15 ms·

The Case for Shyness

82 points by DLay 10y ago

emanreus 10y ago
Shyness is a mental disorder and a severe disadvantage.
- mack73 10y ago
  > Shyness is a mental disorder and a severe disadvantage. No, and not always. E.g. from my experience, many intelligent and beautiful women prefer the shy type over the boastful sales person becuase it signals you are a thinker and that you take nothing for granted. In that context, is shyness really a disadvantange? Many employers also think like that. But can shyness be a sign of a certain degree of imaturity? I think so, more than I subscribe to the idea it's a disorder. Do you suffer from it and beat yourself up because of your shyness? Then it's a problem, perhaps a small issue with your self-esteem. It can be fixed though. Just like almost anyone can learn math, almost all mental hickups can be fixed, if you have an interest in fixing them.
  - skocznymroczny 10y ago
    Woman don't prefer the shy types. Even if they claim they do. Masculinity is defined by assertiveness, aggression and confidence and it works like a nature's built-in override switch in women, even if they claim it doesn't.
    - jokoon 10y ago
      Generalities again. You can be shy and be confident and aggressive in how you think and live your life. Some women will be attracted to shy men because they are just less of a hurdle to flirt with. There are trends those days, maybe due to feminism, where women are taking more initiative in dating. Women are selectors by definition, so if we let them choose, it might be simpler and just better. Also women can end up hurt and bored by alpha males, and they will end up seeking simpler relationships.
      - mack73 10y ago
        "hurt and bored by alpha males" But we should give most alpha males a break, I think. They're as insecure as you are, probably. Most alpha males I know are quite fun to be around. You get to stand in line outside of clubs less. Always try to know at least an alpha male.
        jokoon 10y ago
        > But we should give most alpha males a break, I think. I don't have anything against alphas, I'm just saying some women might prefer a relationship that is less traditional and not oriented towards some masculine ideal. We are not hunter gatherer anymore. > They're as insecure as you are, probably. I don't really give a damn. They are millions ways to be dominant. > You get to stand in line outside of clubs less. Many women don't like to go to clubs or don't really care to enjoy those kind of privileges. > Always try to know at least an alpha male. Actually as a woman, being around an alpha male might actually prevent you from being approached by potential male partners. Unless you are determined to get your alpha male. I don't really buy into the whole alpha male thing anyway, which revolves around the winner/loser pragma, which is too cliched for modern times. Women yell about the whole patriarchy thing, I don't really believe in it, but I've heard a lot about groups of women who just settle for beta people because they are happy with it. So again, generalities.
    - mack73 10y ago
      "Masculinity is defined by..." Masculinity is not always prefered, at least not as the stongest trait in a person. Shyness to me signals curiosity, a person with a healthy dose of undecisiveness, someone still learning. It's attractive to be in a learning or growing phase. Me, personally, when it comes to women, I like them medium-shy.
    - JetSetWilly 10y ago
      Shyness is estimated to be a 40%-60% heritable trait. If it was an inherent massive disadvantage that women abhorred as you seem to suggest, then shy men simply would swiftly cease to exist. Yet they do exist, which suggests that actually it isn't some huge disadvantage, or that it has compensating advantages.
      - d33 10y ago
        You forgot one factor - you don't have to directly participate in reproduction to have your genes passed through. Otherwise, homosexuals would cease to exist as well. It's a bit more complex than that.
      - dagenleg 10y ago
        Hey, but what about shy women? If you include them into your calculations then your theory breaks down.
  - emanreus 10y ago
    I don't think it really matters what you call it, and I accept that you may feel differently about it. But in my own personal experience there's absolutely nothing good about shyness. It's crippling and it will make you, well... shy away from many good things in life. It is an emotional inadequacy and it will have a negative effect on your life. I'm sorry if someone was offended by my previous comment, that was not my intent.
bullsandabears 10y ago
In either the day-to-day or 'team-building' events, does anyone have office cultures with a consciously positive attitude to 'shy' people? I think the whole subtext and title of this article shows the ignorant extrovert's problem. The article is judging whether the extroverts should bestow their social acceptance on the introvert. Just because you are the only one talking does not mean there's nothing more to be said. And just because you are talking does not mean there is anything to be said. On the flipside, are there cultures that have disdain for unbridled extroversion and gossip? North America seems to revel in both those things but the biggest hits to company morale I've seen have always been from the 'outgoing' spreading their negativity through multiple separate conversations or steering meetings on downward spiral narratives.
- spangry 10y ago
  I've yet to encounter an office culture that makes accommodations for shy people. I think that in the absence of conscious effort to elicit or 'make space' for less extroverted people to express opinions and make observations, then traditional office workplaces are biased against against 'shy' people by default. I think that's rather unfortunate. It means that your company/division/whatever is missing out on roughly half the good insight and ideas collectively held by their workforce. I don't see it changing any time soon either. Every big change that I've seen in 'the way we work' always seems to favour the preferences of extroverts (bullpens, open-plan offices, hot-desking etc.). It seems that the world is run by extroverts, for extroverts.
  - Baeocystin 10y ago
    To be heard, one must expend effort. There is no way around it.
    - nine_k 10y ago
