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Most Vegetarians and Vegans Eventually Return to Meat

117 points by curtis 10y ago

uptownfunk 10y ago
Does this include people who grew up vegetarian? I suspect people who are vegetarian for cultural reasons (e.g. myself) would have a much lower chance of "returning" to Meat (don't know if I would even call it returning) than those who initially ate meat, became vegetarians, and then went back to eating meat. Also surprised that only 2% of Americans are vegetarian, but probably because I've lived in California most of my life.. I also wonder what percent of Americans eat meat 1 or more days / week, 2 days / week, etc..
timthelion 10y ago
Vegetarians and vegans, unlike catholics, don't have a comunity of people who will call them up and ask them why they haven't been attending service. Being vegetarian and vegan is also much more involved than christianity. You can be a serial killer and still be a christian, but you cannot be a vegan if you eat meat once. We also lack a confessional culture in which sins can be forgiven and stray sheep can come back to the fold. That's something we really need. Too many people slip up once and feal that they are carnivores again.
- wyager 10y ago
  It's unfortunate that you're being downvoted; that's a very interesting social analysis. I hadn't thought about confession operating as a relief valve for deviations from difficult social rules.
  - nthcolumn 10y ago
    beware lions claiming to be veggie...
- bogle 10y ago
  The article implied you were more likely to remain a veggie if you lived with other veggies. They also cited not wishing to stand out as a reason for lapsing. I don't think, however, it would help someone remain veggie for long if it was being imposed on them in any way. The important points raised that may help a veggie stay the course would be to educate them on the environmental and moral implications of eating meat. Freedom of choice then rather than the imposition of a culture.
- metamet 10y ago
  > Too many people slip up once and feal that they are carnivores again. Well, aren't they? If you have a moral conviction for abstaining from meat, shouldn't that be enough to keep you coming back to your straight and narrow? Humans have eaten meat for so long that it's engrained into our biochemistry. I imagine that trying to adjust to a diet that isn't based in our evolutionary framework requires some form of personal conviction and a social structure that reinforces it.
  - CapitalistCartr 10y ago
    I have a moral conviction to not steal, yet when I was four, I stole another kid's Matchbook car (an ambulance) during recess at the Headstart program. My moral conviction isn't thereby lessened.
  - f000g00b00gar 10y ago
    > Humans have eaten meat for so long that it's engrained into our biochemistry. There are no physiological adaptations humans have to eating meat. We've been eating fruit for many millions of years longer; that is our natural diet.
  - fredsir 10y ago
    > Humans have eaten meat for so long that it's engrained into our biochemistry. I imagine that trying to adjust to a diet that isn't based in our evolutionary framework requires some form of personal conviction and a social structure that reinforces it. I don't believe that we have any instincts for eating meat like you suggest. It's not like a human is even capable of ripping fur and skin apart with our mouth, crushing bones with our teeth and tearing fresh meat off an animal and eating it. Well, not without getting sore in the jaw, broken teeth and probably a lot of sicknesses leading to death from the uncooked (or handled in any way) meat. If you put a baby in front of a animal, the baby won't think of it as food. We are not carnivores. We have simply learned to also eat meat. There's nothing about us requiring us to eat meat as long as we can get food from another sources. I've been vegan for 3 years. The only hard thing about it is other peoples comments and not as many vegan friendly restaurant, although already in 2017, two new places have opened in my town, and it looks like it's a trend that will continue.
- nthcolumn 10y ago
  Didn't you mean 'veal'? I don't think catholics call you up if you don't go to mass, or you can justifiably call yourself one if you are on your big spring killing spree although you might say you are a a vegan even if you had a BigMac when you were a kid. I'm not sure why it helps to conflate the two. I don't see many similarities other than eating tiny crackers. FWIW I stopped being a veggie because it was just too hard in Aussie and nearly all the veggie stuff was soya based and not much better for the environment than eating meat and I got really sick of bloody pumpkin soup being literally the only veg soup, that and bacon...
- heurist 10y ago
  Most vegans I've met are "mostly vegan". Occasionally eating meat is not a big deal. The problems start when they're the main part of your diet - you start increasing your disk of heart disease, diabetes, colon cancer, etc while also perpetuating environmental degredation. All very costly to society.
- _dark_matter_ 10y ago
  Eh, I disagree with this analysis. I consider myself vegan yet when we go out I'll surely eat some cheese, and once or twice a year I'll have a bit of meat. The "no community of judgement" goes both ways here, and honestly I don't really care what other people think anyways :)
- mamcx 10y ago
  > You can be a serial killer and still be a christian No. If you stick to what the Bible/Jesus say. You can be a former bad person, but to get the approval of God you must repent and stop doing terrible things. Being both is being hypocrite, and that is probably the worse of all, ie: Jesus dislike more the hypocrite than the honest sinner that acknowledge his own faults.
regnum 10y ago
After I watched Forks Over Knives on Netflix it took me about 2 years to become 100% plant based, but I've been doing it now for over a year and I can guarantee you I'll never go back. I work in an industry where I see the side effects of the Standard American Diet, and if you saw the health effects I see you'd switch too. Here in Austin we have several monthly potlucks based upon the Plant Pure Nation pods idea, which makes it easier to find like minded people and new recipes. Also, Facebook groups like McDougall Friends is great for support, if you need it.
- jp555 10y ago
  If emergency room doctors made laws, motorcycles would be illegal. We're all susceptible to being deluded by our naive realism. Like how I think anyone driving faster than me is a maniac and anyone driving slower is a moron. The objective reality is that everybody thinks that.
  - kinkrtyavimoodh 10y ago
    Or perhaps they'd be subsidized as it brings them business :P
    - Neliquat 10y ago
      I wish. The insurance on my R1 outweighs my other bikes and cars, combined. And I honestly can't blame them. That thing is breathtakingly fast.
  - f000g00b00gar 10y ago
    Naive is eating animals and then complaining about our species' extinction as a result of climate change. The two are exorbitantly linked - global warming and killing animals.
  - deegles 10y ago
    This study found that 70% of drivers think they're "above average": http://www.theaa.ie/blog/70-of-drivers-rate-themselves-as-above-average/ http://www.theaa.ie/blog/70-of-drivers-rate-themselves-as-ab...
Theodores 10y ago
The vast amount of smokers who quit smoking eventually return to the newsagents to pay lots of money for some tobacco. However there is a second category of people that have never smoked, and are totally unlikely to do so. Vegetarian/vegan dieting is a bit like this. There are lots of people that try going vegan and then they only last so long at it, probably boring everyone to death with their 'meat is murder' views. Meanwhile, in India and plenty of other places, are those that actually are vegetarian, having grown up that way and not indoctrinated at a young age into the meat eating cult. For these people the logic of suddenly starting to eat meat makes as much sense as taking up smoking, after an impressionable teenage this does not happen. Disclosure: yes I am vegetarian and I own a leather belt!!!
- umeshunni 10y ago
  > in India and plenty of other places, are those that actually are vegetarian, having grown up that way and not indoctrinated at a young age into the meat eating cult On the other hand, they are indoctrinated at a young age to not eat meat (and to look down upon those that do).
  - danans 10y ago
    I would also add that the majority of Indians are not vegetarian, especially in the south and east: http://m.huffingtonpost.in/2016/06/14/how-india-eats_n_10434374.html http://m.huffingtonpost.in/2016/06/14/how-india-eats_n_10434...
  - calvinbhai 10y ago
    Not necessarily. There's so much variety in india wrt nutritious and tasty vegetarian and vegan foods, indoctrinitaion is tougher. The only non Indian cuisines that have some veggie options are probably Ethiopian and Mediterranean. But I haven't seen many varieties of those in US. Meat eating is expensive (comparatively) and hence it's an another great barrier for many people to try. I'm so pro veggie food even after consuming dairy products, chicken,eggs and occasional beef and pork. That's primarily because I grew up in India and I believe veggie food in India is way better than any other non meat cuisine.
NhanH 10y ago
One thing worth noting is that regardless of one's personal reasons to be vegan/ vegetarian , being 90% vegan WILL almost always be 90% effective for said reason. This is not to dispute anything from the article. Just a reminder that if you sympathize or relate with any cause to reduce animal product usage, you don't have to be "vegan" or "vegetarian", just try to reduce your consumption to the point where it starts to inconvenient you.
- colordrops 10y ago
  More generally, black and white thinking is often less effective than thinking in scales.
  - dionidium 10y ago
    Is this really true? I was a vegetarian for 10 years. It was easy. Meat was verboten. Full stop. I never had to negotiate it with myself. But, now, at any individual meal I can convince myself that it's no big deal to eat a little meat. Crucially, I can convince myself of that for several days in a row. If the end goal is less meat, then, for me, the results were clear: black and white thinking was far more effective.
    - ch4s3 10y ago
      Have you tried rate limiting? Or setting other simple rules? For example say: 5 servings of meat per week max, and only 1 of red meat?
    - xexers 10y ago
      Agreed. I am normally a very nuanced person who tries hard to see all sides of an issue... but with my vegetarian diet, I find total abstinence to be the best thing. Eating a little bit of meat requires will power to not eat too much... and I have a limited reserve of will power which I want to save for other things in my life. I've been vegetarian for 9 years.
    - colordrops 10y ago
      Far more effective for you as an individual, but has it been far more effective in the reduction of the absolute amount of meat that has been eaten world-wide?
rocky1138 10y ago
The title should be changed to reflect that this is in the US only.
- DominikPeters 10y ago
  Title should also include "(2014)"
- smnrchrds 10y ago
