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That would be seriously considered in a European city. But a European city would never let Asian style markets occur, because it would involve letting poor peo

That would be seriously considered in a European city. But a European city would never let Asian style markets occur, because it would involve letting poor people sell food on the street without regulation or tax.

JohnJamesRambo 10y ago
Is selling food without regulation a good idea?
- lacampbell 10y ago
  Yes. Anecdotally, I get food poisoning more from eateries in the west proudly displaying their health and safety certs than I do from street stalls in east asia. Morally, it's my own responsibility as a human being to decide whether to eat something or not. And practically, it lowers the barrier of entry for people to actually make a living. Imagine your financial world came crashing down, you had almost no funds, couldn't get a job, and no social welfare. How long would you be able to start selling food off a cart with no license or business registration in a busy pedestrian area before the police shut you down?
  - yongjik 10y ago
    Now imagine your financial world crashes down, so you make a loan at the bank with heavy interest and open a small noodle shop in an alley, which is the last chance to save your family from going homeless. And then on Day 2 you find five food stalls blocking your store... Edit: Also do you think people selling food in a busiest street are not being regulated? It's a prized spot, and these guys are professionals. Chances are that it's being regulated. Just not by the police. And the "tax" they pay for the privilege of operating there isn't being used to, say, build a better road.
    - lacampbell 10y ago
      Most tax a government extorts from you isn't being used to build a better road either. Anyway, I probably shouldn't generalise all asian food stall markets. Thailand is quite a poor and corrupt country AFAIK. I have no idea how someone gets a space for their cart in Bangkok. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you know more about how it works there than I do.
      - yongjik 10y ago
        Full disclosure: I have no idea how it works in Bangkok. I'm extrapolating from what I learned in Seoul. However, I'd be surprised if getting a profitable spot for one's cart doesn't involve a lot of "connections" and occasional show of force. After all, there are many more people who are willing to use these spots. If government isn't protecting the "owners" via property rights, someone else is doing the job. (It could be the merchants themselves. Whether that's desirable is left for the readers to decide.)
        ethbro 10y ago
        Fwiw, I found that Thai culture seems to have a very palpable avoidance of aggression and violence. (Buddhist thing?) I'm not naive enough to assume this trumps economic struggle, but I will say I was surprised that a lot of things you see elsewhere in tourist areas aren't prevalent in Thailand. E.g. bag snatching, mugging, etc. Though not as far as Japan's "Excuse me sir, you left your wallet at the restaurant 30 minutes ago. Apologies that it took me this long to catch up with you on the subway and return it."
        wsc981 10y ago
        The avoidance of aggression and violence has to do with "saving face". People who act aggresive in public "lose face" and thereby the respect of the public. The concept is more or less explained here: https://www.pattayaunlimited.com/thailand-land-of-face/ https://www.pattayaunlimited.com/thailand-land-of-face/ When visiting Thailand, even if some Thai person mistreats you (e.g. perhaps a tuktuk driver overcharges you), always try to act friendly (don't act angry in public). Try to resolve problems while keeping a smile. If you can't resolve problems this way, just go with the flow. This is a good way to avoid problems.
    - victornomad 10y ago
      Most of the stores you are referring in Bangkok are mainly big chains or shops run by people with lots of businesses. The people who really struggle are the people who run the stalls :/
    - taurath 10y ago
      Most of them are in front of grocers and markets. They make food, sometimes pay for the access to the stream of people, and generally make it a better market - or they're friends with the owners of the market. That's my impression at least - I'll ask some local friends. Never seen any food stalls outside a restaurant unless it's a very very busy street.
      - papabrown 10y ago