      Some people are paid to be heard, instead of spending their own effort on it. This depends on how valuable one's opinion is in the eyes of the people around. If you think that the high-class people you hired after a lot of sifting for the best-fitting candidates are really valuable, and may harbor interesting thoughts, maybe an effort should be exerted to get these opinions from them, in the way comfortable for them.
hn_throwaway_99 10y ago
As someone who has been shy his whole life, I'm becoming wary of these type of "shyness is a positive" and "introvert advantage" type articles (although to be clear, shyness and introversion are absolutely not the same thing). Being shy sucks, and I'm sick of attempts to sugar coat it. No matter how many ideas I may come up with in deep episodes of thought on my own, if I'm unable or unwilling to share them and convince others of their merits, they're lost in the loneliness of my own mind.
- sandworm101 10y ago
  Imho we need more shy people. Too many express every little detail of their lives. When a shy person speaks up you know they have put thought into what they are about to say. You take the shy person far more seriously than the twitter fanatic, every word more vapid than the last. If being shy makes you more careful with your words, that isn't a fault.
  - averagewall 10y ago
    That's alright for the other people but it's no use for the shy person themselves. They still won't get ahead like the extrovert who says a lot of crap and people like them for it.
  - ckarmann 10y ago
    I think you are confusing shyness and introversion. Introversion is when you don't feel the urge to talk, to act unless it's important or valuable. Shyness is when you want to talk, you want to act, you want to introduce yourself to that person, but you are unable to do it because anxiety kicks in. Actually the more thought you have put into what you want to say, the more it's important to you and the more emotionally involved you are, the more you are afraid to be misunderstood or rejected and the more you are likely to shut up. So a lot of shy people, when they get to talk, will often stay at the level of useless small talk because it feels safer. Western culture certainly values too much extroversion, it should certainly be more kind to shy people, but in my opinion shyness is not something to celebrate, it's really handicapping in a lot of matters important in life and it doesn't bring anything to anyone.
zby 10y ago
Online, where many people shed all their inhibitors, we can see the social value of shyness pretty well.
jokoon 10y ago
Shy men can be quite attractive for women who want to take initiative in dating. Or for the ones who want to test short relationships. I used to believe only men could do that kind of stuff, felt surprised, also felt some decent amount of hypocrisy and rejection from her part. In my view, women still have a lot to learn when it comes to taking initiative in dating. I've managed several times to be outgoing enough, to fake a sufficient amount of extroversion, but still be authentic. I don't know what I wanted to write next, but I just finish posting this comment.
moron4hire 10y ago
> But shyness can also be, Moran argues, a great gift, its impulse toward introversion allowing for the inventive thinking and creative genius that might elude the more talkatively inclined. Bullshit false dichotomy. Introversion has nothing to do with creativity. This is just a passive-aggressive jab towards healthy people that some introverts use to excuse not taking care of their depression.
- dan00 10y ago
  Sure, introverted people are unhealthy and even depressive. What else they should be! ROFL
- noxToken 10y ago
  I think you're right, but for the wrong reasons. Introversion does not mean that people have depression nor are unhealthy. Even if you were to exclude people who suffered from mental illness, the world would still include multitudes of personalities. This isn't to say that introversion and depression aren't correlated or confused for one another. They can share similarities. Some people value alone time, and some people like being in a place where they have more control over the situation. I lived with a guy who was as healthy as a horse. He was very physically fit, mentally sharp, ate well, and as far I know (we were pretty close) he was not mentally ill. We could watch movies, play games, and do whatever to the wee hours of the morning. We'd go get food and occasionally drinks, shoot ball, and we got into distance running for a while - things tough to get into while suffering depression. . Towards the end of the day, he just needed to crawl back into his cave. We could game together online, but that was the limit to his contact once he was spent. Introversion is not depression. It's a personality trait.
dagenleg 10y ago
Oh, I never knew that shy people bottle up so much repressed animosity towards the 'extroverts'. Whole thread is filled with wild generalizations about vapid, hollow, loud 'normies'. This is a bit ridiculous, come on - we should strive for a level of discourse that goes beyond 4chan-like lamentation about alpha-males taking all the good things for themselves.
- jokoon 10y ago
  Nah, I don't have any animosity towards extroverts. 4chan-ers generally want to crush social norms so that they can live a little. It sucks being unhappy because you are constantly being told you're at the bottom of the food chain and that would be an excuse for not deserving to have a soul mate, at least that what a community of losers would conclude. Personally, I just want women to forget their whole social prince charming hero and forget the whole father figure for a moment. There are many dating sites that empowers women and it's a good dynamic, many women try it and it gives them more room to breathe and pick. Maybe it's just targeted at new-age feminists. I just value female freedom. I just sense the world is so anti-social because money and status empowers men more that it empowers women. To me it's a coin with 2 sides, money and male influence in society. Women have to submit because they are not competitive by nature, and even if they have the right to vote and live an independent life, in a relationship, to me they don't really seem free because most of them want the prince charming. Women could make society a little more social and less compartmentalized if they would be given more room to have an influence on how society works. I could not really describe exactly why, but to me women are still very dependent on a relationship to have a fulfilling life. Men don't seem to really care about being in a relationship. I think I am wrong on most of what I write there.