  This is very important. India probably has more vegetarians than the rest of the world combined. If you are culturally vegetarian, born and raised in a vegetarian household, had vegetarian meals your whole life, and surrounded by vegetarians, there is little chance that you would start eating meat anytime soon. However, in the US where almost everyone is non-vegetarian, it is understandable why people who convert to vegetarianism might convert back.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
charia 10y ago
This article forgets to mention that the same report says that most people who are vegetarian for 3 years or more stay vegetarian for the rest of their lives. The "vast majority" here are probably people who tried it and stuck around for a couple of months before quitting. Just like any other "fad" diet.
- welpwelp 10y ago
  I was also looking for a mention of such a statistic. I have been vegetarian for 2+ years, occasionally cheat with sea food, but the idea of eating animal flesh grosses me out and i don't think I'll ever turn back.
  - ovulator 10y ago
    I've been vegetarian for 10+ years, "lapsed" for a few months after my life was turned upside down by a series of events but quickly just went back to vegetarianism because it was easier for me. Once you get into a routine, you'll probably stick with it.
deepnotderp 10y ago
The thing is, if you want to reduce dependence upon animal products and increase sustainability, you can expend 20% of the effort to go 80% of the way, and not spend another 80% of your effort to go the last 20%. The pareto optimal curve is a real concept, and you don't need to go full vegetarian or vegan for you and the planet to reap the benefits.
- maxxxxx 10y ago
  That's what I tell a lot of people. Reduce meat by 90% and you already do a lot of good. 90% reduction is pretty easy to do.
- ScottBurson 10y ago
  Having been a semi-vegetarian for over 25 years, I agree completely. I eat yogurt and cheese frequently, eggs or poultry a couple of times a week, and the occasional fish; never beef or pork. It works for me.
  - f000g00b00gar 10y ago
    It may "work" for you, but it's certainly not working for the planet, nor for the animals you're paying to literally abuse and torture. This is called selfishness and it's morally repugnant.
- scholia 10y ago
  Absolutely agree. There are also animal products that can be produced ethically, including eggs, milk, cheese and yogurt. In passing, anybody who eats a lot of salads also eats at least a few insects ;-)
Danihan 10y ago
I used to be vegan, for three plus years. I can't recommend the diet. It was extremely unhealthy for me, personally. Over a period of time I developed allergies to both soy protein and gluten that I never had in my early twenties, allergies that never went away after I returned to eating meat. YMMV From an ethical perspective too, I no longer believe the hype that diets should be "more efficient." I believe humans are too efficient already, and what more efficiency provides us, practically speaking, is simply more humans and more over-population, with worse living conditions long-term for most of those new people. India is often touted as a very vegetarian country, but I can't believe that sort of population density is a good thing. I'd prefer everyone eat a rather "inefficient" diet with lots of open space for animals to graze.
- fredsir 10y ago
  Did you try simply stopping with the soy protein and gluten consumption? In any case, I hardly see how going back to an animal-including diet changes anything on that front. Soy is not vegan-only, and neither is gluten. You can easily live on a vegan diet without those things, and you can easily live on a non-vegan diet including those things. Seems more like a weak excuse if you ask me.
  - Danihan 10y ago
    To be clear, you think it's "easy" to live on a diet without any animal products, and also without soy or gluten, and that I'm "weak" for not doing so, despite other health issues I had on the diet? This is another aspect of veganism that really turns me off, the pervasive self-righteousness within the community at large. Please tell me what restaurants I could visit with those dietary restrictions? And what quick lunches / fast food I can buy on that diet, on say a 30 minute lunch break, for instance...?
    - John23832 10y ago
      > To be clear, you think it's "easy" to live on a diet without any animal products, and also without soy or gluten, and that I'm "weak" for not doing so, despite other health issues I had on the diet? This is another aspect of veganism that completely turns me off, the pervasive self-righteousness within the community at large. Please tell me what restaurants I could visit with those dietary restrictions? And what quick lunches / fast food I can buy on that diet, on say a 30 minute lunch break, for instance...? People don't really realize what they eat, especially when it comes to gluten and soy. I developed a wheat allergy after college (which my doctor said was caused by stress and working in a pizzaria full of wheat) which caused me to have to switch to a gluten free diet. That means your prepared meal options are massively reduced, more of your time is spend cooking (which imo is a good thing, I'm conscious about what I eat now), and if you do eat out, take on a "gluten-free tax". People who go on these holier-than-though fad diets don't understand what people who actually have dietary needs go through. There is no wiggle room for us. If we don't follow our diets there are real and serious medical consequences. We don't just "feel down on ourselves" for not following the diet and the strictness with which we must follow our diets cause real inconveniences.
fredsir 10y ago
To sum it up: people are weak. Who knew? > In other words, from the advocacy group’s perspective, health can be an effective “foot in the door” approach to increasing the number of vegetarians and vegans, but often not enough to keep people animal-free for the long-term. Not even their own health is a big enough factor for them to control their lust. > “The latest findings once again show that a message focused on reduction instead of elimination of animal products may be more effective to create an overall decline in animal product consumption,” the report says. “Advocates would be well advised to soften their appeals to avoid suggesting the choice is all or nothing.” I wonder if those vegetarians/vegans that returned to eating animal products returned 100%, or in a reduced manner. That's the really interesting bit unfortunately missing from the article. If people reduce their animal products usage with, say, 50% vs someone going vegan for a few months and then returns to animal products with a 50% reduction, they will ultimately have had a bigger impact than people "only" doing the reduction. Personally, all the vegetarians/vegans I know that have gone back have done it because it was too hard in social settings, but the experience have resulted in them reducing their use of animal products to "rarely" or "at social occasions" or "when it's not hard to skip on it", and that's a pretty big reduction.
- Ductapemaster 10y ago
  As someone who grew up vegetarian, I take a bit of offense at you calling it "lust" and that those who return are "weak". That's a very black and white view of an issue with a whole lot of grey. I'm one of those people you mention who went back because it was hard in social settings. For context, I stopped being vegetarian because I wanted to be more free to eat with my friends and family. It was incredibly hard growing up, as I could rarely have dinner at a friends house or eat meals in Boy Scouts. People didn't want to eat food that I cooked because there wasn't meat in it, so no one ate at my house. Even going out to restaurants was hard. Telling people I didn't want to go to their favorite burger joint on a road trip is challenging when you do it all the time. I had to either bow out of social situations and do my own thing, bring my own food, or not eat. Going through that for my entire childhood definitely changed me. You have to fight against the ingrained American mentality that meat always belongs at the table. You have to make people leave their comfort zones or do extra work in order to accommodate your needs. You have to be comfortable being "that person" who isn't normal. It wears on you over time, and at some point it just wasn't worth it any more. Now, I eat meat occasionally when I go out and I cook it for special occasions at home. Otherwise my meals are vegetarian most of the time. I enjoy meat in a limited capacity, and I personally want to keep it that way. I wish those who advocated for vegetarianism and veganism had some more capacity to see consumption reduction as aligned their cause. Black and white views exist on both sides here, and I think the solution is somewhere in the middle. Eat meat when its special. In my opinion it tastes better and you appreciate it more!
adamors 10y ago
Post from 2014 linking to research that is no longer available.
- 3131s 10y ago
  https://faunalytics.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Faunalytics_Current-Former-Vegetarians_Full-Report.pdf https://faunalytics.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Faunalyti...
jplasmeier 10y ago
As a personal anecdote, I was a vegetarian for ~3 years from late in high school to junior year of college. It was definitely a valuable experience that afforded me much perspective into my diet, the diets of others, and food in general. When I started eating meat again it was under a vague condition to eat "good" meat, that is, either cooked fresh by my mother, or from a higher-end restaurant. This eroded a bit and after a year or so I was back to eating meat relatively unabashedly again. A few days ago I spent my entire Saturday vomiting bile from food poisoning ($CMG is the top suspect), and now I'm back to my post-vegetarianism habits of being careful about the meat I consume. I'm aware of probability and statistics, so this is somewhat irrational in that sense, but I suppose my point is that I'm grateful for the experience I had of being vegetarian and I think everyone should try it for as long as they can. EDIT: Oh, perhaps the most shocking part of the experience was how few people knew what the difference between being pescetarian, vegetarian, and vegan is, as well as dealing with all manner of assholes who couldn't fathom why anyone would do such a thing to themselves. EDIT2: As for health, it bears mentioning that I knew a couple people who are/were vegetarians and had much worse diets than many non-vegetarians. Naively substituting a chicken breast for a block of cheese is _not_ healthy! EDIT3: I made a point of almost never asking my friends to pick somewhere more vegetarian friendly. Almost anywhere, I could deal with. Notable exceptions were seafood restaurants and anywhere in the South of the USA. There's only so many onion rings one can stand!
- douche 10y ago
  > I was a vegetarian for ~3 years from late in high school to junior year of college Observationally, this seems to be a stage that many young people go through at that time of life. At least on the surface - I've seen far too many "vegetarians" and "vegans" wolfing down greasy pepperoni pizza, blacked out at 3AM in my college days.
  - ASpring 10y ago
