: http://robertpirsig.org/AHP%20Transcript%203.html http://robertpirsig.org/AHP%20Transcript%203.html

winter11 9y ago

how did he die

winter11 9y ago

how did he die and when

gerbilly 9y ago

I read once somewhere that a reviewer said something along the lines of: "He didn't understand Zen and he didn't understand motorcycle maintenance either."[1] However I read it several times and I think that interpretation is very uncharitable. It is a touching big hearted story about a fractured person struggling to put himself back together while trying to connect with his son and while trying to figure out what it means to live 'the good life.'[2] If what he had was metal illness, I think that he might be an example of someone putting it to the best use possible. I'm honestly not sure if the MOQ holds up as philosophy or not, or even as a coherent mystical system. But I can say that I wish there were more books like it, that is to say: written by authors way on the fringe of mainstream thought. [1] My critique about the Zen aspect is that Buddhism is not something you theorize about, it is something you practice. To theorize about Buddhism would be like a guy who reads a lot about golf trivia, golf training, golf biographies, but does not play golf. Golf is a thing you do, an aspiration to get the ball into the little hole. It is something you have to embody and realize in yourself. Buddhism more resembles learning a sport or a craft than a philosophy. [2] Many of us should be so lucky to achieve even one of those things in a lifetime.

cypherpunks01 9y ago
That's funny, my 1999 edition opens with a 4 sentence Author's Note that ends with: "..it should in no way be associated with that great body of factual information relating to orthodox Zen Buddhist practice. It's not very factual on motorcycles either." Not sure if that was in the original?
- dahart 9y ago
  That's in my 1975 copy.
- gerbilly 9y ago
  Maybe that where i misremembered the quote from and assumed it was a reviewer. the fact that he pointed it out himself makes me respect the author even more.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]

botswana99 9y ago

There is a lot for an engineer to love in the ZMM -- fixing things, a meditation on screws, the quality of shims, and father-son story. It's tempting for a rational engineer to laugh at philosophy. But it's a quality book.

MrBra 9y ago

I remember reading his book years ago and thinking it was an amazing read. I don't remember much about it now and I will for sure take a look at it again. I highly suggest it!

luckydude 9y ago

I love the Zen book but did not understand it at all the first time I read it (somewhere in grade/high school). All I got the first time around was that it was sort of a boring book about a dude taking a motorcycle ride and there was a lot I skipped over. Read again when I was a bit more ready to hear it and wow, profound book. The church of reason lecture is awesome. And timeless. I hope this guy found some peace in his life, I did get the sense that he was struggling but that's just a guess.

jackhack 9y ago

For those who enjoyed "ZenATAOMM", I found another in a similar vein: "Shop Class as Soulcraft: An Inquiry into the Value of Work" "...author Matthew B. Crawford questions the educational imperative of turning everyone into a "knowledge worker," based on a misguided separation of thinking from doing. Using his own experience as an electrician and mechanic, Crawford presents a wonderfully articulated call for self-reliance and a moving reflection on how we can live concretely in an ever more abstract world." https://www.amazon.com/Shop-Class-Soulcraft-Inquiry-Value/dp/0143117467 https://www.amazon.com/Shop-Class-Soulcraft-Inquiry-Value/dp...

randcraw 9y ago
I really wanted to like Soulcraft, perhaps for an echo of ZAMM. But Crawford's writing lacks passion or verve, as only excess time in academia can do. Crawford's perspective remains strictly objective: ever the professor, never the investigator or mechanic. As I recall, the narrative lacks even a single hands on illustration akin to Pirsig's adjusting valves or shimming a handlebar, which left me unconvinced that the author had ever been one with his machines, much less with his thesis. Soulless. In contrast, John Jerome's "Truck" was a light-hearted but engaging foray into the rebuilding of a 1950 era pickup truck. It lacked the philosophical ambition of ZAMM or impact, but it was an agreeable read that left me wondering what kind of renovation project I might choose, toward gaining insights from dirty fingernails.

phlakaton 9y ago

I stumbled across this quote somewhere in my university days: "The errors of great [people] are venerable because they are more fruitful than the truths of little [people]." (It's Nietzsche reflecting on Schopenhauer IIUC – and it's a quote I think can apply equally well to Nietzsche himself!) I think this applies to a lot of the great writing I have loved, and perhaps Pirsig's ZAAMM falls into this bucket. After all, for all of its classical philosophical underpinnings and serious intent, it does not seem to have achieved much status as as work of philosophy. You won't find Pirsig's name (except in passing) in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, for example. The book is also over a generation old. I suppose there's a question, therefore, of whether it will endure as a book that future generations will draw inspiration and ideas from. Nevertheless, I think it stands admirably as a iconoclastic, genre-bashing, cross-pollinating, fascinating exploration of philosophical ideas, and, as Pirsig himself observed, as a "culture-bearer" of the time and place it was written. This makes it a classic of American writing as far as I am concerned, if not a classic treatise in philosophy. RIP, Mr. Pirsig.

simonebrunozzi 9y ago

I am surprised the article doesn't cite how his son Chris was murdered outside the San Francisco Zen Center in the '80s. I assume that single event changed Robert's life forever, and certainly inspired a lot of what went into Lila.

Arkaad 9y ago

"Zen was published in 1974, after being rejected by 121 publishing houses." 121 publishing houses...