7 ms·
Turkey is sliding into dictatorship
- c3534l 10y agoThe problem is the vote has likely already been counted and any voting is just for an aura of legitimacy.
- gkya 10y agoWe take votes very serious here and there are multiple NGOs that are on top of things all around the country. I've once worked with CHP on an election day at a local office and can say that it's nearly impossible to do tricks in any elections.
- rdmsr 10y agoAll you need for constitutional reform is a 50% majority on a referendum. That seems way too easy.
- matt_wulfeck 10y agoTotally agree. Constitutional changes should be difficult by design.
- mavdi 10y agoSame saga with Brexit. 52% condemned the rest and the generations to come to political insanity.
- untog 10y agoA timely warning to the US, too - as more and more Senate votes are being decided by 50% majority rather than their traditional 2/3 (EDIT: sorry, 3/5). That both parties indulge in it should be worrying to everyone.
- aanm1988 10y agoThe US should worry more about the electoral college finally breaking down and allowing the minority to control the presidency. Should worry more about gerrymandering too.
- int_19h 10y agoWith Senate, the simple 50% majority is by design. That's consistent with most other bicameral parliaments out there, which also vote on a simple majority basis. Since the issues they can vote on are restricted by the Constitution, it's not really a big deal. The big deal is amending the Constitution itself, which is extremely difficult (if anything, probably more difficult than it should be).
- gdudeman 10y agoAdditionally, the Senate gives minority population states a vastly outsized vote. North Dakota and California get equal say. 50 Senators do not come close to representing 50% of the US population.
- hackuser 10y ago> Since the issues they can vote on are restricted by the Constitution, it's not really a big deal. I don't agree. The U.S. Senate is very powerful; those restrictions aren't very broad. > the simple 50% majority is by design It depends what you mean. The filibuster, which requires 60% majority, has been part of the Senate since around the 1840s; clearly many generations of Senators thought it was important and intended that it continue.
- aanm1988 10y agoYeah, but the republicans do what they want. Many probably thought the whole actually voting on supreme court nominees should continue.
- int_19h 10y agoThe filibuster was always removable by a simple majority, though, so it was a self-applied restriction, not an external one. Which limited its efficiency greatly - anyone relying on filibuster knew that if they pushed too hard, it would go away.
- gefh 10y agoSliding? More like rushing full throttle. Ataturk would be disgusted.
- upquark 10y agoWhat makes reddit and now HN think Ataturk was some sort of beacon of democracy? > In January 1920, Mustafa Kemal advanced his troops into Marash where the Battle of Marash ensued against the French Armenian Legion. The battle resulted in a Turkish victory alongside the massacres of 5,000–12,000 Armenians spelling the end of the remaining Armenian population in the region. He finished off the Cilician Armenians from Anatolia, whoever was left under French protection and had escaped the Genocide.
- jrez22 10y agoIt was war not genocide
- muse900 10y agoIt was a pure genocide!
- jrez22 10y agoalso THE ARMENIAN ALLEGATİONS AND FACTS
- dalys 10y agoWhich funnily enough returns this as the first result https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide_denial https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide_denial
- jrez22 10y ago"Say hi to Anatolia" go read it, always two sides to a story.
- 10y ago
- bpodgursky 10y agoI've read the Economist for a long time, and they should be ashamed of themselves for not calling out how wrong they were when Erdogan was first elected. Their line was that the AK's "moderate Islamism" would be good for democracy long-term, and anyone who was afraid of political Islam was regressive. Yeah, sometimes editors and opinion pieces are wrong. But admit it when you are -- I haven't seen the Economist staff learn anything from this sad episode.
- davidw 10y agoThey - at least for a time - regularly mentioned how wrong they'd gotten the invasion of Iraq. So they do that on occasion.
- bogomipz 10y agoTo be fair the Economist wasn't alone in a such optimistic proclamations surrounding Turkey's democracy in the region. Similar sentiment was coming out of Washington as well: http://edition.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/04/06/obama.turkey/ http://edition.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/04/06/obama.turkey/
- rz2k 10y agoWhat kind of turnover do they have at the Economist? The writing seems a lot like a student newspaper staffed by really smart people who have studied a year or two of economics or international relations.