82 points by DLay 10y ago

emanreus 10y ago

Shyness is a mental disorder and a severe disadvantage.

mack73 10y ago
> Shyness is a mental disorder and a severe disadvantage. No, and not always. E.g. from my experience, many intelligent and beautiful women prefer the shy type over the boastful sales person becuase it signals you are a thinker and that you take nothing for granted. In that context, is shyness really a disadvantange? Many employers also think like that. But can shyness be a sign of a certain degree of imaturity? I think so, more than I subscribe to the idea it's a disorder. Do you suffer from it and beat yourself up because of your shyness? Then it's a problem, perhaps a small issue with your self-esteem. It can be fixed though. Just like almost anyone can learn math, almost all mental hickups can be fixed, if you have an interest in fixing them.
- skocznymroczny 10y ago
  Woman don't prefer the shy types. Even if they claim they do. Masculinity is defined by assertiveness, aggression and confidence and it works like a nature's built-in override switch in women, even if they claim it doesn't.
  - jokoon 10y ago
    Generalities again. You can be shy and be confident and aggressive in how you think and live your life. Some women will be attracted to shy men because they are just less of a hurdle to flirt with. There are trends those days, maybe due to feminism, where women are taking more initiative in dating. Women are selectors by definition, so if we let them choose, it might be simpler and just better. Also women can end up hurt and bored by alpha males, and they will end up seeking simpler relationships.
    - mack73 10y ago
      "hurt and bored by alpha males" But we should give most alpha males a break, I think. They're as insecure as you are, probably. Most alpha males I know are quite fun to be around. You get to stand in line outside of clubs less. Always try to know at least an alpha male.
      - jokoon 10y ago
        > But we should give most alpha males a break, I think. I don't have anything against alphas, I'm just saying some women might prefer a relationship that is less traditional and not oriented towards some masculine ideal. We are not hunter gatherer anymore. > They're as insecure as you are, probably. I don't really give a damn. They are millions ways to be dominant. > You get to stand in line outside of clubs less. Many women don't like to go to clubs or don't really care to enjoy those kind of privileges. > Always try to know at least an alpha male. Actually as a woman, being around an alpha male might actually prevent you from being approached by potential male partners. Unless you are determined to get your alpha male. I don't really buy into the whole alpha male thing anyway, which revolves around the winner/loser pragma, which is too cliched for modern times. Women yell about the whole patriarchy thing, I don't really believe in it, but I've heard a lot about groups of women who just settle for beta people because they are happy with it. So again, generalities.
  - mack73 10y ago
    "Masculinity is defined by..." Masculinity is not always prefered, at least not as the stongest trait in a person. Shyness to me signals curiosity, a person with a healthy dose of undecisiveness, someone still learning. It's attractive to be in a learning or growing phase. Me, personally, when it comes to women, I like them medium-shy.
  - JetSetWilly 10y ago
    Shyness is estimated to be a 40%-60% heritable trait. If it was an inherent massive disadvantage that women abhorred as you seem to suggest, then shy men simply would swiftly cease to exist. Yet they do exist, which suggests that actually it isn't some huge disadvantage, or that it has compensating advantages.
    - d33 10y ago
      You forgot one factor - you don't have to directly participate in reproduction to have your genes passed through. Otherwise, homosexuals would cease to exist as well. It's a bit more complex than that.
    - dagenleg 10y ago
      Hey, but what about shy women? If you include them into your calculations then your theory breaks down.
- emanreus 10y ago
  I don't think it really matters what you call it, and I accept that you may feel differently about it. But in my own personal experience there's absolutely nothing good about shyness. It's crippling and it will make you, well... shy away from many good things in life. It is an emotional inadequacy and it will have a negative effect on your life. I'm sorry if someone was offended by my previous comment, that was not my intent.