    > I've seen far too many "vegetarians" and "vegans" wolfing down greasy pepperoni pizza, blacked out at 3AM in my college days. Why is this still a trope? Being vegetarian or vegan does not require perfection. Think about how absurd this standard is. If you've ever done something unkind you are no longer a kind person. If you've ever written poor code, you are no longer a good programmer. This kind of thinking is a huge deterrent to people being vegan or vegetarian. If they ever have a lapse in judgement or decision making they just give up completely because of this line of thinking.
kinkrtyavimoodh 10y ago
A major issue with a lot of vegetarian / vegan diets is that they try to create vegetarian / vegan versions of what are fundamentally non-veg foods. This always ends up with people finding the veg version of something just an inferior tasting version of the 'actual' thing deprived of its primary component (the meat) and seasoned with some moral righteousness. Instead of this, people should try to design these dishes ground up, and look at vegetarian cuisines around the world (Indian would be a great place to start) for inspiration.
- Neliquat 10y ago
  As an omnivore, nothing annoys me more than my well intentioned veggie friends trying to serve me the vegie version of everything. It's gross to me, and it represents what they are trying to distance yourself from. Its like christian rock. It makes both things worse, while attempting in good faith, to celebrate them. Just cook kickass food that tastes good and meets your needs. Edit: just reread, and I sound dickish. I, of course, am flattered by their attempt at accomidation. But veggie bacon is bad, and someone needs to tell you. We still love you.
  - fredsir 10y ago
    I agree mostly, but you specifically mention veggie bacon (theres probably many kinds but what I like is rice paper cut and seasoned like bacon) and that thing specifically rock! I have more non-vegan family members and friends that have asked for the recipe after tasting it than anything else. It's also a lot cheaper, a lot healthier and as crunchy as you'd like it.
  - fnovd 10y ago
    I used to feel the same way before I went vegan. I don't try to push substitutes on non-vegans because I know their palettes aren't adjusted, but if I want to make a BLT, I have no choice but to use veggie-bacon. The rest of the sandwich is already vegan. Most vegans aren't really trying to distance themselves from non-vegan foods, just the unfortunate consequences of producing those foods. Most vegans don't have a problem with pepperoni pizza, for example. Just the source of the pepperoni (and cheese.)
fnovd 10y ago
The title seems misleading to me. According to the article: >A third-of people abandoned their animal-free diets in three months or less, and more than half abandoned it within the first year. Are you really a vegan or vegetarian if you break in 3 months? In 1 year? Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that 1 in 5 people who attempt to go vegan/vegetarian succeed? I'm a vegan and I'm active in my local vegan/vegetarian community. There are two camps: people who do it for ethical reasons and people who do it for for health. People who do it for health usually give up and move on to whatever fad diet becomes popular. People who subscribe to the ethics rarely quit. We have a saying: there's no such thing as a former vegan. Just someone who tried the diet.
- DenisM 10y ago
  This is a text-book example of the "no true Scotsman" fallacy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
  - fnovd 10y ago
    Is it, though? I mean, I can see the similarity, but ethical veg*nism does exist outside of the dietary practice. You don't need to subscribe to the ethics to partake in the diet. We lack the words to distinguish between and ethical vegan and a for-health vegan, but that doesn't mean they aren't distinct groups.
    - iamatworknow 10y ago
      Does it matter? What difference does it make if someone who's been a vegan for 3 months calls themself a vegan? Are they "harming the movement" by doing so? If partaking in the diet doesn't require you to subscribe to the ethics, as you say, then the label should just be a label: someone who doesn't eat animal products. No time frame or reasoning attached.
      - ohbleek 10y ago
        It's like the difference between a long-term member and someone on a trial membership. There is a difference.
ahelwer 10y ago
For me, an almost-always vegan who eats cheese or meat in social settings, it was a general despair that the moral argument for veganism is so simple. It's easy to intellectually coast in this area for a while, because all the arguments meat-eaters present in favor of eating meat are so astonishingly and universally dumb - we evolved to eat meat, meat gives me pleasure (ignoring consequences of that maxim), some distinction between humans and animals which falls apart under scrutiny or has consequences for treatment of the mentally disabled, etc. I've seen even very intelligent people put these forward. Converting from meat-eating to veganism carries with it a component of acknowledging an underlying personally-applicable horror in the world which is similar, I would say, to becoming atheist. It's thus nearly impossible to reason with reasonable people here, simply because the psychological consequence of losing the argument is so strong. PETA recognizes this, which is why their videos focus on the graphic ugliness of the meat industry to provoke an emotional reaction. Anyway. I originally really liked the moral arguments for veganism as forwarded by Peter Singer, which of course is very similar to his argument in Famine, Affluence, and Morality - it's pretty much impossible to accept one but not the other. I have more problems with the consequences of the FAM argument - that we inexorably ought to use all our life for the benefit of others if we profess to care for others at all. This, to me, is such an absurd consequence as to throw the entire enterprise of morality as a chain of material implication following from axioms (very attractive to a computer scientist!) into doubt. Which, I've been told, casts me out into the great despair of postmodernism where we don't have access to any meaning or oughts at all. I'd love to talk about this with someone who knows more about it, since my philosophical education pretty much comprises a single ethics course in university, some existentialist literature, some SEP reading, and a whole lot of PEL episodes.
- wutbrodo 10y ago
  > It's thus nearly impossible to reason with reasonable people here, simply because the psychological consequence of losing the argument is so strong. I'd dispute the characterization of these people as reasonable, but given how common it is, I suppose I'm descending into pedantry a bit here. It may seem enormously childish (and it is), but I know very few people who seem able to acknowledge that an action of theirs may not be the optimally moral one. Almost universally, this baseline of ethical maturity is replaced with twisted, desperate contortionate reasoning as to why their actions are actually in the morally superior one. I personally still eat meat; I tried vegetarianism a few years ago but started weightlifting shortly after, which tends to have a pretty profound effect on my appetite and dietary needs. The difference is that I acknowledge that this is a moral failing of mine: I'm not a morally perfect being.
f000g00b00gar 10y ago
Vegan here. Did it after watching a Dr. Michael Greger talk two years ago. Best decision I've ever made, for myself, for the animals, and for the planet.
pdog 10y ago
The vast majority of people trying to form any new habit will revert to their old behavior. This is human nature and has nothing to do with diet.
donpdonp 10y ago
when choosing when and where to eat meat, please consider the the living conditions of the animal. Free range chickens (and their eggs) and pasture-raised grass-fed beef are ways to vote with your dollar for cleaner water and healthier animals.
- f000g00b00gar 10y ago
  Or go a step further and don't pay for animal abuse at all, by eating vegan.
okreallywtf 10y ago
I've been a vegetarian for basically my entire life although I'm not nearly as strict as vegans, these days I have adjusted it for protein availability and cruelty concerns. I eat probably 80% plant based but I eat eggs (farm raised ideally, free range and then cage free by order of priority) some cheese and some fish (though more and more I'm looking to cut that out entirely). When anyone I know decides to try being a vegetarian they usually ask me about it (or just tell me about it) and my observation has been that a lot of people decide they want to be vegan and will do it for a few months before they drop back to just being a normal vegetarian and maybe a few months of that they drop back to just a reduced meat diet. I try to warn people to not go from a high meat diet to vegan because a) afaik its not good for the body and b) its much harder that way but people rarely listen. The end result is OK in that they reduce their meat consumption but its much easier to do if you have realistic goals. You are not going to decide to run a marathon and just immediately do it, you need attainable goals along the way and that is what I think a lot of people miss. That and the more restrictive you are the harder it is socially (going out to eat, parties, etc) although that has gotten a LOT better in the last 10 years.
danielmain 10y ago
Even by reducing meat consumption you need to know that a poor animal had to die just because of your taste.
Oxitendwe 10y ago
I was a rather devout vegetarian for a long time, about five years. I wouldn't eat anything with any meat or meat byproducts whatsoever, and if something I used to enjoy was found to have any, I would stop eating it. I cared about it a lot, and it was really important to me, because I didn't want to be complicit in the suffering of other living things. Eventually I was with some people, and they offered me meat to eat. I didn't want to say no and seem rude or embarrass myself, so I told myself it was okay if it was just once. Shortly afterwards, I noticed that as much as I thought that I didn't want to be complicit in the suffering of other living things, when I actually did it on purpose, it didn't really bother me. I didn't feel bad at all. I didn't care or empathize as much as I thought I did. I realized then that it was all fake - all of the time I thought I had done it because I didn't want to make other things suffer, when really the reason I had done it was to feel like I was being compassionate and doing good. It obviously was just a personal choice I had made for myself, and not on behalf of some abstract creatures I had never even seen before. It's exactly as selfish as eating meat, in that the only reason to do it is how it makes you feel - it doesn't affect the animals themselves, because all you're doing is... not buying their meat after they already die. Good for you. My typical argument for how vegetarianism helped the animals themselves was that reducing demand for their meat would lead to less of them being killed, but this is so indirect and insignificant that the end result (demand for meat) would probably be the same if you had steak every night. There are far more effective ways to reduce demand for meat, and for virtually all of them it doesn't matter if you yourself actually eat any. Therefore, my experiences have led me to believe vegetarianism/veganism's primary function is masturbatory virtue signalling.
