10 ms·

This was a fascinating read. The money quote, in summary form: * The flight was technically a Republic Airlines flight subcontracting for United Airlines. * A

by dsacco 10y ago

This was a fascinating read. The money quote, in summary form: * The flight was technically a Republic Airlines flight subcontracting for United Airlines. * Almost none of the staff involved worked directly for United Airlines; they are subcontractors required to wear United Airlines' branded uniforms. * Republic Airlines is bankrupt, and none of the parties involved in the lawsuit has attempted to shift blame to them. * United Airlines is capable of bypassing union wage requirements by subcontracting through partner airlines, so they have a vested interest in keeping Republic afloat through its bankruptcy (and therefore, discreetly accepting blame). * The plaintiffs have a vested interest in suing United Airlines, not Republic, because Republic would likely be shielded from paying much if anything due to its current financial standing.

ryandrake 10y ago
The infuriating thing about all of this is how deliberately obfuscated and phony everything is: * Airline employees who aren't quite airline employees * Cops who aren't quite cops * Reserved seats that aren't quite reserved Doesn't anyone honestly sell a real product that you can take at face value anymore?
- flukus 10y ago
  This rubbish is everywhere. Contract cleaning (offices etc) for instance, used to be a profitable small business. Not enough to be rich, but enough for a big house with some decent amenities and to raise a family on a single income. Then in the 90's these gigs went into a pyramid of contracting and sub contracting companies where the company buying the service is paying more but the grunt doing the work is lucky to be on minimum wage. At a time where small business software should have been making these middle men completely useless they were getting bigger than ever.
  - dba7dba 10y ago
    I can vouch for this story. My parents went through this scenario exactly. They had gotten into office cleaning because it was relatively well paying in the 90's. But in the 90's middle men came into the mix. Someone with better sales ability would win the contract for cleaning office, and subcontract it to someone else. And even that 2nd person might subcontract it to someone else. Eventually, the person really doing the actual cleaning barely made above minimum wage. What does MBA school call this? Reducing cost? Increasing efficiency? Reducing risk?
    - tarsinge 10y ago
      Intrigued by how can it be cost competitive for the middle men, why aren't small business selling directly? Is the sales part the only edge of middle men?
      - edent 10y ago
        Because a small company has the ability to supply cleaning to X square metres across one city. A middle-man can say "We will supply your cleaning in several cities no matter your office size." So a company pays a higher cost - but only has to deal with one contract, which saves them effort elsewhere. It's the same as taxi companies. It would be cheaper for you to call a small firm with lower overheads, but you're happy to pay a premium for convenience.
        leni536 10y ago
        Hmm, Uber for office cleaning?
        flukus 10y ago
        So the yellow pages was basically just an uber uber?
        flukus 10y ago
        A lot of this played out with single location companies and single city contracting companies (before they start merging). So I don't think that's the reason. I suspect it was cost. The middle men would just under bid and then under deliver.
        djsumdog 10y ago
        You need the pigs. They're helping all the animals. That horse isn't really going to the glue factory. We just reused that glue factory truck, but really he was going to a retirement home (paraphrasing Orwell's Animal Farm). When people plant themselves in the middle, they essentially sell themselves as being necessary. Are they necessary? It depends .. but usually not.
  - madaxe_again 10y ago
    Everything is marketing bullshit - I spent a decade running an ecommerce agency and got to see the bellies of many beasts. For instance, there's a pig related tea brand in the UK which is universally seen as funky and independent and all that shite. They're owned by tetley, who are in turn owned by tata. The ownership structure is sufficiently complex to make them look independent - but they aren't. It's just good marketing. Either way, this is just one of many examples that spring to mind - oh, also, call centres - in the U.K. you can call pretty much any large business you like and you'll be talking to one of two huge call centre operators. Then... where do you draw the line? Is private equity backing problematic when its obfuscated? Or just contract primacy?
    - fennecfoxen 10y ago
      Oh, TeaPigs? With the dachshund mascot on the Darjeeling Earl Grey, and the brown-paper boxes, and the overpriced wares? Yeah, you can get those everywhere; they're clearly _way_ too mass-market to be properly independent. If you're spending cash money the on indie feel of things, you'll be buying BigCorp sooner or later. Better to just buy quality. > Then... where do you draw the line? Is private equity backing problematic when its obfuscated? Or just contract primacy? Well, we're taught that the free market is efficient only when you have property rights, low barriers to entry, and low transaction costs. While monopoly issues get most of the antitrust press, I suspect that a lot of the other things people don't like about BigCorp world and the gig economy is the way that high transaction costs around hiring, firing, and most especially, contracts of all sorts. Any time these issues are complex and involve expensive lawyers, BigCorp tends to win. It's at the roots of a lot of problems these days.