bullsandabears 10y ago

In either the day-to-day or 'team-building' events, does anyone have office cultures with a consciously positive attitude to 'shy' people? I think the whole subtext and title of this article shows the ignorant extrovert's problem. The article is judging whether the extroverts should bestow their social acceptance on the introvert. Just because you are the only one talking does not mean there's nothing more to be said. And just because you are talking does not mean there is anything to be said. On the flipside, are there cultures that have disdain for unbridled extroversion and gossip? North America seems to revel in both those things but the biggest hits to company morale I've seen have always been from the 'outgoing' spreading their negativity through multiple separate conversations or steering meetings on downward spiral narratives.

spangry 10y ago
I've yet to encounter an office culture that makes accommodations for shy people. I think that in the absence of conscious effort to elicit or 'make space' for less extroverted people to express opinions and make observations, then traditional office workplaces are biased against against 'shy' people by default. I think that's rather unfortunate. It means that your company/division/whatever is missing out on roughly half the good insight and ideas collectively held by their workforce. I don't see it changing any time soon either. Every big change that I've seen in 'the way we work' always seems to favour the preferences of extroverts (bullpens, open-plan offices, hot-desking etc.). It seems that the world is run by extroverts, for extroverts.
- Baeocystin 10y ago
  To be heard, one must expend effort. There is no way around it.
  - nine_k 10y ago
    Some people are paid to be heard, instead of spending their own effort on it. This depends on how valuable one's opinion is in the eyes of the people around. If you think that the high-class people you hired after a lot of sifting for the best-fitting candidates are really valuable, and may harbor interesting thoughts, maybe an effort should be exerted to get these opinions from them, in the way comfortable for them.

hn_throwaway_99 10y ago

As someone who has been shy his whole life, I'm becoming wary of these type of "shyness is a positive" and "introvert advantage" type articles (although to be clear, shyness and introversion are absolutely not the same thing). Being shy sucks, and I'm sick of attempts to sugar coat it. No matter how many ideas I may come up with in deep episodes of thought on my own, if I'm unable or unwilling to share them and convince others of their merits, they're lost in the loneliness of my own mind.