matthewbauer 10y ago
I think "US" needs to be added to title. The majority of vegetarians live in India and Indians have been living this way for over 2000 years.
tetraodonpuffer 10y ago
being plant based these days is way easier and simpler than it's ever been (at least in North America), there are so many plant-based alternative foods one can buy in stores which makes it extremely easy to do so. The main, major issue being plant based full time is eating out with others: if you are plant based every single meal there will be comments and discussions about how you eat, why you eat something vs something else, how your interlocutor could be eating better but they don't have time/money/... to do so and on and on. Some former plant-based people will tell you that one of the best side-effects of not being plant based anymore is that during means you can talk about "something else". This is magnified if you have to regularly eat out for work / with clients, where you can easily be put in the situation that you have to decide if you want to be plant based full time or plant based in private only. To me this is the main difficulty with transitioning to a full time plant based diet: unless your circle of friends is ok with that (even better if they are plant based themselves) and unless your work situation is compatible with that and unless your coworkers are ok with that, it is very likely that in the long run you will fail due to having to decide between eating how you want, and having an easy time in your social/work life. In my opinion this is why health-based plant based folks stick with the diet less, because unless you truly have a deep belief in what you are doing, it is really easy to say "it's not worth it" and it's a lot more likely you can have a strong belief in the ethics of being plant based than in an abstract concept of healthy eating
Mendenhall 10y ago
Side note I think if you are going to eat meat its of value to actually kill an animal yourself for food a few times (legally). Specially something large like a deer etc. I found it sad and sobering but in a personal growth sort of way. I find its helpful to grasp the reality of animals dying so you can live. Even something like raising chickens then having to kill one can make you think. I enjoy meat and eat it but do so less now. Actually harvesting my own meat sometimes keeps the sobering practice in mind and also keeps me very cognizant of their lives etc. I dont take the practice for granted at all and I find it helps my perspective. Also I find I want to use every part of the animal when I do that. Keep skin if applicable for leather etc, learn to cook the organs that you may not buy from store. Even cook marrow and carve bones etc. I find it sort of the respectful thing to do if I am going to kill something so I can eat.
- douche 10y ago
  There's nothing so delicious as fresh backstrap, tenderloin and heart out of a buck that's been fattening itself up all summer on your vegetable garden.
ben_w 10y ago
Two hopefully interesting factoids: 1) The words "vegetarian" and "zoophile" used to be synonymous (because literally "animal lover"); but 2) the modern group of that name (animal fanciers) are vegetarian or vegan with exactly the same frequency as the general population, to within the margin of error of the survey. I'm a vegetarian. You might be surprised how often this comes up when people try to convince me to eat meat. Completely fails to convince anyone, of course.
- Pxtl 10y ago
  The animal lovers who aren't at least vegetarian bewilders me. There's a woman on my FB feed who rescues unwanted guinea pigs and rabbits and fights against horse slaughter. Loves meat. I totally can't get it, but I don't need to start fights in my social circle.
dahart 10y ago
This really ought to be at least compared to the rate people stick to other diets. Diets are super difficult to stick to, they are a lifestyle change that is more difficult to make than most people who start them are actually prepared for. I say this after having not stuck to "several" diets. After reading the article, the title feels really click-baity. The actual national trend discussed in the article is in the direction of more meat-eaters trying out a vegetarian diet. To summarize this as veg diets failing is to mischaracterize the trend.
kentosi 10y ago
I consider myself to be a "closet vegan" because I only buy plant-based groceries to prepare and cook at home. It's when I go out that I eat meat/dairy to fit into my social circles. It sounds sad, but it's my reality: I've moved to a new city and I need friends. I've had moments in the past when I've attempted to dive into full vegan and failed, mostly because I (a) had no idea how to cook food in the first place, and (b) didn't know the first thing about nutrition. I feel like what I'm doing now is a good first step. Whether I become a full-time vegan or not is left to be seen.
interfixus 10y ago
What's with all the -isms? I don't eat meat. It's an ethical thing. And I really, really do not need to box myself into some defined ideology.
armandososa 10y ago
My wife recently became a vegetarian (as recent as a couple months, after years of wanting to) and it is super hard. I want to support her but it is oh so hard. My guess is that it is easier in some other countries but in Mexico it is super hard, specially considering we are on a low-carb diet (I'm a type 2 diabetic). I'm eating dramatically less meat because of this, but it made me realise that I could not ever be a vegetarian or --gasp-- a vegan. I'm not dumb, I understand the ethical implications but I had to accept that I'm a selfish bastard in this regard. I have no vices, I can't already eat sweets or cakes, I don't want to give up meat too. It's pure selfishness.
- phyrex 10y ago
  It's actually Mexico. I've been vegetarian for 16 years and have been all over the place and it's really been the hardest in Mexico.
mido22 10y ago
former meat eater, turned vegan about 3 years ago, what other vegans fail to you is... it's a trap, why you ask? 1. the constant hunger 2. need for b12 supplements 3. oh, you enjoy traveling the world, good luck finding vegan food in villages of Philippines, or Bratislava. Personally, suffered in these cities among others 4. better start liking those salads and bland pastas and pizzas without cheese, either that or fries in some restaurants here in Sweden It is not a easy life, so I understand why some give up, quite surprised that I haven't (yet!). P.S : Bratislava does have one awesome vegan kiosk
njharman 10y ago
Being vegetarian really changed my "biology" and "mentality". After a few years I was super sensitive to meat. Could smell it, even just broth, in food. It would make me somewhat sick if I ate it. I think you loose enzymes needed to break it down. Meat stopped being food to me. Was not hungry for it, did not think mmmmm when I smelled it. A few more years and I was repulsed by site of raw meat. When I saw chicken on bone all I could think of was muscles and bones in my own arm and how I wouldn't eat that! I started (and ended) being vegetarian for health reasons. Somewhere along the way I concluded it was morally wrong to eat meat esp mammals. No one convinced me, it just arose from mental and physical changes. I was / am kind of shocked I feel that way. After 12-14 years being vegetarian I started eating meat again. I still believe it is morally wrong. I actually went to aqurium to tell fish that I was sorry that I was going to start eating them. Guess I was resolving guilt i felt. I struggle a lot with depression. After trying many things with no success, I decided I needed meat. Can't be sure correlation, but health is better now. I feel guilty eating animals, but I'm selfish enough/depression sucks enough for me to put my health before (some of) my morals. That's me, YMMV.
amriksohata 10y ago
Vegetarian here, no plan to return to meat... ever. Got to love the anti veg propoganda though by the food industry heavily lobbying (and worried) about their profits.
mnm1 10y ago
I recently started eating meat after over a decade of being a vegetarian. I simply got sick of the available selection of food and how extremely expensive and poor it is. If you cook very little, like me, it's very likely a vegetarian diet is less healthy simply because of the food that's available, often processed things filled with sugar. Either that, or you're spending serious money every day eating out with no guarantee that the food is nutritional either. Ironically, while leaving the US increases the quality and variety of many foods, the variety of vegetarian food available in many countries abroad is even worse. The market simply does not serve vegetarians well. Or perhaps, the market simply does not serve anyone who doesn't cook/cooks little well. I think it's probably a bit of both. These types of day to day logistical challenges of being a vegetarian are the most difficult to overcome, IMO. If restaurants with a variety of healthy, vegetarian, decently-priced food existed, I likely wouldn't have quit.
- ralfd 10y ago
  Did it just sort of happen or was it a conscious decision by you? It is no coincidence that eating rules are common in many religions, adhering to a special diet is practically a ritual, so I wonder if it was a big deal to you.
  - mnm1 10y ago
    Oh, it was very conscious. I think the decision had been building up for some time, however, probably subconsciously. I first went back to eating fish for half a year (I was a pescatarian for five years before being a vegetarian) and when that seemed ok, I decided to eat any meat. This latter decision was even more deliberate as I had just moved out and no longer lived with someone who cooked delicious vegetarian stuff every day. I try to limit sugar these days, at least keeping it to one dessert a day. That was, I think, the main motivating factor. I'm in no way low-carb, but cutting out as much sugar, especially from non-dessert foods, has definitely been a huge win. Morally, my views have not changed at all. In my moral framework, my own needs always must come first. So nothing has changed morally and therefore, it hasn't been an actual problem. I'm not saying it was totally easy and that I didn't think a lot about it both before and after, but it has been quite beneficial to both my mind set and waistline so accepting it has been easy.
ChoGGi 10y ago
While I'm not technically a vegetarian (chicken stock on a fairly regular basis). I'm 35 and haven't eaten any meat/fish since I was about 12, saying a few months to a year doesn't sound like being a vegetarian. It seems more like trying out a vegetarian diet then anything else. Personally I just find the thought of eating meat disgusting, Though I could care less if anyone else around me eats it.
anotherevan 10y ago
Some of the comments about reducing meat consumption reminded me of a short TED talk about being a Weekday Vegetarian, which is pretty self explanatory. https://www.ted.com/talks/graham_hill_weekday_vegetarian https://www.ted.com/talks/graham_hill_weekday_vegetarian