      - madaxe_again 10y ago
        Yeah, them - they're essentially an independent business unit of Tata global. One thing that I found consistently interesting was that more often than not, their employees thought they were working for a small, independent business - and the principles would often use "we're only little" in negotiations. When you manufacture a reality for long enough it becomes real - at least, real enough in the minds of beholders that any opposing reality is dismissed as priggish or jealous.
- killjoywashere 10y ago
  Please tell me you the ToS for every online service, every time it's updated. The internet-enabled side of industry virtually invented this modus operandi.
  - TeMPOraL 10y ago
    > The internet-enabled side of industry virtually I see what you did there. Are Internet services even obligated to notify you when they change their ToS, or do I really have to run a script every night that diffs the current ToS with last recorded one, for every service I use?
- taurath 10y ago
  Microsoft employees that aren't Microsoft employees..
  - rootsudo 10y ago
    Yep, Wipro, Experis and Unisys are popular now for MSFT.
- djsumdog 10y ago
  Contracted pilots are often paid peanuts too. Some non-union pilots are even on food stamps. They might even be better off driving for Uber, and that's kinda terrible.
  - wfunction 10y ago
    This is crazy! Any sources for this?
    - cjrp 10y ago
      http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/Mesa http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/Mesa - First Officer (copilot) in their first year at the company makes $19/hour, and is guaranteed 76 hours/month. Equates to $17,328 pre-tax. It's why so many regional pilots commute, because they can't afford to live near the major airport which they're based at. The result is fatigued or sick (no pay if you call in sick) pilots operating these flights. But hey, supply and demand. They wouldn't be able to pay so little if pilots weren't applying, and that won't change anytime soon because flying at a regional for a few years is a way to build hours and move on up to the mainline airline.
      - tyingq 10y ago
        I'm pretty sure that "per hour" is "block hours", such that they are paid only when the door shuts. So there's a fair amount of waiting around that's uncompensated. There is a per-diem, but I don't think it goes beyond average cost for meals, lodging, etc.
      - maxerickson 10y ago
        Their actual typical monthly hours would be more informative than their contractual guarantee.
        cjrp 10y ago
        Looks like the actual total at Mesa (including per diems, etc.) was $20,183 last year[1]. [1] https://www.alpa.org/news-and-events/news-room/2016-08-16-strong-career-key-to-attracting-new-pilots-to-airline-profession https://www.alpa.org/news-and-events/news-room/2016-08-16-st...
- malza 10y ago
  > Doesn't anyone honestly sell a real product that you can take at face value anymore? It's all about risk. Outsourcing means companies transfer risk to other parties. Governments love to do it too, that's why entities like the EU are given sovereign power or public transport is privatised. What's this? A train crashed because of a poorly maintained rail? Scheduled maintenance overran and commuters are angry? The power grid is experiencing brown outs because there's not enough power stations? Sorry, that third party is to blame... bad third party! I totally understand why it's annoying, but I have nothing to do with third party etc. So in a way, United taking the blame for these things is refreshing. They are treating the outsourcing as their own responsibility.
  - nebabyte 10y ago
    > refreshing sigh > they have a vested interest in keeping Republic afloat through its bankruptcy (and therefore, discreetly accepting blame)
brokenmachine 10y ago
How can a bankrupt airline still be flying? The whole thing really exposes the cracks and deliberate obfuscation in an industry I thought would be regulated like crazy.
- sowbug 10y ago
  There are several kinds of bankruptcy. One is the kind you're thinking of, where whatever's left is divided up and given to creditors. Another provides a sort of time-out for the business to work its problems out without creditors hassling them. When a business "emerges" from bankruptcy it's a successful conclusion of that second kind. There are more kinds.
- joering2 10y ago