        Granted I've never done a complete analysis of where all food carts are located but a few places that spring to mind. Suk Soi 8 - In front of 7-11 but also across from a restaurant Suk Soi 5 - In front of several restaurants Suk Soi 7 - In front of several restaurants Suk Soi 11 - In front of several restaurants I could name tons of more obscure places that I remember eating at but the above are pretty well known to most tourists and expats. They are not friends of the local business owners. They pay the police for the space. That's why every time they have one of these street vendor crackdowns mandated by the big boys at the top of the food chain the shops usually pop back up in a week or two once the heat is off. Police can't stand not getting paid their rightful bribes. Does anyone really think that all of those store owners right on lower Sukhumvit (between Soi 5 and Asoke) want people selling dildos in front of their shops? Viagra pills, bootleg DVDs, etc? Literally, I have photos of cops sitting there having lunch with these street merchants (Soi 15'ish area) with dildos and fake viagra sitting on the same table they're eating off of. Guess who that street vendor is friends with? Who's the store owner going to complain to? Nobody if they value their health. Alas those photos will never see the light of day for much the same reason.
  - JohnJamesRambo 10y ago
    Do you have any data beyond your anecdote? Something that shows that food inspection is actually detrimental to food safety?
    - lacampbell 10y ago
      None at all. Quite frankly, even if the data showed the opposite on that point I wouldn't change my opinion. The last two points are much more important.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - flyingfences 10y ago
      I don't think that anybody is saying that inspections are detrimental to food safety; I think that we're saying that a lack of regulations is not markedly detrimental to food safety.
  - zeroer 10y ago
    How are you getting food poisoning often enough to draw statistical conclusions from it?
    - lacampbell 10y ago
      I never drew any statistical conclusions. I literally prefaced it with "anecdotally", to make it clear to everyone it was an anecdote.
      - Dylan16807 10y ago
        Let me reword the question. Are you actually getting food poisoning enough that you can say how often it happens in each place? Even as an anecdote, you need a bunch of data points to calculate a rate of food poisoning. (And if your answer is yes, why are you getting so much more food poisoning than others?) An anecdote like "I only got food poisoning once and it was at X" works fine with one data point. But rates need several data points.
        ethbro 10y ago
        For what it's worth, a week of eating nothing but Bangkok street food left me feeling better than a week of eating in European or American restaurants. (X = ~32)
        Dylan16807 10y ago
        I'm not sure if "feeling better" actually says anything about the food safety.
        ethbro 10y ago
        Don't let the good get in the way of the perfect. People griped about small sample size. I was adding mine. In lieu of a bacteria count and kitchen audit, I feel like eating a lot of something and feeling good is a decent proxy for "Thing is safe to eat."
  - matt4077 10y ago
    Anecdotally, I have never had food poisoning in my life. Morally, morals don't have much to do with this. Practically, it's impossible for me to judge the sanitary conditions of a food stall. Or, if possible, it'd be wasteful for everyone to spend two hours checking everything instead of, as a society, organising a system where a trained professional does that for all of us. Specifically, you would need to carry a thermometer to check both the refrigeration as well as hot storage. You'd want to take samples and send them to a lab for bacterial cultures. You need to check the employees' bathroom for soap and clean towels. Then, come back the next morning and check that they threw out leftovers that can't be kept overnight, and properly sealed and stored those that can. Make sure people, especially doctors, know your toll-free number to report incidents of food poisoning that may be linked to restaurants.
    - stuaxo 10y ago
      In Taiwan they manage to have street food and Markets, they are all at designated places though. They also seem quite big on regulation, so I wouldn't be surprised if there are inspections.
Symbiote 10y ago
There are people selling food from vehicles or similar in many European cities. They need a licence. I once reported the man selling ice cream from the street outside my office for leaving his engine running, the fumes were coming inside our office. The police arrested him, and siezed the vehicle, since it turned out he didn't have a license, and had previously been given a warning. Example: http://www.towerhamlets.gov.uk/lgnl/business/markets/street_trading_licences.aspx http://www.towerhamlets.gov.uk/lgnl/business/markets/street_...
- qqg3 10y ago
  Wait what? Maybe his engine was running to run the freezer to keep your ice cream cold?
  - Elrac 10y ago
    If so, that served him right for running a 70 KW Diesel engine to operate a 0.5 KW freezer. If he was ignoring regulations on energy efficiency, it's very possible he was also ignoring regulations on health and hygiene.
    - Symbiote 10y ago
      There was a locked plug socket on the base of a lamppost outside, and a very small sign saying it was for the use of the street food trader. I asked the trader to use the socket, rather than his engine, since the diesel fumes were coming into our office, and the adjacent building was a primary school. He refused, so I reported him to the local council. They referred it to the police, since the van's number plate wasn't in their records.
- ensiferum 10y ago
  You must be German. ;-)