117 points by curtis 10y ago

Does this include people who grew up vegetarian? I suspect people who are vegetarian for cultural reasons (e.g. myself) would have a much lower chance of "returning" to Meat (don't know if I would even call it returning) than those who initially ate meat, became vegetarians, and then went back to eating meat. Also surprised that only 2% of Americans are vegetarian, but probably because I've lived in California most of my life.. I also wonder what percent of Americans eat meat 1 or more days / week, 2 days / week, etc..

timthelion 10y ago

Vegetarians and vegans, unlike catholics, don't have a comunity of people who will call them up and ask them why they haven't been attending service. Being vegetarian and vegan is also much more involved than christianity. You can be a serial killer and still be a christian, but you cannot be a vegan if you eat meat once. We also lack a confessional culture in which sins can be forgiven and stray sheep can come back to the fold. That's something we really need. Too many people slip up once and feal that they are carnivores again.

wyager 10y ago
It's unfortunate that you're being downvoted; that's a very interesting social analysis. I hadn't thought about confession operating as a relief valve for deviations from difficult social rules.
- nthcolumn 10y ago
  beware lions claiming to be veggie...
bogle 10y ago
The article implied you were more likely to remain a veggie if you lived with other veggies. They also cited not wishing to stand out as a reason for lapsing. I don't think, however, it would help someone remain veggie for long if it was being imposed on them in any way. The important points raised that may help a veggie stay the course would be to educate them on the environmental and moral implications of eating meat. Freedom of choice then rather than the imposition of a culture.
metamet 10y ago
> Too many people slip up once and feal that they are carnivores again. Well, aren't they? If you have a moral conviction for abstaining from meat, shouldn't that be enough to keep you coming back to your straight and narrow? Humans have eaten meat for so long that it's engrained into our biochemistry. I imagine that trying to adjust to a diet that isn't based in our evolutionary framework requires some form of personal conviction and a social structure that reinforces it.
- CapitalistCartr 10y ago
  I have a moral conviction to not steal, yet when I was four, I stole another kid's Matchbook car (an ambulance) during recess at the Headstart program. My moral conviction isn't thereby lessened.
- f000g00b00gar 10y ago
  > Humans have eaten meat for so long that it's engrained into our biochemistry. There are no physiological adaptations humans have to eating meat. We've been eating fruit for many millions of years longer; that is our natural diet.
- fredsir 10y ago
  > Humans have eaten meat for so long that it's engrained into our biochemistry. I imagine that trying to adjust to a diet that isn't based in our evolutionary framework requires some form of personal conviction and a social structure that reinforces it. I don't believe that we have any instincts for eating meat like you suggest. It's not like a human is even capable of ripping fur and skin apart with our mouth, crushing bones with our teeth and tearing fresh meat off an animal and eating it. Well, not without getting sore in the jaw, broken teeth and probably a lot of sicknesses leading to death from the uncooked (or handled in any way) meat. If you put a baby in front of a animal, the baby won't think of it as food. We are not carnivores. We have simply learned to also eat meat. There's nothing about us requiring us to eat meat as long as we can get food from another sources. I've been vegan for 3 years. The only hard thing about it is other peoples comments and not as many vegan friendly restaurant, although already in 2017, two new places have opened in my town, and it looks like it's a trend that will continue.
nthcolumn 10y ago
Didn't you mean 'veal'? I don't think catholics call you up if you don't go to mass, or you can justifiably call yourself one if you are on your big spring killing spree although you might say you are a a vegan even if you had a BigMac when you were a kid. I'm not sure why it helps to conflate the two. I don't see many similarities other than eating tiny crackers. FWIW I stopped being a veggie because it was just too hard in Aussie and nearly all the veggie stuff was soya based and not much better for the environment than eating meat and I got really sick of bloody pumpkin soup being literally the only veg soup, that and bacon...
heurist 10y ago
Most vegans I've met are "mostly vegan". Occasionally eating meat is not a big deal. The problems start when they're the main part of your diet - you start increasing your disk of heart disease, diabetes, colon cancer, etc while also perpetuating environmental degredation. All very costly to society.
_dark_matter_ 10y ago
Eh, I disagree with this analysis. I consider myself vegan yet when we go out I'll surely eat some cheese, and once or twice a year I'll have a bit of meat. The "no community of judgement" goes both ways here, and honestly I don't really care what other people think anyways :)
mamcx 10y ago
> You can be a serial killer and still be a christian No. If you stick to what the Bible/Jesus say. You can be a former bad person, but to get the approval of God you must repent and stop doing terrible things. Being both is being hypocrite, and that is probably the worse of all, ie: Jesus dislike more the hypocrite than the honest sinner that acknowledge his own faults.

regnum 10y ago

After I watched Forks Over Knives on Netflix it took me about 2 years to become 100% plant based, but I've been doing it now for over a year and I can guarantee you I'll never go back. I work in an industry where I see the side effects of the Standard American Diet, and if you saw the health effects I see you'd switch too. Here in Austin we have several monthly potlucks based upon the Plant Pure Nation pods idea, which makes it easier to find like minded people and new recipes. Also, Facebook groups like McDougall Friends is great for support, if you need it.

jp555 10y ago
If emergency room doctors made laws, motorcycles would be illegal. We're all susceptible to being deluded by our naive realism. Like how I think anyone driving faster than me is a maniac and anyone driving slower is a moron. The objective reality is that everybody thinks that.
- kinkrtyavimoodh 10y ago
  Or perhaps they'd be subsidized as it brings them business :P
  - Neliquat 10y ago
    I wish. The insurance on my R1 outweighs my other bikes and cars, combined. And I honestly can't blame them. That thing is breathtakingly fast.
- f000g00b00gar 10y ago
  Naive is eating animals and then complaining about our species' extinction as a result of climate change. The two are exorbitantly linked - global warming and killing animals.
- deegles 10y ago
  This study found that 70% of drivers think they're "above average": http://www.theaa.ie/blog/70-of-drivers-rate-themselves-as-above-average/ http://www.theaa.ie/blog/70-of-drivers-rate-themselves-as-ab...

Theodores 10y ago

The vast amount of smokers who quit smoking eventually return to the newsagents to pay lots of money for some tobacco. However there is a second category of people that have never smoked, and are totally unlikely to do so. Vegetarian/vegan dieting is a bit like this. There are lots of people that try going vegan and then they only last so long at it, probably boring everyone to death with their 'meat is murder' views. Meanwhile, in India and plenty of other places, are those that actually are vegetarian, having grown up that way and not indoctrinated at a young age into the meat eating cult. For these people the logic of suddenly starting to eat meat makes as much sense as taking up smoking, after an impressionable teenage this does not happen. Disclosure: yes I am vegetarian and I own a leather belt!!!

umeshunni 10y ago
> in India and plenty of other places, are those that actually are vegetarian, having grown up that way and not indoctrinated at a young age into the meat eating cult On the other hand, they are indoctrinated at a young age to not eat meat (and to look down upon those that do).
- danans 10y ago
  I would also add that the majority of Indians are not vegetarian, especially in the south and east: http://m.huffingtonpost.in/2016/06/14/how-india-eats_n_10434374.html http://m.huffingtonpost.in/2016/06/14/how-india-eats_n_10434...
- calvinbhai 10y ago
  Not necessarily. There's so much variety in india wrt nutritious and tasty vegetarian and vegan foods, indoctrinitaion is tougher. The only non Indian cuisines that have some veggie options are probably Ethiopian and Mediterranean. But I haven't seen many varieties of those in US. Meat eating is expensive (comparatively) and hence it's an another great barrier for many people to try. I'm so pro veggie food even after consuming dairy products, chicken,eggs and occasional beef and pork. That's primarily because I grew up in India and I believe veggie food in India is way better than any other non meat cuisine.

NhanH 10y ago

One thing worth noting is that regardless of one's personal reasons to be vegan/ vegetarian , being 90% vegan WILL almost always be 90% effective for said reason. This is not to dispute anything from the article. Just a reminder that if you sympathize or relate with any cause to reduce animal product usage, you don't have to be "vegan" or "vegetarian", just try to reduce your consumption to the point where it starts to inconvenient you.

colordrops 10y ago
More generally, black and white thinking is often less effective than thinking in scales.
- dionidium 10y ago
  Is this really true? I was a vegetarian for 10 years. It was easy. Meat was verboten. Full stop. I never had to negotiate it with myself. But, now, at any individual meal I can convince myself that it's no big deal to eat a little meat. Crucially, I can convince myself of that for several days in a row. If the end goal is less meat, then, for me, the results were clear: black and white thinking was far more effective.
  - ch4s3 10y ago
    Have you tried rate limiting? Or setting other simple rules? For example say: 5 servings of meat per week max, and only 1 of red meat?
  - xexers 10y ago
    Agreed. I am normally a very nuanced person who tries hard to see all sides of an issue... but with my vegetarian diet, I find total abstinence to be the best thing. Eating a little bit of meat requires will power to not eat too much... and I have a limited reserve of will power which I want to save for other things in my life. I've been vegetarian for 9 years.
  - colordrops 10y ago
    Far more effective for you as an individual, but has it been far more effective in the reduction of the absolute amount of meat that has been eaten world-wide?

rocky1138 10y ago

The title should be changed to reflect that this is in the US only.