- sdiq 10y agoI think Erdogan, the dictator, and 'moderate Islamism' as you quote, are two different things and we shouldn't conflate the two. If anything, his arch-nemesis, the US based Fethullah Gulen, is also an Islamist though of a different shade. Now, if this Gulen (if it is true he was behind the recently failed coup, or, otherwise) did manage to lead Turkey and ended up being different from Erdogan, when it comes to the dictatorial tendencies being overtly exhibited currently, Islamism, I think, wouldn't be the problem here but Erdogan, the individual.
- kolbe 10y ago
- TillE 10y agoThe only thing about this which surprises me is how Erdogan seemed to really want Turkey to become a member of the EU, and yet has been actively doing everything he can to make that impossible. Then again, he tends to say and do a lot of odd things, so I guess the simple answer is to not assume any kind of competence or rational thinking from political leaders.
- usrusr 10y agoDid he, or did he really just want to seem wanting to, to those who liked the idea? I could well imagine the EU question to be one of those topics where one group is fiercely convinced of their answer whereas the other is mostly close to undecided. In a situation like that the opportunistic course of action would be pretty clear.
- gkya 10y agoThe thing is today that's what goes with the base of AKP. Political leaders are never stupid, we sometimes believe so because they're doing things weird to us, while we are not who they care about at all. On the other hand, nobody really cares about Europe here nowadays, as in more than half a century all they've done is exploit and humiliate us. I, as a secular irreligious turkish citizen, don't want my government to allow that sort of thing no matter what, whichever party should the ruling one be.
- NicoJuicy 10y agoActually, I think your dead wrong. Watch what happens when you defriend Europe as a partner to your economy. We share a lot ( not the only country though), but if you attack us, we don't need to do anything... People just stop being interested in your country and your economy slips away. No outside Western investments and tourism anymore. I don't know if that's a good thing, but you shouldn't be happy with what Erdogan is doing... Wasn't the last line in a speech of Erdogan: Come visit Turkey. It means that he's scared for losing the benefit of being our friend. Now, I hope you like tourism being partially replaced with 'friendly' Russians :) + Exploiting Turkey? Got real proof? I know for sure Turkey had good economic growth because of the EU, not despite of the EU. Then again, we will know for sure in the coming 5 years of I'm right or wrong. Already Turkey is beginning to slip in negative economic growt and that's not our fault. Erdogan is alienating European civilians
- mkbhd_ 10y agoTime for some American intervention to restore "freedom" and "democracy" or is it too early yet?
- treehau5 10y agoThis is even more reason to contribute to activists trying to stop the conversion of Hagia Sophia into a Mosque. It is a piece of 6th century history that we as a civilization just cannot afford to lose.
- tdb7893 10y agoI thought it was already used as one? I don't particularly care what it's used for as long as it's generally open to the public, are they planning on closing it off to people or tearing it down or something?
- treehau5 10y agoIf anything it should be a Orthodox Church, but since no one can agree on that, it should be transferred to UNESCO, and treated as a cultural site and museum. If it resumes being used as a Mosque, to avoid any slippery slope fallacies, it will most likely result in a lot of the preservation of the historicity of the location being lost.
- tdb7893 10y agoI feel like it's use as a mosque is part of its history now. as long as they don't destroy any of the history it doesn't bother me that it is a mosque. EDIT: it's -> its
- acchow 10y agoThe West must not abandon Turkey Huh? So are we supposed to meddle in other countries' politics and government? Or are we not?
- kislakiruben 10y agoAren't we already doing this? Or are you being sarcastic?
- acchow 10y agoMy point was we get so much flak for doing this. But then sometimes we're "supposed" to do it? Which is it?
- soared 10y agoThis website is disgusting. I have to close four dialog boxes and the content takes is ~30% of my screen. I expected better from the economist.