  It is "regulated like crazy", by corrupted politicians like David Samson. United even created his own route from Newark to SC so he can fly home... In January 2015, federal prosecutors subpoenaed records related to Samson's personal travel, and his relationship with Newark Liberty International Airport's largest carrier, United Airlines, as part of a probe into a flight route initiated by United while Samson was chairman of the transportation agency that operates the region's airports. The route provided non-stop service between Newark and Columbia Metropolitan Airport in South Carolina, located about 50 miles from a home where Samson often spent weekends. United halted the non-stop route on April 1, 2014, three days after Samson resigned from the position. Samson referred to the twice-a-week route — with a flight leaving Newark on Thursday evenings and another returning on Monday mornings — as “the chairman’s flight.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Samson_(lawyer) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Samson_(lawyer)
  - djsumdog 10y ago
    > Samson was ordered to pay a $100,000 fine and sentenced to a year of home confinement at the South Carolina vacation house that was subject of the crime This really shouldn't amaze me anymore, but it still does. The justice system is a very different place depending on the amount of money and power you have.
dragonwriter 10y ago
Since Republic is contracting for United, United is probably liable under vicarious liability principles anyway, so conspiracy theories about why they don't try to deflect blame aren't really needed.
- dsacco 10y ago
  Agreed, but I was reiterating the author's (admittedly speculative) point here. It is interesting even if it's not conclusive; the incentive is at least there, if not the intention. That said, I wouldn't call it a conspiracy theory. I'd call it shrewd business acumen. If the law permits you to reduce your costs using contracted third parties, you'll likely avail yourself of the opportunity when shareholders are demanding returns. It sounds sensational, but I think it's really quite mundane.
- Naritai 10y ago
  Conversely, it's common for contracting firms to include a clause requiring the subcontracting firm to indemnify the contractor. So United would be able to push it back onto Republic.
  - SomeStupidPoint 10y ago
    Wouldn't that still leave United liable, and only obligate Republic to pay United for their loss? Probably leaves United in a bad spot, considering Republic is bankrupt and United depends on them for services.
  - ak39 10y ago
    That clause is unlikely to hold against litigation on grounds that the paying customer was given the deliberate impression that he/she was entering into a contract agreement with United. Unless of course the ticket contract with paying customers makes it a clause that United isn't responsible.
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    Indemnification wouldn't eliminate United's liability, it would just entitle United to sue Republic for reimbursement for whatever it had to pay. Which, given Republic's bankruptcy, puts United in the same problematic spot a victim would be in if they had to sue only Republic and United wasn't liable under repsondeat superior.
joering2 10y ago
Jesus! So far I naively thought that the rotting of commercial flying in America is created only by corrupted politicians who instead of forcing Government to investigate price fixing by major airlines, look somewhere else (over the last 5 years my summer ticket to europe went up about 10% Y/Y; meanwhile oil price went down some 40%, clearly there is a fix as oppose to gas stations where price of gallon follows cruide oil ups and downs). But this crazy trick of working with bankrupt company to avoid union that's pure devil's genius! I can only pray someone from the Committee they meeting on soon read this or the article and can actually inquiry about this when they have a chance!
logicallee 10y ago
>discreetly accepting blame Have you seen the news and social media lately? United has been the butt of the blame "discreetly" the way James Bond making his way from point A to point B in a city while blowing up, crashing, and destroying everything in his path is "discreet". Can you honestly name or a remember a PR disaster as bad as this one about any company in the past two years? I would phrase it as "loudly and publicly accepting blame and a tremendous backlash".
- dagw 10y ago
  Can you honestly name or a remember a PR disaster as bad as this one about any company in the past two years? Volkswagen was probably just as bad at the time. Now of course most people have kind of forgotten or at least moved on and VW just posted strong Q1 results, handily beating estimates.
  - rurban 10y ago
    Glad you brought that up. VW has even less to do with the dieselgate scandal than UA has with this O'Hare incident. VW uses engines and engine software parametrization from Audi. Audi uses engine software and esp. the cheating device from Bosch. Everyone else also uses it. But VW being the biggest of them all is getting the blame and has to pay the fine.
    - vmarsy 10y ago
      The VW group owns Volkswagen, Audi, Porsche, SEAT, ... If I remember correctly the Bosch cheating software was there for testing purposes but VW asked Bosch to leave it. > Everyone else also uses it No. Some companies optimize their engine to have optimal emissions in the exact conditions of the emissions test, but no other company has been found to have an actual digital switch modifying the engine's behavior only during the emissions test.
      - rurban 10y ago
        Get yourself educated and watch the relevant CCC talk please.
return0 10y ago
So in today's capitalism, you can shift and dilute the blame so much, that you can literally beat up your customers.