sandworm101 10y ago
Imho we need more shy people. Too many express every little detail of their lives. When a shy person speaks up you know they have put thought into what they are about to say. You take the shy person far more seriously than the twitter fanatic, every word more vapid than the last. If being shy makes you more careful with your words, that isn't a fault.
- averagewall 10y ago
  That's alright for the other people but it's no use for the shy person themselves. They still won't get ahead like the extrovert who says a lot of crap and people like them for it.
- ckarmann 10y ago
  I think you are confusing shyness and introversion. Introversion is when you don't feel the urge to talk, to act unless it's important or valuable. Shyness is when you want to talk, you want to act, you want to introduce yourself to that person, but you are unable to do it because anxiety kicks in. Actually the more thought you have put into what you want to say, the more it's important to you and the more emotionally involved you are, the more you are afraid to be misunderstood or rejected and the more you are likely to shut up. So a lot of shy people, when they get to talk, will often stay at the level of useless small talk because it feels safer. Western culture certainly values too much extroversion, it should certainly be more kind to shy people, but in my opinion shyness is not something to celebrate, it's really handicapping in a lot of matters important in life and it doesn't bring anything to anyone.

zby 10y ago

Online, where many people shed all their inhibitors, we can see the social value of shyness pretty well.

jokoon 10y ago

Shy men can be quite attractive for women who want to take initiative in dating. Or for the ones who want to test short relationships. I used to believe only men could do that kind of stuff, felt surprised, also felt some decent amount of hypocrisy and rejection from her part. In my view, women still have a lot to learn when it comes to taking initiative in dating. I've managed several times to be outgoing enough, to fake a sufficient amount of extroversion, but still be authentic. I don't know what I wanted to write next, but I just finish posting this comment.

moron4hire 10y ago

> But shyness can also be, Moran argues, a great gift, its impulse toward introversion allowing for the inventive thinking and creative genius that might elude the more talkatively inclined. Bullshit false dichotomy. Introversion has nothing to do with creativity. This is just a passive-aggressive jab towards healthy people that some introverts use to excuse not taking care of their depression.

dan00 10y ago
Sure, introverted people are unhealthy and even depressive. What else they should be! ROFL
noxToken 10y ago
I think you're right, but for the wrong reasons. Introversion does not mean that people have depression nor are unhealthy. Even if you were to exclude people who suffered from mental illness, the world would still include multitudes of personalities. This isn't to say that introversion and depression aren't correlated or confused for one another. They can share similarities. Some people value alone time, and some people like being in a place where they have more control over the situation. I lived with a guy who was as healthy as a horse. He was very physically fit, mentally sharp, ate well, and as far I know (we were pretty close) he was not mentally ill. We could watch movies, play games, and do whatever to the wee hours of the morning. We'd go get food and occasionally drinks, shoot ball, and we got into distance running for a while - things tough to get into while suffering depression. . Towards the end of the day, he just needed to crawl back into his cave. We could game together online, but that was the limit to his contact once he was spent. Introversion is not depression. It's a personality trait.

dagenleg 10y ago

Oh, I never knew that shy people bottle up so much repressed animosity towards the 'extroverts'. Whole thread is filled with wild generalizations about vapid, hollow, loud 'normies'. This is a bit ridiculous, come on - we should strive for a level of discourse that goes beyond 4chan-like lamentation about alpha-males taking all the good things for themselves.

jokoon 10y ago
Nah, I don't have any animosity towards extroverts. 4chan-ers generally want to crush social norms so that they can live a little. It sucks being unhappy because you are constantly being told you're at the bottom of the food chain and that would be an excuse for not deserving to have a soul mate, at least that what a community of losers would conclude. Personally, I just want women to forget their whole social prince charming hero and forget the whole father figure for a moment. There are many dating sites that empowers women and it's a good dynamic, many women try it and it gives them more room to breathe and pick. Maybe it's just targeted at new-age feminists. I just value female freedom. I just sense the world is so anti-social because money and status empowers men more that it empowers women. To me it's a coin with 2 sides, money and male influence in society. Women have to submit because they are not competitive by nature, and even if they have the right to vote and live an independent life, in a relationship, to me they don't really seem free because most of them want the prince charming. Women could make society a little more social and less compartmentalized if they would be given more room to have an influence on how society works. I could not really describe exactly why, but to me women are still very dependent on a relationship to have a fulfilling life. Men don't seem to really care about being in a relationship. I think I am wrong on most of what I write there.