- return0 10y ago"Let's make everything fixed, it will look SO good on small displays"
- nomercy400 10y agoNow I wonder, what will the NATO do when Turkey becomes a dictatorship.
- pmyteh 10y agoAlmost certainly nothing. NATO has had plenty of dictatorships as members, including Turkey during its various military takeovers.
- adrenalinelol 10y agoI suspect they'll beat around the issue. Most of the West's pertinent military conflicts are in the Middle East. Turkey's position makes it an extremely valuable ally and abdicating a significant strategic on moral grounds makes no military sense.
- hutzlibu 10y agoNothing, as long as he does not partner up with russia ...
- gkya 10y agoSo saddening the amount of ignorance and hate I see here in HN regarding my country. I wish nothing about Turkey gets submitted again here so that I can continue to visit HN as a hackers' and tech entrepreneurs' forum. You clearly don't know anything about our history. You don't even know who we are. You insult us with your superficial readings of superficial wikipedia articles. We don't need this at all. We're having hard times, but I still have hope. After all, civilisation was invented here. I wish we were able to export the better parts too.
- mediaman 10y agoComplaining that others don't know as much as an expert (you) isn't going to help change anyone's perspective. Most people's perspective about most subjects is superficial. The same can be said for you: you know very little about most people in most countries. If you want perspective changed, tell people what's wrong, or the real story, without hating on the people who could benefit from your expertise. Then your audience will know more. I think most people here would appreciate hearing your perspective (with much deeper knowledge of culture and history) on the current events.
- gkya 10y agoI don't really hate anybody. I don't believe in nations at all, if this means something to you. If it was misjudgements to be refuted, I'd go for it, even though I'm kind-of short on time. But it's mostly prejudice and hate-for-the-sake-of-it. I know that's rowing againt the flow, it's tiresome and gets you nowhere. (Edit: my actual point is that while I do know that there are many here that would actually appreciate my insights, as I'm a rather neutral and realist insider, knowing what the bulk of the responses I'll receive in return of such effort will be like, I just can't convince me to do that. Maybe I'm not modest enough to try and explain the reality in the face of belittling dismissals and ostinated misunderstandings.)
- amckenna 10y agoThe author of the article doesn't represent all western views any more than you represent Turkey. However, given the fact that we have a chance to interact here (thanks Internet!) tell me/us what you would like me/us to know about your country that you feel is being seen incorrectly. The best way to combat ignorance is through education.
- bobosha 10y agosliding?
- bailyun 10y agouniccshop ? http://www.uniccshop.cc http://www.uniccshop.cc
- bailyun 10y agoa good news , why do a lot of people uniccshop ? http://www.uniccshop.cc http://www.uniccshop.cc
- peregrix1 10y agoYeah, Turkey is sliding into dictatorship but Egypt is doing very well. http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21709955-belatedly-and-under-pressure-abdel-fattah-al-sisi-has-done-some-hard-necessary-things-two http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21709955-belatedly-and... http://www.economist.com/news/middle-east-and-africa/21709971-abdel-fattah-al-sisis-reforms-will-make-him-unpopular-can-he-stand-it-sense-and http://www.economist.com/news/middle-east-and-africa/2170997... Erdogan was "moderate" when "Western Democracies" was able to call a coup a coup and Syria wasn't a testing bed for weapons. It looks they need a smokescreen for the blunder in Europe, Syria and ME in general and with his figure Erdo-guy is the best candidate. Oh "The Sultan", "The Barbar Turk is at the gates", "figthing with the poor Kurds", "journalist jailer", "coup was a theater" etc. Did you really learn anything from the article about what changes in the constitution and what doesn't? According to the narrative Turkey was a "dictatorship" a year ago too, is a close "Yes" (or "No") in a referendum a typical political behavior of dictatorial politics, right? Sorry. When the West reacts like this (and doesn't react to real dictators unless they piss to their lawn), it more and more looks like Western intellectual's main mission is to create a narrative to open a path for exploitation/military politics. God may have died but "Deus Vult" still lives.