JohnJamesRambo 10y ago

Is selling food without regulation a good idea?

lacampbell 10y ago
Yes. Anecdotally, I get food poisoning more from eateries in the west proudly displaying their health and safety certs than I do from street stalls in east asia. Morally, it's my own responsibility as a human being to decide whether to eat something or not. And practically, it lowers the barrier of entry for people to actually make a living. Imagine your financial world came crashing down, you had almost no funds, couldn't get a job, and no social welfare. How long would you be able to start selling food off a cart with no license or business registration in a busy pedestrian area before the police shut you down?
- yongjik 10y ago
  Now imagine your financial world crashes down, so you make a loan at the bank with heavy interest and open a small noodle shop in an alley, which is the last chance to save your family from going homeless. And then on Day 2 you find five food stalls blocking your store... Edit: Also do you think people selling food in a busiest street are not being regulated? It's a prized spot, and these guys are professionals. Chances are that it's being regulated. Just not by the police. And the "tax" they pay for the privilege of operating there isn't being used to, say, build a better road.
  - lacampbell 10y ago
    Most tax a government extorts from you isn't being used to build a better road either. Anyway, I probably shouldn't generalise all asian food stall markets. Thailand is quite a poor and corrupt country AFAIK. I have no idea how someone gets a space for their cart in Bangkok. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you know more about how it works there than I do.
    - yongjik 10y ago
      Full disclosure: I have no idea how it works in Bangkok. I'm extrapolating from what I learned in Seoul. However, I'd be surprised if getting a profitable spot for one's cart doesn't involve a lot of "connections" and occasional show of force. After all, there are many more people who are willing to use these spots. If government isn't protecting the "owners" via property rights, someone else is doing the job. (It could be the merchants themselves. Whether that's desirable is left for the readers to decide.)
      - ethbro 10y ago
        Fwiw, I found that Thai culture seems to have a very palpable avoidance of aggression and violence. (Buddhist thing?) I'm not naive enough to assume this trumps economic struggle, but I will say I was surprised that a lot of things you see elsewhere in tourist areas aren't prevalent in Thailand. E.g. bag snatching, mugging, etc. Though not as far as Japan's "Excuse me sir, you left your wallet at the restaurant 30 minutes ago. Apologies that it took me this long to catch up with you on the subway and return it."
        wsc981 10y ago
        The avoidance of aggression and violence has to do with "saving face". People who act aggresive in public "lose face" and thereby the respect of the public. The concept is more or less explained here: https://www.pattayaunlimited.com/thailand-land-of-face/ https://www.pattayaunlimited.com/thailand-land-of-face/ When visiting Thailand, even if some Thai person mistreats you (e.g. perhaps a tuktuk driver overcharges you), always try to act friendly (don't act angry in public). Try to resolve problems while keeping a smile. If you can't resolve problems this way, just go with the flow. This is a good way to avoid problems.
  - victornomad 10y ago
    Most of the stores you are referring in Bangkok are mainly big chains or shops run by people with lots of businesses. The people who really struggle are the people who run the stalls :/
  - taurath 10y ago
    Most of them are in front of grocers and markets. They make food, sometimes pay for the access to the stream of people, and generally make it a better market - or they're friends with the owners of the market. That's my impression at least - I'll ask some local friends. Never seen any food stalls outside a restaurant unless it's a very very busy street.
    - papabrown 10y ago
      Granted I've never done a complete analysis of where all food carts are located but a few places that spring to mind. Suk Soi 8 - In front of 7-11 but also across from a restaurant Suk Soi 5 - In front of several restaurants Suk Soi 7 - In front of several restaurants Suk Soi 11 - In front of several restaurants I could name tons of more obscure places that I remember eating at but the above are pretty well known to most tourists and expats. They are not friends of the local business owners. They pay the police for the space. That's why every time they have one of these street vendor crackdowns mandated by the big boys at the top of the food chain the shops usually pop back up in a week or two once the heat is off. Police can't stand not getting paid their rightful bribes. Does anyone really think that all of those store owners right on lower Sukhumvit (between Soi 5 and Asoke) want people selling dildos in front of their shops? Viagra pills, bootleg DVDs, etc? Literally, I have photos of cops sitting there having lunch with these street merchants (Soi 15'ish area) with dildos and fake viagra sitting on the same table they're eating off of. Guess who that street vendor is friends with? Who's the store owner going to complain to? Nobody if they value their health. Alas those photos will never see the light of day for much the same reason.