by dsacco 10y ago

ryandrake 10y ago

The infuriating thing about all of this is how deliberately obfuscated and phony everything is: * Airline employees who aren't quite airline employees * Cops who aren't quite cops * Reserved seats that aren't quite reserved Doesn't anyone honestly sell a real product that you can take at face value anymore?

flukus 10y ago
This rubbish is everywhere. Contract cleaning (offices etc) for instance, used to be a profitable small business. Not enough to be rich, but enough for a big house with some decent amenities and to raise a family on a single income. Then in the 90's these gigs went into a pyramid of contracting and sub contracting companies where the company buying the service is paying more but the grunt doing the work is lucky to be on minimum wage. At a time where small business software should have been making these middle men completely useless they were getting bigger than ever.
- dba7dba 10y ago
  I can vouch for this story. My parents went through this scenario exactly. They had gotten into office cleaning because it was relatively well paying in the 90's. But in the 90's middle men came into the mix. Someone with better sales ability would win the contract for cleaning office, and subcontract it to someone else. And even that 2nd person might subcontract it to someone else. Eventually, the person really doing the actual cleaning barely made above minimum wage. What does MBA school call this? Reducing cost? Increasing efficiency? Reducing risk?
  - tarsinge 10y ago
    Intrigued by how can it be cost competitive for the middle men, why aren't small business selling directly? Is the sales part the only edge of middle men?
    - edent 10y ago
      Because a small company has the ability to supply cleaning to X square metres across one city. A middle-man can say "We will supply your cleaning in several cities no matter your office size." So a company pays a higher cost - but only has to deal with one contract, which saves them effort elsewhere. It's the same as taxi companies. It would be cheaper for you to call a small firm with lower overheads, but you're happy to pay a premium for convenience.
      - leni536 10y ago
        Hmm, Uber for office cleaning?
        flukus 10y ago
        So the yellow pages was basically just an uber uber?
      - flukus 10y ago
        A lot of this played out with single location companies and single city contracting companies (before they start merging). So I don't think that's the reason. I suspect it was cost. The middle men would just under bid and then under deliver.
      - djsumdog 10y ago
        You need the pigs. They're helping all the animals. That horse isn't really going to the glue factory. We just reused that glue factory truck, but really he was going to a retirement home (paraphrasing Orwell's Animal Farm). When people plant themselves in the middle, they essentially sell themselves as being necessary. Are they necessary? It depends .. but usually not.
- madaxe_again 10y ago
  Everything is marketing bullshit - I spent a decade running an ecommerce agency and got to see the bellies of many beasts. For instance, there's a pig related tea brand in the UK which is universally seen as funky and independent and all that shite. They're owned by tetley, who are in turn owned by tata. The ownership structure is sufficiently complex to make them look independent - but they aren't. It's just good marketing. Either way, this is just one of many examples that spring to mind - oh, also, call centres - in the U.K. you can call pretty much any large business you like and you'll be talking to one of two huge call centre operators. Then... where do you draw the line? Is private equity backing problematic when its obfuscated? Or just contract primacy?
  - fennecfoxen 10y ago
    Oh, TeaPigs? With the dachshund mascot on the Darjeeling Earl Grey, and the brown-paper boxes, and the overpriced wares? Yeah, you can get those everywhere; they're clearly _way_ too mass-market to be properly independent. If you're spending cash money the on indie feel of things, you'll be buying BigCorp sooner or later. Better to just buy quality. > Then... where do you draw the line? Is private equity backing problematic when its obfuscated? Or just contract primacy? Well, we're taught that the free market is efficient only when you have property rights, low barriers to entry, and low transaction costs. While monopoly issues get most of the antitrust press, I suspect that a lot of the other things people don't like about BigCorp world and the gig economy is the way that high transaction costs around hiring, firing, and most especially, contracts of all sorts. Any time these issues are complex and involve expensive lawyers, BigCorp tends to win. It's at the roots of a lot of problems these days.
    - madaxe_again 10y ago
      Yeah, them - they're essentially an independent business unit of Tata global. One thing that I found consistently interesting was that more often than not, their employees thought they were working for a small, independent business - and the principles would often use "we're only little" in negotiations. When you manufacture a reality for long enough it becomes real - at least, real enough in the minds of beholders that any opposing reality is dismissed as priggish or jealous.
killjoywashere 10y ago
Please tell me you the ToS for every online service, every time it's updated. The internet-enabled side of industry virtually invented this modus operandi.
- TeMPOraL 10y ago
  > The internet-enabled side of industry virtually I see what you did there. Are Internet services even obligated to notify you when they change their ToS, or do I really have to run a script every night that diffs the current ToS with last recorded one, for every service I use?
taurath 10y ago
Microsoft employees that aren't Microsoft employees..
- rootsudo 10y ago
  Yep, Wipro, Experis and Unisys are popular now for MSFT.
djsumdog 10y ago
Contracted pilots are often paid peanuts too. Some non-union pilots are even on food stamps. They might even be better off driving for Uber, and that's kinda terrible.
- wfunction 10y ago
  This is crazy! Any sources for this?
  - cjrp 10y ago
    http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/Mesa http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/Mesa - First Officer (copilot) in their first year at the company makes $19/hour, and is guaranteed 76 hours/month. Equates to $17,328 pre-tax. It's why so many regional pilots commute, because they can't afford to live near the major airport which they're based at. The result is fatigued or sick (no pay if you call in sick) pilots operating these flights. But hey, supply and demand. They wouldn't be able to pay so little if pilots weren't applying, and that won't change anytime soon because flying at a regional for a few years is a way to build hours and move on up to the mainline airline.
    - tyingq 10y ago
      I'm pretty sure that "per hour" is "block hours", such that they are paid only when the door shuts. So there's a fair amount of waiting around that's uncompensated. There is a per-diem, but I don't think it goes beyond average cost for meals, lodging, etc.
    - maxerickson 10y ago
      Their actual typical monthly hours would be more informative than their contractual guarantee.
      - cjrp 10y ago
        Looks like the actual total at Mesa (including per diems, etc.) was $20,183 last year[1]. [1] https://www.alpa.org/news-and-events/news-room/2016-08-16-strong-career-key-to-attracting-new-pilots-to-airline-profession https://www.alpa.org/news-and-events/news-room/2016-08-16-st...
malza 10y ago
> Doesn't anyone honestly sell a real product that you can take at face value anymore? It's all about risk. Outsourcing means companies transfer risk to other parties. Governments love to do it too, that's why entities like the EU are given sovereign power or public transport is privatised. What's this? A train crashed because of a poorly maintained rail? Scheduled maintenance overran and commuters are angry? The power grid is experiencing brown outs because there's not enough power stations? Sorry, that third party is to blame... bad third party! I totally understand why it's annoying, but I have nothing to do with third party etc. So in a way, United taking the blame for these things is refreshing. They are treating the outsourcing as their own responsibility.
- nebabyte 10y ago
  > refreshing sigh > they have a vested interest in keeping Republic afloat through its bankruptcy (and therefore, discreetly accepting blame)