DominikPeters 10y ago
Title should also include "(2014)"
smnrchrds 10y ago
This is very important. India probably has more vegetarians than the rest of the world combined. If you are culturally vegetarian, born and raised in a vegetarian household, had vegetarian meals your whole life, and surrounded by vegetarians, there is little chance that you would start eating meat anytime soon. However, in the US where almost everyone is non-vegetarian, it is understandable why people who convert to vegetarianism might convert back.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

charia 10y ago

This article forgets to mention that the same report says that most people who are vegetarian for 3 years or more stay vegetarian for the rest of their lives. The "vast majority" here are probably people who tried it and stuck around for a couple of months before quitting. Just like any other "fad" diet.

welpwelp 10y ago
I was also looking for a mention of such a statistic. I have been vegetarian for 2+ years, occasionally cheat with sea food, but the idea of eating animal flesh grosses me out and i don't think I'll ever turn back.
- ovulator 10y ago
  I've been vegetarian for 10+ years, "lapsed" for a few months after my life was turned upside down by a series of events but quickly just went back to vegetarianism because it was easier for me. Once you get into a routine, you'll probably stick with it.

deepnotderp 10y ago

The thing is, if you want to reduce dependence upon animal products and increase sustainability, you can expend 20% of the effort to go 80% of the way, and not spend another 80% of your effort to go the last 20%. The pareto optimal curve is a real concept, and you don't need to go full vegetarian or vegan for you and the planet to reap the benefits.

maxxxxx 10y ago
That's what I tell a lot of people. Reduce meat by 90% and you already do a lot of good. 90% reduction is pretty easy to do.
ScottBurson 10y ago
Having been a semi-vegetarian for over 25 years, I agree completely. I eat yogurt and cheese frequently, eggs or poultry a couple of times a week, and the occasional fish; never beef or pork. It works for me.
- f000g00b00gar 10y ago
  It may "work" for you, but it's certainly not working for the planet, nor for the animals you're paying to literally abuse and torture. This is called selfishness and it's morally repugnant.
scholia 10y ago
Absolutely agree. There are also animal products that can be produced ethically, including eggs, milk, cheese and yogurt. In passing, anybody who eats a lot of salads also eats at least a few insects ;-)

Danihan 10y ago

I used to be vegan, for three plus years. I can't recommend the diet. It was extremely unhealthy for me, personally. Over a period of time I developed allergies to both soy protein and gluten that I never had in my early twenties, allergies that never went away after I returned to eating meat. YMMV From an ethical perspective too, I no longer believe the hype that diets should be "more efficient." I believe humans are too efficient already, and what more efficiency provides us, practically speaking, is simply more humans and more over-population, with worse living conditions long-term for most of those new people. India is often touted as a very vegetarian country, but I can't believe that sort of population density is a good thing. I'd prefer everyone eat a rather "inefficient" diet with lots of open space for animals to graze.

fredsir 10y ago
Did you try simply stopping with the soy protein and gluten consumption? In any case, I hardly see how going back to an animal-including diet changes anything on that front. Soy is not vegan-only, and neither is gluten. You can easily live on a vegan diet without those things, and you can easily live on a non-vegan diet including those things. Seems more like a weak excuse if you ask me.
- Danihan 10y ago
  To be clear, you think it's "easy" to live on a diet without any animal products, and also without soy or gluten, and that I'm "weak" for not doing so, despite other health issues I had on the diet? This is another aspect of veganism that really turns me off, the pervasive self-righteousness within the community at large. Please tell me what restaurants I could visit with those dietary restrictions? And what quick lunches / fast food I can buy on that diet, on say a 30 minute lunch break, for instance...?
  - John23832 10y ago
    > To be clear, you think it's "easy" to live on a diet without any animal products, and also without soy or gluten, and that I'm "weak" for not doing so, despite other health issues I had on the diet? This is another aspect of veganism that completely turns me off, the pervasive self-righteousness within the community at large. Please tell me what restaurants I could visit with those dietary restrictions? And what quick lunches / fast food I can buy on that diet, on say a 30 minute lunch break, for instance...? People don't really realize what they eat, especially when it comes to gluten and soy. I developed a wheat allergy after college (which my doctor said was caused by stress and working in a pizzaria full of wheat) which caused me to have to switch to a gluten free diet. That means your prepared meal options are massively reduced, more of your time is spend cooking (which imo is a good thing, I'm conscious about what I eat now), and if you do eat out, take on a "gluten-free tax". People who go on these holier-than-though fad diets don't understand what people who actually have dietary needs go through. There is no wiggle room for us. If we don't follow our diets there are real and serious medical consequences. We don't just "feel down on ourselves" for not following the diet and the strictness with which we must follow our diets cause real inconveniences.

fredsir 10y ago

To sum it up: people are weak. Who knew? > In other words, from the advocacy group’s perspective, health can be an effective “foot in the door” approach to increasing the number of vegetarians and vegans, but often not enough to keep people animal-free for the long-term. Not even their own health is a big enough factor for them to control their lust. > “The latest findings once again show that a message focused on reduction instead of elimination of animal products may be more effective to create an overall decline in animal product consumption,” the report says. “Advocates would be well advised to soften their appeals to avoid suggesting the choice is all or nothing.” I wonder if those vegetarians/vegans that returned to eating animal products returned 100%, or in a reduced manner. That's the really interesting bit unfortunately missing from the article. If people reduce their animal products usage with, say, 50% vs someone going vegan for a few months and then returns to animal products with a 50% reduction, they will ultimately have had a bigger impact than people "only" doing the reduction. Personally, all the vegetarians/vegans I know that have gone back have done it because it was too hard in social settings, but the experience have resulted in them reducing their use of animal products to "rarely" or "at social occasions" or "when it's not hard to skip on it", and that's a pretty big reduction.

Ductapemaster 10y ago
As someone who grew up vegetarian, I take a bit of offense at you calling it "lust" and that those who return are "weak". That's a very black and white view of an issue with a whole lot of grey. I'm one of those people you mention who went back because it was hard in social settings. For context, I stopped being vegetarian because I wanted to be more free to eat with my friends and family. It was incredibly hard growing up, as I could rarely have dinner at a friends house or eat meals in Boy Scouts. People didn't want to eat food that I cooked because there wasn't meat in it, so no one ate at my house. Even going out to restaurants was hard. Telling people I didn't want to go to their favorite burger joint on a road trip is challenging when you do it all the time. I had to either bow out of social situations and do my own thing, bring my own food, or not eat. Going through that for my entire childhood definitely changed me. You have to fight against the ingrained American mentality that meat always belongs at the table. You have to make people leave their comfort zones or do extra work in order to accommodate your needs. You have to be comfortable being "that person" who isn't normal. It wears on you over time, and at some point it just wasn't worth it any more. Now, I eat meat occasionally when I go out and I cook it for special occasions at home. Otherwise my meals are vegetarian most of the time. I enjoy meat in a limited capacity, and I personally want to keep it that way. I wish those who advocated for vegetarianism and veganism had some more capacity to see consumption reduction as aligned their cause. Black and white views exist on both sides here, and I think the solution is somewhere in the middle. Eat meat when its special. In my opinion it tastes better and you appreciate it more!

adamors 10y ago

Post from 2014 linking to research that is no longer available.

3131s 10y ago
https://faunalytics.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Faunalytics_Current-Former-Vegetarians_Full-Report.pdf https://faunalytics.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Faunalyti...

jplasmeier 10y ago

As a personal anecdote, I was a vegetarian for ~3 years from late in high school to junior year of college. It was definitely a valuable experience that afforded me much perspective into my diet, the diets of others, and food in general. When I started eating meat again it was under a vague condition to eat "good" meat, that is, either cooked fresh by my mother, or from a higher-end restaurant. This eroded a bit and after a year or so I was back to eating meat relatively unabashedly again. A few days ago I spent my entire Saturday vomiting bile from food poisoning ($CMG is the top suspect), and now I'm back to my post-vegetarianism habits of being careful about the meat I consume. I'm aware of probability and statistics, so this is somewhat irrational in that sense, but I suppose my point is that I'm grateful for the experience I had of being vegetarian and I think everyone should try it for as long as they can. EDIT: Oh, perhaps the most shocking part of the experience was how few people knew what the difference between being pescetarian, vegetarian, and vegan is, as well as dealing with all manner of assholes who couldn't fathom why anyone would do such a thing to themselves. EDIT2: As for health, it bears mentioning that I knew a couple people who are/were vegetarians and had much worse diets than many non-vegetarians. Naively substituting a chicken breast for a block of cheese is _not_ healthy! EDIT3: I made a point of almost never asking my friends to pick somewhere more vegetarian friendly. Almost anywhere, I could deal with. Notable exceptions were seafood restaurants and anywhere in the South of the USA. There's only so many onion rings one can stand!

douche 10y ago
> I was a vegetarian for ~3 years from late in high school to junior year of college Observationally, this seems to be a stage that many young people go through at that time of life. At least on the surface - I've seen far too many "vegetarians" and "vegans" wolfing down greasy pepperoni pizza, blacked out at 3AM in my college days.
- ASpring 10y ago
  > I've seen far too many "vegetarians" and "vegans" wolfing down greasy pepperoni pizza, blacked out at 3AM in my college days. Why is this still a trope? Being vegetarian or vegan does not require perfection. Think about how absurd this standard is. If you've ever done something unkind you are no longer a kind person. If you've ever written poor code, you are no longer a good programmer. This kind of thinking is a huge deterrent to people being vegan or vegetarian. If they ever have a lapse in judgement or decision making they just give up completely because of this line of thinking.

kinkrtyavimoodh 10y ago

A major issue with a lot of vegetarian / vegan diets is that they try to create vegetarian / vegan versions of what are fundamentally non-veg foods. This always ends up with people finding the veg version of something just an inferior tasting version of the 'actual' thing deprived of its primary component (the meat) and seasoned with some moral righteousness. Instead of this, people should try to design these dishes ground up, and look at vegetarian cuisines around the world (Indian would be a great place to start) for inspiration.