- JohnJamesRambo 10y ago
  Do you have any data beyond your anecdote? Something that shows that food inspection is actually detrimental to food safety?
  - lacampbell 10y ago
    None at all. Quite frankly, even if the data showed the opposite on that point I wouldn't change my opinion. The last two points are much more important.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - flyingfences 10y ago
    I don't think that anybody is saying that inspections are detrimental to food safety; I think that we're saying that a lack of regulations is not markedly detrimental to food safety.
- zeroer 10y ago
  How are you getting food poisoning often enough to draw statistical conclusions from it?
  - lacampbell 10y ago
    I never drew any statistical conclusions. I literally prefaced it with "anecdotally", to make it clear to everyone it was an anecdote.
    - Dylan16807 10y ago
      Let me reword the question. Are you actually getting food poisoning enough that you can say how often it happens in each place? Even as an anecdote, you need a bunch of data points to calculate a rate of food poisoning. (And if your answer is yes, why are you getting so much more food poisoning than others?) An anecdote like "I only got food poisoning once and it was at X" works fine with one data point. But rates need several data points.
      - ethbro 10y ago
        For what it's worth, a week of eating nothing but Bangkok street food left me feeling better than a week of eating in European or American restaurants. (X = ~32)
        Dylan16807 10y ago
        I'm not sure if "feeling better" actually says anything about the food safety.
        ethbro 10y ago
        Don't let the good get in the way of the perfect. People griped about small sample size. I was adding mine. In lieu of a bacteria count and kitchen audit, I feel like eating a lot of something and feeling good is a decent proxy for "Thing is safe to eat."
- matt4077 10y ago
  Anecdotally, I have never had food poisoning in my life. Morally, morals don't have much to do with this. Practically, it's impossible for me to judge the sanitary conditions of a food stall. Or, if possible, it'd be wasteful for everyone to spend two hours checking everything instead of, as a society, organising a system where a trained professional does that for all of us. Specifically, you would need to carry a thermometer to check both the refrigeration as well as hot storage. You'd want to take samples and send them to a lab for bacterial cultures. You need to check the employees' bathroom for soap and clean towels. Then, come back the next morning and check that they threw out leftovers that can't be kept overnight, and properly sealed and stored those that can. Make sure people, especially doctors, know your toll-free number to report incidents of food poisoning that may be linked to restaurants.
  - stuaxo 10y ago
    In Taiwan they manage to have street food and Markets, they are all at designated places though. They also seem quite big on regulation, so I wouldn't be surprised if there are inspections.

Symbiote 10y ago

There are people selling food from vehicles or similar in many European cities. They need a licence. I once reported the man selling ice cream from the street outside my office for leaving his engine running, the fumes were coming inside our office. The police arrested him, and siezed the vehicle, since it turned out he didn't have a license, and had previously been given a warning. Example: http://www.towerhamlets.gov.uk/lgnl/business/markets/street_trading_licences.aspx http://www.towerhamlets.gov.uk/lgnl/business/markets/street_...

qqg3 10y ago
Wait what? Maybe his engine was running to run the freezer to keep your ice cream cold?
- Elrac 10y ago
  If so, that served him right for running a 70 KW Diesel engine to operate a 0.5 KW freezer. If he was ignoring regulations on energy efficiency, it's very possible he was also ignoring regulations on health and hygiene.
  - Symbiote 10y ago
    There was a locked plug socket on the base of a lamppost outside, and a very small sign saying it was for the use of the street food trader. I asked the trader to use the socket, rather than his engine, since the diesel fumes were coming into our office, and the adjacent building was a primary school. He refused, so I reported him to the local council. They referred it to the police, since the van's number plate wasn't in their records.
ensiferum 10y ago
You must be German. ;-)