brokenmachine 10y ago

How can a bankrupt airline still be flying? The whole thing really exposes the cracks and deliberate obfuscation in an industry I thought would be regulated like crazy.

sowbug 10y ago
There are several kinds of bankruptcy. One is the kind you're thinking of, where whatever's left is divided up and given to creditors. Another provides a sort of time-out for the business to work its problems out without creditors hassling them. When a business "emerges" from bankruptcy it's a successful conclusion of that second kind. There are more kinds.
joering2 10y ago
It is "regulated like crazy", by corrupted politicians like David Samson. United even created his own route from Newark to SC so he can fly home... In January 2015, federal prosecutors subpoenaed records related to Samson's personal travel, and his relationship with Newark Liberty International Airport's largest carrier, United Airlines, as part of a probe into a flight route initiated by United while Samson was chairman of the transportation agency that operates the region's airports. The route provided non-stop service between Newark and Columbia Metropolitan Airport in South Carolina, located about 50 miles from a home where Samson often spent weekends. United halted the non-stop route on April 1, 2014, three days after Samson resigned from the position. Samson referred to the twice-a-week route — with a flight leaving Newark on Thursday evenings and another returning on Monday mornings — as “the chairman’s flight.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Samson_(lawyer) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Samson_(lawyer)
- djsumdog 10y ago
  > Samson was ordered to pay a $100,000 fine and sentenced to a year of home confinement at the South Carolina vacation house that was subject of the crime This really shouldn't amaze me anymore, but it still does. The justice system is a very different place depending on the amount of money and power you have.