Neliquat 10y ago
As an omnivore, nothing annoys me more than my well intentioned veggie friends trying to serve me the vegie version of everything. It's gross to me, and it represents what they are trying to distance yourself from. Its like christian rock. It makes both things worse, while attempting in good faith, to celebrate them. Just cook kickass food that tastes good and meets your needs. Edit: just reread, and I sound dickish. I, of course, am flattered by their attempt at accomidation. But veggie bacon is bad, and someone needs to tell you. We still love you.
- fredsir 10y ago
  I agree mostly, but you specifically mention veggie bacon (theres probably many kinds but what I like is rice paper cut and seasoned like bacon) and that thing specifically rock! I have more non-vegan family members and friends that have asked for the recipe after tasting it than anything else. It's also a lot cheaper, a lot healthier and as crunchy as you'd like it.
- fnovd 10y ago
  I used to feel the same way before I went vegan. I don't try to push substitutes on non-vegans because I know their palettes aren't adjusted, but if I want to make a BLT, I have no choice but to use veggie-bacon. The rest of the sandwich is already vegan. Most vegans aren't really trying to distance themselves from non-vegan foods, just the unfortunate consequences of producing those foods. Most vegans don't have a problem with pepperoni pizza, for example. Just the source of the pepperoni (and cheese.)

fnovd 10y ago

The title seems misleading to me. According to the article: >A third-of people abandoned their animal-free diets in three months or less, and more than half abandoned it within the first year. Are you really a vegan or vegetarian if you break in 3 months? In 1 year? Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that 1 in 5 people who attempt to go vegan/vegetarian succeed? I'm a vegan and I'm active in my local vegan/vegetarian community. There are two camps: people who do it for ethical reasons and people who do it for for health. People who do it for health usually give up and move on to whatever fad diet becomes popular. People who subscribe to the ethics rarely quit. We have a saying: there's no such thing as a former vegan. Just someone who tried the diet.

DenisM 10y ago
This is a text-book example of the "no true Scotsman" fallacy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
- fnovd 10y ago
  Is it, though? I mean, I can see the similarity, but ethical veg*nism does exist outside of the dietary practice. You don't need to subscribe to the ethics to partake in the diet. We lack the words to distinguish between and ethical vegan and a for-health vegan, but that doesn't mean they aren't distinct groups.
  - iamatworknow 10y ago
    Does it matter? What difference does it make if someone who's been a vegan for 3 months calls themself a vegan? Are they "harming the movement" by doing so? If partaking in the diet doesn't require you to subscribe to the ethics, as you say, then the label should just be a label: someone who doesn't eat animal products. No time frame or reasoning attached.
    - ohbleek 10y ago
      It's like the difference between a long-term member and someone on a trial membership. There is a difference.

ahelwer 10y ago

For me, an almost-always vegan who eats cheese or meat in social settings, it was a general despair that the moral argument for veganism is so simple. It's easy to intellectually coast in this area for a while, because all the arguments meat-eaters present in favor of eating meat are so astonishingly and universally dumb - we evolved to eat meat, meat gives me pleasure (ignoring consequences of that maxim), some distinction between humans and animals which falls apart under scrutiny or has consequences for treatment of the mentally disabled, etc. I've seen even very intelligent people put these forward. Converting from meat-eating to veganism carries with it a component of acknowledging an underlying personally-applicable horror in the world which is similar, I would say, to becoming atheist. It's thus nearly impossible to reason with reasonable people here, simply because the psychological consequence of losing the argument is so strong. PETA recognizes this, which is why their videos focus on the graphic ugliness of the meat industry to provoke an emotional reaction. Anyway. I originally really liked the moral arguments for veganism as forwarded by Peter Singer, which of course is very similar to his argument in Famine, Affluence, and Morality - it's pretty much impossible to accept one but not the other. I have more problems with the consequences of the FAM argument - that we inexorably ought to use all our life for the benefit of others if we profess to care for others at all. This, to me, is such an absurd consequence as to throw the entire enterprise of morality as a chain of material implication following from axioms (very attractive to a computer scientist!) into doubt. Which, I've been told, casts me out into the great despair of postmodernism where we don't have access to any meaning or oughts at all. I'd love to talk about this with someone who knows more about it, since my philosophical education pretty much comprises a single ethics course in university, some existentialist literature, some SEP reading, and a whole lot of PEL episodes.

wutbrodo 10y ago
> It's thus nearly impossible to reason with reasonable people here, simply because the psychological consequence of losing the argument is so strong. I'd dispute the characterization of these people as reasonable, but given how common it is, I suppose I'm descending into pedantry a bit here. It may seem enormously childish (and it is), but I know very few people who seem able to acknowledge that an action of theirs may not be the optimally moral one. Almost universally, this baseline of ethical maturity is replaced with twisted, desperate contortionate reasoning as to why their actions are actually in the morally superior one. I personally still eat meat; I tried vegetarianism a few years ago but started weightlifting shortly after, which tends to have a pretty profound effect on my appetite and dietary needs. The difference is that I acknowledge that this is a moral failing of mine: I'm not a morally perfect being.

f000g00b00gar 10y ago

Vegan here. Did it after watching a Dr. Michael Greger talk two years ago. Best decision I've ever made, for myself, for the animals, and for the planet.

pdog 10y ago

The vast majority of people trying to form any new habit will revert to their old behavior. This is human nature and has nothing to do with diet.

donpdonp 10y ago

when choosing when and where to eat meat, please consider the the living conditions of the animal. Free range chickens (and their eggs) and pasture-raised grass-fed beef are ways to vote with your dollar for cleaner water and healthier animals.

f000g00b00gar 10y ago
Or go a step further and don't pay for animal abuse at all, by eating vegan.

okreallywtf 10y ago

I've been a vegetarian for basically my entire life although I'm not nearly as strict as vegans, these days I have adjusted it for protein availability and cruelty concerns. I eat probably 80% plant based but I eat eggs (farm raised ideally, free range and then cage free by order of priority) some cheese and some fish (though more and more I'm looking to cut that out entirely). When anyone I know decides to try being a vegetarian they usually ask me about it (or just tell me about it) and my observation has been that a lot of people decide they want to be vegan and will do it for a few months before they drop back to just being a normal vegetarian and maybe a few months of that they drop back to just a reduced meat diet. I try to warn people to not go from a high meat diet to vegan because a) afaik its not good for the body and b) its much harder that way but people rarely listen. The end result is OK in that they reduce their meat consumption but its much easier to do if you have realistic goals. You are not going to decide to run a marathon and just immediately do it, you need attainable goals along the way and that is what I think a lot of people miss. That and the more restrictive you are the harder it is socially (going out to eat, parties, etc) although that has gotten a LOT better in the last 10 years.

danielmain 10y ago

Even by reducing meat consumption you need to know that a poor animal had to die just because of your taste.

Oxitendwe 10y ago

I was a rather devout vegetarian for a long time, about five years. I wouldn't eat anything with any meat or meat byproducts whatsoever, and if something I used to enjoy was found to have any, I would stop eating it. I cared about it a lot, and it was really important to me, because I didn't want to be complicit in the suffering of other living things. Eventually I was with some people, and they offered me meat to eat. I didn't want to say no and seem rude or embarrass myself, so I told myself it was okay if it was just once. Shortly afterwards, I noticed that as much as I thought that I didn't want to be complicit in the suffering of other living things, when I actually did it on purpose, it didn't really bother me. I didn't feel bad at all. I didn't care or empathize as much as I thought I did. I realized then that it was all fake - all of the time I thought I had done it because I didn't want to make other things suffer, when really the reason I had done it was to feel like I was being compassionate and doing good. It obviously was just a personal choice I had made for myself, and not on behalf of some abstract creatures I had never even seen before. It's exactly as selfish as eating meat, in that the only reason to do it is how it makes you feel - it doesn't affect the animals themselves, because all you're doing is... not buying their meat after they already die. Good for you. My typical argument for how vegetarianism helped the animals themselves was that reducing demand for their meat would lead to less of them being killed, but this is so indirect and insignificant that the end result (demand for meat) would probably be the same if you had steak every night. There are far more effective ways to reduce demand for meat, and for virtually all of them it doesn't matter if you yourself actually eat any. Therefore, my experiences have led me to believe vegetarianism/veganism's primary function is masturbatory virtue signalling.

matthewbauer 10y ago

I think "US" needs to be added to title. The majority of vegetarians live in India and Indians have been living this way for over 2000 years.

tetraodonpuffer 10y ago

being plant based these days is way easier and simpler than it's ever been (at least in North America), there are so many plant-based alternative foods one can buy in stores which makes it extremely easy to do so. The main, major issue being plant based full time is eating out with others: if you are plant based every single meal there will be comments and discussions about how you eat, why you eat something vs something else, how your interlocutor could be eating better but they don't have time/money/... to do so and on and on. Some former plant-based people will tell you that one of the best side-effects of not being plant based anymore is that during means you can talk about "something else". This is magnified if you have to regularly eat out for work / with clients, where you can easily be put in the situation that you have to decide if you want to be plant based full time or plant based in private only. To me this is the main difficulty with transitioning to a full time plant based diet: unless your circle of friends is ok with that (even better if they are plant based themselves) and unless your work situation is compatible with that and unless your coworkers are ok with that, it is very likely that in the long run you will fail due to having to decide between eating how you want, and having an easy time in your social/work life. In my opinion this is why health-based plant based folks stick with the diet less, because unless you truly have a deep belief in what you are doing, it is really easy to say "it's not worth it" and it's a lot more likely you can have a strong belief in the ethics of being plant based than in an abstract concept of healthy eating

Mendenhall 10y ago

Side note I think if you are going to eat meat its of value to actually kill an animal yourself for food a few times (legally). Specially something large like a deer etc. I found it sad and sobering but in a personal growth sort of way. I find its helpful to grasp the reality of animals dying so you can live. Even something like raising chickens then having to kill one can make you think. I enjoy meat and eat it but do so less now. Actually harvesting my own meat sometimes keeps the sobering practice in mind and also keeps me very cognizant of their lives etc. I dont take the practice for granted at all and I find it helps my perspective. Also I find I want to use every part of the animal when I do that. Keep skin if applicable for leather etc, learn to cook the organs that you may not buy from store. Even cook marrow and carve bones etc. I find it sort of the respectful thing to do if I am going to kill something so I can eat.

douche 10y ago
There's nothing so delicious as fresh backstrap, tenderloin and heart out of a buck that's been fattening itself up all summer on your vegetable garden.

ben_w 10y ago

Two hopefully interesting factoids: 1) The words "vegetarian" and "zoophile" used to be synonymous (because literally "animal lover"); but 2) the modern group of that name (animal fanciers) are vegetarian or vegan with exactly the same frequency as the general population, to within the margin of error of the survey. I'm a vegetarian. You might be surprised how often this comes up when people try to convince me to eat meat. Completely fails to convince anyone, of course.

Pxtl 10y ago
The animal lovers who aren't at least vegetarian bewilders me. There's a woman on my FB feed who rescues unwanted guinea pigs and rabbits and fights against horse slaughter. Loves meat. I totally can't get it, but I don't need to start fights in my social circle.

dahart 10y ago

This really ought to be at least compared to the rate people stick to other diets. Diets are super difficult to stick to, they are a lifestyle change that is more difficult to make than most people who start them are actually prepared for. I say this after having not stuck to "several" diets. After reading the article, the title feels really click-baity. The actual national trend discussed in the article is in the direction of more meat-eaters trying out a vegetarian diet. To summarize this as veg diets failing is to mischaracterize the trend.

kentosi 10y ago

I consider myself to be a "closet vegan" because I only buy plant-based groceries to prepare and cook at home. It's when I go out that I eat meat/dairy to fit into my social circles. It sounds sad, but it's my reality: I've moved to a new city and I need friends. I've had moments in the past when I've attempted to dive into full vegan and failed, mostly because I (a) had no idea how to cook food in the first place, and (b) didn't know the first thing about nutrition. I feel like what I'm doing now is a good first step. Whether I become a full-time vegan or not is left to be seen.

interfixus 10y ago

What's with all the -isms? I don't eat meat. It's an ethical thing. And I really, really do not need to box myself into some defined ideology.

armandososa 10y ago

My wife recently became a vegetarian (as recent as a couple months, after years of wanting to) and it is super hard. I want to support her but it is oh so hard. My guess is that it is easier in some other countries but in Mexico it is super hard, specially considering we are on a low-carb diet (I'm a type 2 diabetic). I'm eating dramatically less meat because of this, but it made me realise that I could not ever be a vegetarian or --gasp-- a vegan. I'm not dumb, I understand the ethical implications but I had to accept that I'm a selfish bastard in this regard. I have no vices, I can't already eat sweets or cakes, I don't want to give up meat too. It's pure selfishness.

phyrex 10y ago
It's actually Mexico. I've been vegetarian for 16 years and have been all over the place and it's really been the hardest in Mexico.

mido22 10y ago

former meat eater, turned vegan about 3 years ago, what other vegans fail to you is... it's a trap, why you ask? 1. the constant hunger 2. need for b12 supplements 3. oh, you enjoy traveling the world, good luck finding vegan food in villages of Philippines, or Bratislava. Personally, suffered in these cities among others 4. better start liking those salads and bland pastas and pizzas without cheese, either that or fries in some restaurants here in Sweden It is not a easy life, so I understand why some give up, quite surprised that I haven't (yet!). P.S : Bratislava does have one awesome vegan kiosk

njharman 10y ago

Being vegetarian really changed my "biology" and "mentality". After a few years I was super sensitive to meat. Could smell it, even just broth, in food. It would make me somewhat sick if I ate it. I think you loose enzymes needed to break it down. Meat stopped being food to me. Was not hungry for it, did not think mmmmm when I smelled it. A few more years and I was repulsed by site of raw meat. When I saw chicken on bone all I could think of was muscles and bones in my own arm and how I wouldn't eat that! I started (and ended) being vegetarian for health reasons. Somewhere along the way I concluded it was morally wrong to eat meat esp mammals. No one convinced me, it just arose from mental and physical changes. I was / am kind of shocked I feel that way. After 12-14 years being vegetarian I started eating meat again. I still believe it is morally wrong. I actually went to aqurium to tell fish that I was sorry that I was going to start eating them. Guess I was resolving guilt i felt. I struggle a lot with depression. After trying many things with no success, I decided I needed meat. Can't be sure correlation, but health is better now. I feel guilty eating animals, but I'm selfish enough/depression sucks enough for me to put my health before (some of) my morals. That's me, YMMV.

amriksohata 10y ago

Vegetarian here, no plan to return to meat... ever. Got to love the anti veg propoganda though by the food industry heavily lobbying (and worried) about their profits.

mnm1 10y ago

I recently started eating meat after over a decade of being a vegetarian. I simply got sick of the available selection of food and how extremely expensive and poor it is. If you cook very little, like me, it's very likely a vegetarian diet is less healthy simply because of the food that's available, often processed things filled with sugar. Either that, or you're spending serious money every day eating out with no guarantee that the food is nutritional either. Ironically, while leaving the US increases the quality and variety of many foods, the variety of vegetarian food available in many countries abroad is even worse. The market simply does not serve vegetarians well. Or perhaps, the market simply does not serve anyone who doesn't cook/cooks little well. I think it's probably a bit of both. These types of day to day logistical challenges of being a vegetarian are the most difficult to overcome, IMO. If restaurants with a variety of healthy, vegetarian, decently-priced food existed, I likely wouldn't have quit.

ralfd 10y ago
Did it just sort of happen or was it a conscious decision by you? It is no coincidence that eating rules are common in many religions, adhering to a special diet is practically a ritual, so I wonder if it was a big deal to you.
- mnm1 10y ago
  Oh, it was very conscious. I think the decision had been building up for some time, however, probably subconsciously. I first went back to eating fish for half a year (I was a pescatarian for five years before being a vegetarian) and when that seemed ok, I decided to eat any meat. This latter decision was even more deliberate as I had just moved out and no longer lived with someone who cooked delicious vegetarian stuff every day. I try to limit sugar these days, at least keeping it to one dessert a day. That was, I think, the main motivating factor. I'm in no way low-carb, but cutting out as much sugar, especially from non-dessert foods, has definitely been a huge win. Morally, my views have not changed at all. In my moral framework, my own needs always must come first. So nothing has changed morally and therefore, it hasn't been an actual problem. I'm not saying it was totally easy and that I didn't think a lot about it both before and after, but it has been quite beneficial to both my mind set and waistline so accepting it has been easy.

ChoGGi 10y ago

While I'm not technically a vegetarian (chicken stock on a fairly regular basis). I'm 35 and haven't eaten any meat/fish since I was about 12, saying a few months to a year doesn't sound like being a vegetarian. It seems more like trying out a vegetarian diet then anything else. Personally I just find the thought of eating meat disgusting, Though I could care less if anyone else around me eats it.

anotherevan 10y ago

Some of the comments about reducing meat consumption reminded me of a short TED talk about being a Weekday Vegetarian, which is pretty self explanatory. https://www.ted.com/talks/graham_hill_weekday_vegetarian https://www.ted.com/talks/graham_hill_weekday_vegetarian