dragonwriter 10y ago

Since Republic is contracting for United, United is probably liable under vicarious liability principles anyway, so conspiracy theories about why they don't try to deflect blame aren't really needed.

dsacco 10y ago
Agreed, but I was reiterating the author's (admittedly speculative) point here. It is interesting even if it's not conclusive; the incentive is at least there, if not the intention. That said, I wouldn't call it a conspiracy theory. I'd call it shrewd business acumen. If the law permits you to reduce your costs using contracted third parties, you'll likely avail yourself of the opportunity when shareholders are demanding returns. It sounds sensational, but I think it's really quite mundane.
Naritai 10y ago
Conversely, it's common for contracting firms to include a clause requiring the subcontracting firm to indemnify the contractor. So United would be able to push it back onto Republic.
- SomeStupidPoint 10y ago
  Wouldn't that still leave United liable, and only obligate Republic to pay United for their loss? Probably leaves United in a bad spot, considering Republic is bankrupt and United depends on them for services.
- ak39 10y ago
  That clause is unlikely to hold against litigation on grounds that the paying customer was given the deliberate impression that he/she was entering into a contract agreement with United. Unless of course the ticket contract with paying customers makes it a clause that United isn't responsible.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  Indemnification wouldn't eliminate United's liability, it would just entitle United to sue Republic for reimbursement for whatever it had to pay. Which, given Republic's bankruptcy, puts United in the same problematic spot a victim would be in if they had to sue only Republic and United wasn't liable under repsondeat superior.

joering2 10y ago

Jesus! So far I naively thought that the rotting of commercial flying in America is created only by corrupted politicians who instead of forcing Government to investigate price fixing by major airlines, look somewhere else (over the last 5 years my summer ticket to europe went up about 10% Y/Y; meanwhile oil price went down some 40%, clearly there is a fix as oppose to gas stations where price of gallon follows cruide oil ups and downs). But this crazy trick of working with bankrupt company to avoid union that's pure devil's genius! I can only pray someone from the Committee they meeting on soon read this or the article and can actually inquiry about this when they have a chance!

logicallee 10y ago

>discreetly accepting blame Have you seen the news and social media lately? United has been the butt of the blame "discreetly" the way James Bond making his way from point A to point B in a city while blowing up, crashing, and destroying everything in his path is "discreet". Can you honestly name or a remember a PR disaster as bad as this one about any company in the past two years? I would phrase it as "loudly and publicly accepting blame and a tremendous backlash".

dagw 10y ago
Can you honestly name or a remember a PR disaster as bad as this one about any company in the past two years? Volkswagen was probably just as bad at the time. Now of course most people have kind of forgotten or at least moved on and VW just posted strong Q1 results, handily beating estimates.
- rurban 10y ago
  Glad you brought that up. VW has even less to do with the dieselgate scandal than UA has with this O'Hare incident. VW uses engines and engine software parametrization from Audi. Audi uses engine software and esp. the cheating device from Bosch. Everyone else also uses it. But VW being the biggest of them all is getting the blame and has to pay the fine.
  - vmarsy 10y ago
    The VW group owns Volkswagen, Audi, Porsche, SEAT, ... If I remember correctly the Bosch cheating software was there for testing purposes but VW asked Bosch to leave it. > Everyone else also uses it No. Some companies optimize their engine to have optimal emissions in the exact conditions of the emissions test, but no other company has been found to have an actual digital switch modifying the engine's behavior only during the emissions test.
    - rurban 10y ago
      Get yourself educated and watch the relevant CCC talk please.

return0 10y ago

So in today's capitalism, you can shift and dilute the blame so much, that you can literally beat up your customers.